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Author Topic: Electric Motor Geenerator/alternator looped  (Read 76685 times)

Offline ARMCORTEX

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Re: Electric Motor Geenerator/alternator looped
« Reply #15 on: December 09, 2013, 01:39:09 AM »
did you all see the video I linked from the russian seller ? Disk size can be approximated by watching videos, I these people went and machined custom parts, more likely they took what was on hand. Something about rotoverter and modified inverter.

@ Webby, plz show us a video if you can.

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Re: Electric Motor Geenerator/alternator looped
« Reply #15 on: December 09, 2013, 01:39:09 AM »

Offline lumen

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Re: Electric Motor Geenerator/alternator looped
« Reply #16 on: December 09, 2013, 02:22:33 AM »
Webby,

If it was possible to rotate disk "A" by applying torque to "C", then we could just wind a spring and connect it to "C" and watch the disk "A" rotate forever because the spring would never unwind with "C" traveling a circular path but never itself rotating. (as long as "B" was stationary)

It would be interesting if you achieved something different using the gear setup because pondering that configuration, I was wondering if it achieves the same goal but using different force directions.

Applying a torque to "C" with "B" stationary, only applies a force in disk "A" from the center point of "B" to the center point of "C".




Offline lumen

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Re: Electric Motor Geenerator/alternator looped
« Reply #17 on: December 09, 2013, 05:38:23 AM »
Webby,

I like the bola and the hatchet, it's like art only scary.

It does look more like a gravity experiment than what I am thinking here.
You are right that a spring connection between disk "A" and sprocket "C" will turn the disk "A" until the spring unwinds, but nothing should connect to disk "A"
from any of the sprockets "B" or "C".

The view that rotating "C" from "A" will turn the disk backwards, you are really turning "A" from stationary sprocket "C", because "C" cannot turn with "B" stationary.
In any case, I was meaning that the spring was applying a torque to sprocket "C" from an external point not connected to disk "A".
This is the confusing part, the chain is not connected to disk "A" in any way.

I'm still not seeing a problem, when disk "A" is rotating, it is only following sprocket "C" with it's weight attached. If sprocket "B" stops then sprocket "C" starts rotating the same as if it was winding up the chain around a pole on stationary sprocket "B".







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Re: Electric Motor Geenerator/alternator looped
« Reply #17 on: December 09, 2013, 05:38:23 AM »
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Offline TinselKoala

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Re: Electric Motor Geenerator/alternator looped
« Reply #18 on: December 09, 2013, 07:40:35 AM »
At least now you don't have to worry about leaks!


Offline lumen

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Re: Electric Motor Geenerator/alternator looped
« Reply #19 on: December 09, 2013, 05:29:44 PM »
Indeed TK,, no leaks, and at this time of the year no freezing solid :)

@lumen

Where do you see the torque from the arm being expressed?

I see it being expressed into the belt or chain going around "B" and then with the other "C" providing an equal and opposite force I see no torque left over.

Here is a pic of a crude spring testbed I did a while ago,, in the junction of the two arms is a spring that connects the two arms together,, so the one arm can be rotated and wind the spring up.  This was to test for the transfer of the spring potential created by the one arm into the other,, the testbed was mounted in several different orientations and stuff, the question was if one arm could tension the spring and be held at a constant value and still create a motion in the other arm.  It did not manage to do that, if I kept moving the input arm with force, some of that force was transferred but that took an input force being moved over a distance.

Exactly!

You have it, with no motion or distance traveled, no work is done. That is why placing a torque on "C" cannot rotate "A" even though "C" is free to move around, it still does not rotate and no work can be done.

Now, all the centrifugal force from the weights are trying to rotate the center sprocket "B".

So we allow "B" to rotate at the same rate as disk "A" and now "C" and "B" are stationary to each other so still no work is done, But actually "B" is now rotating with this huge torque from the weights on "C", and needs to be restrained to rotate only as fast as disk "A" is rotating.

So we can load it down with a generator.

In the end, those are the two conditions for no work on disk "A"

1: sprocket "B" is stationary
2: sprocket "B" rotates with disk "A"


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Re: Electric Motor Geenerator/alternator looped
« Reply #19 on: December 09, 2013, 05:29:44 PM »
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Offline e2matrix

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Re: Electric Motor Geenerator/alternator looped
« Reply #20 on: December 09, 2013, 06:04:04 PM »
Hi People.
 
I have been a long time lurker on this site and others.  I have extensive background in electrical/mechanical engineering and hold 9 patents in this field,  so i am not some over excited child.  I spend much of my time in my fully equipped shop building, tinkering, looking for the next big thing.  I fully understand the laws and workings when it comes to this type of thing.  It does not work!  can not work!  That being said...
 
For some reason there are many recent videos and news articles popping up from all over this planet talking about looped motor generator combinations functioning with power to spare.  Many of these are from legitimate inventors or companies.  many with no battery.  This is not like the usual YouTube video of a magnet motor or some other junk followed by hype, replications and failure.  There are too many separate occurrence,  this feels different.  Is it possible that maybe a certain alignment of phase angles or some other anomaly could unlock something so simple that we have just never looked at it?  All of the sciences have been wrong from time to time.  This one has too many legit people and is too spread out to be like the other 99.999% of impossible claims...
 
Anyone around here spend any time looking at this?  [size=-3]


Exactly my feeling for some time.   You said it almost exactly the way I would describe it.   It's been going on for quite a long while too.   

Offline lumen

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Re: Electric Motor Geenerator/alternator looped
« Reply #21 on: December 09, 2013, 11:03:29 PM »
Just thinking this out.

I see that if the arms were straight out and "B" offered no resistance and the system were brought up to speed, then I would need to apply a force into "B" to rotate the arms back 90 degrees, and it is this force you are talking of.

You are correct, this force will be equal to the centrifugal force required to retract the weighted arms due to the rotation of "A"

Quote
When I think about that, what I see is a force of pull on the belt\chain from "B" to "C" and that force is not through the center-line of the axle for "A" to the center-line axle for "C" and as such represents a force in the opposite direction of rotation to "A" and will slow down "A".

This is not correct! the force is only from the center of "B" to the center of "C". If the sprockets are the same size then the line of force is directly inline with the centers. Different size sprockets can cause an angle to the force vector.  Disk "A" cannot see the pulling on the chain, only the compression between centers because neither "B" or "C" has a torque connected to "A"

Quote
Likewise I see that if I tried to apply the force on "B" to rotate the arms on "C" the other way, advance them, then that force would try and accelerate "A".

This is the mystical question, because if "A" was rotating, then applying a forward torque on "B" would still rotate the arms back in which would increase the RPM on "A" this would cause the arms to want to move back out where they would pull in again further increasing the RPM on "A". The question is, is it really driving it. Suppose you apply 500 HP to sprocket "B" while I hold disk "A" stationary with my hands! Oh yes sprocket "C" will rotate with the weights, but is it driving "A"?
Quote

I just stepped over the change in angular velocity and momentum and stuff and went straight to the constant state conditions,, of course when you first retard the weights that reduction in radius will impart a force of acceleration against the axle of "C" but that stops when the new constant state is reached.

So what I see is that there are more than one lever, the offset from axle of the gears\pulleys to the chain\belt creates the other levers and you are always pulling backwards on the new one on "C" from "B".


What value of resistance that makes I am not sure of, maybe someone with a better understanding and knowledge could point that piece out.

So work is being done on and by "B" using the input from "C" created by a rotating "A"

I could be wrong,, I usually am.

This setup contains some illusionary properties so the final result should be considered the worst case and deemed that it doesn't work until shown otherwise.

I do plan to build a test device to define the final results, but for now, on to the next design that is less entwined in doubt.


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Re: Electric Motor Geenerator/alternator looped
« Reply #21 on: December 09, 2013, 11:03:29 PM »
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Offline lumen

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Re: Electric Motor Geenerator/alternator looped
« Reply #22 on: December 10, 2013, 01:45:11 AM »
The chain is pulling on the sprocket, that has a distance from pivot.  The weight is pulling on the end of the arm, that has a distance from pivot.  The chain going to "B" is pulling on the mid area of an arm, that then has the lever action being applied between the weight and the pivot\axle for "C" with the chain as the fulcrum point, so the lever is trying to push the axle of "C" back in while the weight is trying to fling outward while a mid-point on the lever is being restrained by the chain.

Clear as mud :)

I bet this is not so clear as you perceive it is.
Let me make a sketch to change your view.

Offline lumen

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Re: Electric Motor Geenerator/alternator looped
« Reply #23 on: December 10, 2013, 02:27:36 AM »
So we can have sprocket "B" as a solid stationary block, which it is when it cannot rotate.

Then disk "A" can be viewed as a solid bar with pivot points on each end.

The chain is still just a chain and can only provide a pulling action.

As you can see, disk "A" can only feel the compression forces from the center of "C" to the center of "B".
The chain can exert no pull on disk "A" because it's never connected to "A".

If there was any force angle vector then "A" would rotate from the weight and in effect raise the weight doing work for free.




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Re: Electric Motor Geenerator/alternator looped
« Reply #23 on: December 10, 2013, 02:27:36 AM »
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Offline lumen

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Re: Electric Motor Geenerator/alternator looped
« Reply #24 on: December 10, 2013, 03:56:30 AM »
Well lets move on to the next design and see if we can find the reason why it cannot work.

Suppose the two disks marked "A" are connected with some notch belt or chain drive and rotate together.

There are two rotating platforms mounted on each disk "A" with a connecting rod "B" that keeps them from rotating. (see animation)
The generators "C" are mounted on these platforms that remain stationary and each has a weight "D" to rotate the shaft of the generator from the centrifugal force generated by rotating "A"

If the generator did not turn, then the weight simply would appear to be just another part of the connecting arm "B" and follow the arm around the wheel.


Offline lumen

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Re: Electric Motor Geenerator/alternator looped
« Reply #25 on: December 10, 2013, 05:10:41 PM »
I keep things as simple as I can when I am trying to figure stuff out, and to do that I include, in your drawing, the virtual arm that goes from the axle of "A" straight out to the CoM of the weight, this is the force that the weight brings to the system.

This virtual arm then has an angle to both the "A" "C" arm and the "B" "C" chain arm, this force tries to pull "B" forward in the direction of rotation but also tries to pull "A" backwards, fine so you reverse the direction of rotation so now it is trying to pull "A" forward but now it is trying to pull "B" backwards.

This is the resistance to rotation I am seeing, and to what extent that force is, I am not sure of.

The chain is never connected to "A" in a way that it can detect any pull.
If you rotated "B" and raised the weight, would "A" rotate, No
If you rotated "B" and lowered the weight, would "A" rotate, No
If you remove the weight or add to the weight, No
If you cut the chain, No (maybe wiggle)
If you remove the weight and apply a rod to the center of "C" and rotate it, does "A" move, No

Because "A" can only see the center to center force of "B" to "C".
The chain is independent of "A" on both ends and can have no effect.

I'm not saying this works, but whatever prevents it from working would also prevent concept 2 from working also and it has no mystical properties.
To make a guess, I would think it has more to do with the direction of the artificial gravity. All gravitational vectors on the rotating system come from the center point.
The location of the weight has a different vector than the pivot point of the weight, and may cause a percentage of back drag in all systems like this. Though this could be reduced by keeping the arm short and using a larger weight.


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Re: Electric Motor Geenerator/alternator looped
« Reply #25 on: December 10, 2013, 05:10:41 PM »
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Offline tim123

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Re: Electric Motor Geenerator/alternator looped
« Reply #26 on: December 10, 2013, 06:56:41 PM »
Hi Guys,
  I thought it through, and I'm quite sure the back-force does get transmitted back to wheel A. Diagram attached.

You have to think about where the tension in the chain is...

Getting back to the topic... ;)

There are plenty of machines in Stirling's QMoGen page. None of which have been validated (as far as I know):
http://peswiki.com/index.php/Directory:Motor-Generator_Self-Looped_with_Usable_Energy_Left_Over

Are any of them genuine?

Offline lumen

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Re: Electric Motor Geenerator/alternator looped
« Reply #27 on: December 10, 2013, 10:34:29 PM »
tim123,

I like the sketch with the forces as one would expect them to be. But the problem is that just rotating or applying a torque to "C" does not rotate "A".

You can apply torque until the chain breaks on "C" and "A" still cannot rotate!

This is the same setup as a floating shelf. All of the force is transferred to the stationary center sprocket and none to the rotation of "A"

Though I believe what you have drawn is close because if you draw a line from the center of "A" to the weight, I believe that to be the gravitational vector to the weight and thus the amount of pulling back on "A".

Any other force on "A", simply does not exist.

As far as the QMoGens go, I only seen one that I thought may have been real, and it used some artificial gravity torque increasing device. (not simple gearing)

That's why this is the most important part required in order to build a QMoGen unit from off the shelf parts.

QMoGen stories have been around for years and nothing comes from them. Now there are more stories because everyone thinks all you need is a motor and generator and some inverter unit to build it and it works.

Many make big claims before they even build it, then once the do, you never hear from them again. If it worked, someone would be selling them or the plans.
When you go to Stirling's QmoGen page, you can read the double talk, Phase angle, power factor, resonance, none of which can produce real power to run anything! They are either hiding their idea or covering up the facts.

Torque increasing device! Real or not.  Centrifugal force increases with RPM at very little cost.



Offline ingyenenergiagep

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Re: Electric Motor Geenerator/alternator looped
« Reply #28 on: December 11, 2013, 12:01:17 AM »
It works. I saw in old russian video.

When the weight turn 90 degree in outside, the table (A circe) turn in opposite direction.
Turn with constant speed, the A circle turn-stop-turn-stop-turn-stop.
The rocket can turn around in the space without any fuel burning.

Offline lumen

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Re: Electric Motor Geenerator/alternator looped
« Reply #29 on: December 11, 2013, 01:38:45 AM »
Yes Lumen, you are correct,, no matter how hard or fast I turn "B" it will not turn "A",, that is until you put the weight on the arm, now when you turn "B" you are accelerating that weight and that interaction is what will move "A" by pushing on "C" which is attached to "A" via the axle.

If you have a playground handy with a merry-go-round and you have say a 10lbs weight you can go try this without building anything.

Take a friend with you, each stand on opposite sides of the merry-go-round and with the weight in your arm held out straight and your feet firmly planted on the merry-go-round rotate at the waist to throw the ball across the merry-go-round to your friend and have them catch it in the opposite hand you threw it with,, again with there feet firmly planted on the merry-go-round.

I figure 10lbs is enough to get it rotating for you,, so the ball is thrown from the same hand by each person and caught with the opposite hand.

I am not sure how real these QMoGens are,, I have seen some massive over readings on my meters using a motor, a belt, a flywheel and an oscillating load, when the belt slips and grabs,, and stretches and stuff,, up to 10X the readings,, well it was a DC motor and the massive readings were AC,,  BUT, was there actually more power consumed or anything from that that could be converted?? that is more like TK's area :)

Now your getting into another entire area. Driving "B" with the intent of rotating "A".  But if that was possible then driving "A" with the intent of driving "B" would also work. The question is does it actually do that?

The merry go round concept is a bit different in that you are saying that if you put a track on "A" like a figure 8, and move a ball through the track, then disk "A" will rotate.  Doing this by hand is not a valid experiment since you can make a merry go round move with only one person standing on it and twisting and jumping. I doubt either one would work in space.


If driving "B" would make "A" turn in space, then what are you standing on to turn "B"......."A"?


I don't see why everyone here is missing the point. The idea is to move a platform in a circular path to generate an artificial gravity that would be rotating if you were standing on that platform. Then, just build a weighted wheel on that platform and let it generate power. How hard is that?



 

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