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Author Topic: Electric Motor Geenerator/alternator looped  (Read 76688 times)

Offline rice

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Electric Motor Geenerator/alternator looped
« on: December 07, 2013, 02:59:37 AM »
Hi People.
 
I have been a long time lurker on this site and others.  I have extensive background in electrical/mechanical engineering and hold 9 patents in this field,  so i am not some over excited child.  I spend much of my time in my fully equipped shop building, tinkering, looking for the next big thing.  I fully understand the laws and workings when it comes to this type of thing.  It does not work!  can not work!  That being said...
 
For some reason there are many recent videos and news articles popping up from all over this planet talking about looped motor generator combinations functioning with power to spare.  Many of these are from legitimate inventors or companies.  many with no battery.  This is not like the usual YouTube video of a magnet motor or some other junk followed by hype, replications and failure.  There are too many separate occurrence,  this feels different.  Is it possible that maybe a certain alignment of phase angles or some other anomaly could unlock something so simple that we have just never looked at it?  All of the sciences have been wrong from time to time.  This one has too many legit people and is too spread out to be like the other 99.999% of impossible claims...
 
Anyone around here spend any time looking at this?  [size=-3]

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Offline lumen

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Re: Electric Motor Geenerator/alternator looped
« Reply #2 on: December 07, 2013, 05:33:16 AM »
Hi rice,
I have a very similar background and I must say that I see no difference in 99.99% of these claims to all the other junk claims that come along.
With an electrical background you would already know that claims like phase anomaly and phase angle and resonance are just bunk claims made from those without understanding.
 
With that being said, I have seen some motor-generator combinations that provide excess power and appear they may be real.
Of the ones that actually appear to operate, there is always a roberval balanced flywheel that directs angular momentum to increase the drive torque to the generator. This is something that is just now showing up in some other threads also.
 
A roberval configuration has the ability to remove the back torque from the generator from reaching the drive motor so the motor can be much smaller than what would normally be required to drive the generator.
 
I have been looking at several other ways that roberval configurations can be used and have concluded that many different OU devices may be possible using this setup.
 :o
 
 
 

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Electric Motor Geenerator/alternator looped
« Reply #2 on: December 07, 2013, 05:33:16 AM »
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Dave45

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Re: Electric Motor Geenerator/alternator looped
« Reply #3 on: December 07, 2013, 04:42:48 PM »
Campbell claimed overunity years ago
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fgk0HfXhU9M

Offline lumen

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Re: Electric Motor Geenerator/alternator looped
« Reply #4 on: December 07, 2013, 06:46:00 PM »
Not just a flywheel, but a roberval system.
Let me explain a simple system as in this pic.
 
Suppose we drive only wheel "A", with the chain sprockets "B" and "C" able to rotate on their own bearings attached to wheel "A"
 
There are three possible conditions for sprocket "B"
 
1: Sprocket "B" is held stationary and prevented from rotating.
In this state, the weighted arms will remain in the same orientation as wheel "A" turns but the drive on wheel "A" sees no additional load. The force on the connecting chain from "B" to "C" will be changing as the centrifugal forces change direction on the weights, but wheel "A" feels only the rotating mass of the weights.
 
2: Sprocket "B" is attached to wheel "A" and rotates with it.
In this configuration, wheel "A" is simply a flywheel and responds the same as condition one. Wheel "A" spins freely.
 
3: Sprocket "B" is attached to a generator.
 
With sprocket "B" driving a generator, you can see that if the generator turns freely, it will be the same as condition two, and if the generator was loaded until it stopped, it would be the same as condition one. Neither condition one or two can place additional load on wheel "A".
 
Now, one can also see that increasing the mass of the weights or rotating wheel "A" faster, will increase the drive force on sprocket "B" but additional load on sprocket "B", cannot prevent wheel "A" from rotating the same as a simple flywheel.
 
The drive force on sprocket "B" is derived only from the centrifugal force of the weights, independently of the torque applied to wheel "A".
 

 
 

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Electric Motor Geenerator/alternator looped
« Reply #4 on: December 07, 2013, 06:46:00 PM »
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Offline rice

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Re: Electric Motor Geenerator/alternator looped
« Reply #5 on: December 08, 2013, 03:32:59 AM »
Thanks for the link Dave,  looks like Luc is hard at work.  Not sure if this will get him anywhere or not.  Hopefully his Long hours will pay off for him.  Power factor can easily play tricks on people.

Lumen,  I agree with what you say about resonance and the other hocus pocus.  Probably will never amount to anything.  Your flywheel idea might have some promise.  I just can't get over the fact that these motor generators are coming from legit people and companies from all corners of the world.  This is not a normal pattern when it comes to something that can not work.  I have spent time working on MW motor generators used in underground mines to run Huge DC motors.  I seem to remember these set ups to be efficient but obviously not overunity.  Never crossed my mind at the time to do the math.

Have a look at US 7,095,126.  It is not common for the USPTO to entertain such an idea.  Has this been attempted or discussed here?  It is an old one.

Offline lumen

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Re: Electric Motor Geenerator/alternator looped
« Reply #6 on: December 08, 2013, 04:42:25 AM »
rice,

The patent doesn't mean much. There are many patents that make even bigger claims.
If you could just purchase off the shelf parts and build such a system then they would be everywhere for sale already. The fact that they are not indicates the result.

I have seen some try nearly this exact setup using an inverter and battery, and in the end they leave the battery connected and say it is charging when in fact it's going dead.

All the parts to build a test system would not cost much. At some point I plan to build a torque increaser and test the entire concept.





Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Electric Motor Geenerator/alternator looped
« Reply #6 on: December 08, 2013, 04:42:25 AM »
Sponsored links:





Offline tim123

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Re: Electric Motor Geenerator/alternator looped
« Reply #8 on: December 08, 2013, 03:54:47 PM »
Hi People.
 ...I spend much of my time in my fully equipped shop building, tinkering, looking for the next big thing.

Anyone around here spend any time looking at this?

Hi Rice :)
  yes, I'm interested in this stuff too... It seems to good to be true, so it probably is, but fun to try - and who knows...

I've a small collection of motors, and I'm considering building a central flywheel / gearbox to attach them to - so I can try different motors / ratios etc.

I've tried linking two 3-phase motors together 'rotoverter' style last year - I got about 60w out for 100w in...

Have you done any tinkering on this yet?



Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Electric Motor Geenerator/alternator looped
« Reply #8 on: December 08, 2013, 03:54:47 PM »
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Offline rice

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Re: Electric Motor Geenerator/alternator looped
« Reply #9 on: December 08, 2013, 06:40:17 PM »
Hi Tim,  I have not been tinkering with anything energy related lately,  trying to finish up 2 big projects that have been on the go for too long.  I am trying to decide what my next project can be.  I would never have thought to waste my time by using an electric motor to turn a generator.  It is just too strange that all of these claims are happening now.  Like lumen said,  if it actually worked everyone would be dong it.  I think I'm going to give it some more time.  There are probably many people building these setups as we speak. Once my big projects are done and out the door I will probably at least clamp down a motor and spin an alternator and see where it takes me.

Offline tim123

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Re: Electric Motor Geenerator/alternator looped
« Reply #10 on: December 08, 2013, 07:02:09 PM »
Hi Rice :)
  Here's some info on 'connective physics' - which might relate to this subject - if not it's still interesting. It's all about how all things in the universe ar connected - and inertia is one outcome. Another concept is 'critical action time' - which modifies the newtownian force equations - and allows for OU:
http://www.halexandria.org/dward137.htm

I rather disagree with the assertion that "if it worked everyone would be doing it"... The wisdom of the herd is a well known oxymoron... I mean, most people actually believe government is lawful, and that banks lend out their money. Lol...  ::)

Still, it'll be interesting to see if any of these Q-mo-gen's (as Stirling calls 'em) take off / go public with plans etc... I'll slowly work on building one, just for the crack, amongst my other projects...

Regards
Tim

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Electric Motor Geenerator/alternator looped
« Reply #10 on: December 08, 2013, 07:02:09 PM »
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Offline tim123

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Re: Electric Motor Geenerator/alternator looped
« Reply #11 on: December 08, 2013, 07:31:43 PM »
Not just a flywheel, but a roberval system.
Let me explain a simple system as in this pic....

Hi Lumen :)
  that is a very interesting design, and it's really stretching my tiny brain... :D

Have you simulated it, or built it?

Regards
Tim

PS: I think the back-force will be transmitted from the load via the chains to the 'C' wheels - to their bearings - to the outside of wheel 'A'...

Offline lumen

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Re: Electric Motor Geenerator/alternator looped
« Reply #12 on: December 08, 2013, 08:11:59 PM »
Tim,

I know the brain thing, it's almost like an illusion that you think you have figured out but then not.

The real effect is simply to create a platform on a rotating disk that remains stationary as it moves around the disk. This platform will experience a rotational gravity that would be very easy to extract energy from.

If you were on the disk, you could just build a gravity wheel, but instead of trying to move the weights to get it to rotate (like people try now) you could just put all the weight on one side and have the gravity rotate.

A roberval system removes torque and should work well to generate the stationary platform without inducing any torque back into the main disk.

There are other ways to achieve the same setup, so I can't see how this could fail and this puts me in the same boat as you, brain strain!

I have done some motion simulations in another thread but they are only motion simulations and return no useful data.





Offline lumen

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Re: Electric Motor Geenerator/alternator looped
« Reply #13 on: December 08, 2013, 10:32:55 PM »
There is a force imparted by the generator into "A"

I spent a while playing with something very similar to this and found that the CASE torque indeed supplied a reactive force into whatever was moving it.

This CASE torque by the way did not need to have an outside force it was "pushing" against per-say.  I isolated the source of resistance and only allowed the shaft torque to be the influence so any force from the motor, in my case for testing, that the case imparted was from the torque alone.

I actually always wondered if there was a reaction as such since the case is both pushing and pulling,  my tests showed that there was a reaction.


If that is true then one could cause "A" to rotate by applying a torque on the "C" sprockets.

Before we move on to the next design that totally eliminates the proposed problem, we should try to fully understand why or how a load on "B" could slow disk "A".

Lets suppose that while the weights are held outward by centrifugal force that by slowing the rotation of sprocket "B" that it does cause disk "A" to slow.

This would logically seem possible since in reverse you are locking the "C" sprockets to the rotating disk "A" by the centrifugal force on the weights.
But in reality, slowing the rotation of "B" pulls only on the weights and causes a partial retraction. The retraction of the weights tries to conserve angular momentum as the radius gets shorter and causes disk "A" to rotate faster. The same as a skater pulling in their arms during a spin or like a weight on a rope wrapping around a pole and causing the radius to get shorter and spin faster.

Having done so, maybe you can explain what you believe causes the disk "A" to experience a slowing from increased drag on "B".









Offline lumen

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Re: Electric Motor Geenerator/alternator looped
« Reply #14 on: December 08, 2013, 11:16:20 PM »
Well, my testbed sure did move with only the torque from the motor,, so I would say yes.

Maybe you could show your test better so we can see how it applies to this device.
Are you saying you spun up a similar device and experienced some moving forces on the entire unit?

 

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