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Author Topic: Super simple way to see proof Pseudo Solid principle works using ring magnets  (Read 69314 times)

Offline MarkE

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@Gammarayburst

Here is a rough outline of a measureing process.

It would be up to you  to decide on which or
what Psuedo Solid operations to measure, as well
as the specifics of magnets types, steel bar sizes
and so on.

Please find the attached file P S measureing.PDF

                             cheers
                               floor
The procedure measures forces not energies.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy


Offline Floor

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@GammaRayBurst

Looking at the third page of the PDF (which is a side view) of the exemplary
measuring device.  Adding weight to the pulley string would at some point
pull the first bar away from the second bar (which is the bar between the magnets)
in the line of bars. (notice that the second bar is illustrated as being pinned with
a screw (see the second drawing).(You could pin / clamp it some other way)

It takes essentially the same amount of force to pull the first bar away from the
rest of the bars,  as the force put out (during an attraction of the first bar)  if it
were approaching / being attracted to the other bars / magnet set in stead of being
pulled away. 

However, measuring only the the force (weight ) required to INITIALLY pull the
first bar from the rest will show only the peak force.  We need show the force of
the magnetic attraction as it is dropping off with distance. A set of measurements
at increasing distances (between first and second bars) is needed to do this. This
SET of measurements can give a very good approximation of the WORK OUT PUT.

But you will be measureing the out put "back wards",,, so to speak. 

There is an error (at least one) in my drawings / explanations, in that the first
measurement of the above interaction, should be done with out a spacer between
the first and second bars. (the very first).

                     Cheers
                           floor

Offline gammarayburst

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My thoughts on a Pseudo Solid test fixture
« Reply #92 on: February 18, 2015, 04:25:36 AM »
I believe an opposite poles attraction set up with a closed magnetic loop is the best approach for a test fixture to prove that it takes far less work to reset the magnets than the work you get out by the cycling bar shown in the attached drawing. The magnets would need to be in a block of Teflon and the poles recessed .005" at each end of the magnets. The block would be is very slight sliding contact with the polished surface of the bars. The fixture could also be configured in a linear fashion for testing. I can not express how important it is that this Teflon block movement be as friction free as possible and the magnet poles in the block be recessed as close to .005" inch at each end of each magnet.
Thanks, Butch LaFonte

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

My thoughts on a Pseudo Solid test fixture
« Reply #92 on: February 18, 2015, 04:25:36 AM »
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Offline gammarayburst

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@GammaRayBurst

Looking at the third page of the PDF (which is a side view) of the exemplary
measuring device.  Adding weight to the pulley string would at some point
pull the first bar away from the second bar (which is the bar between the magnets)
in the line of bars. (notice that the second bar is illustrated as being pinned with
a screw (see the second drawing).(You could pin / clamp it some other way)

It takes essentially the same amount of force to pull the first bar away from the
rest of the bars,  as the force put out (during an attraction of the first bar)  if it
were approaching / being attracted to the other bars / magnet set in stead of being
pulled away. 

However, measuring only the the force (weight ) required to INITIALLY pull the
first bar from the rest will show only the peak force.  We need show the force of
the magnetic attraction as it is dropping off with distance. A set of measurements
at increasing distances (between first and second bars) is needed to do this. This
SET of measurements can give a very good approximation of the WORK OUT PUT.

But you will be measureing the out put "back wards",,, so to speak. 

There is an error (at least one) in my drawings / explanations, in that the first
measurement of the above interaction, should be done with out a spacer between
the first and second bars. (the very first).

                     Cheers
                           floor
Let me think tomorrow on this and get back to you. Butch

Offline Floor

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@GammaRayBurst

For sure contemplate it.   It's your baby, and of course you may
proceede as you like.

The whole process of measuring and so on is NOT something I am
an expert on in regrd to magnet forces.  But it is some thing I intend to
become a master of eventually. The process of determining the ratios of the
forces will not tell us the power available (power being the ratio of work to time)

But  the ratios of work in to work out (before losses such as friction and
acceleration against inertia) will be the same as the ratio of power in to
power out (Maybe)?

The attractions may behave close to prediction arrived at by applying  the inverse
square law.  I would be interested to see if they do or not.  Dieter may have some
valuable input in this area.

I'm attaching a JPG file on inverse square.  It's part of a study / project I've been
working on.  It's a draft and may contain errors.

                enjoy
                best wishes
                floor

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

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Offline gammarayburst

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Real Simple Fixture
« Reply #95 on: February 19, 2015, 09:08:00 PM »
See attached

Offline Floor

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Ok  Butch

Let me think about it, and get back to you.
                   cool
                    floor

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

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Offline mscoffman

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I believe that an interesting approach to solving friction problems would be
the use of; ~ small captive spherical sapphire ball bearings ~ arranged is 120
degree pattern on the face of the magnets. I believe friction and magnetic loading
problems will then become nearly nonexistent when used with boundary support.

:S:MarkSCoffman

Offline Floor

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@ Gammaray Burst
 
Because  we can / are able to measure the work alone, we
can largly ignore the friction and other losses at this point.

We can make measurements of the work alone.  And assign reasoned
/ reasonable approximations of what the friction and losses are.  AND / OR
there are also ways to measure the actual friction losses in the tests. 
Then subtract these from the "gain".  Later though.

With out a rotory or cycling device actual power would be difficult to assess.

Doesn't matter though. 

Simpley showing an accurate work in to work out ratio is a huge step forward.
A ratio of say 1.3 : 1 might indicate a working device.
A ratio of 1.5 : or 2 : 1 would be fantastic !

Reducing friction in the tests IS desireable.  If Teflon coating is easy enough then
go ahead with it. However, a litle oil or grease in the right places might be all that is needed
for the tests.

Saphire spheres sounds awsome for a future cycleing device.

The attached PDF (L F meas 1.pdf) Has some notes / drawings for you to consider / modify /
through out  so on.

These are just a start, as  there are a lot more details to cover.

                           cheers
                              floor

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy


Offline Low-Q

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First of all I admire Butch who work so hard trying to make something to work.


The pseudo solid concept was once very interesting to me, but one day I ran some tests with it, which changed my mind.


The magnetic attraction and repulsion to the iron, and between each magnet, changes to the weaker or the stronger depending on if the iron pieces are in a pseudo solid state, or not.
So every time one think there is excess energy when switching from the one state to the other, that portion of energy is already been used by that other state in the cycle.


I still hope that Butch finally reach success with the pseudo solid concept.


Vidar

Offline Floor

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Re: Super simple way to see proof Pseudo Solid principle works using ring magnets
« Reply #100 on: February 23, 2015, 02:05:51 AM »
Quote from Low-Q

"The magnetic attraction and repulsion to the iron, and between each
magnet, changes to the weaker or the stronger depending on if the
iron pieces are in a pseudo solid state, or not.  So every time one think
there is excess energy when switching from the one state to the other,
that portion of energy is already been used by that other state in the cycle."

I think I get the general idea of what you are saying.  No net gain or in other words
the forces balanced out.   That is what we should expect from the interactions.

Speaking only for my self.

Not having a detailed description of your measurements, the interactions and process you
followed, I am still willing to go through this for my self.  Just for the experience.   
What ever the results I will accept them.  The process being in the open, others can also
 benefit / learn as I do.

                    I appreciate your input though
                           cheers
                                   floor

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Super simple way to see proof Pseudo Solid principle works using ring magnets
« Reply #100 on: February 23, 2015, 02:05:51 AM »
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Offline Low-Q

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Re: Super simple way to see proof Pseudo Solid principle works using ring magnets
« Reply #101 on: February 23, 2015, 11:53:59 AM »
Quote from Low-Q

"The magnetic attraction and repulsion to the iron, and between each
magnet, changes to the weaker or the stronger depending on if the
iron pieces are in a pseudo solid state, or not.  So every time one think
there is excess energy when switching from the one state to the other,
that portion of energy is already been used by that other state in the cycle."

I think I get the general idea of what you are saying.  No net gain or in other words
the forces balanced out.   That is what we should expect from the interactions.

Speaking only for my self.

Not having a detailed description of your measurements, the interactions and process you
followed, I am still willing to go through this for my self.  Just for the experience.   
What ever the results I will accept them.  The process being in the open, others can also
 benefit / learn as I do.

                    I appreciate your input though
                           cheers
                                   floor
Also have in mind that measuring forces alone does not decide how much energy you spend or gains.
Say you measure magnetic attraction in two different states, and find that the measurements are equal, or not equal, you must take into consideration the average force between two points. Because force over distance is the energy you want to calculate.


If the device was a wheel, to make it easier to explain, you must find the force at every degree through one cycle. Maybe 360 samples through one cycle is not enough, but most important is that you measure the force (Or torque of the wheel) exactly one degree, or half degree at the time. That way you can tell pretty much for sure if the device is OU or not.


For the pseudo solid concept, maybe there is no wheel, or circular motion, so measuring at each degree might be hard to do. It still has a cycle to complete. Find measurements at small steps at the time, and consider all possible forces that applies in all three dimensions to each object on that device. Then you can assume you have no gain at all when all measurements are accounted for, and calculate the average by adding all measurements together, negative and positive forces, and devide the sum with the number of measurements.


Vidar

Offline gammarayburst

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Push Pull, Attraction Repulsion Layout, Pseudo Solid, Linear Or Rotary
« Reply #102 on: February 23, 2015, 03:31:35 PM »
See attached

Offline norman6538

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Re: Super simple way to see proof Pseudo Solid principle works using ring magnets
« Reply #103 on: February 23, 2015, 04:16:43 PM »
Butch, I don't understand how the magnet gets past the metal attraction spot?
Seems to be there is a sticky spot.

Norman

Offline gammarayburst

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Didn't draw the next unit, no room, it continues around and is rotary
« Reply #104 on: February 23, 2015, 05:15:11 PM »
Butch, I don't understand how the magnet gets past the metal attraction spot?
Seems to be there is a sticky spot.

Norman
Norman, I didn't draw the next unit. The units continue around in a closed loop making it rotary. [/size]
This is a VERY powerful machine.
Butch

 

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