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Author Topic: Super simple way to see proof Pseudo Solid principle works using ring magnets  (Read 68460 times)

Offline dieter

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I just made some observations when playing with some magnets and stacks of MOT - I Core sheets: when the stacks at the bottom and top of the magnets  have a certain height, eg. more than 3mm thick, then the repelling effect of like poles between pseudosolid parts vanishes. But when I try the same with only the bottom stack, it works ok. This may be connected to saturation parameters, I yet have to verify that.


These parameters may however be critical.


BR


EDIT. just tested it with single laminate "I" sheets on top and bottom, works very well. A high saturation of the plates seem to be neccessary. Maybe a horizontal multilayer lamination also has a negative impact, as it may lead to unwanted flux loops.

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Offline gammarayburst

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@Butch, let me know what you think is the flaw in step 4. I don't see it there.
To further explain my idea for an implementation:


I have experienced a problem with this layout before. The magnet at the top of the 'horse shoe' believe it or not was projecting it's magnetic field all the way around to the far end and causing repulsion and the rotor magnet was being repelled on approach rater than attracted. If you can solve this then that layout will work. Let me know what you find out.
Thanks, Butch


Offline gammarayburst

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Pseudo Solid Magnetic Field Distortion Motor/Generator
« Reply #62 on: February 05, 2015, 08:21:01 PM »
See attached

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Pseudo Solid Magnetic Field Distortion Motor/Generator
« Reply #62 on: February 05, 2015, 08:21:01 PM »
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Offline dieter

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Thanks Butch, tho this is surprising me, because the permeability of the horseshoe isn't endless.


I will see what I can do about it, thanks for the data.


BR

Offline gammarayburst

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Thanks Butch, tho this is surprising me, because the permeability of the horseshoe isn't endless.


I will see what I can do about it, thanks for the data.


BR
BR, I was surprised also! I use 1 inch square mild steel bars 8 inches long and 1 inch by 1 inch round NIB grade 42 magnets.


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Offline dieter

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I just made a test, simulating this step 4 situation, although I have no such "horseshoe", so i used straight sheets. Again the "I" laminate sheets from a MOT core. So my horseshoe is essentially just straight, other than that the situation is like in the design.
If I approach the rotor (carrying a magnet) to the side of the horseshoe that contains the magnet, then it will be repelled.


If I approach the rotor (carrying a magnet) to the side of the horseshoe that does NOT contain the magnet, then the rotor is attracted.


I can not imagine how an other shape of the horseshoe could change that. But I guess the rotor should not be in contact with both, hot and cold ends of the horseshoe, so the space between the ends need to be big enough. I also think the thickness of the plates is critical.


Furthermore, the conditions at the rotor must be precisels identical like those of the neutral end  of the horseshoe . If the gaps between magnets and plates are only slightly bigger, then the magnet will be repelled, like in a V gate or magnet ramp. Did you test it without the static magnet too? If it's still repelled that way, then the conditions are not the same at the rotor and horseshoe neutral end. Actually, this is one tricky part of the construction and requires high precision. 


I will try it with a true horseshoe shaped horseshoe  :o  asap.


BR



Offline gammarayburst

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Pure Generator Design
« Reply #66 on: February 05, 2015, 11:35:53 PM »
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Pure Generator Design
« Reply #66 on: February 05, 2015, 11:35:53 PM »
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Offline dieter

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@everybody, I would strongly suggest to go to youtube and search for "pseudosolid", this will give you many Vids by Butch and makes most of this whole pseudo solid business easy to understand, besides it is really impressive what he does.


@Butch,  first of all, I am working with small calibers here, no killer magnets and huge blocks of steel, just a bunch of 5mm diameter Neos and some sheet metal.


So my conditions are slightly diffrent, but I think the pseudosolid principles apply nonetheless.


I have made some Horseshoe sheets and did some basic tests. One significant problem appeared: when the rotating magnet passes over to the rotor mass, it will be close to the inner tip of the horseshoe beginning, see step 3. But the static magnet is in the other corner. They have to be like that, otherwise the rotating one couldn't pass by. But now it is attracted to that tip! It would be repelled if the static magnet would be right at that inner tip, but as mentioned, that cannot be.


I have found an elegant solution to the problem: I put two additional magnets on the outside of the horseshoe, right on that tip, the polarity in a way that the rotating magnet is repelled by them. That seems to work nicely.


The neutral end of the horseshoe does however attract the rotor with magnet, as desired. I think your horseshoe setup was oversaturated.


BR








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Offline gammarayburst

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Refresher Video on Pseudo Solid Principal
« Reply #68 on: February 06, 2015, 03:40:42 PM »
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Offline gammarayburst

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@everybody, I would strongly suggest to go to youtube and search for "pseudosolid", this will give you many Vids by Butch and makes most of this whole pseudo solid business easy to understand, besides it is really impressive what he does.


@Butch,  first of all, I am working with small calibers here, no killer magnets and huge blocks of steel, just a bunch of 5mm diameter Neos and some sheet metal.


So my conditions are slightly diffrent, but I think the pseudosolid principles apply nonetheless.


I have made some Horseshoe sheets and did some basic tests. One significant problem appeared: when the rotating magnet passes over to the rotor mass, it will be close to the inner tip of the horseshoe beginning, see step 3. But the static magnet is in the other corner. They have to be like that, otherwise the rotating one couldn't pass by. But now it is attracted to that tip! It would be repelled if the static magnet would be right at that inner tip, but as mentioned, that cannot be.


I have found an elegant solution to the problem: I put two additional magnets on the outside of the horseshoe, right on that tip, the polarity in a way that the rotating magnet is repelled by them. That seems to work nicely.


The neutral end of the horseshoe does however attract the rotor with magnet, as desired. I think your horseshoe setup was oversaturated.


BR
BR, I got to looking at step 4 again. When the magnet is moved from the rotor back to the lower arm of the horseshoe, that will put two magnets in the horseshoe assembly. Do you see the pull of those two magnets wanting to lock the magnet free rotor arm in position and preventing it from rotating away?








..

Offline gammarayburst

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Pseudo Solid Slider, Linear Or Rotary
« Reply #70 on: February 06, 2015, 08:35:57 PM »
See attached

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Pseudo Solid Slider, Linear Or Rotary
« Reply #70 on: February 06, 2015, 08:35:57 PM »
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Offline dieter

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Yes, absolutely. Nonetheless, we got 3 times energy gain and this one time energy loss, actually rather in step 5 than in step 4.


I did explain that, does anybody read my stuff at all?  ;D


Furthermore, if I add more static magnets to the top of the horseshoe (see labels in step 1), I can increase both, attraction force in step 2 and repelling force in step 3, as long as the neutral end of the horseshoe remains rather neutral. So the gain in 2+3 becomes overproportional compared to the loss in 5. This is where the genius thing happens, in the pseudosolidity! We actually achieve a polarity swapping with permanent magnets, which was unthinkable so far. In that sense I wanna thank you very much.


An other detail: a PM between two steel plates with airgaps is a delicate matter, esp. with strong magnets and small gaps, because the field strength in air increases squareish and therefor balancing in the middle is like dancing on a razzors edge. Very precise, low tolerance, stabile bearings are required.


As an alternative we could think about friction removal, eg. with soapwater. I once used to move a truck sideways with one hand, when it was standing on liquid soap...


BR (as in Best Regards, my name is dieter, but it has nothing to do with a diet  :) )


Offline gammarayburst

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Better Illustration
« Reply #72 on: February 06, 2015, 09:08:29 PM »
See attached

Offline dieter

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Butch, it would help if you add labels, explaining where the energy output is and where energy input is required, and how much, like example given "input (accelleration of mass + friction)" or "output (full magnetic attraction)".
I guess in this latest design the output is the attraction force from step 1 to 2, and the rest is input: the movement to the left in the further steps just needs minimal input?


BR

Offline gammarayburst

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Butch, it would help if you add labels, explaining where the energy output is and where energy input is required, and how much, like example given "input (accelleration of mass + friction)" or "output (full magnetic attraction)".
I guess in this latest design the output is the attraction force from step 1 to 2, and the rest is input: the movement to the left in the further steps just needs minimal input?
BR

BR, Good point, I will do so in the future. And yes the work in this last design is done during step 1 when the full attraction of the magnets pulls the lower bar up. Each movement left would be only very slight work involved. I will post a rotary version that will produce work with each movement from magnet set to magnet set.
Butch
Special note: BR, I just saw something, what if as the rotor arm in step 4, as it lines up with the lower horseshoe arm, you move the magnet all the way around the horseshoe loop to the top, then you have two magnets waiting there and the next rotor arm is starting to line up just as the lower rotor arm is leaving. Then the process starts again with the transfer of one magnet to the upper rotor arm. What do you think?

 

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