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Author Topic: Super simple way to see proof Pseudo Solid principle works using ring magnets  (Read 68462 times)

Offline gammarayburst

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The Ring magnet drawing is not for showing overunity work but to show the basic principle of Pseudo Solid operation. It's shows how a magnetic field can move with it's magnet down a piece of iron without any drag. Any drag that may result is from eddy current drag and can be eliminated many different ways such as different materials that resist eddy current formation and also by laminating the material in razor thin layers. The second drawing attached shows how the Pseudo Solid principle can be applied in a system for overunity.
Thanks,
Butch LaFonte

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Offline Floor

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@GammaRayBurst

               I think I might enjoy doing a few drawings that explain your work on this topic (as I understand your work).
I'm thinking also of phrasing  a few of the "rules" which define and govern the principles (as I understand them).

If I may have your permission to do so, and for your review / corrections, I will [post them here ?

                                                       Cheers
                                                           floor

Offline gammarayburst

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@GammaRayBurst

               I think I might enjoy doing a few drawings that explain your work on this topic (as I understand your work).
I'm thinking also of phrasing  a few of the "rules" which define and govern the principles (as I understand them).

If I may have your permission to do so, and for your review / corrections, I will [post them here ?

                                                       Cheers
                                                           floor
Floor, I would very much appreciate you doing that, yes please go ahead! I need all the help with this that I can get. Thank you so much, Butch


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Offline Floor

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                Some explanation of the Pseudo Solid principles.

                                      Cheers

                                              floor

Offline gammarayburst

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                Some explanation of the Pseudo Solid principles.

                                      Cheers

                                              floor
Floor, great job on the papers you did! That will help people so much understand the principle. There is one area that you need to cover though.
It is when you have two magnets with their poles north poles side by side and in between two plates and the plate set is attracting another plate set that has no magnets in it. Then when that empty plate set is flush with the magnets plate set you slide one magnet in Pseudo Solid fashion to the empty plate set and then the two plate sets go into repulsion to each other and move apart.

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Offline norman6538

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Floor you did a nice job with the principles and the drawings but the missing piece is the measurements of those principles. What it takes to be useful is "a small force that can release a larger force". I did not find that in any of my measurements. But in your last drawing there might be some hope because it is like the Flynn parallel path principle so if you got  measurements to bear out that easily moving the magnets on wheels (with measurements) will activate a larger force and then you are not stuck at that point then OU will be possible.

I have a matchbox car  with the body removed that has a low floor and when I put a 1/2 inch neo on the floor it will stick to the metal cabinet door in the horizontal position but
when the car points to the floor it drops down to the floor but
if I increase the magnetic field with a harddrive arc shaped much stronger
 magnet it just hangs there and will not drop. Butch claims that is due to friction
but in the later case the magnet is heavier and maybe could overcome the eddy currents
but it does not.



Norman

Offline Floor

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@gammarayburst

               No problem. I'll insert another explanation / drawing.

                         Cheers
                                floor

                         

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Offline gammarayburst

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Eddy currents are no problem
« Reply #7 on: December 11, 2013, 07:12:33 PM »
@gammarayburst

               No problem. I'll insert another explanation / drawing.

                         Cheers
                                floor

                         
Floor, Please also mention that eddy currents can be eliminated with the use of eddy current resistant ferromagnetic materials and several other ways.
Thanks so much Butch

Offline Floor

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@ Norman6538

             Yes I agree, you are correct, in stating that measurements need to be taken and presented.

             Yes I agree, you are correct, no measurements were "here" presented, that is, until you presented your match box
             car experiment.

             As to why your match box car didn't roll down the refrigerator with the stronger although heavier neo magnet, but did
             roll down with a weaker although lighter magnet?


            You have just presented measurements, restated butches theory, and stated your own theory.

  Your observations?

  1. The weaker and lighter magnet, under your test conditions, did not create more resistance to the rolling of the match box car than
the combined weight of magnet and car.

  2. The stronger although and heavier magnet, under your test conditions, created more resistance to the rolling of the match box car than the combined weight of the car and the stronger / heavier magnet could over come.

   Your conclusions ?

  1. The lack of movement of the stronger and heavier magnet was due to eddy currents and not friction.

                              Have I understood your experiment / observations and conclusions correctly ?
                              Please understand, I'm not trying to "put words into your mouth".

   My observations, suggestions, comments
 
                OBSERVATIONS
    1. Eddy currents can only be produced, under the conditions in your experiment WHILE one of the magnet is in MOTION.
    There fore, friction MUST be the cause of the NON motion during the stronger / heavier magnet and car test, unless there is
    some unknown or factor not presented in your findings / test.

                SUGGESTIONS
     1. Modify your experiment by using a metal surface (a carpenters saw? ) that can be easily rotated from a plumb
     orientation into a level orientation.
     2. Suspend each of the "test vehicles" :) from the saw, while the saw is level in two planes (broad sides up and down)
     3. Tape, tie or rubber band some weights to the cars until gravity pulls them from the saw.
     4. Reposition the saw into a plumb orientation and repeat step 3.
     5. Optionally, pull each car and magnet arrangement along a metal surface and then pull each one directly (at 90 degrees) from
     the metal surface.
     6. Note under which conditions a greater weight was required to move the car and magnet.
     7. Post the observations.

                COMMENTS
     1. Your "experiment" and it's presentation could have been valuable to this discussion, and could easily have added valid
     information (confirmation or disproof) to the discussion, but did not.
     2. Instead, (excepting your assertion, an assertion made repeatedly in the other title for this topic ?) that measurements
     need to be made, has detracted from the discussion.
     3. Elementary experimentation, as well as conventional scientific explanation, easily demonstrate  the validity of the pseudo solid
     principles.  Note I did not say Over unity.
     4. Your "experiments" conclusions are wrong, you methods and observations are incomplete and flawed.
     5. The stronger magnet must have crushed the wheels of the hot wheels car into contact with the car's body
     preventing their rotation ?
     6. Poor or worse yet, phoney measurements, are misleading and there fore worse than no measurements.
     7. A GOOD critic is valuable, indeed an asset, please be one.

                             Thanks
                                  floor


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Offline gammarayburst

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Floor you did a nice job with the principles and the drawings but the missing piece is the measurements of those principles. What it takes to be useful is "a small force that can release a larger force". I did not find that in any of my measurements. But in your last drawing there might be some hope because it is like the Flynn parallel path principle so if you got  measurements to bear out that easily moving the magnets on wheels (with measurements) will activate a larger force and then you are not stuck at that point then OU will be possible.

I have a matchbox car  with the body removed that has a low floor and when I put a 1/2 inch neo on the floor it will stick to the metal cabinet door in the horizontal position but
when the car points to the floor it drops down to the floor but
if I increase the magnetic field with a harddrive arc shaped much stronger
 magnet it just hangs there and will not drop. Butch claims that is due to friction
but in the later case the magnet is heavier and maybe could overcome the eddy currents
but it does not.



Norman
Norman, a magnet can not be held in place by eddy currents when it is standing still. Eddy currents only happen when their is movement of the magnet relative to the the ferromagnetic material. I have shown countless times with video that a 1" grade 48 NIB magnet will move with the slight push of the finger when balanced between two bars in a "floating" position. The magnet was even brushing up against the bars a slight amount and still moved with ease. Pseudo Solid movement with very little work is real. You just need to build a rigid precision fixture to illustrate it. The car on frig door is not the way to do it because the magnet is not floating with equal and opposite forces on it's poles. Also, I have illustrated many ways the magnets can be moved from repulsion to attraction one at a time through the end of the bars to reset the cycle. I don't have the money any more to build this, maybe someone on the site will. Also, eddy currents can be reduced to next to nothing by using the right materials and fabrication.
Butch

Offline norman6538

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Floor here is my modified experiment.

 2 identical matchbox car floors (no bodies) should have the same friction 
 on a ramp. The car closest to camera with extra magnets and one
 under the floor and thus closer to the metal and also with
 extra weight stays in place while the other
 car with less magnets and less weight rolls down the ramp.  why?
I expected the heavier car floor to go down the ramp but instead
the lighter car went down the ramp. So I assume the factor was
the magnetic force that held the heavier car in place.
 Double checking  I swapped car floors to make sure there was no performance difference
 in one car over the other and the results were the same.


 

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Offline norman6538

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Webby1, good point. I'll work up something else to check the friction issue.
Butch has claimed several times that friction is the problem.

Norman

Offline Floor

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@All readers

              PseudoSolid principles 2nd edition
                   
                                cheers

Offline Floor

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@Norman6538

 Great ! better test methodology.  Buy you are still changing more than 1 variable at a time.
 1. weight of vehicle
 2. strength of magnet
 3. friction on axles

      It's impossible to do analysis of the results with out precise details of the weight change / friction change
      / magnet strength change or...............

     A simplification of the experiment, that is to say reduce the number of things that change during the
     experiment to one change at a time.

suggestions

1. Use a different rolling device.  The friction at the wheels and bearings MUST increase with increased force pressing upon them.
        In your experiment, both the stronger magnet and the greater weight increase this friction. The use of  stronger wheel and
        axle sets will not prevent the friction from changing during the varying conditions, however the amount of change in force you
        cause by swapping magnets (while using most styles of axle sets) would be insignificant under the conditions of your
        measurements. (not so with hot wheels)
2. Add weight to the lighter weaker magnet (on the top) until it is the same weight as the stronger heavier magnet. Use a non magnetic
    material,  maybe lead sinkers taped onto it. This will eliminate one unneeded variable when you swap magnets. Under the
    conditions of the experiment a SMALL difference in the weights of the magnets is probably not very significant. The differing
    magnets  strengths, is I suspect the major variation.


    One additional experiment you might try.
 
      Using a thick (new) roll of aluminum foil.

      1. Check to see if one of your strong neo magnets is attracted to it.
      2. While holding the roll of foil in hand, with it's long axis vertical, drop the same magnet
      through the center of the cardboard tube / aluminum foil roll.


                                     cheers

 

Offline Floor

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Apologies,  I missed including the last JPG drawing in the Pseudo Solid  explained  - 2 file

              Please find attached Pseudo Solid explained - 3 PDF


                                     Cheers again
                                             floor





 

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