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### Author Topic: How to make multiple Kicks  (Read 96312 times)

#### MileHigh

• Hero Member
• Posts: 7600
##### Re: How to make multiple Kicks
« Reply #30 on: November 28, 2013, 04:15:30 AM »
The electron volt is a well understood concept:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electronvolt

In physics, the electron volt (symbol eV; also written electronvolt[1][2]) is a unit of energy equal to approximately 1.6×10−19 joule (symbol J). By definition, it is the amount of energy gained (or lost) by the charge of a single electron moved across an electric potential difference of one volt. Thus it is 1 volt (1 joule per coulomb, 1 J/C) multiplied by the elementary charge (e, or 1.602176565(35)×10−19 C). Therefore, one electron volt is equal to 1.602176565(35)×10−19 J.[3] Historically, the electron volt was devised as a standard unit of measure through its usefulness in electrostatic particle accelerator sciences because a particle with charge q has an energy E = qV after passing through the potential V; if q is quoted in integer units of the elementary charge and the terminal bias in volts, one gets an energy in eV.

Note the high voltage spikes you get from coils (are those the kicks?) are due to the fact that the instant before the inductor produces the high voltage spike there must be current flowing through the coil.  Without the current flow then you can't get any voltage spikes.

The "old school" vs. "new school" angle is mitigated by the fact that what your circuit does only has one real and true explanation for how it works.  There is no old vs. new in that sense.

Anyway Bruce, unless you show something, we are all just navel gazing.

MileHigh

#### Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

##### Re: How to make multiple Kicks
« Reply #30 on: November 28, 2013, 04:15:30 AM »

#### MileHigh

• Hero Member
• Posts: 7600
##### Re: How to make multiple Kicks
« Reply #31 on: November 28, 2013, 04:36:00 AM »
About Farmhand's comment about learning basic concepts and basic electronics.  The "future" is here, you really can go up to your home computer terminal and punch in the codes to find the information that is in the information banks.  You can even get information from the Library of Congress.  It's all up to you.

#### SeaMonkey

• Hero Member
• Posts: 1292
##### Re: How to make multiple Kicks
« Reply #32 on: November 28, 2013, 05:48:47 AM »
Invigorating discussion gentlemen!  Well done
so far.  Very much food for thought has been
presented.

Radiant Energy can be produced in a multitude
of ways;  particularly feeble bursts in "circuits"
or wires which seem to have no path for current
flow.

Since Radiant Energy is the product of transient
impulses (yes there is current flow too) there is
a sound explanation for each and every instance
of the mysterious "pulses" or "kicks" which have
been observed.

Those of you who are familiar with transmission line
operation, antenna resonance and Time Domain

Open Circuits do permit current flow when switches
are thrown!

#### Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

##### Re: How to make multiple Kicks
« Reply #32 on: November 28, 2013, 05:48:47 AM »

#### Farmhand

• Hero Member
• Posts: 1583
##### Re: How to make multiple Kicks
« Reply #33 on: November 28, 2013, 05:58:33 AM »
The electron volt is a well understood concept:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electronvolt

In physics, the electron volt (symbol eV; also written electronvolt[1][2]) is a unit of energy equal to approximately 1.6×10−19 joule (symbol J). By definition, it is the amount of energy gained (or lost) by the charge of a single electron moved across an electric potential difference of one volt. Thus it is 1 volt (1 joule per coulomb, 1 J/C) multiplied by the elementary charge (e, or 1.602176565(35)×10−19 C). Therefore, one electron volt is equal to 1.602176565(35)×10−19 J.[3] Historically, the electron volt was devised as a standard unit of measure through its usefulness in electrostatic particle accelerator sciences because a particle with charge q has an energy E = qV after passing through the potential V; if q is quoted in integer units of the elementary charge and the terminal bias in volts, one gets an energy in eV.

Note the high voltage spikes you get from coils (are those the kicks?) are due to the fact that the instant before the inductor produces the high voltage spike there must be current flowing through the coil.  Without the current flow then you can't get any voltage spikes.

The "old school" vs. "new school" angle is mitigated by the fact that what your circuit does only has one real and true explanation for how it works.  There is no old vs. new in that sense.

Anyway Bruce, unless you show something, we are all just navel gazing.

MileHigh

Referring to the part of your quote I made bold, my point is that for there to be current flowing through the coil in the first place a potential must be applied to it first. First is the applied potential then is the current in the coil then is the spike when the switch is opened to keep the current flowing. One of my points is that to get the charge/current flowing
in the inductor/coil to begin with so that the coil has current flow to produce a spike, a potential must first be applied to the coil.

I can't argue with the technical part and have no desire to as it is more than likely spot on correct. But for us laymen we do not need to know that.

I'm not sure about you but I am tired of linking to and explaining basic electronic theory to the same people over and over. A thread here would be much easier to link to. And much of the confusion surrounding terms could be addressed.

How do we actually measure displacement current directly with a meter?

Cheers

#### MileHigh

• Hero Member
• Posts: 7600
##### Re: How to make multiple Kicks
« Reply #34 on: November 28, 2013, 06:11:30 AM »
There is current flow on the surface of any metal or conductive material.  It's sort of an invisible current flow that you don't normally have to be concerned with.  If you have a hollow conducting sphere and bring an electric charge close to it, the electric field inside the sphere remains zero.  It's because the electrons redistribute themselves over the surface of the metal sphere as they react to the approaching electric charge and its associated electric field.  That means there is current flow.  The same sphere will react to the radio waves from an AM radio station and currents will oscillate back and forth on the sphere.

So that means that essentially any piece of metal you look at will have that property.  Electrons are always in motion on the surfaces of conductors because of the ambient radio frequency environment we live in.  And then as SeaMonkey stated that leads to antennas and stuff like that.  In a way antenna theory is just a repeat of basic electronics concepts but at radio frequencies.

#### Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

##### Re: How to make multiple Kicks
« Reply #34 on: November 28, 2013, 06:11:30 AM »

#### Farmhand

• Hero Member
• Posts: 1583
##### Re: How to make multiple Kicks
« Reply #35 on: November 28, 2013, 06:18:21 AM »
Bruce, if the kicks have energy than it took energy to produce them, saying otherwise is saying you can create work or energy from nothing.

Electrons do not scoot along wires at great speed like the charge does. Electrons hardly move much at all when a current is flowing and powering a load with very fast charge.
In my opinion the electrons only move a bit as they transfer charge to each other.

As I see it in an conductor with AC applied the electrons jiggle back and forth as charge is transferred between them with a net movement in relation to the energy consumed I think.

And I think in a conductor with DC applied they just jiggle a bit and move slowly along the wire in one direction as they pass charge to each other. The electrons certainly do not move as fast as the charge does in a conductor.  As far as I know or have been able to ascertain.

..

#### Farmhand

• Hero Member
• Posts: 1583
##### Re: How to make multiple Kicks
« Reply #36 on: November 28, 2013, 06:22:44 AM »
Yes but how can we measure directly the flow of charge related to displacement current across a gap or dielectric like an air capacitor. If the electrons do not cross the gap then how does the charge get from one plate to the other ?

The finer points are definitely not easy to wrap our head around without the extensive training so we ought to be satisfied that it just does.

Does anyone dispute that the electrons in a conductor do not scoot along the conductor at the same velocity as the charge ?

As I said it is the basics and the principals behind it that matter, and is what is lacking, in my opinion.

Would it be true to say we can have electrons with different levels of charge ?

..

#### Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

##### Re: How to make multiple Kicks
« Reply #36 on: November 28, 2013, 06:22:44 AM »

#### MileHigh

• Hero Member
• Posts: 7600
##### Re: How to make multiple Kicks
« Reply #37 on: November 28, 2013, 06:35:09 AM »
Here is some food for thought:

Quote
According to classical mechanics, I calculated that if an electron were to be accelerated through a potential difference of about 257 kV, it would breach the speed of light. Now, according to relativistic mechanics, this is obviously untrue. So, what are the mathematical corrections to be made whilst calculating the speed attained?

What I did was:

qV = (mv^2)/2 [Electrostatic potential energy = Kinetic energy]

How do I correct this using relativistic mechanics?

Quote
The relativistic kinetic energy is (γ - 1) × m₀ × c², where γ is the Lorentz factor.

If you use that in your equation, 257 kV will accelerate an electron to 0.747 c. (And, for reference, a potential of ten times that - 2,570 kV - will accelerate an electron to 0.986 c. A hundred times that - 25,700 kV - to 0.9998 c. And a thousand times that - 257 MV - to 0.999998 c.)

So electrons moving at (close to) the speed of light don't come cheap!

#### MileHigh

• Hero Member
• Posts: 7600
##### Re: How to make multiple Kicks
« Reply #38 on: November 28, 2013, 06:59:16 AM »
Farmhand:

Note you can also have changing magnetic flux though the coil to induce current flow also.

For the displacement current, since you know that the current is the same everywhere in a current loop, the easiest and most logical way to measure it is to measure real current somewhere else in the loop.  It really is as simple as that.

The two plates of a capacitor can act as the "glue" or "pipe" that allows the current to flow.  The metal plates can be charge neutral or hold an excess or lack of electrons.  So the AC current flow translates into charges flowing onto and off of the capacitor plates.  Think of a big rectangular baking pan as the capacitor plate and you pour a big glass of water into the center of the pan.  Voila, there is your current flow.  But there are actually two pans face to face filling and emptying of water, in a manner of speaking.

As to what is really going on, I am going to take a decent guess without looking anything up.  Between the capacitor plates you have a certain amount of electric flux.  The current flow translates into changing electric flux with respect to time.  So the "throbbing electric flux" is part and parcel of what's happening with the AC current flow.  If you could measure the changing electric flux with respect to time you would be measuring the current flow.

Even deeper, the answer is shockingly simple.  In the dielectric material between the capacitor plates, each molecule is like a little stressed egg shape.  There is an electric field present.  That pulls on the negative electron cloud and pushes on the positive nucleus.  That stresses and distorts the shape of the molecule so it looks like an egg instead of a sphere.  So that is a little mechanical spring.  You note that if the egg is stressed it produces its own electric field and that field is opposite to the applied field.  Hence with a high permittivity dielectric you have eggs that can really be stressed.  Also, you can't forget we are always talking AC, so the eggs are being stressed and relaxed over and over.

So, where is the current?  The capacitor is acting like a kind of transformer, and AC current stresses the eggs, throbbing molecules like so many stressed eggs.  The stronger the "spring" associated with a given molecule, the more energy you can store in the capacitor.

MileHigh

#### Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

##### Re: How to make multiple Kicks
« Reply #38 on: November 28, 2013, 06:59:16 AM »

#### Farmhand

• Hero Member
• Posts: 1583
##### Re: How to make multiple Kicks
« Reply #39 on: November 28, 2013, 07:03:54 AM »
Farmhand:

Note you can also have changing magnetic flux though the coil to induce current flow also.

For the displacement current, since you know that the current is the same everywhere in a current loop, the easiest and most logical way to measure it is to measure real current somewhere else in the loop.  It really is as simple as that.

The two plates of a capacitor can act as the "glue" or "pipe" that allows the current to flow.  The metal plates can be charge neutral or hold and excess or lack of electrons.  So the AC current flow translates into charges flowing onto and off of the capacitor plates.  Think of a big rectangular baking pan as the capacitor plate and you pour a big glass of water into the center of the pan.  Voila, there is your current flow.  But there are actually two pans face to face filling and emptying of water, in a manner of speaking.

As to what is really going on, I am going to take a decent guess without looking anything up.  Between the capacitor plates you have a certain amount of electric flux.  The current flow translates into changing electric flux with respect to time.  So the "throbbing electric" flux is part and parcel of what's happening with the AC current flow.  If you could measure the changing electric flux with respect to time you would be measuring the current flow.

Even deeper, the answer is shockingly simple.  In the dielectric material between the capacitor plates, each molecule is like a little stressed egg shape.  There is an electric field present.  That pulls on the negative electron cloud and pushes on the positive nucleus.  That stresses and distorts the shape of the molecule so it looks like an egg instead of a sphere.  So that is a little mechanical spring.  You note that if the egg is stressed it produces its own electric field and that field is opposite to the applied field.  Hence with a high permittivity dielectric you have eggs that can really be stressed.  Also, you can't forget we are always talking AC, so the eggs are being stressed and relaxed over and over.

So, where is the current?  The capacitor is acting like a kind of transformer, and AC current stresses the eggs, throbbing molecules like so many stressed eggs.  The stronger the "spring" associated with a given molecule, the more energy you can store in the capacitor.

MileHigh

Yes but doesn't a changing magnetic flux constitute a "potential" ?

I think I'm getting the displacement current thing. I'll try to put it into my words after I read a few more times.  I'll take my time on reading your last post. Maybe days.

..

#### Farmhand

• Hero Member
• Posts: 1583
##### Re: How to make multiple Kicks
« Reply #40 on: November 28, 2013, 07:15:10 AM »
Here is some food for thought:

Quote
According to classical mechanics, I calculated that if an electron were to be accelerated through a potential difference of about 257 kV, it would breach the speed of light. Now, according to relativistic mechanics, this is obviously untrue. So, what are the mathematical corrections to be made whilst calculating the speed attained?

What I did was:

qV = (mv^2)/2 [Electrostatic potential energy = Kinetic energy]

How do I correct this using relativistic mechanics?

Quote
The relativistic kinetic energy is (γ - 1) × m₀ × c², where γ is the Lorentz factor.

If you use that in your equation, 257 kV will accelerate an electron to 0.747 c. (And, for reference, a potential of ten times that - 2,570 kV - will accelerate an electron to 0.986 c. A hundred times that - 25,700 kV - to 0.9998 c. And a thousand times that - 257 MV - to 0.999998 c.)

So electrons moving at (close to) the speed of light don't come cheap!

I really like it when you guys get technical and explain it as you go a bit but leave some room for some brain work of our own.

Ta

#### Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

##### Re: How to make multiple Kicks
« Reply #40 on: November 28, 2013, 07:15:10 AM »

#### MileHigh

• Hero Member
• Posts: 7600
##### Re: How to make multiple Kicks
« Reply #41 on: November 28, 2013, 07:26:47 AM »
Farmhand:

I was just mentioning that you can induce current with changing magnetic flux and yes that creates an electric field.  In fact it creates a circular electric field that the coil sits inside of and is more than happy to "pick up."  It's the same concept from multiple angles.  When you apply a voltage source to the coil, then the electric field associated with that voltage source snakes its way through the coil in circles.  Kind of the same deal one more time.

I think the simple summation of what I said that might make you happy is this:  What we call "displacement current" is the changing electric flux with respect to time through a closed loop.  It's also interesting in that you can think of the displacement in a physical form with respect to the capacitor dielectric, i.e.; the displacement in form that the stressed eggs undergo.

MileHigh

#### Bruce_TPU

• TPU-Elite
• Hero Member
• Posts: 1437
##### Re: How to make multiple Kicks
« Reply #42 on: November 28, 2013, 09:17:49 AM »
Bruce, if the kicks have energy than it took energy to produce them, saying otherwise is saying you can create work or energy from nothing.

Electrons do not scoot along wires at great speed like the charge does. Electrons hardly move much at all when a current is flowing and powering a load with very fast charge.
In my opinion the electrons only move a bit as they transfer charge to each other.

As I see it in an conductor with AC applied the electrons jiggle back and forth as charge is transferred between them with a net movement in relation to the energy consumed I think.

And I think in a conductor with DC applied they just jiggle a bit and move slowly along the wire in one direction as they pass charge to each other. The electrons certainly do not move as fast as the charge does in a conductor.  As far as I know or have been able to ascertain.

..

NOT created by nothing!!!

Stevens whole point was to show that the Earths magnetic field DOES  have an influence on electrons!

Power is neither created nor destroyed but tranformed.  Sheesh...really??

#### Bruce_TPU

• TPU-Elite
• Hero Member
• Posts: 1437
##### Re: How to make multiple Kicks
« Reply #43 on: November 28, 2013, 09:22:06 AM »
Farmhand:

Note you can also have changing magnetic flux though the coil to induce current flow also.

For the displacement current, since you know that the current is the same everywhere in a current loop, the easiest and most logical way to measure it is to measure real current somewhere else in the loop.  It really is as simple as that.

The two plates of a capacitor can act as the "glue" or "pipe" that allows the current to flow.  The metal plates can be charge neutral or hold an excess or lack of electrons.  So the AC current flow translates into charges flowing onto and off of the capacitor plates.  Think of a big rectangular baking pan as the capacitor plate and you pour a big glass of water into the center of the pan.  Voila, there is your current flow.  But there are actually two pans face to face filling and emptying of water, in a manner of speaking.

As to what is really going on, I am going to take a decent guess without looking anything up.  Between the capacitor plates you have a certain amount of electric flux.  The current flow translates into changing electric flux with respect to time.  So the "throbbing electric flux" is part and parcel of what's happening with the AC current flow.  If you could measure the changing electric flux with respect to time you would be measuring the current flow.

Even deeper, the answer is shockingly simple.  In the dielectric material between the capacitor plates, each molecule is like a little stressed egg shape.  There is an electric field present.  That pulls on the negative electron cloud and pushes on the positive nucleus.  That stresses and distorts the shape of the molecule so it looks like an egg instead of a sphere.  So that is a little mechanical spring.  You note that if the egg is stressed it produces its own electric field and that field is opposite to the applied field.  Hence with a high permittivity dielectric you have eggs that can really be stressed.  Also, you can't forget we are always talking AC, so the eggs are being stressed and relaxed over and over.

So, where is the current?  The capacitor is acting like a kind of transformer, and AC current stresses the eggs, throbbing molecules like so many stressed eggs.  The stronger the "spring" associated with a given molecule, the more energy you can store in the capacitor.

MileHigh

The kicks are NOT displacement current!!!

NO Dialectric show in video.  Raw metal !

WRONG-  ding ding ding....try again!

#### Bruce_TPU

• TPU-Elite
• Hero Member
• Posts: 1437
##### Re: How to make multiple Kicks
« Reply #44 on: November 28, 2013, 09:26:05 AM »
Here is some food for thought:

So electrons moving at (close to) the speed of light don't come cheap!

Ha!  If you think high voltage is the only way to accelerate electrons think again!

Wrong- ding ding ding...try again!

Try not being a pc hero and do some real experimenting!