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Author Topic: Reactive Generator Research for everyone to share  (Read 108665 times)

Offline gotoluc

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Re: Reactive Generator Research for everyone to share
« Reply #120 on: December 07, 2013, 03:26:54 AM »
I've attached an image of my test bench - just for info...

Luc, I'm not sure what I should be looking for...

The capacitors don't seem to 'tune' anything - as I said - you just need 'enough' (for me, about 30uF) to correct the power factor, and any extra makes no difference.

Using less than enough (less than 30uF) - and the phases diverge. With about 5uF or less they're 90 degrees out. At this point there's very little power being delivered to the load, but my variac still draws some power (10-12w).

For my 13w in (to 'light' the bulb - one part of filament goes dull red), I get about 20v across the 50ohm bulb. (I know a bulb's resistance changes when it gets hot - but I'm not letting it get very hot.) I'm not sure if my DMM reads peak, or RMS, but either way the output power is 9watts or less. (8.8 if RMS, 6.3 if peak, I think)

So, with any amount of caps, it looks clear that I'm getting less out than I'm putting in.

So, questions:

 1) Do you have a cap switch box - so you can change values while the circuit is running? If not - how do you do it?

 2) Have you found that the phase is 90 deg out with very low capacitance, and converges as capacitance increases, to a plateau?
  i.e. Do your results concur with mine?

 3) It seems to me that a resistive load *requires* the phases to be together... I think the very definition of resistance means that the power has to be 'used up' (converted to heat). It's possible that an inductive load would be different. What do you think?

Regards
Tim

Hi Tim

I'm quite sure your 50 Ohm load on the Primary is too high of Resistance. If you use the Primary side for load (like you are) then try a 10 Ohm Resistor.  If you chose a load on the Secondary side, then try a 1k Ohm.

If you chose to experiment with a cap on the Secondary it would need to be a small value, like 0.66uf or less. A small cap value on the Secondary is enough to maintain a phase shift on the Primary without adding a cap to it.

All kinds of interesting things to play with

All the best

Luc

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy


Offline tim123

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Re: Reactive Generator Research for everyone to share
« Reply #121 on: December 07, 2013, 05:03:24 PM »
Here are some images showing the scope, meter & bulb, at various capacitance settings.
 - The voltage from the variac is constant thoughout (40V).
 - Yellow is Channel A - which is before the MOT
 - Blue is Channel B    - which is before the Bulb

You can see the phases converge, and the voltage at the bulb increases, as does it's brightness.

You can see a maximum phase shift is obtained, and the adding more caps makes little difference.

Offline tim123

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Re: Reactive Generator Research for everyone to share
« Reply #122 on: December 07, 2013, 05:33:24 PM »
Hi Tim,
well done.
Maybe you can also try to measure voltage and current BEFORE the Variac with your scope...

Hi Stefan, thanks :)
  I'm new to measuring current & phase etc. and I must admit I don't really understand a lot of this... Would you be able to do a diagram showing where and how you would make the measurements? How many probes would it require ideally?

I know how I'd do it - but then I usually trip out the house RCDs... It doesn't improve my son's xbox experience :D

I don't think I have any low-value high-curent resistors for a shunt. I may have to buy a couple.

Quote
Can you already verify that the power factor does not change at the input when you load the output ?

Sorry, no. Could you please explain how you would test this? Do you mean perhaps a variable resistor as a load?

Quote
What pahse angles do you get between current and voltage ?

Hopefully the previous pics demonstrate this...

I'm still a bit confused by the idea of using a shunt to measure the current vicariously...

I know that in a tank-circuit, the current is at a maximum when the voltage is at zero, and vice-versa...

So would you use a shunt in parallel with the tank to measure voltage, and one in series to measure current?


Quote
Are you on a 230 Volts 50 Hz system or 60 Hz 120 Volts system ?

230V - 50Hz.

:)
Regards
Tim

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Reactive Generator Research for everyone to share
« Reply #122 on: December 07, 2013, 05:33:24 PM »
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Offline tim123

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Re: Reactive Generator Research for everyone to share
« Reply #123 on: December 07, 2013, 08:41:19 PM »
Short Update: Using a Universal Motor as a Load...

Now I have tuning... I replaced the resistive load with the motor from a vacuum cleaner, and now it has a sharp tuning point at about 40uF.

It seems to be most efficient when the voltage at the motor is maybe 25 degrees behind the source (phase difference). The voltage is higher than the source at this phase / capacitance.

I also tried removing the MOT, so the circuit is just the capacitor bank, and the motor, and it seems to behave almost identically. More tests needed though.

It doesn't seem to be improving the efficiency though... The motor runs much better on DC...

Offline hartiberlin

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Re: Reactive Generator Research for everyone to share
« Reply #124 on: December 07, 2013, 10:34:25 PM »
Hi Tim,
well done and thanks for the pics.
Did you use the circuit diagram that Luc redraw from yours one ?
So was this with the secondary of the MOT shortcircuited ?

Does your digital Watt meter have the possibility to show
power factor together with the input Watts ?

What kind of light bulb did you use ?
a 60 or 100 Watts type ?
This is probably to low in resistance to really see the differences, so it would probably be
better to start with a 25 or 40 Watts incandescent bulb.

Regards, Stefan.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Reactive Generator Research for everyone to share
« Reply #124 on: December 07, 2013, 10:34:25 PM »
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Offline hartiberlin

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Re: Reactive Generator Research for everyone to share
« Reply #125 on: December 07, 2013, 11:22:43 PM »
Hi Tim,
here is the modified circuit diagram
you can try.

Be sure to see exactly where your Neutral line is from your Mains Grid
and use there the 1 Ohm or 10 Ohm Shunt to measure the current.
If you mix this up you will blow your scope heads and maybe your Scope !!

So better do it with also another isolating transformer to begin with
as it will isolate the ground versus your circuit and then some errors
will not cause a short circuit to grid ground.

if you can, please also show the power factor together with the input Watts on your
digital Wattmeter.

Many thanks.

Regards, Stefan.

Offline tim123

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Re: Reactive Generator Research for everyone to share
« Reply #126 on: December 08, 2013, 12:28:36 PM »
Hi Stefan :)
  Thanks for the diagram. So you just want to see the effect the circuit has on the incoming supply... I get it. I'll have to order a shunt today...

Unfortunately, my wattmeter will not show PF & Watts simultaneously...

I have some 60w, and maybe a 40w bulb too... Will play around with them later...

Regards
Tim

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Reactive Generator Research for everyone to share
« Reply #126 on: December 08, 2013, 12:28:36 PM »
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Offline hartiberlin

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Re: Reactive Generator Research for everyone to share
« Reply #127 on: December 08, 2013, 04:59:05 PM »
Hi Tim,
you can also use several higher resistances, e.g. 10 x 100 Ohm resistors in parallel to get a 10 Ohm shunt.
Just be creative.
If the shunt resistor is 0.1 or 1 Ohm or 10 Ohm does not play such an importan role,
you only need to change the multilplication factor in your calculation then to see the right input amps.

1 Ohm is surely the easiest, as you have a multiplication forcator of 1 so the value does not change in
the calculation and is easiest to see the right current without needing to calculate in a multiplication factor...

Surely the shunt resistor should be at least 10 to 20 times smaller than the coil impedance of your variac then
to not introduce too much error...

Hope this helps.

Regards, Stefan.

Offline tim123

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Re: Reactive Generator Research for everyone to share
« Reply #128 on: December 08, 2013, 05:47:13 PM »
Hi Stefan, I've ordered a proper 5A, and a 10A shunt. They weren't expensive. It's always worth getting decent equipment...

Luc, perhaps you could tell us the specs of your motor? Is it fixed speed / brushed or induction / split phase or caps...? What's it's power rating?

It would be interesting to know the specs for the generator too...

Regards
Tim

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Reactive Generator Research for everyone to share
« Reply #128 on: December 08, 2013, 05:47:13 PM »
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Offline tim123

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Re: Reactive Generator Research for everyone to share
« Reply #129 on: December 08, 2013, 06:32:49 PM »
Hi Guys, I'd like to just talk about what 'reactive' power is exactly...

Attached is a diagram of a parallel tank-circuit. This, I think, is the clearest example of what reactive power is, but I'd be grateful if more knowledgable members would comment / correct.

On the left we have the AC input - which is real, in-phase power, but of a small amount.

On the right, after the tank, we have AC 'output' which is fully out-of phase 'imaginary' power, where the voltage and current are both amplified by the 'Q Factor' of the coil.

So if the 'Q' is 100 - there's 100 x more 'reactive power' circulating in the tank, than there is going into it.

But, you can't use that power - because it's out of phase etc...

Does that just about sum it up?

Regards, Tim

Offline forest

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Re: Reactive Generator Research for everyone to share
« Reply #130 on: December 08, 2013, 07:01:46 PM »
Of course you can use it but that is different story.... I posted some time ago very revealing documents. Reactive power is crucial to maintain LINE VOLTAGE which is all needed to create current in load. So the assumption you cannot use reactive power is very wrong. Actually power station use the balanced reactive power to create situation when current in your house is generated for loads! That's how I understood that somehow covered knowledge limited to people operating power station.


Why my God oh why ,books do not let us know answers !? Ask simple , explain simple ! Transmission lines, why they had to have groundings in many places ? That's one question...
Where is coming the current , after doing work in my house ? According to Ohm law it cannot just dissapear , right ? Second question...

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Reactive Generator Research for everyone to share
« Reply #130 on: December 08, 2013, 07:01:46 PM »
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Offline forest

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Offline hartiberlin

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Re: Reactive Generator Research for everyone to share
« Reply #132 on: December 09, 2013, 12:25:01 AM »
Well, if this works at 50 or 60 Hz with heavy MOT transformers , this can also work at 20 Khz for instance
with small ferrite transformers !

Then you could probably also use a small 9 Volts powered sine wave oscillator only using MilliWatts
and extract Watts of power via a ferrite joke transformer the same way...

Probably much easier to setup and play with as you don´t need the big transformers and also much smaller
caps only...

Has anybody tried this yet ?

Regards, Stefan.


Offline forest

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Re: Reactive Generator Research for everyone to share
« Reply #133 on: December 09, 2013, 08:19:46 AM »
Well, if this works at 50 or 60 Hz with heavy MOT transformers , this can also work at 20 Khz for instance
with small ferrite transformers !

Then you could probably also use a small 9 Volts powered sine wave oscillator only using MilliWatts
and extract Watts of power via a ferrite joke transformer the same way...

Probably much easier to setup and play with as you don´t need the big transformers and also much smaller
caps only...

Has anybody tried this yet ?

Regards, Stefan.


I believe so. Keep in mind it would require very very precise electronics to do this. I expect no results or the blow of components are two opposite effect visible.  :P  Recall Steven Mark notes.

Offline tim123

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Re: Reactive Generator Research for everyone to share
« Reply #134 on: December 10, 2013, 08:00:30 PM »
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tP3T8w0gBm4

Hi Forest :)
  thanks for that link. Bad audio, but good content.

It 100% explains what I was observing with the Universal Motor - using just the caps switchbox to correct the power factor...

With the circuit 'tuned', the voltage at the motor *leads* the voltage at the source, and is a higher voltage. So the caps are providing the 'vars'... The waveform I see is what he shows in the vid. The vid also explained that a resistive load only consumes real power...


Luc, I've not observed any effect which suggests OU. The circuit seems quite conventional.

It does improve the efficiency of my motor by about 3% (1 watt), according to the wattmeter, but that's far from the 50%+ improvement you showed in your vid. But you were still putting 50 watts into your motor - which is a fair bit of power...

At the moment, there's nothing to suggest to me that anything other than power-factor correction is occurring.

It would be nice if you would share the details of your motor etc.  You did promise to share in the title, but haven't been very forthcoming with details, and I did notice that you'd ignored most of my questions.

Regards
Tim

 

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