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Author Topic: The Magneformer-lenzless transformer ?  (Read 39917 times)

Offline magneto_DC

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Re: The Magneformer-lenzless transformer ?
« Reply #45 on: November 12, 2013, 11:45:07 AM »
@Magpwr
Any pulsed inductor can be made into a battery desulphator,it is quite easy.
Tomorrow i will make a video of a desulphator of the simplest kind-no transistor,reed switches or hall effect devices. It will cost you about $1.00 to make,and will work just aswell as any out there.

Hi tinman,

did you already made a short video of battery pulsing for low cost? Would appreciate much!

Thank you
magneto_DC

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Re: The Magneformer-lenzless transformer ?
« Reply #45 on: November 12, 2013, 11:45:07 AM »

Offline tinman

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Re: The Magneformer-lenzless transformer ?
« Reply #46 on: November 12, 2013, 11:57:28 AM »
Some information regarding the scope shots below.
As my scope,SG and power supply all have a common ground,i could not place my scope across the coil to measure voltage,nor across the .1 ohm 5 watt series resistor to measure current to the coil.
So i dug out my old home made, stand alone signal generator,and traded the power supply for a 12 SLA. this now gave me the means to measure the voltage across the drive coil,and the current going to it.
The one draw back is my home made SG is set at a 50% duty cycle,but this just makes the results a lot clearer.The frequency i can adjust,and got it as close as i could,as the home made SG is touchy on the pot adjustment.

So the yellow trace(ch1) is across the coil,and we can clearly see that we have an alternating voltage,although in a square wave.-but nothing out of the ordinary for this kind of setup.
NOTE-CH1 is also lifted 2 divisions
 to get it clear of ch2.
The blue trace(ch2)is across the .1 ohm 5w series resistor,that is hooked to the positive input of the driven coil.
At no point can you see the blue trace show an alternating current-only a change in current amplitude

The change in voltage polarity is because of the way the circuit is set up-nothing more.It is the same as the SSG circuit-and remember that the positive of our power supply,is also the negative for our charge battery.

Offline tinman

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Re: The Magneformer-lenzless transformer ?
« Reply #47 on: November 12, 2013, 12:08:59 PM »
Hi tinman,

did you already made a short video of battery pulsing for low cost? Would appreciate much!

Thank you
magneto_DC
Hi Magneto
I have made the device,but as yet havnt made the video. I will have it up for you within the next 24 hours-posted here,so as you can find it.

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Re: The Magneformer-lenzless transformer ?
« Reply #47 on: November 12, 2013, 12:08:59 PM »
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Offline JouleSeeker

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Re: The Magneformer-lenzless transformer ?
« Reply #48 on: November 12, 2013, 02:52:41 PM »
TK reply #36:
Quote
Many people are confused about what "AC" really means. But "transformer effect" doesn't depend on true alternating current in the primary of the transformer. Recall that induced voltage in a secondary is proportional to the time rate of change of... the magnetic field in the primary. And the magnetic field is proportional to the current (amp-turns). So if the current rises and falls, that's all that is needed for transformer induction effect to happen. The current doesn't have to actually reverse, it can keep going in the same direction, as long as the amplitude of the current rises and falls. This of course produces a change in the magnetic field. The secondary output will be true AC though, even if the input to the primary is pulsed DC or "AC" with enough DC offset so that the current doesn't actually reverse.
"dB/dt", the time rate of change of the B field, can be thought of as the instantaneous slope of the curve describing the B field strength over time. So while the B field is increasing, dB/dt is positive, and when the B field peaks dB/dt is zero, and when the B field is decreasing, dB/dt is negative. So the induced voltage in the secondary flips sign at the peaks (and valleys) of the current which is causing the primary B field to wax and wane.

Very clear, thank you.  As Tinman says, like passing a north pole over a coil, one gets AC output (as I've done many times.) 
  Tinman -- did I understand correctly that you have a steady DC input, making P-input easy to measure?
If so, how do you achieve steady DC input? 

Offline tinman

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Re: The Magneformer-lenzless transformer ?
« Reply #49 on: November 12, 2013, 05:15:05 PM »
TK reply #36:
Very clear, thank you.  As Tinman says, like passing a north pole over a coil, one gets AC output (as I've done many times.) 
  Tinman -- did I understand correctly that you have a steady DC input, making P-input easy to measure?
If so, how do you achieve steady DC input?

By useing large caps to store power.The amp meter go's between the power supply and caps.
At these high frequencies,and small current draw,the amp meter sees no ripple.The higher your current draw,the larger the caps you must use,and high current caps are better for this aswell.

Tomorrow i was going to test the accuracy of my meters reading pulsed DC current.
So i will video it aswell,and post it here,so as you can see what caps can do to smooth out pulses-both on P/in and P/out.

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Re: The Magneformer-lenzless transformer ?
« Reply #49 on: November 12, 2013, 05:15:05 PM »
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Offline JouleSeeker

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Re: The Magneformer-lenzless transformer ?
« Reply #50 on: November 13, 2013, 05:43:33 AM »
OK, makes sense.  Now you can measure the input energy using E = 1/2 CV^2.
Same formula for output cap (seems then you would need a FWBR to feed the output cap.)

Power = energy/time interval, same time interval for Pin and Pout.

AC output can also be dumped on a simple resistor immersed in water, and determine Eout (=Qout) using calorimetry.  This is quite easy to do actually, IMO.
... AS LONG AS your measurement techniques do not alter/diminish the effect you are trying to measure!

Offline MileHigh

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Re: The Magneformer-lenzless transformer ?
« Reply #51 on: November 13, 2013, 04:39:56 PM »
Tinman:

Your interpretation of your scope shots is spot on.  In the second scope shot where you see the increasing energizing current for the coil it looks to me to be about one-half of a time constant before the transistor switches off.

The issue of why you have a "magneformer" where you use a magnet as the core of your transformer remains.  I didn't see you explain at the beginng of the thread why you chose to use a magnet.  People can describe specific examples about the use of magnets in certain applications but they have nothing to do with your setup.  Is it for better performance?  If yes, what does that mean?  Now that you have done the build what kind of tests are you going to do to confirm (presumably) that the magnet in the core is doing what it is supposed to be doing?

The point here is that if you made a design decision to use a magnet, there is supposed to be a valid reason for it.  If the "valid reason" is that "'people know' that using a magnet does something special," but you have no specifics, then simply state that.

You know there is a peer pressure on the forums to always agree and almost never question your builder friends.  Like I have pointed out in the past, that just leads to stagnation.  People don't learn and next year and the year after the pattern repeats itself and they repeat the same mistakes over and over and no progress is made.

In the real world of electronics design you have to have valid reasons for your design choices that you can explain to your peers.  So you can address this issue or sweep it under the rug, it's your choice.  In the best-case scenario you would really think about this and do testing and arrive at the correct conclusion for your setup.

MileHigh

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Re: The Magneformer-lenzless transformer ?
« Reply #51 on: November 13, 2013, 04:39:56 PM »
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Offline tinman

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Re: The Magneformer-lenzless transformer ?
« Reply #52 on: November 13, 2013, 06:16:22 PM »
Tinman:

Your interpretation of your scope shots is spot on.  In the second scope shot where you see the increasing energizing current for the coil it looks to me to be about one-half of a time constant before the transistor switches off.

The issue of why you have a "magneformer" where you use a magnet as the core of your transformer remains.  I didn't see you explain at the beginng of the thread why you chose to use a magnet.  People can describe specific examples about the use of magnets in certain applications but they have nothing to do with your setup.  Is it for better performance?  If yes, what does that mean?  Now that you have done the build what kind of tests are you going to do to confirm (presumably) that the magnet in the core is doing what it is supposed to be doing?

The point here is that if you made a design decision to use a magnet, there is supposed to be a valid reason for it.  If the "valid reason" is that "'people know' that using a magnet does something special," but you have no specifics, then simply state that.

You know there is a peer pressure on the forums to always agree and almost never question your builder friends.  Like I have pointed out in the past, that just leads to stagnation.  People don't learn and next year and the year after the pattern repeats itself and they repeat the same mistakes over and over and no progress is made.

In the real world of electronics design you have to have valid reasons for your design choices that you can explain to your peers.  So you can address this issue or sweep it under the rug, it's your choice.  In the best-case scenario you would really think about this and do testing and arrive at the correct conclusion for your setup.

MileHigh

Your answers starts at post 19 MH,and guyla hit the nail on the head on post 24.
My idea is to make a transformer that is as efficient as it can be made here at home,and to show that PMs improve efficiency.
What im trying to do now,is to make sure all my meters are reading accuratly,and this is tricky,as my scope shares a common ground with my SG,and power supply. My home made SG dosnt have pulse width adjustment,only frequency adjustment. I am trying to make up a transformer based around the same priciples,but where i can remove the magnet,and replace it with a ferrite core of same dimentions-while the system is running. All these things take time,and i am working on them
My biggest problem is getting around this common ground between my three needed devices(scope,SG and PS)

Please remember-no one is shouting OU here,but the P/in and P/out so far,seem a little to close when we look at how roughly the device is made.

But a quick summery as to what i hope i have achieved.
The driven coil is to neutralise the PMs field in the tank coil.
When the driven coil is switched of,two things happen.
1-we collect the inductive kickback,and charge a battery with it.
2-the PMs field once again is induced into the tank coil. The lenz force is now between the PM and the tank coil. To me this is the PM doing the work,and is the reason we get a continual current flowing through the 18 ohm resistor-even when the driven coils energy has been depleeted.This can be clearly seen in the first scope shot i posted.
How is it that the primary coil is no longer pumping current into the charge battery,but the tank coil is still producing a current across the 18 ohm resistor? A bifilar coil would not do this,as i checked that today. A standard bifilar coil with an iron core reacts compleetly different. The bottom half of the tank circuit wave is flat.

Offline gyulasun

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Re: The Magneformer-lenzless transformer ?
« Reply #53 on: November 13, 2013, 10:25:28 PM »
...
I am trying to make up a transformer based around the same priciples, but where i can remove the magnet,and replace it with a ferrite core of same dimentions-while the system is running.
...

Hi Brad,

Please remember that the permeability of a permanent magnet is very close to that of the air (a PM is almost a 100% saturated piece of material) this means that you should not replace the magnet with a ferrite core because by doing so your coil would have a much higher self inductance than with the magnet inside. The best approach would be not to insert any core into the same coil when you remove the permanent magnet. Permeability figures for ceramic (i.e. ferrit) magnets is around 1.1 to 1.3 and for Neo magnets it is around  1.05 to 1.1 or so.  If you have an L meter and some air core coils around (or you can remove the core from a multiturn coil), you could see how small the inductance changes (increases a few percent) with a permanent magnet inserted into an air cored coil.

On your Atten scope: perhaps the best would be to contact the Atten service people to have the software in the scope check and reload once the Measure Menu does not have any content in it to choose from. 

Gyula

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Re: The Magneformer-lenzless transformer ?
« Reply #53 on: November 13, 2013, 10:25:28 PM »
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Offline Magluvin

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Re: The Magneformer-lenzless transformer ?
« Reply #54 on: November 14, 2013, 04:02:33 AM »
Hi Brad,

Please remember that the permeability of a permanent magnet is very close to that of the air (a PM is almost a 100% saturated piece of material) this means that you should not replace the magnet with a ferrite core because by doing so your coil would have a much higher self inductance than with the magnet inside. The best approach would be not to insert any core into the same coil when you remove the permanent magnet. Permeability figures for ceramic (i.e. ferrit) magnets is around 1.1 to 1.3 and for Neo magnets it is around  1.05 to 1.1 or so.  If you have an L meter and some air core coils around (or you can remove the core from a multiturn coil), you could see how small the inductance changes (increases a few percent) with a permanent magnet inserted into an air cored coil.

On your Atten scope: perhaps the best would be to contact the Atten service people to have the software in the scope check and reload once the Measure Menu does not have any content in it to choose from. 

Gyula

Hey Gyula

If the pulsed primary input field is opposing the permanent magnet, the core wont be saturated till the field of the magnet is flipped/reversed and then pushed further into saturation, if the input can deliver that much opposition to the cores permanent field. ;D A ferrite mag can be demagnetized, or even reversed eventually, that is again if the input is enough. Brad isnt putting that much power in so saturation shouldnt be an issue and the magnets should last for quite some time.

Mags



Offline tinman

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Re: The Magneformer-lenzless transformer ?
« Reply #55 on: November 14, 2013, 05:22:16 AM »
Hi Brad,

Please remember that the permeability of a permanent magnet is very close to that of the air (a PM is almost a 100% saturated piece of material) this means that you should not replace the magnet with a ferrite core because by doing so your coil would have a much higher self inductance than with the magnet inside. The best approach would be not to insert any core into the same coil when you remove the permanent magnet. Permeability figures for ceramic (i.e. ferrit) magnets is around 1.1 to 1.3 and for Neo magnets it is around  1.05 to 1.1 or so.  If you have an L meter and some air core coils around (or you can remove the core from a multiturn coil), you could see how small the inductance changes (increases a few percent) with a permanent magnet inserted into an air cored coil.

On your Atten scope: perhaps the best would be to contact the Atten service people to have the software in the scope check and reload once the Measure Menu does not have any content in it to choose from. 

Gyula

Hi Gyula
I will not be changing the core in the electromagnet,but only the generating inductor core-the tank coil. It will be set up the same as the picture i posted with the two horse shoe shaped magnets-1 electric,and 1 PM.

In regards to the scope-it seems that all who have this scope,have the same problem. This i have found out by browsing some reviews on the scope. Some seem to be loading software from another scope onto the atten(same scope,different name) ,but it comes at a risk.If the software dosnt take,then you just have a box full of parts,and it cant be reversed. I have contacted atten,and there is no software update for my modle yet.

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Re: The Magneformer-lenzless transformer ?
« Reply #55 on: November 14, 2013, 05:22:16 AM »
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Offline MileHigh

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Re: The Magneformer-lenzless transformer ?
« Reply #56 on: November 14, 2013, 05:59:32 AM »
Tinman:

I have to retract what I said in my posting #32 about your diagram and questions in your posting #19.  The reason is because your diagram confused me.  You use the exact same symbol for the permanent magnet and the electromagnet, right down to the red and blue rectangles.  So I thought the "electromagnet" was a second permanent magnet with a coil wrapped around it.

I read through Gyula's comments and pretty much agree with them.  I also believe that I see what your train of thought is.  You see the permanent magnet on the left as being the agent that is responsible for the change in flux through the inductor when the electromagnet switches off.  So the logic is that the permanent magnet is doing the work to change the flux through the inductor which then creates current to flow through the resistor.

That's all true but you have to look at the whole story as it unfolds in time.  This is in a way related to the SMOT thread where people are not comfortable with the concept of magnetic potential energy and how it "came from somewhere else" by virtue of position and it is being invisibly stored like a compressed invisible spring.

When you first switch on the electromagnet you have to pump an amount of energy into the electromagnet to generate the field to counteract the flux going through the inductor from the permanent magnet.  That will also cause changing flux with respect to time in the inductor and some energy will also flow through the resistor.

Then when you have DC current flowing through the electromagnet maintaining zero net flux through the inductor core (there are equal and opposite flux streams in the one-half core slices for net zero flux), you have magnetic potential energy stored in the stressed magnetic fields.  Then when you switch off the electromagnet the collapsing field from the electromagnet allows the permanent magnet to "take over" putting flux through the inductor core, and that also causes the current to flow and energy is burned off in the resistor.

I am just giving you a general description of what is happening.  The key thing is that the permanent magnet is not "doing work," rather, it's being stressed and storing some magnetic potential energy, and then when it is unstressed it's releasing that magnetic potential energy.  There are no gains here.

Even though your diagram is relatively simple, if you had this problem in an electronics class, you would make a timing diagram where you have the switch closing and then opening, and you track all of various variables.  If you constructed a timing diagram you should see how everything balances.

Another way to describe what is happening is as follows:  When the electromagnet is off, the permanent magnet is responsible for the flux through the inductor core.  Let's call that the unstressed condition of the core.  When the electromagnet switches on, it "pushes out" half of the downwards flux inside the core due to the permanent magnet and sets up a counter stream of flux going in the opposite direction.  Here we have the rare occurrence of a real true to life Bloch wall going down the center of the core.  This is the stressed condition.  It took work to create the stressed condition, and that's now stored magnetic potential energy.  So the permanent magnet is being stressed and storing energy that the electromagnet put into it.  When you cut the current to the electromagnet, the permanent magnet pushes back with its stored potential energy and "reoccupies" the inductor core with its flux and you are back to the unstressed condition.

It's all about accepting the notion that any permanent magnet can only appear to be a source of energy because someone or something else did some work to store potential energy in the magnet in the first place and the magnet can only give back as much as you put into it.

MileHigh

Offline MileHigh

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Re: The Magneformer-lenzless transformer ?
« Reply #57 on: November 14, 2013, 06:49:37 AM »
Dammit Janet... I love you!  lol

Quote
My idea is to make a transformer that is as efficient as it can be made here at home,and to show that PMs improve efficiency.

Got it.

For getting around the common ground issue you could get isolation transformers for your scope, signal generator and use batteries or get a isolation transformer for your power supply.  They might be expensive, I don't know.  When it comes to stuff like that safety is a priority and I would not be comfortable using my own home brew isolation transformers.  I would recommend using batteries and making your own current measurements.  I think it's safe to assume that your multimeter is better at measuring current than what you see on the power supply display.

Quote
The driven coil is to neutralise the PMs field in the tank coil.
When the driven coil is switched of,two things happen.
1-we collect the inductive kickback,and charge a battery with it.
2-the PMs field once again is induced into the tank coil. The lenz force is now between the PM and the tank coil. To me this is the PM doing the work,and is the reason we get a continual current flowing through the 18 ohm resistor-even when the driven coils energy has been depleeted.This can be clearly seen in the first scope shot i posted.

The reason you get the continuous current flowing through the resistor is because of the LC tank circuit.  The voltage across the 18-ohm resistor is the tank circuit voltage.  Your transistor pulse going through the primary is continually hitting your LC tank circuit with an injection of energy, so I don't see why you would find it significant that the current is always flowing through the resistor.  The average power being burned off in the resistor plus the average power being burned off in the wire is exactly equal to the average power being supplied by the secondary, which also happens to be the 'L' in the tank circuit.  You might have a Fluke true-RMS multimeter and I would use its measurement as opposed to your scope's measurement for the RMS voltage.  You should be able to make a quite accurate power measurement for that part of the circuit.  Since you know the pulse frequency you know the amount of energy per pulse for what it's worth.

Anyway, your quest is a great idea and a great exercise.  I can see that you are doing filtering to make good current measurements and stuff like that.  It should be interesting to see what your results are.

MileHigh

Offline MileHigh

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Re: The Magneformer-lenzless transformer ?
« Reply #58 on: November 14, 2013, 07:46:20 AM »
Brad:

As Gyula said your scope may need a firmware upgrade and you should check their web site.  You typically download a file and put it on a flash drive.  Then when you power up the scope while pushing on one or two buttons and that triggers the firmware update.

Gyula:

Quote
Please remember that the permeability of a permanent magnet is very close to that of the air (a PM is almost a 100% saturated piece of material) this means that you should not replace the magnet with a ferrite core because by doing so your coil would have a much higher self inductance than with the magnet inside. The best approach would be not to insert any core into the same coil when you remove the permanent magnet. Permeability figures for ceramic (i.e. ferrit) magnets is around 1.1 to 1.3 and for Neo magnets it is around  1.05 to 1.1 or so.  If you have an L meter and some air core coils around (or you can remove the core from a multiturn coil), you could see how small the inductance changes (increases a few percent) with a permanent magnet inserted into an air cored coil.

I didn't know that a magnet would have such a low relative permeability.  You still might be able to take advantage of the polarization though as has already been stated.  Note the excitation from the primary coil is unidirectional.  This assumes the relative permeability is radically different depending on the direction of the external field.  It would be an interesting and easy test.  You just have to look at the slope of the current rise in the coil for same-direction and opposite-direction magnetic field generation by the coil wrapped around the magnetic core.  You cross your fingers and hope that you don't ruin the magnet.

I also wonder if the L-meter will be thrown off by the introduction of a magnet into the coil.  I assume they sample or sweep low-level AC frequency excitation for the coil under test and check the response to measure the inductance.  So if the magnet does indeed radically change in relative permeability depending on direction it may have a small heart attack (throw off the measurement algorithm).  It probably will read out as a high inductance - my guess.

Another point is that this is a transformer setup, not an inductance.  So assuming the core (any core) is coupling the energy properly, you _don't_ see inductance on the primary, you see the load, which is an LCR circuit.  So you see a wobbling resistance!  lol  Note since you are approximately at resonance, you are pretty much seeing the resistive component of the LCR circuit as the load of the primary.  So that means that Brad should see the voltage and current going into the primary winding as mostly in phase, assuming that the core/coupling is doing it's job properly to transfer the power.

MileHigh

Offline tinman

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Re: The Magneformer-lenzless transformer ?
« Reply #59 on: November 14, 2013, 08:24:17 AM »
Tinman:

I have to retract what I said in my posting #32 about your diagram and questions in your posting #19.  The reason is because your diagram confused me.  You use the exact same symbol for the permanent magnet and the electromagnet, right down to the red and blue rectangles.  So I thought the "electromagnet" was a second permanent magnet with a coil wrapped around it.

I read through Gyula's comments and pretty much agree with them.  I also believe that I see what your train of thought is.  You see the permanent magnet on the left as being the agent that is responsible for the change in flux through the inductor when the electromagnet switches off.  So the logic is that the permanent magnet is doing the work to change the flux through the inductor which then creates current to flow through the resistor.

That's all true but you have to look at the whole story as it unfolds in time.  This is in a way related to the SMOT thread where people are not comfortable with the concept of magnetic potential energy and how it "came from somewhere else" by virtue of position and it is being invisibly stored like a compressed invisible spring.

When you first switch on the electromagnet you have to pump an amount of energy into the electromagnet to generate the field to counteract the flux going through the inductor from the permanent magnet.  That will also cause changing flux with respect to time in the inductor and some energy will also flow through the resistor.

Then when you have DC current flowing through the electromagnet maintaining zero net flux through the inductor core (there are equal and opposite flux streams in the one-half core slices for net zero flux), you have magnetic potential energy stored in the stressed magnetic fields.  Then when you switch off the electromagnet the collapsing field from the electromagnet allows the permanent magnet to "take over" putting flux through the inductor core, and that also causes the current to flow and energy is burned off in the resistor.

I am just giving you a general description of what is happening.  The key thing is that the permanent magnet is not "doing work," rather, it's being stressed and storing some magnetic potential energy, and then when it is unstressed it's releasing that magnetic potential energy.  There are no gains here.

Even though your diagram is relatively simple, if you had this problem in an electronics class, you would make a timing diagram where you have the switch closing and then opening, and you track all of various variables.  If you constructed a timing diagram you should see how everything balances.

Another way to describe what is happening is as follows:  When the electromagnet is off, the permanent magnet is responsible for the flux through the inductor core.  Let's call that the unstressed condition of the core.  When the electromagnet switches on, it "pushes out" half of the downwards flux inside the core due to the permanent magnet and sets up a counter stream of flux going in the opposite direction.  Here we have the rare occurrence of a real true to life Bloch wall going down the center of the core.  This is the stressed condition.  It took work to create the stressed condition, and that's now stored magnetic potential energy.  So the permanent magnet is being stressed and storing energy that the electromagnet put into it.  When you cut the current to the electromagnet, the permanent magnet pushes back with its stored potential energy and "reoccupies" the inductor core with its flux and you are back to the unstressed condition.

It's all about accepting the notion that any permanent magnet can only appear to be a source of energy because someone or something else did some work to store potential energy in the magnet in the first place and the magnet can only give back as much as you put into it.

MileHigh
Hi MH

Well by now,you will know im not so good at drawing diagrams or schematic's,but do my best to show something that resembles what im trying to show.

In regards to your last paragraph Quote: It's all about accepting the notion that any permanent magnet can only appear to be a source of energy because someone or something else did some work to store potential energy in the magnet in the first place and the magnet can only give back as much as you put into it.
 
Well some where i have a device that shows different,and i have been trying to find it for the last 3 days. But as we not long ago shifted house,most of my junk stuff is still in boxes,and which box my setup is in?-i have no idea yet,as i havnt found it.

But where im at now was based around the results i got from that little setup. It was based around a mixture of Tom's MEG and the flynn device.
My results were as follows,and the setup was like the one i posted the sketch of.

With just the inductor(electromagnet)on it's own,it would consume !lets say! 300mWatts.
From our inductive kickback ,we could get back !lets say! 150mWatts.

Now with the secondary coil in placeTank coil),with a resistor acorss it.
The P/in to the inductor(electromagnet) rose to say 350mWatts.
Our p/out from the inductive kickback droped down to 130mWatts
And the power across the resistor from the secondary (tank)coil was say 20mWatts
So the total in P/out remained about the same,but the P/in increased.

Now with the horse shoe magnet on the other side of the secondary(tank)coil-as per diagram.
P/in droped back down to 300mWatts.
P/out from inductive kickback rose to 170mWatts.
P/out from the secondary (tank)coil rose to 35mWatts.

So from this we can see that by adding the secondary coil with a load across it,and the magnet,the P/in didnt change.
But we also see that the total P/out rose,and that was only possable with the PM in place.
By replacing the PM with a horse shoe shaped ferrite core,the P/in would rise once again to 350mWatts-infact it was actualy a higher value than that.

(Note-the above figures are to give an indication of the effect in the experiment,and may not reflect the actual values i had back the-memory just isnt that good.)

This told me that the PM could be the only source for the extra P/out,as the P/in was the same with or without the PM and secondary combination there.
Now when i say the PM was the only source for the extra P/out,this can be seen in two ways.
1st-the PM provided the extra energy.
2nd-the PM was the only thing that could make the transformer become more efficient.
But no matter which way you look at it-the PM was the source of that energy gain Wether is was providing energy,or makeing the transformer more efficient dosnt realy matter. What matters is that it dose work- the PM dose make the transformer more efficient than it would be with just the ferrite core there.

 

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