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Author Topic: Even more simplified experiment to show OU using artificial gravity  (Read 14861 times)

Offline telecom

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Re: Even more simplified experiment to show OU using artificial gravity
« Reply #15 on: November 10, 2013, 12:46:11 AM »
I think I know what you mean - the chain is not rigid enough to transfer the torque positively.

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Offline nybtorque

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Re: Even more simplified experiment to show OU using artificial gravity
« Reply #16 on: November 10, 2013, 01:23:31 PM »

 
@nybtorque:  I believe pumping water is not the same because you must constantly accelerate new mass as new water enters, and that will require additional work.





Yes, but that is exactly what the centrifugal force of the rotating "garden hose" is doing!


Consider replacing the the thread and bottle opener with a hose filled with water and rotate it... Lets say its an 3/4" hose and its 2m long and you swing it above your head at 96 rpm (10 rad/s). That equals 0.57 kg of water, and with the center of the water mass rotating with a 1m radius, we get the force Fc=10^2*0.57*1=57N and kinetic energy Ek=10^2*1^2*0.57/2=28.5J.


So what mass of water do you need  to reach equilibrium with the rest of the hose hanging down at the center of the rotation? Well, to get m*g=57N you need 5.7kg of water to keep the rotating water from escaping through the open end of the hose...   Thats a 20m long hose hanging straight down...


But, what if the it is only 2m (suction head) from the swinging hose above your head to the water bucket you're trying to pump? What will happen?


The way I see it, there will be a net force of 51.3 N acting on the rotating water wanting it to escape. That would translate to an average pressure of 180 kPa in the 3/4" hose.


Of course new water will need to be accelerated at all times. With a mass of 0.57 kg rotating, it will accelerate by the centrifugal force at 90 m/s2 (F=ma) from 0 velocity at the center of equilibrium to an escape velocity of 9.5 m/s at the open end of the hose. That equals a flow of about 2.7 l/s and a pumping power of 487W...  And this is just by keep rotation at the same rpm, i.e. no extra kinetic energy have to be added since the mass, radius and angular velocity is unchanged.

Offline LibreEnergia

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Re: Even more simplified experiment to show OU using artificial gravity
« Reply #17 on: November 10, 2013, 11:15:02 PM »
Lets consider the experiment below. A bottle opener and a garlic press, connected with a thin thread through a ring. Hold the ring between your fingers and spin the bottle opener around to reach an equilibrium where the the centrifugal force of the rotating bottle opener keeps the garlic press in a constant position.


If we assume that the mass of the garlic press is 200g and the bottle opener mass is 50g and the radius of rotation is 20cm we need a rotational speed of 14 rad/s, i.e. 2.25 Hz.


To keep this rotational speed and equilibrium we need 0.2J of kinetic energy invested in the rotation.


This is all fine. But lets say we increase the rotational speed a little. What will happen?


Of course the garlic press will begin to move upwards since the centrifugal force will become larger than the gravitational force pulling the garlic press down... Actually, in theory an infinitesimal increase of kinetic energy (a one time energy input) in rotation of the bottle opener will be enough for a continuos movement (acceleration) against gravity for the garlic press and thereby an continuos increase in potential energy, i.e. infinite overunity...

Enjoy!

Your analysis is incorrect.

In the equilibrium position the gravitational potential energy of the garlic press would equal the energy of the rotating bottle opener. If you increase the rotation speed by applying work the garlic press moves up increasing its gravitation potential energy.
AND the radius of the rotation of the bottle opener increases.

If you do the sums you will find that the increase in in GPE = the increase in rotational kinetic energy  = work supplied to the system and the system finds a new equilibrium point. No excess of energy is left over and that is what would be required if it were 'OU'.

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Re: Even more simplified experiment to show OU using artificial gravity
« Reply #17 on: November 10, 2013, 11:15:02 PM »
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Offline nybtorque

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Re: Even more simplified experiment to show OU using artificial gravity
« Reply #18 on: November 11, 2013, 05:28:51 AM »
Your analysis is incorrect.

In the equilibrium position the gravitational potential energy of the garlic press would equal the energy of the rotating bottle opener. If you increase the rotation speed by applying work the garlic press moves up increasing its gravitation potential energy.
AND the radius of the rotation of the bottle opener increases.

If you do the sums you will find that the increase in in GPE = the increase in rotational kinetic energy  = work supplied to the system and the system finds a new equilibrium point. No excess of energy is left over and that is what would be required if it were 'OU'.


Well, that is exactly what I described in a later post. However, I came to a different conclusion. So please show me your numbers for exactly what happens with the potential energy of the garlic press if you increase the kinetic energy of the bottle opener with a specific amount... Only stating that my analysis is incorrect doesn't do it for me unless you show me where! It should be easy enough.



Clue: you need to explain it using the following equations;
w2 * mbo * r  = mgp * g    (the force equilibrium regardless of w and r) and 
Ekin = 1/2 * w2 * r2 * mbo (kinetic energy, regardless of w and r) and
Epot = mgp * g * (rafter-rbefore) (potential energy after the increase in Ek which will result in a new equilibrium with a new w and r)
 


« Last Edit: November 11, 2013, 11:21:53 AM by nybtorque »

Offline broli

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Re: Even more simplified experiment to show OU using artificial gravity
« Reply #19 on: November 11, 2013, 10:21:51 PM »
Take a look at this torque increasing drive wheel, as the blue disk rotates with all the attached gears and weights, the weights will want to move outward.
 
The outward movement rotates the center gear with increased torque dependent on the RPM of the disk and the value of the weights.
The system cannot produce back torque or it would be able to do work from gravity and this is impossible, but the increase in torque could be valuable if used correctly.
If an electric motor was used to turn the disk then the weights would simply fly outward and the center gear would rotate the same speed as the disk, but as a load on the center gear increases, like from a generator under load, the weights would want to rotate back inward to the 90 degree position as shown. This applies no additional load on the driving motor.
 
Now, if the generator was connected to a load like the grid, where the load could sink very large currents, a circuit could be built to keep the weights at the 90 degree point by varying the load on the generator. The motor is now free to spin the disk faster and faster, further increasing the output without any additional load but with huge additional output.
 
Centrifugal force put to work.

It's good to be optimistic, but the only way to know what you said is true or not is to build and experiment. If you want I can help.

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Re: Even more simplified experiment to show OU using artificial gravity
« Reply #19 on: November 11, 2013, 10:21:51 PM »
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Offline lumen

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Re: Even more simplified experiment to show OU using artificial gravity
« Reply #20 on: November 12, 2013, 04:50:36 AM »
It's good to be optimistic, but the only way to know what you said is true or not is to build and experiment. If you want I can help.

I seen some problems in the previous design so I made some changes and now......OU?
It's very simple and is OU!

Well I suppose I might be a bit optimistic but now none of the back torque on the generator will be felt in the main drive wheel.
If torque had any effect on the wheel, then one could simply put a spring to apply torque on the outer sprockets and the wheel would turn forever which is impossible.

So even though the generators will exert back torque into the outer sprocket, that torque is simply applied to the center stationary sprocket.

In effect, the wheel could be turned by hand and generate huge amounts of power, or a tiny motor could generate thousands of watts of output.

Offline lumen

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Re: Even more simplified experiment to show OU using artificial gravity
« Reply #21 on: November 12, 2013, 01:08:58 PM »
I believe the problem in the previous design is in the fact that the rotation of the large disk is also the device that rotates the smaller working components. This means that resistance to rotation in the working components also results in resistance to rotation of the large disk.

In the new design, the working outer sprocket never rotates and is essentially a stationary platform moving in a circle. The artificial gravity generated then is moving in a circle around this stationary platform. If the direction of gravity on earth was rotating, one could simply build an offset wheel and generate power. Luckily, Earths gravity does not rotate because other things would suck, but now you see the point.

Because of the one to one sprocket gearing, applying any amount of torque on the outer sprocket, no torque is applied to the large disk. So in effect, no back torque can be see in this generating system.

Does anyone see anything different?
 Or is that it, Game Over!
« Last Edit: November 12, 2013, 04:15:35 PM by lumen »

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Re: Even more simplified experiment to show OU using artificial gravity
« Reply #21 on: November 12, 2013, 01:08:58 PM »
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Offline broli

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Re: Even more simplified experiment to show OU using artificial gravity
« Reply #22 on: November 12, 2013, 08:59:20 PM »
The sprockets cannot be completely independent of the big wheel can they, unless I'm misunderstanding the concept. To me it looks like the countertorque of the generator will be projected on the big wheel. It's just like someone grabbing the chain with his hands, the whole thing will grind to a halt.

Offline lumen

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Re: Even more simplified experiment to show OU using artificial gravity
« Reply #23 on: November 12, 2013, 09:21:44 PM »
The sprockets cannot be completely independent of the big wheel can they, unless I'm misunderstanding the concept. To me it looks like the countertorque of the generator will be projected on the big wheel. It's just like someone grabbing the chain with his hands, the whole thing will grind to a halt.

That's what makes this so interesting!
You need to ask yourself if there is any way the large wheel would turn by applying a torque to the outer sprocket when the inner sprocket is mounted stationary (not on the big wheel).
The answer is yes, only if the two sprockets are of different sizes. When the inner and outer sprockets are the same size, then it is impossible to make the big wheel rotate by applying any torque to the outer sprocket when the center sprocket is mounted stationary.
If the big wheel can see no torque from the outer sprocket, then what is there that could apply any back torque on the big wheel when generator loading occurs?
I don't know!...... That's why I'm asking.
 
The only thing the big wheel would see is the mass of the generators and weights.
 
By torqueing the outer sprocket the only thing the occurs is the compression of the solid mass through the centerlines of the sprockets and the stretching of the chain at the outer edge of the sprockets.
Do you think that there might be a force vector that does not pass directly through the center of the big wheel when torque is applied to the outer sprocket?
 
If the big wheel could rotate from a torque applied on the outer sprocket then we could build a sensitive wheel and place magnets on the outer sprocket, then because the outer sprockets do not rotate, the earths magnetic field could apply a constant torque and the wheel would run for nothing!

 
 

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Re: Even more simplified experiment to show OU using artificial gravity
« Reply #23 on: November 12, 2013, 09:21:44 PM »
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Offline lumen

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Re: Even more simplified experiment to show OU using artificial gravity
« Reply #24 on: November 13, 2013, 04:41:21 PM »
I believe the problem in making any of these devices work as imagined, depends on which components the torque is applied or more so, the reference from which the torque is applied.

Torque applied to the outer sprocket from the external or stationary frame cannot make the large wheel rotate, but torque applied from the frame of the large wheel can rotate the wheel.

It seems the answer is somewhere in this type of wheel, locked between gravity and centrifugal force.



Offline AB Hammer

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Re: Even more simplified experiment to show OU using artificial gravity
« Reply #25 on: November 13, 2013, 05:50:49 PM »
 lumen
I like the version on you post on Reply #12 best. But it won't work as I have played with this before. But there are other roads you should look at for secondary uses. I have seen people use this approach for mechanical anti gravity as well.
 
It is not always our journeys end but what we learn on the way.
Alan
 
 

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Re: Even more simplified experiment to show OU using artificial gravity
« Reply #25 on: November 13, 2013, 05:50:49 PM »
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Offline lumen

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Re: Even more simplified experiment to show OU using artificial gravity
« Reply #26 on: November 14, 2013, 12:41:19 AM »
AB
Yes I like that one too but I believe it's no different than directly driving the center sprocket with the big wheel.
It would be the same if the outer sprockets were bolted directly to the big wheel.
 
So now we can use two Gyro wheels to maintain position for half the generator and drive it with centrifugal force, both independent of the rotating wheel.
 I added a short video of operation.
 

Offline AB Hammer

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Re: Even more simplified experiment to show OU using artificial gravity
« Reply #27 on: November 14, 2013, 02:38:57 AM »
AB
Yes I like that one too but I believe it's no different than directly driving the center sprocket with the big wheel.
It would be the same if the outer sprockets were bolted directly to the big wheel.
 
So now we can use two Gyro wheels to maintain position for half the generator and drive it with centrifugal force, both independent of the rotating wheel.
 I added a short video of operation.

lumen

 But what is going to power the Gyros? Many things can work as a Gyro, but something has to power them. From your video you can use more of a pendulum instead for it will not require power.

Offline lumen

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Re: Even more simplified experiment to show OU using artificial gravity
« Reply #28 on: November 14, 2013, 02:55:39 AM »
I have an even better way!
2 wheels connected like a steam engine for the stationary drive.
 
 
Nope! The stationary frame of reference must be from a point on the main wheel just like the other source, the centrifugal weights.
Any external source will apply work against the wheel.
The Gyro's are the way...... unless the torque against the gyro's will cause them to slow faster and require more power.
I need to look into this but it's centrifugal force operating the gyro's also, so it could be that the faster they spin the less they will slow down at a given torque.
 
 

Offline lumen

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Re: Even more simplified experiment to show OU using artificial gravity
« Reply #29 on: November 14, 2013, 05:47:30 PM »
It's possible that the steam engine parallel connecting rod idea could work if the wheels rotated in opposite directions.
This would require some type of sliding or extending rod, but it would apply the resistance to rotation of one wheel to assist the other and this might cancel the counter torque against the wheel.
 

 

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