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Author Topic: Even more simplified experiment to show OU using artificial gravity  (Read 14860 times)

Offline nybtorque

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Lets consider the experiment below. A bottle opener and a garlic press, connected with a thin thread through a ring. Hold the ring between your fingers and spin the bottle opener around to reach an equilibrium where the the centrifugal force of the rotating bottle opener keeps the garlic press in a constant position.


If we assume that the mass of the garlic press is 200g and the bottle opener mass is 50g and the radius of rotation is 20cm we need a rotational speed of 14 rad/s, i.e. 2.25 Hz.


To keep this rotational speed and equilibrium we need 0.2J of kinetic energy invested in the rotation.


This is all fine. But lets say we increase the rotational speed a little. What will happen?


Of course the garlic press will begin to move upwards since the centrifugal force will become larger than the gravitational force pulling the garlic press down... Actually, in theory an infinitesimal increase of kinetic energy (a one time energy input) in rotation of the bottle opener will be enough for a continuos movement (acceleration) against gravity for the garlic press and thereby an continuos increase in potential energy, i.e. infinite overunity...


Enjoy!


NT


 








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Offline telecom

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Re: Even more simplified experiment to show OU using artificial gravity
« Reply #1 on: November 07, 2013, 06:48:02 PM »
Lets consider the experiment below. A bottle opener and a garlic press, connected with a thin thread through a ring. Hold the ring between your fingers and spin the bottle opener around to reach an equilibrium where the the centrifugal force of the rotating bottle opener keeps the garlic press in a constant position.


If we assume that the mass of the garlic press is 200g and the bottle opener mass is 50g and the radius of rotation is 20cm we need a rotational speed of 14 rad/s, i.e. 2.25 Hz.


To keep this rotational speed and equilibrium we need 0.2J of kinetic energy invested in the rotation.


This is all fine. But lets say we increase the rotational speed a little. What will happen?


Of course the garlic press will begin to move upwards since the centrifugal force will become larger than the gravitational force pulling the garlic press down... Actually, in theory an infinitesimal increase of kinetic energy (a one time energy input) in rotation of the bottle opener will be enough for a continuos movement (acceleration) against gravity for the garlic press and thereby an continuos increase in potential energy, i.e. infinite overunity...


Enjoy!


NT


 
Hi,
can you please draw a diagram of your experiment since I have a hard following of what should be rotated and what should rise
against the gravity . Also, how you have calculated the forces, using a centrifugal force equation or Lagrange?
Regards.

Offline fletcher

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Re: Even more simplified experiment to show OU using artificial gravity
« Reply #2 on: November 07, 2013, 10:04:12 PM »


...snip... To keep this rotational speed and equilibrium we need 0.2J of kinetic energy invested in the rotation.


IINM .. the 0.2 joules of energy invested to maintain equilibrium of forces is the amount of energy inputted to overcome windage [drag forces] of the bottle opener & rotating wire ?!

N.B. for a constant velocity [rpm] if we know the drag force [proportional to the square of the speed] & the circumference of the circle at radius 20cm then f x d = joules of energy expended - since the drag force is a function of air mass [e.g. Force in Newtons = Cd.1/2(air density).velocity^2.frontal area] then according to Newton's Laws we must input muscle energy equivalent to the energy lost to air drag.



This is all fine. But lets say we increase the rotational speed a little. What will happen?


Of course the garlic press will begin to move upwards since the centrifugal force will become larger than the gravitational force pulling the garlic press down... Actually, in theory an infinitesimal increase of kinetic energy (a one time energy input) in rotation of the bottle opener will be enough for a continuous movement (acceleration) against gravity for the garlic press and thereby an continuous increase in potential energy, i.e. infinite overunity...



Force [N's] = mass x acceleration

Centrifugal force = Centripetal force = m.v^2/r

Gravity force = Weight force = m.g where 'g' = 9.81 m/s^2

1. A small increase in muscle input energy will break the equilibrium of forces & increase rpm & velocity of the bottle opener [bo] - this will also increase air drag proportionately since it is a factor of air velocity squared.

2. the Cf's acting on the bo will increase by the square of the velocity so that the Cf is greater than the weight force of the suspended mass.

3. since Cf's [mv^2/r] > mg the suspended mass will rise upwards gaining Pe [mgh in joules].

4. the radius of rotation will increase to greater than 20 cm.

5. the Cf will reduce because of a greater radius.

Questions:

a. does the Potential Energy [Pe] gained by the suspended mass ever exceed the excess muscle energy input required to maintain the new & higher rpm ?

b. is there ever a situation using a mechanical assembly of any sort where Pe gained is greater than the input energy ?




Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Even more simplified experiment to show OU using artificial gravity
« Reply #2 on: November 07, 2013, 10:04:12 PM »
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Offline lumen

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Re: Even more simplified experiment to show OU using artificial gravity
« Reply #3 on: November 08, 2013, 01:35:18 AM »
Take a look at this torque increasing drive wheel, as the blue disk rotates with all the attached gears and weights, the weights will want to move outward.
 
The outward movement rotates the center gear with increased torque dependent on the RPM of the disk and the value of the weights.
The system cannot produce back torque or it would be able to do work from gravity and this is impossible, but the increase in torque could be valuable if used correctly.
If an electric motor was used to turn the disk then the weights would simply fly outward and the center gear would rotate the same speed as the disk, but as a load on the center gear increases, like from a generator under load, the weights would want to rotate back inward to the 90 degree position as shown. This applies no additional load on the driving motor.
 
Now, if the generator was connected to a load like the grid, where the load could sink very large currents, a circuit could be built to keep the weights at the 90 degree point by varying the load on the generator. The motor is now free to spin the disk faster and faster, further increasing the output without any additional load but with huge additional output.
 
Centrifugal force put to work.
 

Offline telecom

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Re: Even more simplified experiment to show OU using artificial gravity
« Reply #4 on: November 08, 2013, 02:30:51 AM »
Hi Lumen,
I presume the blue disk is rotating ACW?

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Re: Even more simplified experiment to show OU using artificial gravity
« Reply #4 on: November 08, 2013, 02:30:51 AM »
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Offline telecom

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Re: Even more simplified experiment to show OU using artificial gravity
« Reply #5 on: November 08, 2013, 03:31:52 AM »
Hi Lumen,
I presume the blue disk is rotating ACW?
Sorry,
I ment CCW.

Offline lumen

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Re: Even more simplified experiment to show OU using artificial gravity
« Reply #6 on: November 08, 2013, 03:34:30 AM »
Hi Lumen,
I presume the blue disk is rotating ACW?

It could rotate either direction but it makes sense to rotate this setup ACW because of where the weights are.
 
I have done some simulation testing and this is at least a very interesting configuration in that the torque on the output is based solely on the weights, without them there is no output torque.
 
I plan to build a small test setup with some small DC motors to test the idea.
 

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Re: Even more simplified experiment to show OU using artificial gravity
« Reply #6 on: November 08, 2013, 03:34:30 AM »
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Offline telecom

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Re: Even more simplified experiment to show OU using artificial gravity
« Reply #7 on: November 08, 2013, 04:37:16 AM »
This concept of yours looks very similar to UE.
http://www.universalengines.com.au/how-ue-works
Please keep us posted on the progress.

Offline lumen

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Re: Even more simplified experiment to show OU using artificial gravity
« Reply #8 on: November 08, 2013, 05:05:55 AM »
I agree it is almost the same, but his is overly complicated in that he is trying to time out the imbalance.
(actually after reading some of his work, I believe it's the same principal)

The same thing can be done even easier than I have shown using just four sprockets and some chain on the wheel. (+ the weights)
 
I have been an engineer for over 30 years and though I am sure this can't work, I don't see why!
The torque on the output is totally decoupled from the drive. If this was not so than a similar setup could be use to build a gravity wheel.
It's like the weights can be continuously falling as the wheel turns, driving the output, and the faster it turns is like stronger gravity.
If anyone knows why this does not work, then speak up so I don't need to build it!
 

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Even more simplified experiment to show OU using artificial gravity
« Reply #8 on: November 08, 2013, 05:05:55 AM »
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Offline nybtorque

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Re: Even more simplified experiment to show OU using artificial gravity
« Reply #9 on: November 08, 2013, 07:15:48 AM »



IINM .. the 0.2 joules of energy invested to maintain equilibrium of forces is the amount of energy inputted to overcome windage [drag forces] of the bottle opener & rotating wire ?!

N.B. for a constant velocity [rpm] if we know the drag force [proportional to the square of the speed] & the circumference of the circle at radius 20cm then f x d = joules of energy expended - since the drag force is a function of air mass [e.g. Force in Newtons = Cd.1/2(air density).velocity^2.frontal area] then according to Newton's Laws we must input muscle energy equivalent to the energy lost to air drag.



The 0.2 J of kinetic energy E=( m * w^2 * r^2 ) / 2, where w is angular velocity (rad/s),  i.e.   (0.05 * 0.2^2 * 14.1^2 ) / 2 =0.2 J. I assume no friction from windage.

Force [N's] = mass x acceleration

Centrifugal force = Centripetal force = m.v^2/r

Gravity force = Weight force = m.g where 'g' = 9.81 m/s^2

1. A small increase in muscle input energy will break the equilibrium of forces & increase rpm & velocity of the bottle opener [bo] - this will also increase air drag proportionately since it is a factor of air velocity squared.

2. the Cf's acting on the bo will increase by the square of the velocity so that the Cf is greater than the weight force of the suspended mass.

3. since Cf's [mv^2/r] > mg the suspended mass will rise upwards gaining Pe [mgh in joules].

4. the radius of rotation will increase to greater than 20 cm.

5. the Cf will reduce because of a greater radius.

Questions:

a. does the Potential Energy [Pe] gained by the suspended mass ever exceed the excess muscle energy input required to maintain the new & higher rpm ?

b. is there ever a situation using a mechanical assembly of any sort where Pe gained is greater than the input energy ?



It is easy to calculate an example to answer the questions. If we start with my example of equilibrium, where 0.2 J of kinetic energy is invested for force equilibrium. Then, lets say we invest another 0.2 J in the rotation using finger and arm muscles, total kinetic energy is now 0.4 J. What will happen?


As Fletcher stated RPM will increase, the radius of the rotating BO will increase and the GP will move upwards in search for a new force equilibrium. This will be found sooner or later because energy is proportional to radius squared and force to radius (non squared).


Now we have two unkowns, w (new rpm) and r (new radius), but we have two equations as well: 


(1)The new kinetic energy of our system: E(new) = w(new)^2 * r(new)^2 * m(bo) / 2 = 0.4 J    and 


(2)The new force equilibrium: w(new)^2 * r(new) * m(bo) = m(gp) * g


=>   r(new) = 2*E(new) / ( m(gp) * g )  =   0.4 m


The adding of 0.2 J  in kinetic energy actually lifted the m(gp) 0.2 m (since the radius increased from 0.2m->0.4m). How much potential energy is that?


Well, by lifting the garlic press 0.2 m we get 0.2kg*g*0.2m = 0.4 J...




The result is by investing another 0.2 J of kinetic energy in the rotation we get TWICE back in gained potential energy. This is done by using the "artificial" gravity caused by rotation (centrifugal/centripetal force). 


I believe pumping water the same way is even more interesting since we do not have to deal with increased radius and rpm...

Offline TechStuf

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Re: Even more simplified experiment to show OU using artificial gravity
« Reply #10 on: November 08, 2013, 09:08:45 AM »
I'm afraid Viktor Schauberger beat us all to the punch bowl.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GctFKIp8uXI

And look what he got to show for it, even way back then.  Before the hydra dared dream of commandeering local space.

Your computations mean little on the page.  Especially in this day and age.  Should one manage a real go of things....

He should be aware that the hydra doesn't like competition.  And in a world where the truth, what remains, is often but a lie undiscovered, if such were allowed to proliferate, it could only be with the beast's blessing.

http://www.rense.com/general54/babalc.htm

Beware of geeks bearing gifts.


TS

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Even more simplified experiment to show OU using artificial gravity
« Reply #10 on: November 08, 2013, 09:08:45 AM »
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Offline telecom

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Re: Even more simplified experiment to show OU using artificial gravity
« Reply #11 on: November 08, 2013, 12:05:37 PM »
I agree it is almost the same, but his is overly complicated in that he is trying to time out the imbalance.
(actually after reading some of his work, I believe it's the same principal)

The same thing can be done even easier than I have shown using just four sprockets and some chain on the wheel. (+ the weights)
 
I have been an engineer for over 30 years and though I am sure this can't work, I don't see why!
The torque on the output is totally decoupled from the drive. If this was not so than a similar setup could be use to build a gravity wheel.
It's like the weights can be continuously falling as the wheel turns, driving the output, and the faster it turns is like stronger gravity.
If anyone knows why this does not work, then speak up so I don't need to build it!
Hi Lumen,
how do you transmit the original torque from the blue wheel to the central gear
in your machine? This is not very clear to me..
Also, can you elaborate on a simpler design with four sprockets + weights you mentioned?
Thank you on advance!

Offline lumen

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Re: Even more simplified experiment to show OU using artificial gravity
« Reply #12 on: November 08, 2013, 05:05:56 PM »
Hi Lumen,
how do you transmit the original torque from the blue wheel to the central gear
in your machine? This is not very clear to me..
Also, can you elaborate on a simpler design with four sprockets + weights you mentioned?
Thank you on advance!

The original torque is never transferred to the output gear so at very low RPM or no weights, there is no output torque.
To make an easier version you would make the center and two outer gears as sprockets with the center sprocket a double sprocket, then run a chain from one center sprocket to one outer sprocket and another chain from the center to the other outer sprocket.
It's also easier to understand if you think of it running horizontally to avoid the effects of gravity.
 
@nybtorque:  I believe pumping water is not the same because you must constantly accelerate new mass as new water enters, and that will require additional work.
 

Offline telecom

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Re: Even more simplified experiment to show OU using artificial gravity
« Reply #13 on: November 08, 2013, 08:06:39 PM »

The original torque is never transferred to the output gear so at very low RPM or no weights, there is no output torque.
To make an easier version you would make the center and two outer gears as sprockets with the center sprocket a double sprocket, then run a chain from one center sprocket to one outer sprocket and another chain from the center to the other outer sprocket.
It's also easier to understand if you think of it running horizontally to avoid the effects of gravity.
 
@nybtorque:  I believe pumping water is not the same because you must constantly accelerate new mass as new water enters, and that will require additional work.
I think I understand - an input only accelerate the weights towards the required speed.
This model with the sprockets is quite easy to make and try.
Regards.

Offline lumen

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Re: Even more simplified experiment to show OU using artificial gravity
« Reply #14 on: November 09, 2013, 08:00:09 PM »
I want to say that even though the chain configuration appears to achieve the same goal, there may be important differences between the chain and gear configurations in how the centrifugal forces are utilized.
 

 

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