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Author Topic: Toroidal Coils  (Read 38716 times)

Offline xee2

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Re: Toroidal Coils
« Reply #15 on: October 30, 2013, 03:48:47 AM »

Contracting the coil reduces inductance some, but increases the output voltage.


How are you measuring coil inductance?

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Re: Toroidal Coils
« Reply #15 on: October 30, 2013, 03:48:47 AM »

Offline d3x0r

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Re: Toroidal Coils
« Reply #16 on: October 30, 2013, 03:57:17 AM »

How are you measuring coil inductance?


I have an inexpensive LC meter.  I also put the values into coil inductance caluculators based no dimensions.

Offline d3x0r

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Re: Toroidal Coils
« Reply #17 on: October 30, 2013, 03:59:57 AM »
Contracted coils can be inverted in the center; to form a somewhat sphereical cavity.  I have put a large round ligthbulb in this coil;  The red/green bifilar is the same size, and could accomadate the bulb.


I have learned that with a tight area, the small coil with LED can pick up a field.  At each of the tight intersectoins, but not in the center.  But I can put a conventionally wound toroid in the center, aligned horizontally the same and get an inducatance.


(you can sort of see the LED is lit, a glimmer in the camera flash... the toroid in the center is wound in electical tape and a few turns of red/green 12g wire....


The small pickup coil I was using picks up a field where it is tighly contracted at the top and bottom, but not in the center; which is what then led me to think that the field in the center is really more a conventional ferrite torroid... and I got 5V+/- on that toroid from a +/3 2.5V input on the outside ...




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Re: Toroidal Coils
« Reply #17 on: October 30, 2013, 03:59:57 AM »
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Offline d3x0r

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Re: Toroidal Coils
« Reply #18 on: October 30, 2013, 10:56:45 AM »
4Mhz Signals are magic.... :(


the video... 


attached schematics,


L3/L4 is the 12g coil (large, expanded)
L5/L6 is a toroidal coil in the center of the contracted center of L3/L4; L5 is 12 turns, L6 is 70 turns There is another winding that is unused on it that is also 70 turns.


The grounds are not the same ground; the ground common to the coils is to the plug in the wall;


the ground on the signal generator works as a ground for the LED load as well as the earth ground; but if they are together, the signal doesn't work right.   In the video, they all share a common aluminum heat sink, except the signal generator ground, which is loose and is not connected to anything.

L1/L2 is a small coil, about 24 turns; made of 2 lengths of about 8 feet of wire; after removing it and retuning slightly was able to get the same output to the LEDs with and without the L1/L2 coil; however, the ground and the signal are together...

Edit/ Had the signal output on the wrong side
« Last Edit: October 30, 2013, 06:08:02 PM by d3x0r »

Offline d3x0r

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Re: Toroidal Coils; network test
« Reply #19 on: October 31, 2013, 06:41:32 PM »
I found some rubber plumbing washers that are slightly smaller than 1" ID and slightly more than 1" OD, I wound these with 12 turns of 4 filaments in the same direction; then connected the two pairs together so I have 2 filaments with 24 turns; all approximately 1"; my meter measures 0.25-0.26uH; coil inductance calculator for 24 turns at 1" and 1/8" tall (I would have guessed 1/4") is 25.2uH, (1/4 is 20.6uH).  Each resonates at 2.5Mhz or so, to the same level.  I did have a few times where I had a acoustic-beat waveform, but shifted their positions on ferrite cores (these are tubes through the center of the toroids) and removed the beat; which imroved balanced output.  But with each section, if I make a change to another section, rebalances what is the resonant frequency. 

I put them on some of the ferrite cores I have to provide a little tuning/balancing. 


Empirical information; I started with 1, and got it tuned so it would light its lights with and without a scope probe; when tuning with the scope attached, the frequency changes significantly enough to matter.  As I added more coils, I had my first coil lighting maybe 24LEDs in series; but then when the second one got added, I could light 12 on one and 12 on the other.  Then I added the 12V LED module, and after rebalancing could light 5-6 and 5-6 and the 12V module.  I finally added a 4th coil, attached to the bridge rectifier and a capacitor.  Original frequency started at 3.3Mhz or so, and ended up at 2.22Mhz.


  So from all of these I should be able to calculate the maximum current the signal generator is generorating, but I won't.  The point is, power in = power out minus losses.


The geometry of the coil yields a solenoid of most collapsed dimensions.


The convergence of wires yields a n/s composite field at the 1-2 focus points.  These points should stimulate a solenoid coil.


If there are 2 focus points, the area in the center will stimulate a normal toroid coil (90 degrees from a solenoid)


Even if there were a vortex, without a continuous pulling motion to keep it stressed, it will collapse back to its negative state.


There seems to be no difference between 1 layer and 2 layers going in opposing directions.


Attached schematic is my latest test setup; I won't bore you with videos, it would just confuse the situation with my rats nest wiring.  (I started with both grounds connected, so there is a connection between these two ground points.


----
For a while in the beginning, I had another coil also with approx 24 turns, slightly larger, which had a stray lead attached, and was picking up enough energy to resonate; the capacitance from my body field would adjust the frequency enough to shift from the first coil to this coil powering very reliably; probably very theramin-like.


----


I did have certain wiring directions where the scope was picking up a DC bias of 6V or so... and measuring between the test point and ground with a DC meter confirmed that there was a DC bias; but it was floating and not grounded, however, that did bring me back to thinking about making a area that was a positive potential, but worked relative to itself, which would thereby generate a current from ground through a filtering load and to the circuit....


Oh and one more thing, if you do have someone on a swing that weighs 150 pounds (68Kg whatever), and push them with 1/8 of their weight, you will increase the height of their swing (okay substitute something for someone, so it's not alive or animated).  If near the top of their swing you put a board attached to some other lever system, when the swining object hits the board at the top, it will lose part of its energy; it will remain in resonance itself until the friction on the chain/air slows it to a stop (a much lower ressitance than is experienced by signals in electronics); but anyway, you can only steal a fraction of the power of the resonance, or it will stop entirely; and if your input in insufficient to keep the difference active... then the swing wont go high enough to trigger the load properly)



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Re: Toroidal Coils; network test
« Reply #19 on: October 31, 2013, 06:41:32 PM »
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Offline mx1000

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Re: Toroidal Coils
« Reply #20 on: October 31, 2013, 06:53:55 PM »
Isn't it necessary to have expert level precision in this ?
So that the Toroidal coil is almost exact (99%) ?

Also what you expect to find or is this just peek and poke ?

Sincerely.

Offline d3x0r

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Re: Toroidal Coils
« Reply #21 on: October 31, 2013, 07:06:46 PM »
Isn't it necessary to have expert level precision in this ?
So that the Toroidal coil is almost exact (99%) ?

Also what you expect to find or is this just peek and poke ?

Sincerely.


Somewhat; but I do figure nature isn't a 99% perfect engineer. 


What I was looking for was anomalies; but given that I'm working with stuff engineered on not the magnetic flow, but electron flow, maybe it's impossible; 


99% is pretty easy to do... 1% deviation in the frequency though will result in beats... But yes, if every part was 100% perfect, then I would have less losses.  Each coil addition resulted in less apparent power; and occasionally I would switch back to a sine wave, and if I got near similar power out, it was definatly a good balance, a square wave will trigger near harmonic frequencies better than a sine wave.  At the end, the power output from a sine wave was quite a percentage less than a square wave input.


I got a little sidetracked tracking non anomalous behavior; and other than being able to create a DC bias I've not found anything specifically; other than these coils self induct much better than any other geometry.  (closer to a K of 1)


So other than recording the notes along the way; I'd love input from others on how to discover anomolies :)


-----------
Additional note that I should include again; a lower resistance (impedance?) load will take more of the energy and leave less for the remaining circuits. 


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Re: Toroidal Coils
« Reply #21 on: October 31, 2013, 07:06:46 PM »
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Offline d3x0r

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Re: Toroidal Coils
« Reply #22 on: November 04, 2013, 12:33:09 AM »
Резонанснo


Tinkering with resonance

The tiny coils are resonsant at 3Mhz without a ferous core.

I was considering toploading my coils.... and tried adding some ball bearings; covering the wire end with insulation....

I also started attaching croc-clips so the wire goes into the middle of them instead of just across leaving the pointy wire sticking into air, and improved behavior a slight amount I think.

for each active coil, it is possible to add another coil stacked on the first.  But the distance of 1 coil will not be close enough to get a good voltage without a active coil between.  Active coils have a active current path or an active load.  They can be grounded on one side and use the load on the other back to ground, or separate attached to different polarities of load to a common ground.  If an intervening coil loses its load, the others stacked on top become inactive (FAR out of resonance). maybe that's wrong...

was adding as 'extra-coils' to the topload....
http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/tesla/coloradonotes/coloradonotes04.htm

these have been far easier to experiment with resonance than any other coils; for peer induction, stacking works well in a consolidated space, and can be put on a spindle or rod to keep better alignment. 




Offline d3x0r

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Re: Toroidal Coils
« Reply #23 on: November 15, 2013, 11:42:48 PM »

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F2oSxTWCIUc



So continued experimentation, and seeing a effective core applied to the lynx wind LJL (?) as a closed loop around the outside of a short arc of the coil, I applied that idea, and built up a system that would induct higher voltage than the source at a high enough frequency that a short across an incandescent load worked.


I later applied the mazzilli to a standard 120-25V (1:5) transformer.  With just about any capacitance it triggers oscillation at 50-60hz.  So the design of the magnetic characteristics and its inductances must be such that the field collapses in time; I got power output, but it was VERY flickery.  I was able to put it across a bridge rectifier into a cap and draw more of a DC current and get a stable output. 


Inbetween, I removed the core and was able to get the system to work the same, but at a slightly higher voltage, and higher frequency.


But I find that adding and subtracting loads adds and removes amps appropriately.  Almost to the point that the oscillator itself consumes only 10mA.


I can definatly see improving the number of turns (maybe wind it with 12x the filaments) to get a appreciable voltage out from the same sort of current.  But it is still power, if that voltage is tapped can only draw a small load off of it.  Like say 1000 LEDs in series, they only require 20mA, but use some voltage.


Above that another coil to pickup stray field begins to influence the primary coil's resonance.  Earlier observations at low voltage high frequency, that the target inductance affected the resonant frequency more than the driving inductance; being of similar inductance, (60uH and 72uH) they aren't dissimilar enough to cause a significant disbalance.


I tried adding various idler loops... that is just a loop that is resonant with the rest... but that only seemed to consume power, being in essence just a larger weight to have to swing, rather than being collaborative... that is a larger weight to have to change direction of.   


I dunno I've tried to consider when the induction happens... it's both as the current rises and falls, and the opposing current is opposite in greatest effect; although that's not really true.  If the ground is connected on the same side of the positive signal, no output registers; although there should be a negative potential formed at the other end....


So then I remove the core; then I removed the idea of being two separate coils being grounded, and shorted the ends that were grounded, and still get a good differential.  This winding is a caduceus.... it goes clockwise to the top and clockwise back to the bottom... although compressed; so the current flowing in these windings is in opposite directions, which is least issue for their own fields; since they want to induce a current in near windings in that direction direction the current is already going (except it's kind of a messy winding so I'm not sure that really counts)
... but it's not caduceus because it's not spread/dialated, it's just a winding in one direction to the end, and back in the opposite direction on a second layer; only every winding is passed through every other winding.


But this is really only one dimensional...



manipulating the shape of the pickup coil has little effect... although modifies the frequency slightly.


So I have an oscillation; even if the rodin makes a 'vortex' this vortex collapses at each cycle.  a DC vortex would ... nevermind...


So, the field builds, being built from a current flowing through a wire.  A coil's caracteristic is also to impart a momentum to the flow... but err anyway, so the current flows, a field builds, and is a differential(hmm delta) per point in space, and crosses other conductors.  It's only the (expanding) and (contracting) fields from the source ... more Amps per meter yields more tesla, or flux ... that's more electrons moving for a larger composite field?  That's more electrons aligned in a similar direction to build a composite field?


... but more ..


Also there is resonance, and there is resonance... is there a significance to 8 octaves?  maybe it's 9 octaves... I should compute that when I fix the info on the video...


even if there is a resonance to the fields of the nuclear fields of the atom, that's just going to be the same up/down.  The field can be sustained by continuing to supply amps.  But if you Stop the amps, and allow the field to collapse, the action there imparts motion to electrons in near conductors, still in the opposite direction, but in its own conductor in the same direction; being a momentum of sorts... so is it the stopping of the mass of the electron part what pulls the field back down? 


There's lots of ways to model magnetism with analogies, but none of them really are right.... a whole lot of words to explain nothing :(


(added pictures... frequency progression, as load capacitor charges)
state 1; some 5Mhz frequency.
state 2; combined composite out target low frequency and high 5Mhz frequency
state 3; 240Khz frequency, higher power output.  20x frequency difference (20.8333 if use 240 instead of 250, but the top end was inexact, but was 5.0(8?)Mhz... so maybe 21x?  probably not as low as 18x... which would be a 3, 3, 2, instead of 2*2*5(20)


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Re: Toroidal Coils
« Reply #23 on: November 15, 2013, 11:42:48 PM »
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Dave45

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Re: Toroidal Coils
« Reply #24 on: November 16, 2013, 01:44:43 PM »
Looks like your spending alot of time and working it out, very commendable and thanks for sharing.
My day job is very demanding at the moment so not alot of time to spend doing actual experiments for now, but it gives me time to think.

If we look at a simple transformer step up, step down it doesnt matter, look at how ac pulses each side of the primary, the winding direction from each side.

Ac works with the bemf of a coil, but there is a drawback it changes the polarity of the core.

Dave45

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Re: Toroidal Coils
« Reply #25 on: November 16, 2013, 01:56:26 PM »
Dont know if youve seen this
This is a coil powered with 12v ac then froze, there is a field besides the magnetic


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Re: Toroidal Coils
« Reply #25 on: November 16, 2013, 01:56:26 PM »
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Offline d3x0r

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Re: Toroidal Coils
« Reply #26 on: November 16, 2013, 03:41:19 PM »
Looks like your spending alot of time and working it out, very commendable and thanks for sharing.
My day job is very demanding at the moment so not alot of time to spend doing actual experiments for now, but it gives me time to think.

If we look at a simple transformer step up, step down it doesnt matter, look at how ac pulses each side of the primary, the winding direction from each side.

Ac works with the bemf of a coil, but there is a drawback it changes the polarity of the core.
Truth be known, I have 2 free months after being laid off and paid a severance. 


AC coil as in air conditioning? :)  No that is interesting, and that was where a thought had wandered to be a refrigerator; converting heat to electricity... not just having a heat, but driving and therefore being a refrigerator, which probably goes back to a tesla patent someone had mentioned....

Dave45

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Re: Toroidal Coils
« Reply #27 on: November 16, 2013, 04:26:42 PM »
Im sorry I meant alternating current  :)

Dave45

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Re: Toroidal Coils
« Reply #28 on: November 16, 2013, 04:46:09 PM »
Sorry to hear about your work hope it picks up

Two toroids with a cw coil on one and ccw on the other in close proximity should work together catching each other's bemf field without changing the polarity of their perspective cores.
Thats what Im winding now  :) one thing Iv found it doesnt always work the way we envision it.

Dave45

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Re: Toroidal Coils
« Reply #29 on: November 16, 2013, 05:07:04 PM »
Hope to give you some idea's, I believe this is how the TPU worked, we will see
Im going to step up on one and step down on the other, voltage from one current from the other.

 

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