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Author Topic: Building a self looping "SMOT"  (Read 296260 times)

tinman

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Re: Building a self looping "SMOT"
« Reply #465 on: November 02, 2013, 06:08:32 AM »
why can't the believers ever understand that the only evidence that counts is an actual working device, but they seem to prefer pages and pages of argument with no working evidence.

Before all the believers jump down my throat, I'm not saying it can never work, but why are you saying it can work and yet are incapable of showing it working.

Almost sounds just like the bible and God-dosnt it
There are millions of believers in God,and pages apon pages of his existance-but no actual physical proof of any of it.No scientific proof or anything in physics that can proove his existance. Our God is based purely on belief and faith,and even go's as far as the courts. When you take an oath in court,it is done with your hand placed on the bible,and the last four words are-so help me God.

It is a good thing that PROOF isnt a requirement for beliefs.

In God we trust.

TinselKoala

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Re: Building a self looping "SMOT"
« Reply #466 on: November 02, 2013, 06:24:18 AM »
Here in Texas you'll often see a little sign up behind the counter of country stores and mom-and-pop diners, etc:

In God we Trust... All others pay Cash.


Think about it.

tinman

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Re: Building a self looping "SMOT"
« Reply #467 on: November 02, 2013, 06:56:13 AM »
New discoveries made every day. Although the video is 3 years,it go's to prove that we are still learning about magnetic fields,and all is not yet know.
If all is yet not known,then to make a claim that a device powered only by magnet's can never happen-is faulse.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l5xSjCePgEQ

TechStuf

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Re: Building a self looping "SMOT"
« Reply #468 on: November 02, 2013, 07:10:28 AM »
It is a bit underwhelming by comparison.  The works of man compared to the works of our Creator, I mean.  It's damn depressing to even consider such master work as having been done by blind, dumb accident.  I mean, look at how man scrambles to copy Creation.  He spends trillions of dollars and still doesn't even know where to begin to copy the simplest of the simple among God's works.  Many here have seen the "inner life of a cell" on youtube.  That video alone shows that Darwin was smoking crack to "believe" (faith. it's everywhere) that the single cell was merely a simple micro packet of protoplasmic goo.  So, if even the simplest form of "life", the single cell, is so amazingly complicated....like a veritable city....Containing machines, cogs, levers, sprockets, highly efficient, self assembling highways, timely trash collectors, "sky scrapers", even bipedal organisms walking upright on those highways, hauling giant (by comparison) bags of cargo......

Then where does that leave man as the supposed "pinnacle" of evolution?  As he is no where near as "wise" as his parts, let alone the sum of them.  If man's focused wisdom doesn't even know where to begin to duplicate the simplest component of life in it's smallest, humblest form, then it explains much in the way of his legacy of fallen empires.   As God said, it does not belong to man who is walking, even to direct his step.  Yet Who governs the steps of those trillions of tiny two legged organisms walking upright in each of our cells long before the term "homo erectus" was so assumedly misapplied?  Why do they slave away day after day, century after century.....to keep us walking upright?

When I see such efforts as the "SMOT" and other circular logic devices, so very many of them in institutionalized "education", cwhoreporations, politics, and the military industrial complex, I compare them to the simplest of God's works and sometimes cannot decide whether to cry or chuckle....

Why does God demand faith?  He says that without it, it is impossible for man to please Him well.  Look at how fast man's "mightiest" works have fallen as soon as the people stop believing.  In the powers that be.  In one another....losing "Faith".  Faith IS balance.  Faith is the only currency by which one may afford to buy time itself.  I've witnessed the simplest acts of resolute faith, change lives.  Change nations.  Even the direction of the planet for a time.  Yet we remain so fickle.  So judgmental....for faith without accurate knowledge is most corrosive.  Emotive faith, guided by one's simplistic heart, can be treacherous indeed.  Faith guided by reason and motivated by love is at the very core of the science of sentience. 

I find it sadly, ironically hypocritical that men are so quick to judge God.  Decrying His requirement of "faith".  When those same men demand faith from their marriage partners, their children, friends, strangers, even the family dog. 

How far does an army travel without faith?  Not very.  The chains of command the world over demand deaf dumb and blind obedience daily.

Their blood sacrifices of themselves and their victims no matter the shifting quick sands of relativistic  "moral high ground" of the moment.....produce what?  And yet many of these cannot, or will not, see the value of the blood sacrifice of Christ Himself.

"No greater love can a man have, but to lay down his life for a friend" - Jesus Christ

And He proved it. 

Anyone.  Anyone at all can give up his life blood for another.  It is done all the time.  It is remarkably easy to give up life, or take it, in the heat of the moment.

The real sacrifice is in LIVING one's life for others.  As it requires MUCH more dedication and faith.  And this Christ did as well.  Teaching those who remain teachable, the ONLY way into the Kingdom that Lasts.

Mankind's science, even at it's best, is merely the deconstruction, or rather, the reverse engineering of....

F A I T H

For all is belief.  All that we experience is based upon belief.  Beliefs change, grow, or whither every day, based upon new knowledge.  And still, despite all that he has squandered, sacrificing the many to satisfy the few....Godless mankind doesn't really have a clue as to what he's made of.  Or what, or Who, made Him.

"It is the glory of God to conceal a matter; to search out a matter is the glory of kings." Proverbs 25:2

"For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse." - Romans 1:20

They could see quite well, the hand of God at work in nature, millennia ago.  We who now have the foretold abilities to see much deeper and further into His works should be able to see the forest for the trees at least as well....but what blinds us today?  Why do we repeat the same fatal mistakes as our ancestors?

Who dares call Him a Tyrant Who achieved a Masterfully balanced kingdom, and has held it?  Is it a tyrant who built this once cosmic Island Paradise to be shared and enjoyed by many?  Man even now seeks to copy His creator by creating a "man" in our own image.  One with sentience.  Self awareness.  Is it a coincidence that man started out creating robotic bugs and onward and upward, adjusting his focus toward duplicating himself in lower form.....just as God said He did?

I'll tell you this,  no bigger a fool is found than the one that, should he attain the mastery....creates sentient beings like himself and then allows them to proliferate in his own domain, untested. 

No. Before allowing such, the wise "scientist" would have them tested thoroughly in a lower realm before admitting them into His Kingdom.


Tell me, what are the correct latitudes of balance?  Balance maintained, balance lost and balance restored?


http://www.kingdombiblestudies.org/2hands/2hands1.htm


"It does not belong to man who is walking, even to direct his step".


What happens then, when a man sincerely asks his Maker to direct His steps?


TS




TinselKoala

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Re: Building a self looping "SMOT"
« Reply #469 on: November 02, 2013, 07:31:59 AM »
New discoveries made every day. Although the video is 3 years,it go's to prove that we are still learning about magnetic fields,and all is not yet know.
If all is yet not known,then to make a claim that a device powered only by magnet's can never happen-is faulse.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l5xSjCePgEQ

Have you started your swim yet?

"If all is yet not known,then to make a claim that a device powered only by magnet's can never happen-is faulse."

Your logic is faulty. It is a classic "argument from ignorance."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_ignorance

TinselKoala

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Re: Building a self looping "SMOT"
« Reply #470 on: November 02, 2013, 07:47:15 AM »
@TechStuff:

If God tells me he has a SMOT that self loops and runs continuously (if a bit noisily) ....  I am still going to want to see it before I buy it.

Don't you remember Archer Quinn? He spoke of God, too. He even called his non-working wheel the Sword of God. But in the final end, even when people sent him cigarette money and bought him more and more magnets to put on it... it didn't work. Yet, at the beginning, just like elecar, he claimed it did, and that he would teach others how to build it. Just like elecar.

That's where my "tinselkoala" handle comes from, by the way. When I first encountered this forum, someone from Italy had forged my credentials, impersonated my usual handle, even stole my avatar photograph of me illuminating a CFL bulb wirelessly next to a Tesla Coil, and was posting lies in my name. So I couldn't register under my usual handle... so I scrambled the letters again and chose TinselKoala from the results. (It sounded a bit more dignified than "Ali Snotleak" and I wasn't about to be a "silent" koala) ... and it was indeed a poke at the Australian Archer Quinn. He got it, too. Yes, tinsel is flashy, cheap stuff that people hang on Christmas trees, and koalas are nasty buggers with a vile disposition... and Archer Quinn was a fraud, and finally went away, trailing bits of tinsel and suffering from some nasty koala-claw scratches. Where is his "working" Sword of God now? The same place as elecar's self-looping SMOT: in his dreams.


"What happens when a man sincerely asks God to direct His steps?"

The sound of crickets, chirping.




tinman

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Re: Building a self looping "SMOT"
« Reply #471 on: November 02, 2013, 09:14:02 AM »
Have you started your swim yet?

"If all is yet not known,then to make a claim that a device powered only by magnet's can never happen-is faulse."

Your logic is faulty. It is a classic "argument from ignorance."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_ignorance
My logic is sound thank you TK.It is yours that is faulty.
How can you say you wont get a flat tyre on your trip,befor you have reached your destination?-maybe you have the power to see into the future?

You missed my point about the God post. My point is ,people choose to believe some things without having hard evidence,and yet need hard evidence to believe in other possabilities.
 
Quote: and koalas are nasty buggers with a vile disposition...

And where did that conclusion come from?Youtube?
Koalas are quite the opposite,but like all other animal's,will defend them self if threatened.
So what do you believe?,what you have seen on youtube,or what the guy that has been amongst them tells you?.
This is exactly how a wild koala is,unless provoked.But like all animal's,you will get one or two with a bad attitude-and yes,it's on youtube lol,but a correct interpretation non the less.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Irrr4ISn5ps

So that being known,we can see your knickname now represent's a flashy,cudly little critter.

Anyway,back to topic.
The thing i was refering to in my question of the overlooked action takeing place in the smot(of inclined ramp type),is the transfer of weight on the ramp as the ball rolls along it. As the ramp is fixed,that transfer is simply sent to ground. But who said the ramp had to be fixed?This is where i was looking at a different design-a tilting ramp. So what would a tilting ramp do?,well it would remove most of the angle at the exit point. So we would go from a 90* angle,down to about a 3-4* angle on the exit ramp.This would allow the ball to retain much of it's kinetic energy.
So i will post a pic below,so as you can have a look at it,and see if you see any advantages an disadvantages in it over the fixed ramp.]
Where would be the gain's,and Where would be the losses?

When the ball gets to point C,the ramp will tilt. The ramp will ofcourse return back to it's starting position under it's own steam-another point of work being done.

TechStuf

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Re: Building a self looping "SMOT"
« Reply #472 on: November 02, 2013, 09:33:58 AM »
Quote
"What happens when a man sincerely asks God to direct His steps?"

The sound of crickets, chirping.

Careful, TK, it's too easy to become what one hates. 

At least, by some amazing engineering, (either the blind dumb kind or the keenly sighted kind) you can hear the crickets chirping. 

Perhaps you could learn a thing or two from these men, on the meaning of "Sincerely Asks"....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G3KU-fvd6lc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fED-Ky4VEMc

One of the most powerful sentences I've ever read by any Author, is the simple phrase:

"You have not because you ask not".

And to those who ask, either in mock sincerity or for selfish reasons....consider:

"When you ask, you do not receive, because you ask with wrong motives, that you may spend what you get on your pleasures." - James 4:3

Don't end up like the man who bargained with life for a penny.  Because no matter how one lands, on it's head or it's tail....

The one who flips it is always on edge.


TS


murmel

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Re: Building a self looping "SMOT"
« Reply #473 on: November 02, 2013, 11:08:06 AM »
Anal Ole Skit :-)    nikola tesla

TinselKoala

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Re: Building a self looping "SMOT"
« Reply #474 on: November 02, 2013, 12:41:08 PM »
Anal Ole Skit :-)    nikola tesla

Actually it's an anagram of my mother's maiden name: Kate Allison.

So go figure.

powercat

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Re: Building a self looping "SMOT"
« Reply #475 on: November 02, 2013, 12:51:50 PM »
@tinman @TechStuf
Science and God do not go well together, Darwin proved how mankind evolved, nobody has been able to prove the existence of any God, and there are many who claim their God is the real one.

People who believe in science are never going to win an argument with a true believer in God (whichever one they follow), we may as well argue the existence of Santa Claus or that magicians actually perform real magic.

This is supposed to be a science forum, an alternative one maybe but the foundation of proving your claim is based in science not religion.

May your God be with you and bring you much happiness but please let's stick to scientific verification on this forum, I'm sure there are many religious forums you can join if you want to talk about Gods.

TinselKoala

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Re: Building a self looping "SMOT"
« Reply #476 on: November 02, 2013, 01:32:57 PM »
My logic is sound thank you TK.It is yours that is faulty.
Come on, give me a reference that supports your point. I gave you one that explains just why and how your statement is a classic logical fallacy. Did you read it?

According to your "logic", we don't know everything, therefore you can't say it's not possible for you to swim nude to Tasmania dragging a 200 pound block of concrete. In three hours. Who knows, you might suddenly sprout water wings and discover that Foster's makes your belly swell up to make a float. Impossible I say? Nonsense, we don't know everything. Just find the right can of Foster's, shake it up and swill it down, and when your belly begins to swell, it'll be time to set off to the beach. And the concrete block will of course lose weight when it's submerged, due to buoyancy. All you have to worry about is the clock.... right? So just swim faster.

Quote


How can you say you wont get a flat tyre on your trip,befor you have reached your destination?-maybe you have the power to see into the future?


 No... I'm walking, so there is no possibility of a flat tyre.

Of course I could step on a nail and go blind....

There is no sound physical principle that _prevents_ getting a flat tire if I travel by a vehicle with tires (air filled tires of rubber.....) but there are sound physical principles that make SMOT self-looping impossible.

Now you are resorting to another logical fallacy, the false analogy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fallacies

(I'll bet you didn't know that the road to logical thinking was so full of potholes and stray roofing nails. Better carry a patch kit so you don't get halted by a flat tyre.)

Quote

You missed my point about the God post. My point is ,people choose to believe some things without having hard evidence,and yet need hard evidence to believe in other possabilities.



No, I didn't miss your point at all. Perhaps you missed mine. I see no hard evidence for a personal God of the Christian variety... in fact I see many things in the world that indicate that such a "merciful, loving, all-knowing and all powerful" God does NOT exist, or at least not locally, having abandoned us to our own evil devices. So no, I don't "believe" in that God. I was baptized and raised a Catholic, by the way, and educated by nuns in elementary school (Mass and communion three times a week), by Jesuits and Christian Brothers through high school .... and you know what they say: Jesuits make the best atheists. It's true.

A rabbi, an imam, and a Jesuit priest are crossing a raging river in a boat, which springs a leak. The rabbi starts muttering, rocking back and forth and pulling his beard. The imam says "it is the will of Allah the great, the merciful, that we drown." The priest knocks off the rabbi's hat and starts bailing out the boat with it, and says "thank God for silly hats."

Quote

Quote: and koalas are nasty buggers with a vile disposition...

And where did that conclusion come from?Youtube?


No, from Zoos. We don't have a lot of koalas running wild in Texas. I'm glad to hear that you find them cuddly and aren't worried about those claws.

Maybe I was thinking of Drop Bears, I understand you have to watch out for those "down under". But they don't fit into my anagrams.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-WD_Nh_rboQ

Quote

Koalas are quite the opposite,but like all other animal's,will defend them self if threatened.
So what do you believe?,what you have seen on youtube,or what the guy that has been amongst them tells you?.
This is exactly how a wild koala is,unless provoked.But like all animal's,you will get one or two with a bad attitude-and yes,it's on youtube lol,but a correct interpretation non the less.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Irrr4ISn5ps

So that being known,we can see your knickname now represent's a flashy,cudly little critter.


Often our avatars represent what we would like to be, rather than what we really are, don't you think? In reality I am very drab, not cute at all, and I hate to be touched, I'm not a bit cuddly. And many people have commented that my claws ...er.... my fingernails are dirty when I demonstrate remarkable things on YT. Working hands do get that way, as you know.

Quote

Anyway,back to topic.
The thing i was refering to in my question of the overlooked action takeing place in the smot(of inclined ramp type),is the transfer of weight on the ramp as the ball rolls along it. As the ramp is fixed,that transfer is simply sent to ground. But who said the ramp had to be fixed?This is where i was looking at a different design-a tilting ramp. So what would a tilting ramp do?,well it would remove most of the angle at the exit point. So we would go from a 90* angle,down to about a 3-4* angle on the exit ramp.This would allow the ball to retain much of it's kinetic energy.
So i will post a pic below,so as you can have a look at it,and see if you see any advantages an disadvantages in it over the fixed ramp.]
Where would be the gain's,and Where would be the losses?

When the ball gets to point C,the ramp will tilt. The ramp will ofcourse return back to it's starting position under it's own steam-another point of work being done.

So now a teeter-totter is somehow a gain mechanism? It's not, of course. The ball climbs the ramp, trading KE for GPE on the way up, and this same stored GPE is returned on the way down, even with the SMOT up there. (Good luck balancing). No net work from the teeter-totter. Why don't you place a scale under the fulcrum and see what it reads as the ball travels.

It seems that where people are often tripping up is that they aren't considering a _full cycle_: the system, in order to self-loop, must return to the initial state, and do it without any external input of work from Mister Hand, electromagnets, etc.  You probably think it's the mousetrap's spring that provides energy to kill the mouse... when in reality it is your effort to set the trap, that is stored in the spring, that kills the mouse. This is where Webby's magnet-drop fails, because it has to be somehow reset in order to make the next full cycle: it needs to be raised up against gravity, and this takes energy from somewhere, and stores it in the GPE of the raised up magnet end. If this energy is to come from the KE of the rolling ball -- then that KE is reduced by the same amount (plus losses). But where else could it come from? Nobody yet has shown, or described, or explained any gain mechanism in a SMOT, there are only losses. You can reduce the losses and make them arbitrarily small if you like ... but without some _gain_ even a zero-loss SMOT will stop as soon as you put any drag at all on it.

tinman

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Re: Building a self looping "SMOT"
« Reply #477 on: November 02, 2013, 02:25:09 PM »
@TK
Yes i realize there is no gain by tilting the ramp,other than my thought of reducing the exit angle.Do you not agree that if the 90* exit ramp angle is reduced,then the ball will retain more of it's kinetic energy. So the whole system may be a loss,but im looking at ways to make it as efficient as i can. Then if after all that the ball still return's back to the magnetic ramp after it's exit,we pack up our bat and ball,and go home.
If by that extreemly slight chance that the ball continues to roll out of the magnetic field of the ramp,then we look at makeing the loop.

minnie

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Re: Building a self looping "SMOT"
« Reply #478 on: November 02, 2013, 02:32:42 PM »
Hi,
    thank God I'm an atheist!
                                 John.

TinselKoala

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Re: Building a self looping "SMOT"
« Reply #479 on: November 02, 2013, 04:08:22 PM »
Nice to see you are getting closer to my question about my possible solution at reducing the escape costs.

If the magnet falls that stored GPE is converted into KE and that KE can be stored and returned to lift the magnet,,  This is why I would like to know if there *is* a cost to the magnet falling when the steel ball is next to the pivot for that magnet.

Certainly. If the steel ball is in a region where the flux through it changes over time, as when the magnet drops, there will be eddy currents induced in the ball. These will be of a polarity that acts against the polarity of the flux, retarding the "drop" of the magnet, and will dissipate power as heat in the ball. (a tiny bit of heat of course but still a loss.) If your ramp is conductive material, like the aluminum channels many people use, then the moving magnet will also induce wasteful eddys in the channel. Remember the demonstrations of eddycurrent braking? Moving a magnet near a conductive material always induces a current in the conductive material, and if it has any ohmic resistance the power is dissipated as heat and adds a braking effect to the moving magnet. Clever people have figured out how to use this fact usefully, in devices called "transformers".