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Author Topic: Building a self looping "SMOT"  (Read 296259 times)

happyfunball

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Re: Building a self looping "SMOT"
« Reply #150 on: October 15, 2013, 05:33:30 PM »
Hi Happyfunball, I hope you do not mind me mentioning the video link that I sent you. As you saw in that video the ball did drop away from the middle of the magnet array and out of the gap that I widened and onto a track where it rolled away. In order to make that video I butchered the test track as you could see. I showed it to you purely to show that TK was absolutely wrong when he said it could not happen.
I had to use my finger to push the ball into the magnet array as I had butchered the track to show you that test. If I had posted that video I would have got nothing but abuse and an accusation that my "finger" did the work.

Please feel free to correct anything I have stated above.

I can not pretend to understand on a nano level why it works, sometimes things occur that turns traditional thinking on its head. Apparently there are two mammals that lay eggs.

I am working on using the effect on someone elses design, I am openly showing the results. I have 50mm of ground to make up and a height of 1.7mm, I am reasonably confident I will show that design also works with the effect and that it will loop, regardless, the skeptics will still find a reason as to why it is not as shown.

Sorry, I don't really follow.

There is no indication of the ball being pushed in this first video you posted, that accusation would be silly.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=--3rugO_RMg&feature=youtu.be

What would be the problem with reassembling it and simply showing the ball complete the loop and drop to the starting point

thanks

elecar

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Re: Building a self looping "SMOT"
« Reply #151 on: October 15, 2013, 06:06:44 PM »
Sorry, I don't really follow.

There is no indication of the ball being pushed in this first video you posted, that accusation would be silly.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=--3rugO_RMg&feature=youtu.be

What would be the problem with reassembling it and simply showing the ball complete the loop and drop to the starting point

thanks

Hi happyfunball, I know that video is gravity fed, the video I sent you though required me to push the ball into the array as I had butchered the test track to show the ball dropping out through the gap I had widened. I had no other track to use so had to use the track I had, and although it fell away from the magnet array and ran away down the track from the widened hole it would not have gone back to the beginning as it would have been operating like a conventional SMOT. Where the ball would drop to a point equal to or lower than the start point.
It was only to show that the ball could escape the magnetic field when in the middle of the array. I never have claimed that the test rig would loop, it was never designed to loop, it was purely to test the concept.

happyfunball

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Re: Building a self looping "SMOT"
« Reply #152 on: October 15, 2013, 06:24:23 PM »
Hi happyfunball, I know that video is gravity fed, the video I sent you though required me to push the ball into the array as I had butchered the test track to show the ball dropping out through the gap I had widened. I had no other track to use so had to use the track I had, and although it fell away from the magnet array and ran away down the track from the widened hole it would not have gone back to the beginning as it would have been operating like a conventional SMOT. Where the ball would drop to a point equal to or lower than the start point.
It was only to show that the ball could escape the magnetic field when in the middle of the array. I never have claimed that the test rig would loop, it was never designed to loop, it was purely to test the concept.

Ok, that's a fair reply. I know you haven't claimed it loops continuously.

But it would have been neat to see it loop once. I frankly think that's a major feat in itself.

jdsanders

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Re: Building a self looping "SMOT"
« Reply #153 on: October 15, 2013, 11:32:23 PM »
I will list the parts I used myself, but other parts may be used.

19 mm steel ball
40 x 1” x 1.5” x  .25” C8  magnets ( I have also used neo blocks but they were harder to set correctly)
3 meters of  2.5 mm  rod/wire for track, my prototype used aluminum but copper should be fine, you may even get away with the wire from a few wire coat hangers.

Hello elecar!

Would you mind telling where you sourced your C8 magnets? I'm having trouble finding that size.

Regards,
-Joel D. Sanders

LibreEnergia

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Re: Building a self looping "SMOT"
« Reply #154 on: October 16, 2013, 12:24:01 AM »
Quote Libre 
Quote TK


Please watch the following video, and the tests as described below. Then either retract your statement or supply the evidence that you are correct.




When you watch the video you will see clips of 3 tests. please excuse the jerry rigged set up, that is all the C8 magnets I have left after building my prototype. I would have preferred to show test 3 on a longer length of ramp, but I do not have enough spare magnets and I do not have a longer piece of aluminum track as I butchered it all for the track. Test 3 does however show how the ball can reverse under gravity in the magnetic field.

My text from page 2 of this thread.

Test 1:  The ball being released from different positions on the track  2mm - 6mm higher than the lowest point. Note how the ball always makes it to the first 2 marks when rolling under gravity regardless of where it is released from even when traveling around "friction" bend.

Test 2: Magnets in place, this test is the same as test one but with the magnets positioned to draw the ball up the ramp. Note how it makes it all the way to the "hole" no matter where the ball is released from on the same section of track as shown in test 1 Also note the ball ends higher than it starts every time.

Test 3: Magnets in place but positioned to prevent the ball making it to the hole, Note the ball loses its forward momentum and reverses under gravity whilst in the magnetic field. It does this from any position as in test 1 and test 2.


My video from page 2 of this thread.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=--3rugO_RMg&feature=youtu.be


Here are my observations, and why this will never self loop continuously.

With no magnet present the ball completes only part of a loop due to friction. Starting the ball higher may allow the ball to loop back via a lower path if the track was properly designed. With a small amount of friction present it may even loop for a while. This is the source of my comment 'It would work better without the magnet'.

You then introduce the magnet into the setup, and it 'apparently' performs better in that the ball is propelled further up than in the no magnet case.

However you neglect to account for the fact that you are giving the ball potential energy by moving it within the magnetic field by hand.

The extra potential energy you give it manifests itself as the kinetic energy of the ball being propelled up the ramp. (This is exactly what would happen if you did NOT have a loop and placed a ball on a straight track adjacent to one end of a magnet.)

You will note that when the magnet is in place you must take the ball from its ending position and move it AWAY from the magnet for the ball to start moving around the loop. Think about that FACT carefully as that is where the energy to propel the ball is coming from.

All you have done is use a bit of misdirection and/or fool yourself as to the possibility that this particular geometry can magically cause magnetism to become a non conservative field (i.e.  the net energy moving and object in the field around any closed path is somehow not zero.)

I don't know whether I have explained that very well but I'm sure pondering why you have to move the ball away from the magnet will give you the answer.


« Last Edit: October 16, 2013, 05:28:53 AM by LibreEnergia »

lumen

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Re: Building a self looping "SMOT"
« Reply #155 on: October 16, 2013, 02:00:36 AM »

Here are my observations, and why this will never self loop continuously.

With no magnet present the ball completes only part of a loop due to friction. Starting the ball higher may allow the ball to loop back via a lower path if the track was properly designed. With a small amount of friction present it may even loop for a while. This is the source of my comment 'It would work better without the magnet'.

You then introduce the magnet into the setup, and it 'apparently' performs better in that the ball is propelled further up than in the no magnet case.

However you neglect to account for the fact that you are giving the ball potential energy by moving it within the magnetic field by hand.

The extra potential energy you give it manifests itself as the kinetic energy of the ball being propelled up the ramp. (This is exactly what would happen if you did NOT have a loop and placed a ball on a straight track adjacent to one end of a magnet.)

You will note that when the magnet is in place you must take the ball from its ending position and move it AWAY from the magnet for the ball to start moving around the loop. Think about that FACT carefully as that is where the energy to propel the ball is coming from.

All you have done is use a bit of misdirection and/or fool yourself as to the possibility that this particular geometry can magically cause magnetism to become a non conservative field (i.e.  the net energy moving and object in the field around any closed path is somehow not zero.)

I don't know whether I have explained that very well but I'm sure pondering why you have to move the ball away from the magnet will give you the answer.




Placing the ball in the magnetic field gives the system potential energy, supplied by your hand.
You release

Seems to me that placing a steel ball into a magnetic field only lowers the potential energy. Does not the ball have the most potential energy further from the magnet and lose it's potential energy as it gets closer?
 
I mean it's a one way trip, once it reaches the magnet there is no longer any potential energy, so placing the ball anywhere in the magnetic field is a point of already lower potential energy.
 
Is it possible to place a steel ball close to a magnet and then have it escape because of the energy you gave it placing it there?
 

TinselKoala

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Re: Building a self looping "SMOT"
« Reply #156 on: October 16, 2013, 02:13:45 AM »
When you "place" your steel ball by hand close to the magnet... are you preventing it from being attracted to the magnet, even faster than it would be without your hand "placing" it there? Are you restraining it in any way?

If so... you are adding energy to the system, doing work on it. Let's say you first feel the attraction of the ball to the magnet at 10 cm away, but you bring the ball in to 5 cm, hold it there, and then release it. Does the ball strike the magnet with more kinetic energy, or less kinetic energy, than it would if you had just let it "fall" in from the 10 cm distance?
The difference represents work you are _supplying_ to the system, since magnetic PE, just like gravitational PE... is negative.

norman6538

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Re: Building a self looping "SMOT"
« Reply #157 on: October 16, 2013, 02:45:00 AM »
Stop all the keyboard drivel and get out to the bench and experiment and you will be amazed at what you find.

 I just dropped my tilt from 3 inches to 2 inches and the ball went much further. Who would have ever guessed that. Then when adding magnets it went all but the last inch. I'm gettin there......Slow but sure.

Norman



Pirate88179

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Re: Building a self looping "SMOT"
« Reply #158 on: October 16, 2013, 04:23:55 AM »
Stop all the keyboard drivel and get out to the bench and experiment and you will be amazed at what you find.

 I just dropped my tilt from 3 inches to 2 inches and the ball went much further. Who would have ever guessed that. Then when adding magnets it went all but the last inch. I'm gettin there......Slow but sure.

Norman

No offense intended but, thousands of folks (including me) have built devices that go "all but the last inch."  It is this last inch that is the problem.  That and adding additional energy into the system using "Mr. Finger".

Don't get me wrong here.  I hope this fellow has actually done it, and his reasons for not disclosing were made clear in his first post.  But, you have to admit that it does really fit the pattern we all have seen here before.  "Well, I destroyed the one that worked and the second one almost works".  That is so cliche on here now.

As I said in my first post here, I am willing to give him the benefit of the doubt but, please don't blame folks if they point out all of the red flags we have all come to know so well...not to mention known physics.

Bill

***EDIT***

Forget the toy company contract, if his original design self-loops, we are talking about a Nobel Prize.

JouleSeeker

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Re: Building a self looping "SMOT"
« Reply #159 on: October 16, 2013, 04:24:53 AM »
Stop all the keyboard drivel and get out to the bench and experiment and you will be amazed at what you find.

 I just dropped my tilt from 3 inches to 2 inches and the ball went much further. Who would have ever guessed that. Then when adding magnets it went all but the last inch. I'm gettin there......Slow but sure.

Norman

Thanks, Norman.  Can you remind me -- what magnets are you using?  (big c8?)

JouleSeeker

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Re: Building a self looping "SMOT"
« Reply #160 on: October 16, 2013, 04:30:14 AM »
  As a test, self-looping for 30 minutes (as previously discussed IIRC) is certainly a persuasive test.

  Another goal, may I suggest, would be to see the ball ACCELERATE from the first loop-trip to the second and to the third trip around the track.  It seems demonstration of acceleration over a closed loop would be scientifically compelling, and to me very strong evidence for a previously untapped source of energy.

LibreEnergia

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Re: Building a self looping "SMOT"
« Reply #161 on: October 16, 2013, 05:45:15 AM »
Stop all the keyboard drivel and get out to the bench and experiment and you will be amazed at what you find.

 I just dropped my tilt from 3 inches to 2 inches and the ball went much further. Who would have ever guessed that. Then when adding magnets it went all but the last inch. I'm gettin there......Slow but sure.

Norman

Ah yes, that perennial 'last inch'.  Some of us don't need experimentation to predict why you'll be only be able to reduce but never eliminate it for such a device.

As I've said before, these devices work better without magnets.

norman6538

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Re: Building a self looping "SMOT"
« Reply #162 on: October 16, 2013, 01:31:57 PM »
LibreEnergia said
"As I've said before, these devices work better without magnets."

Is this just a hollow statement or do you have facts and numbers to back
it up?

I assume you have not see my pendulum that drops from 2 and goes till midnight.
How do you explain that? My pendulum is very sick because normal pendulums just so not act that way. I think I'll take it to the vet and get some medicine for it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4FzK2XKQ-74

My Teardrop ball works better with magnets - show us yours.

Is this just a hollow statement or do you have facts and numbers to back
it up?

My magnets that perform best are the domino sized ceramics from Radio Shack.

I need to work more on the magnet array to get the full performance required.

Norman

JouleSeeker

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Re: Building a self looping "SMOT"
« Reply #163 on: October 16, 2013, 02:02:21 PM »

My magnets that perform best are the domino sized ceramics from Radio Shack.

I need to work more on the magnet array to get the full performance required.

Norman

Again the use of non-conducting permanent magnets! 
(From an earlier post, quoting the concluding sentence of an enlightening paper by Dr. Kirk McDonald of Princeton University: )

ramset

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Re: Building a self looping "SMOT"
« Reply #164 on: October 16, 2013, 03:55:13 PM »
Norman
Are these the same radio shack magnets?[seem small not quite Domino??]
 
http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2103429
 
can you give a part number?
 
thx
Chet
PS
Jouleseeker
Quite Sure Dr. Mcdonald would love to play with this "TOY" if it works as advertized!!