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Author Topic: Building a self looping "SMOT"  (Read 221480 times)

Offline elecar

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Re: Building a self looping "SMOT"
« Reply #15 on: October 09, 2013, 11:02:45 AM »
Hi Conrad, the drawing indicates where I usually start the ball. The point you indicated is the top of the ramp.
The ball can be released from anywhere on the curved section leading away from the ramp and still completes a circuit. I can release the ball from a point only 2mm higher than the bottom of the ramp and the ball is still drawn up the ramp by the magnets.

Where the track junction leaves the straight section the ball is approximately 6 mm higher than the bottom of the magnetic ramp. And the ball picks up sufficient momentum on the way down the incline to carry it the start of the magnetic ramp.
One set of tests I did was to release the ball on the track at different heights without the magnets in place, I marked the test track where the ball came to rest (lowest point) I then released the ball from the different heights and it always traveled further under gravity than the entrance to the magnetic ramp. 
In summary you do not need to release the ball from the highest point even when released from the start of the curve (approx 2mm) higher than the lowest point on the track it is drawn up the ramp.

 To answer your questions, there are no electronics and no mechanical devices other than those indicated.


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Re: Building a self looping "SMOT"
« Reply #15 on: October 09, 2013, 11:02:45 AM »

Offline elecar

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Re: Building a self looping "SMOT"
« Reply #16 on: October 09, 2013, 03:03:51 PM »
Hi Conrad, please see the attached photos.

These photographs are of the test track, they are NOT of a self looping SMOT, the test track was put together to see if the idea was viable before a prototype build.
Some things to note, the track was put together from a waste aluminum shelf runner. It is very rough and if you look at how I formed the curve you will see there is a great deal of friction. That said it still worked as I had wished and is the reason I went ahead with the prototype.

I hope the pictures show the curve and the incline clear enough.

I have put a video together of the tests I carried out on the test track and I will post it later with details of the tests that were being done.


Offline elecar

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Re: Building a self looping "SMOT"
« Reply #17 on: October 09, 2013, 03:42:33 PM »
Please see the attached pictures which show the height from the MDF board to the bottom of the track at 4 points 0 mm, 2 mm, 6 mm and 12 mm. The second picture shows some red marks on the track. Those marks represent where the ball will roll to WITHOUT magnets in place. The 3rd mark should be ignored when watching the video as the 3rd mark was where the ball rolled to when the ramp was at a steeper angle.



When you watch the video you will see clips of 3 tests. please excuse the jerry rigged set up, that is all the C8 magnets I have left after building my prototype. I would have preferred to show test 3 on a longer length of ramp, but I do not have enough spare magnets and I do not have a longer piece of aluminum track as I butchered it all for the track. Test 3 does however show how the ball can reverse under gravity in the magnetic field.

Test 1:  The ball being released from different positions on the track  2mm - 6mm higher than the lowest point. Note how the ball always makes it to the first 2 marks when rolling under gravity regardless of where it is released from even when traveling around "friction" bend.

Test 2: Magnets in place, this test is the same as test one but with the magnets positioned to draw the ball up the ramp. Note how it makes it all the way to the "hole" no matter where the ball is released from on the same section of track as shown in test 1 Also note the ball ends higher than it starts every time.

Test 3: Magnets in place but positioned to prevent the ball making it to the hole, Note the ball loses its forward momentum and reverses under gravity whilst in the magnetic field. It does this from any position as in test 1 and test 2.




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Re: Building a self looping "SMOT"
« Reply #17 on: October 09, 2013, 03:42:33 PM »
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Offline elecar

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Re: Building a self looping "SMOT"
« Reply #18 on: October 09, 2013, 03:45:56 PM »
This video will self destruct in 24 hours  :o



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=--3rugO_RMg&feature=youtu.be

Offline elecar

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Re: Building a self looping "SMOT"
« Reply #19 on: October 09, 2013, 04:16:43 PM »
Where the energy comes from:

In the attached drawing I have indicated how the steel ball consumes energy.

By a "run" I mean: ball runs down the linear start incline, goes around the loop and remounts the linear start incline.

For the 1. run the ball is released at the top (the start of the linear incline, see arrow "1. run"). When the ball comes back from the loop it mounts a little less (as indicated by the arrow "2. run").

After the second run it mounts even less (as indicated by the arrow "3. run").

In practice the ball might only loose 0.5 mm or 0.1 mm at every run, but eventually it will have lost all the energy induced by having it start at the highest point of the linear incline.

The run time will be fairly long in case the steel ball runs very slowly.


And now a question: is there some electronics or mechanical contraption (e.g. descending weight) at the highest point of the linear incline which pulls the steel ball up a little bit when it comes back from a run?

Praise: It is a good idea to break the loop in a SMOT.

Greetings, Conrad


Hi Conrad, I hope the video shows that  the loss you claim does not occur, regardless of the release position of the ball it always travels the same distance in the magnetic field.

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Re: Building a self looping "SMOT"
« Reply #19 on: October 09, 2013, 04:16:43 PM »
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Offline lumen

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Re: Building a self looping "SMOT"
« Reply #20 on: October 09, 2013, 06:00:36 PM »
Now that you have shown how it's done, you might as well just show the real prototype running endlessly, yes?

Offline elecar

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Re: Building a self looping "SMOT"
« Reply #21 on: October 09, 2013, 08:10:48 PM »
Now that you have shown how it's done, you might as well just show the real prototype running endlessly, yes?

Sigh

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Re: Building a self looping "SMOT"
« Reply #21 on: October 09, 2013, 08:10:48 PM »
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Offline JouleSeeker

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Re: Building a self looping "SMOT"
« Reply #22 on: October 09, 2013, 09:56:48 PM »
For the purpose of this thread the term SMOT will be used. To date no one has looped a SMOT, largely because when a ball leaves the SMOT ramp it ends up at a height equal to or lower than the point at which it started. To over come that problem it is necessary to have the ball leave the SMOT ramp at a height that enables feeding the ball back to the start point.
Most previous designs utilize the ramp design in US4215330 A  which consists of an incline with two rows of magnets, one fixed either side of the incline with a track positioned in between the two. The ball is drawn up the ramp by the magnets and leaves the top of the ramp and under gravity falls off the end. Always ending up at a point lower than or equal to the start point which then leaves the problem of getting the ball back to the start point.

My design (Patent Pending) approaches the problem in a different and unique way, which I hope some of you replicate independently. 
I will start by saying I will not be showing my finished design for a while and if that is what you want to see please come back to this thread in the future when I will post a video of my unit.

What I will do however is tell you how to go about building a self looping “SMOT” of your own using the principles employed in my design. 
I will include rough drawings (sorry its not one of my strong points) I shall also include experiments for you try out which I used myself to create my own design. The experiments are worth doing, especially for the naysayers as they will show the working principle and give you chance to make adjustments before you go into a full fledged build.

[snip]

Next the working principle.

Thanks so much for sharing what you have, Elecar.  I enjoyed the intriguing video.
You said clearly, "I will start by saying I will not be showing my finished design for a while", and that's fine.

 You also said,
"What I will do however is tell you how to go about building a self looping “SMOT” of your own using the principles employed in my design. "

Hurray!  thanks for this.  I'd like to give it a try, and contribute if I may.

Thank you again.
Steve

Offline JouleSeeker

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Re: Building a self looping "SMOT"
« Reply #23 on: October 09, 2013, 11:14:55 PM »
Elecar, making your tear-drop-shaped track took some time, no doubt. 
I wonder if a plastic track, U-shaped, would work and be easier to bend into the proper curve?  Screwed down to a board still, as you have done.  Or perhaps model-train (or car) tracks?  Hmmmm... something flexible and hopefully cheap...
  How about a clear plastic TUBE? tubing would be flexible... might work if the friction were low enough.  A track is probably better.  3D printer, with track built in?  that would be cool. Thinking out loud here.

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Re: Building a self looping "SMOT"
« Reply #23 on: October 09, 2013, 11:14:55 PM »
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Offline elecar

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Re: Building a self looping "SMOT"
« Reply #24 on: October 09, 2013, 11:38:19 PM »
Hi Jouleseeker. I thought about acrylic tube when I set out to design a track, but they are not easy to bend (actually they bend easily but do not keep their shape).
I am not sure about a model train unless you were to use the D type which I think is the smallest gauge. A 3D printer would be awesome if not a little expensive.
I also toyed with the idea of aluminum channel wide enough to sit the ball in as I had an idea for the junction, in the end I settled with aluminum rod.

If you were referring to the bend in the test track, no it took a few minutes with a hacksaw.

Offline lumen

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Re: Building a self looping "SMOT"
« Reply #25 on: October 10, 2013, 03:00:40 AM »
I think one could just machine it from a solid plate of aluminum about 1.25" thick.
Could first layout in cad to get a good passive crossover where the rail furthest from the magnets would taper closer to the other rail until the ball just falls over it onto the exit track. This could be done smoothly as to cause no change in height of the ball. (almost)
 

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Re: Building a self looping "SMOT"
« Reply #25 on: October 10, 2013, 03:00:40 AM »
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Offline DreamThinkBuild

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Re: Building a self looping "SMOT"
« Reply #26 on: October 10, 2013, 03:12:20 AM »
Hi Elecar,

Thank you for sharing your design and video.

I'm interested in your original track. What is the length of the track in the video?

I also attached a picture of a possible circular design(minus support structures to reduce clutter). It's an untested idea so it may or may not work.

It is at an exaggerated scale to show the curve better, the angle and curve would be a lot less perceptible. The idea is the same as yours but curved and where the ball would usually start to fall back down the ramp there is a very slight gradient tilting it towards the down side.

The way to build would be to make two rings of wire for the track, inner and outer. Then slightly bend the inner ring at the top towards the down side where the ball starts to fall  back. 3D printing is also an option once measurements are nailed down.

Offline norman6538

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Re: Building a self looping "SMOT"
« Reply #27 on: October 10, 2013, 03:14:06 AM »
Elecar this is very exciting. By using only one side of a smot you left the other side
open for the escape. I have always believed that permanent magnets can do work because
of 1. Finsrud's device and 2. my pendulum that swings higher than its dropped point and
3. now your modified smot......

Thank you very much....
I will stick one together tomorrow I hope.
my pendulum drops from 2 oclock and travels to noon here.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4FzK2XKQ-74

Norman

Offline lumen

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Re: Building a self looping "SMOT"
« Reply #28 on: October 10, 2013, 04:32:37 AM »
I think there's more to it than that, just like a steel ball will always pull to the edge of a magnet because there is less attraction in the center.
So the main acceleration is pulling into the magnet and there is less attraction in the center of the ramp, but can be controlled by the magnets angle to the track.
 
The idea is to gain moving into the ramp and exit just after the peak of the gain and where there is less attraction.
May be?
 

Offline Pirate88179

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Re: Building a self looping "SMOT"
« Reply #29 on: October 10, 2013, 06:52:18 AM »
elecar:

Wow!  I have read this topic and seen your video.  I think what you have devised is brilliant Sir.  I have no problem taking you at your word, even though we here on OU.com have been burned before as we all know.

I believe everyone should read your first post and respect your position.  You spelled out what you would, and would not reveal.  I accept this.

Once your idea is fully understood, selecting the materials for easier building for the experimenters is where the folks here can contribute.  We all have to work with the tools we have and the materials we can easily get.  What a great job you have done using that metal bracket.  I wish you much success and I appreciate your willing to share with us on here as much as you are able. 

If I were in your position, it would be killing me to not be able to do so.  Very well done Sir.

Bill

 

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