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Solid States Devices => solid state devices => Topic started by: synchro1 on September 30, 2013, 07:47:45 PM

Title: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: synchro1 on September 30, 2013, 07:47:45 PM

Quote from Energetic Forum:



"Here is whats happening with reed switch

1. Strength of magnet is very low, just to activate the reed switch. Once its activated, the circuit is in ON state hence transistor charges up the coil.

2. When coil is charged up, it creates a magnetic field, which is opposite to the magnet pole that is facing towards reed switch, And this electromagnetic field is way more strong than magnet. Hence its turns off the reed switch by pulling it opposite side.

3. When reed switch is OFF, the circuit is OFF, hence coil collapse and radiant is captured in battery, but at the same time the magnetic field of magnet is now stronger because there is no electromagnetic field here any more, SO the reed switch is ON again and Coil turns it off once charged

**Note, You must place the magnet facing opposite pole towards the coil, you have to find out the exact pole that activate oscillation, e.g if coil is charging up as South pole, the magnet should be facing North towards reed switch

Above three steps are repeating again and again with a very high frequency, probably automatically adjusted. It gives very sharp pulses and very much strong voltage output. I can get purple light on reed switch all the time but this may blow out the transistor within seconds" 

Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: synchro1 on September 30, 2013, 07:55:42 PM
The above quote is from Energetic forum. What I realized from his explanation is that the mach speeds  I witnessed resulted from the kind of oscillation between the electro magnetic coil field and the magnet. My switch is simply hot wired to the battery, not to a transistor base. I can assure everyone the addition of the Bedini circuit is retroverted.


Look at where his Reed switch is in comparison to mine above. Below is the spinner the coil and reed switch cap over. I fished for the reed switch sweet spot with a lasertach and amp meter. I did not arrive at it empiracly. My theory's belated.


The speed up is accompanied by a drop in input perhaps due to a shortened pulse width? This setup's rpm's exceed the rated switching speed for the reed switch. I believe there's perhaps a doubling of speed effect when the magnet skips over the switch. The other point the autor makes is that the coil sends BEMF back to the power source. The power generated by the spinner in the power coil must cancel or equal the input with the advantage of Lenz delay. Super fast, cold with an oscillating  plasma arc across the reed switch points.


The author sums it up here:



"3. When reed switch is OFF, the circuit is OFF, hence coil collapse and radiant is captured in battery, but at the same time the magnetic field of magnet is now stronger because there is no electromagnetic field here any more, SO the reed switch is ON again and Coil turns it off once charged".


So the power coil begins to "CLIP" the pulse with the reed switch in this position by turning the reed switch off ahead of time before the magnet does, like an Ozzie motor! The Ozzie motor is virtually self running. We can see the same pulse clipping in effect in this simple version. So it automaticly keeps shortening it's own pulse duration. The Ozzie motor runs with two reed switchs at a very slow rpm. One of Ozzie's reed switches shuts the current off.  This, based on the same principle goes ballistic for close to nothing with merely one reed switch that's grown dual purposed.


This PVC model is designed to house Lenz free bifilar pancake output coils with ferrite toroid cores like Skycollection designed positioned in the base of the PVC coupling or pancke output coils with magnet cores that induce Lenz acceleration. The spinner  rpm is way above the 28k Lenz delay threshold speed. This core positioned reed oscillator would make a very powerful safe and dependable motor alternator coupled with phase shifted output coils..
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: synchro1 on October 01, 2013, 12:30:25 AM
Consider the sequence of events with an air core coil centered reed switch: The magnet face closes the reed switch points, the coil charges and almost instantly kills itself off when the reed switch points are drawn apart by the coil's magnetisem. This scenario differs widely from the one where the magnet face keeps the reed switch points closed through the full transit of the rotor, extending the pulse duration dramatiacly. The power consumption ratio must vary by an enormous amount!


The sensitivity of the reed switch might keep the power coil from reaching full charge allowing for a higher discharge and recharge rate like a capacitor discharge rate bell curve would describe. Peak efficiency and maximum rpm result from this setting. The core centered polarity placed reed switch acts as a pulse trimmer and a power switch! Super speed brings additional relativistic effects to the setup that defy adequate explanation.
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: TinselKoala on October 01, 2013, 01:51:45 AM
You are deluding yourself if you really believe that there are any relativistic effects happening.
What you have invented there is a reed-switch killer. A proper Hall-effect sensor circuit switching the right mosfet or IGBT will outperform the reed switch in terms of switching speed, and proper design and layout will preserve the inductive collapse spikes so that you can do with them what you will.

Put a small ceramic capacitor right across the contacts of the reed switch and it will last a lot longer. Of course you won't see it flashing plasma in there...


Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: synchro1 on October 01, 2013, 02:15:26 AM

@Tinselkoala,


                   Thanks for the advice. You helped point the importance of the reed switch oscillation out in one of your prior posts, but I just realized over the past week that the kill side was important.




Here's my Depalma weight gain video: The scale is reverse weighted, so it actually drops to 249 when it's stoped.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t_atlyEC7o4[/size]
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: MileHigh on October 01, 2013, 02:31:05 AM
TK:

Something I have never seen and it puzzles me why no one has done it.  I figure the desire is to have a coil firing pulse with as sharp an edge as possible (in both directions) with full control over the pulse width and the starting angle relative to top-dead-center is what you want.  And you want to do it cheaply and easily and in the analog domain.

There must me a little $2 op-amp chip out there.   Power it from the source 12-volt battery.  I would have an independent pick up coil on a stand that you could move around.  So you fire the pulse from an alternate magnet on the rotor.  Your pick-up coil output connects to the + input of the op-amp and you have a 100K potentiometer to dial the voltage on the - input of the op-amp.  (Tie one side of the pick-up coil to a simple resistor voltage divider and a filtering cap at about +6 volts.)  The output from the op-amp is going to either be very close to ground or very close to +12 volts.  So you use that to fire your IGBT or MOSFET or transistor.  I would also run the op-amp output to a simple transistor voltage-follower to power a bright LED that strobes the rotor.  So you paint some white lines in the right places on the rotor and that's your rotary strobe to observe the pulse timing.  So you don't even need a scope.

So ultra clean fast switching and fully variable pulse timing to hunt for the sweet spot and throw in a strobe for free.  All this for less than $8.  Plus you can't forget the "exotic" pulse width control with a potentiometer.  A boss machine.

MileHigh

PS:  Perhaps instead of running off the source battery voltage you run the whole thing off a regulator chip at say 9 volts.  Just to stay away from the battery when the voltage output starts to choke.
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: totoalas on October 01, 2013, 02:31:35 AM
lo generator  in YT
he's using the ferrite rod as negative path instead of end of coil from positive source   and the induction of the coil closes the circuit
in his channel   where a reed switch simulation is shown also
totoalas :)
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: forest on October 01, 2013, 10:03:51 AM
Definately the sharp spike is one of the keys, and Tesla method of placing capacitor around the interrupter is the solution....but I'm having problems with capacitors, commonly used are not good enough because voltage rise too high and could damage them if switching time is not fast enough to lower tension (voltage) across them. But  I can say once in 2004 I accidentally combined the proper ingredients and got it working nice with 25V rated electrolytic cap in resonant circuit. Unbelievable....

Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: TinselKoala on October 01, 2013, 04:59:40 PM
@Synchro:
thanks, yes, I think I also pointed out some time ago about biasing or tuning the reed switch with an external magnet on the other side from the actuating magnet (works with Hall sensors too)...

It is notoriously difficult to weigh magnets accurately. There are problems with just about every kind of weighing system that cause them to give inaccurate weights when you try to weigh a permanent magnet or working electromagnet. When you start adding rotation of parts or oscillating fields to the mix it becomes even more difficult. I'd need to see the _same_ degree of weight loss/gain from at least three _different_ weighing systems to be able to believe a weight gain/loss from a magnet system with moving parts. And then I'd need to construct a special apparatus or two to add yet other weighing methods for confirmation. I've done a few DePalma-type experiments myself, it was one of the things we were very interested in at a former employer's laboratory years ago.

@MileHigh:
I replied to your idea in another thread. I think it's a good one and I'll probably try it, if I can find the Bedini rotor in this pile of junk. At least I know where the op-amp chips are....

@Forest:
The cap to protect reed switch, relay, or motor commutator contacts should be a high-quality ceramic capacitor of high-voltage rating, 1 kV or better, with a low capacitance value (best found by experimentation.) It should be located as close as possible to the reed contacts themselves to minimize inductance in the cap wiring.
A good reed switch is a relatively expensive component, and all reed switches have limited lifetimes. They aren't really designed for switching inductive loads at high frequencies directly. Using a reed to switch a fast mosfet's gate voltage, letting the mosfet do the heavy lifting, is better for the reed's longevity but then you lose the "magic" of the noisy, jittery, contact-burning arcing reed.
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: synchro1 on October 02, 2013, 11:10:49 PM
@Tinselkoala,


                    I think your new op amp test motor would be a strong contender for RWG's pulse motor build off prize this year. I'm looking forward to seeing your new design perform.
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: TinselKoala on October 03, 2013, 07:33:05 AM
I don't think there's time for this year's contest, and I'm wrapped up in something else right now anyway. But when I have a little time and benchspace I'll see if MH's idea can be made to work, using the rotor/axle assembly from my Bedini SGM.
I especially like the "autostrobe" idea. I am using something like that in my Arduino Pulse Motor driver program, but that's still a work in progress and it's simmering on a back burner right now.


The site www.fasttech.com has all kinds of breakout sensor modules for Arduino, and I think I saw a couple of reed switch breakout boards listed there.
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: MileHigh on October 03, 2013, 06:39:40 PM
TK:

Just for fun...  You take it to the next level.  lol  You have your favourite 555 oscillator.  Then we go high tech and get a quand NAND gate chip, the 74XXX00.  The most useful gate chip of all!

De Morgan's law, very important:  "not (A and B)" is the same as "(not A) or (not B)"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NAND_gate (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NAND_gate)

If you were hard core you could build a gate with transistors, the schematic is right there!

You actually want an AND gate.  You do this:  Output = [Comparator] AND [555_timer]

The output from the AND gate drives your IGBT/MOSFET/transistor.   So now when the output of the comparator is TRUE the coil driver is being switched on and off by the 555 timer signal.  This takes the "slicing" of the energizing of the coil to the next level.  You can slice and dice to your heart's content and control the average amount of current that goes into the coil before you collect the back spikes.  It's arguable that this allows you to reduce the current into the coil to reduce your resistive losses in the coil itself and collect a purer form of "radiant energy."   8)

MileHigh
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: TinselKoala on October 03, 2013, 08:38:49 PM
Uhhh... OK..... but for that degree of complexity I'd probably go with the Arduino for its programmability. The idea of chopping the signal could be implemented by using one of the Arduino's PWM outputs, and gating that thru the external mosfet with another of the Arduino's digital outputs.

Meanwhile I implemented your comparator idea with a basic circuit using a TL082 opamp and a single supply. I can trigger the comparator without difficulty using a magnet swung past a coil.... but I have already identified two issues.

First... of course the voltage generated by the sense coil will depend on the speed of the magnet's passage. This means the comparator's setpoint will determine the speed of the rotor necessary to even start firing, and as the rotor speed increases the pulse width will actually increase, since the "window" of firing voltages will occur over a wider space during the magnet approach to the coil.

Second... the coil I used had to have a core. I couldn't get it to fire easily with no core. So the rotor magnets will be interacting with the core of the sense coil, which, as I understand your idea, would be mounted in a different place than the drive coil(s). This will cause mechanical problems, I think.

Now, using a ratiometric Hall sensor instead of the sense coil would allow the comparator to flip and fire the mosfet at a given magnetic field strength, which would eliminate both of the above problems I think. The firing point (translating to dwell or "on" time, I think)  could still be adjusted with the level control on the comparator, and the precise timing could be done with sensor positioning as you envisioned. (That's the way I timed my Marinov Slab and my Orbo replications, by adjusting the position of the Hall sensors.)
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: MileHigh on October 03, 2013, 10:01:35 PM
TK:

It might be more fun to do it without a microcontroller for some people.  Can you change both the frequency and the duty cycle of an Arduino PWM output without resorting to any software tricks?

Quote
First... of course the voltage generated by the sense coil will depend on the speed of the magnet's passage. This means the comparator's setpoint will determine the speed of the rotor necessary to even start firing, and as the rotor speed increases the pulse width will actually increase, since the "window" of firing voltages will occur over a wider space during the magnet approach to the coil.

Note that a conventional Bedini motor setup also exhibits the same behaviour where the relative pulse ON time per rotation increases as the rotor speed increases.  With the comparator circuit addition you have the luxury of slicing the positive hump output from the coil at any potential you want, allowing you more control over the pulse width.

Quote
Second... the coil I used had to have a core. I couldn't get it to fire easily with no core. So the rotor magnets will be interacting with the core of the sense coil, which, as I understand your idea, would be mounted in a different place than the drive coil(s). This will cause mechanical problems, I think.

In theory the comparator gives you more sensitivity.  Did you tie the opposite end of the pick-up coil to +6 volts?  If the "ground" for the coil is +6.0 volts and you set your comparator threshold to +6.1 volts then it should be very sensitive.

I envision a pick-up coil that is mounted on a right-angled stand made with wood or something.  The number of turns and the geometry of the coil and core or no-core give you a lot of options.  The "problem" with a typical Bedini setup with a single drive-pickup coil is that the receding rotor magnet induces positive EMF into the pick-up coil which switches on the transistor.  However, when the transistor switches on that induces negative EMF in the pickup coil which switches the transistor off again.  So you have an undesirable (in my opinion) negative feedback oscillator effect taking place during the firing pulse.  "Negative" in the sense that I would rather have complete control - a full pulse or a chopped pulse of my own choosing and with guaranteed clean switching.  Depending on the particular Bedini motor sometimes you see the self-oscillation, sometimes you don't.  Sometimes you see it but then it disappears as the rotor speeds up and the "regular" pulse width decreases.

When you get your reference timing signal that is 90 degrees displaced from the main driving coil, the magnetic flux from the drive coil does not cut the pickup coil very much.  In fact, just with a scope and putting a sine wave into the main drive coil, you could tweak the angle of the pickup coil so that there is near-total self cancellation in the small amount of flux that passes through the 90 degree offset pickup coil.  You can imagine the toroidal magnetic field pattern generated by the drive coil and adjust the pick-up coil angle such that it has a low cross sectional profile with near full flux-self cancellation relative to the curving magnetic field pattern of the drive coil.

MileHigh
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: TinselKoala on October 04, 2013, 01:02:27 AM
The setup I'm using has one end of the coil tied to ground and the other to the noninverting input of one amp in the TL082 through a 1n914 diode. The inverting input gets the signal from the wiper of the 10-turn, 10k trimpot, whose legs are at positive rail and ground. I'm using a single supply, just Vcc and 0. For the test load I'm using an LED and a dropping resistor. So with a blue LED, I'm using 1.8k and about 10-12 v Vcc for a brilliant LED when the comparator flips and sends the supply voltage to the output. The FET input of the op amp is so sensitive I can flip the comparator by touching a little "antenna" on the Pin 3 noninverting input, same place as the diode from the coil goes. The 10k trimmer provides precise adjustment.

But I still see the issues I raised as problems. The Bedini motor, as you point out, is self-quenching, so firing the coil at the timing point and then recirculating the shutoff spike provides a sharp "bang" to the rotor with a narrow duty cycle. This will not be the case with the speeding rotor magnets unless the comparator has extra circuitry. The comparator will stay "flipped" until the magnet starts receding again and the sign of the induced voltage changes (and is clipped by the diode.) So for increasing speed it will flip earlier and earlier. I think it will still turn off at the same place in the cycle though. So maybe this is analogous to the Bedini self-quenching. I'll just have to go on to a whole build to find out, I guess.

Two words: ratiometric Hall effect sensor. Wait, that's four words. But for simplicity and immunity they can't be beat. Allegro Microsystems rules.

ETA: I think the PWM of the Arduino normally has a fixed frequency and the user varies the duty cycle. But I think that the frequency can also be changed, by Real Programmers. Know any?

ETA2: there is another problem I just recognized. If your sense coil is 90 degrees around from the pulse coil, (4-magnet rotor) then you are triggering on a different magnet than you are driving. This means your magnet positions have to be precisely equal around the rotor, or you will have a weird repeating jitter pattern. A big advantage of the Bedini system and a Hall trigger system is that you can trigger on the same magnet you are going to drive with the pulse, so you don't have to worry about precise magnet positioning around the rotor. My Bedini motor uses a peanut-butter jar lid as the rotor and the magnet positions are ...er.... let's just say they are not to "MYLOW" levels of a hundredth of a millimeter precision.
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: TinselKoala on October 04, 2013, 01:22:53 AM
The ratiometric Hall sensor works almost like an "ideal" coil in its response to the magnetic field, but it operates on the strength itself not the rate of change of the strength like the coil does.

So you have an increasing voltage as the rotor magnet approaches the sensor, peak voltage at TDC and decreasing, but still positive, voltage as the magnet recedes. So the ordinary comparator just turns on at a certain field strength == distance from TDC and this doesn't change with speed, then turns off at the symmetrical distance after passage of TDC. If you want to turn off at a different strength, or at TDC (max field, max output from sensor) you use a window comparator, a tiny bit more complicated but still within the single chip dual opamp TL082's capability.

http://www.allegromicro.com/en/Products/Magnetic-Linear-And-Angular-Position-Sensor-ICs/Linear-Position-Sensor-ICs/A1324-5-6.aspx
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: MileHigh on October 04, 2013, 02:31:49 AM
TK:

That newfangled hardware!  You kids these days.

I will make some comments rooted back in the Old School analog days.  Also a disclaimer:  I am not trying to get you to build anything, this is just fun stuff to talk about.

Going back to your setup, you are using a diode to protect the op-amp input when the pickup coil swings below ground.  I suppose that you have a series resistor in line also?  Hard shorting of the pick-up coil output through a diode would cause Lenz drag on the rotor.  I still prefer the idea of "floating" one end of the coil at +6 volts.  That gives you the option to set your comparator voltage lower so that you can dial up an "extra wide" pulse that starts firing before top-dead-center (assuming that you are not offsetting the moveable pickup coil from the "zero angle" position).  Kind of like a dwell timing thing.  Something tells me you are probably an expert on that subject.

If the "ground" end of the coil was set to "float" at +6 volts, adding a series resistor and a set of clipping protection diodes would be very wise and I forgot that.  No point in blowing your op-amp input like a newbie.

Going back to a conventional Bedini motor, if you had one that chopped the switching signal because of the drive coil to pickup coil coupling, I would want to scope the pickup coil output waveform and examine it closely.  You seem to be indicating that the transitions would be sharp, but I am not convinced that things would "snap" like in a Joule Thief circuit.

Now here is something from the analog trick bag:  When you are looking at the pickup coil voltage waveform you will see a waveform generated from the passing magnet and the drive coil coupling.  But you still won't exactly know what kind of switching the main drive coil is experiencing because you can't reliably "see" on the output side of the transistor because the drive coil itself affects what you will see.

Supposing your DC resistance of your drive coil is 20 ohms.  Suppose also that adding some extra loading to the pickup coil output is not going to alter things drastically (to be verified on your scope.)   So you connect the pickup coil to a second base input resistor of the same value as on the motor, connected to a second identical transistor that's driving a 20-ohm purely resistive load.  In other words you copy the coil drive circuit and substitute the coil with an ordinary resistor.  When you look at the voltage waveform at the junction of the collector and the 20 ohm resistor you will be able to see how fast and clean the switching is for the drive coil.  Doing this lets you see how the transistor itself is switching on the output side.  (Note there is no need to do this when you use the op-amp comparator output - you know the transistor switching waveform will be fast and clean.)

Anyway, I know that sounds a bit crazy, but half the fun is supposed to be in the investigation.   My gut feel is telling me that when you get this oscillation phase when the drive coil is being energized, it's not necessarily with a high slew rate waveform.  Hence, you are burning off power in the transistor, which is undesirable.  It may not even be significant, I am just playing a virtual game - the challenge being to upgrade a conventional dumb Bedini motor setup so that you have more control and the switching is always fast and clean.  And do it all with analog components and do it on the cheap.

There was a time just a short while ago in the overall scheme of things when there were no microcontrollers running nearly everything and we got along just fine.  Analog electrical and analog mechanical computers and machines did just fine and nobody knew any better.  Today, it would almost be the end of the world if suddenly every microcontroller stopped functioning.

MileHigh
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: MileHigh on October 04, 2013, 02:58:04 AM
TK:

Quote
ETA2: there is another problem I just recognized. If your sense coil is 90 degrees around from the pulse coil, (4-magnet rotor) then you are triggering on a different magnet than you are driving. This means your magnet positions have to be precisely equal around the rotor, or you will have a weird repeating jitter pattern.

I really don't think that would be an issue as long as you can do a reasonable rotor build were the four magnets are indeed 90 degrees apart.  I also recognize it depends on the particular type of magnet and the magnet supplier.  However, it seems reasonable that a good magnet supplier would produce cylinder magnets that are quite consistent from one to the other.  Especially if they are from the same batch.

Since the "jitter" would be regular and repeat every four ticks, I don't see this as causing any observable issues.  Suppose you have a conventional Bedini setup and the pulse fires at +2 degrees past top dead center for all four ticks.  Then you have a modified comparator-based setup and the the pulse fires at -2, 0, +3, and -1 degrees from TDC for every rotation.  I just can't see that being an issue because of its consistent repeatability and the approximately same torque "slow impulse" applied to the rotor for every rotor magnet passing.

The big deal is you can all of a sudden start playing with the pulse timing like never before.  You are free from the "chains" of having the pickup coil being coaxial with the drive coil.

MileHigh
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: TinselKoala on October 04, 2013, 03:04:29 AM
Well, OK, so I tied the end of the coil to 1/2 Vcc thru a simple divider of 2 x 22K resistors across the supply. Now it works much better, in terms of trigger sensitivity and pulse broadness, just as you said!
 ;D

Thanks for the suggestion. I'm no op-amp expert that's for sure... but I did find a copy of the IC Op-Amp Cookbook by Walter G. Jung in the bookstore a couple months ago and I've been studying up....

Next will be to see if I can actually implement the physical arrangement to get a motor turning. I may need to wind some coils, and cut some wood...

Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: TinselKoala on October 04, 2013, 03:07:08 AM
"The big deal is you can all of a sudden start playing with the pulse timing like never before."

Well... no, not exactly like never before, not for me anyway. I commonly use Hall sensors in variable position mounts, bias them with magnets, etc. The Hall sensors I use can switch a mosfet directly so the circuits are ridiculously simple... as long as you don't look inside the Hall package, he he.
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: TinselKoala on October 04, 2013, 03:54:32 AM
 http://youtu.be/zqFOIOTYt-4 (http://youtu.be/zqFOIOTYt-4)
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: MileHigh on October 04, 2013, 04:23:33 AM
TK:

That's so cool!  I looked at your "first light" clip.  Nice choice of words.

I am not sure I understand why you have the diode in series with the coil output.  Can you explain that?

MileHigh
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: synchro1 on October 04, 2013, 04:33:51 AM
@Tinselkoala,


Why not just spin a diametric tube instead of a multi magnet rotor if the circuit triggers from both poles?


This project got really exciting very fast. I'm deeply impressed by your super speedy progress, and have developed a new found respect for MH. The entire electronics pulse motor builder group is soon bound to grow keenly focused on your project development. You're right on the cutting edge!
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: MileHigh on October 04, 2013, 05:26:24 AM
Synchro1:

Thanks for the comments.

Just for fun I could not resist checking....

MileHigh
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: Magluvin on October 04, 2013, 05:54:16 AM
So this is used as a trigger as to when to pulse the coil, instead of a reed or hall sensor or even a separate trigger coil? Will it drive the coil also? Or is that separate?

Does it fire at tdc or on the approach?

Very cool.  ;)

Mags
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: Magluvin on October 04, 2013, 05:57:59 AM
Dadhav did a circuit a few months ago that drives just about any kind of motor, and it triggers off of the drive coils. Im not sure this is similar yet.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8b4xlCKn3LQ

Mags
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: TinselKoala on October 04, 2013, 06:27:33 AM
The diode adds a little "hill" of voltage drop, and seems to give a cleaner switching. I'm just going on intuition and visual observations, I haven't scoped anything yet. Since I'm using a single ended supply I didn't want the input voltage to the op amp to go below the zero rail. It might not be necessary.

The circuit switches as the magnet approaches TDC, and this is adjustable by spacing and the pot on the circuit.

I'm using the TL082CP version.

I've made another video showing the circuit switching a mosfet driving a car light bulb. I'm also using a different coil, a lot smaller and with no core.

Here's a neat thing: the coils I'm using have a tube in the middle where I can slide a core in and out. I can position the magnet in a fixed position wrt the coil, and the comparator will flip as I pull the core in and out of the coil. This means that linear pulse motors will be very easy to implement. I didn't show this in the video yet... a fellow's got to have some secrets!

http://youtu.be/RwRB1OPQZc0 (http://youtu.be/RwRB1OPQZc0)
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: MileHigh on October 04, 2013, 06:59:40 AM
TK:

I saw your second clip, cool.

For the diode, you can actually remove it and it will be better.  Then connect an upward pointing diode from ground to pin 3 and another upward pointing diode from pin 3 to +12 volts.  The far side of the coil looks like it's connected to a +6 volt biasing voltage with an 11 kohm output impedance.  So you have that voltage source going to the coil going to the comparator input.  That's exactly what you want because there is a danger that in a pulse motor, when the rotor is at full speed you won't know how much EMF will be generated.  It could be much higher than +12 volts and blow the op-amp input.  With the two diodes in place the output EMF of the coil will be clamped to +12.6 and -0.6 volts and thus protect the input of your op-amp.

For what it's worth:  Having the diode in series like that for a pure voltage signal is like putting part of the circuit into the Twilight Zone.  When the diode is not conducting current, it very much resembles a nearly open switch.  There is a semiconductor band gap and that more or less acts as a quasi open circuit with potentially a very high impedance.  The fact that an op-amp input is super high impedance kind of saves the day and even though the voltage signal from the pickup coil is in a kind of limbo.  It's in a way ironic because the diode needs current flow to "show" a reliable output voltage, but the op-amp input does not draw any input current, perhaps nanoamperes.  But the op-amp input is so sensitive that it works anyways, a kind of "double-cross."  Does that make sense to you?

Quote
Here's a neat thing: the coils I'm using have a tube in the middle where I can slide a core in and out. I can position the magnet in a fixed position wrt the coil, and the comparator will flip as I pull the core in and out of the coil.

That's somewhat similar to how an electric guitar pickup works!

MileHigh
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: MileHigh on October 04, 2013, 07:19:37 AM
TK:

Just one other comment that's pretty straightforward.  Leave the pickup coil untouched and then play with your 10-turn pot.  You will find the threshold point where the LED goes on.  Then just back up a bit from the threshold point, perhaps just 1/4 turn so that the LED is off.

If you do that then you will be set up for maximum sensitivity and it might be surprisingly easy to make the LED flash on.

MileHigh
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: TinselKoala on October 04, 2013, 08:30:40 AM
Success!

And both the sense coil and the drive coil are _coreless_.

For some strange reason I had to put a capacitor across the drain-source of the mosfet to get it to switch properly. But there it is.

Video coming shortly.

@MH: thanks! But I got it running great before I saw your last two posts. Good common practice right out of the cookbook on the diodes you suggest, maybe I'll try it if this chip doesn't hold up. Since the sense coil is not being switched abruptly I'm not too worried about its spikes, but caution is sometimes good. Still... it works great.

http://youtu.be/C9GCunnhQ_4 (http://youtu.be/C9GCunnhQ_4)


Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: TinselKoala on October 04, 2013, 10:33:49 AM
It's up to about 1600 RPM on 24 volts to the drive coil. The switching circuit is drawing 17 mA from the 12 volt supply, including the LED strobe. If I disconnect the LED the switching circuit's draw goes to about 4 mA.

I found that the drive coil works pretty well when it's strapped to one of the frame supports. In this position, the comparator potentiometer varies the duty cycle through the whole range from all on to all off. It looks like about 60 percent HI is optimum. The cap across the coil (instead of a diode) produces an interesting ringing waveform during the off time. A diode, in addition to the cap, has a big effect on this ringdown but doesn't seem to affect the rotor RPM much. A diode across the coil was a great help for the Magnetic Levitator apparatus, though, so I'm not sure which way to go.

Without the capacitor from drain to source, the comparator behaved badly. I thought it was field from the coil causing feedback, and I wasted an hour fooling around trying to get clean pulsing with the drive coil connected. Then I just touched the circuit and noticed that it started behaving better when I touched in certain places. My body's capacitance was helping, especially when I touched both drain and source of the mosfet. So... grab a random small capacitor.... and it worked beautifully!  A 10 nF , 80 V poly film cap.
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: MileHigh on October 04, 2013, 03:24:46 PM
TK:

Off to the races.  I am assuming that with your scope and the judicious placement of one or more tiny decoupling caps you will make the pulse firing rock solid.

If you assume as an example that firing the drive coil between 5 and 10 degrees past TDC imparts the most torque on the rotor, then by adjusting the pot and the pick-up coil angle you can position the energizing pulse to fire between 5 and 10 degrees.  To be more specific, you probably need a kind of "dwell angle" advanced timing for the energizing pulse to get some current flow through the coil ahead of time to give the push at the optimum angle.  It all depends on how short or long the L/R time constant is for the drive coil.  So by observing that on a scope you can get a sense of whether or not you need to move the pick-up coil angle to create the advanced dwell angle.  Of course, you have the scope trigger from the comparator output so seeing the current rise in the coil relative to the firing pulse is easy as pie.

Then with one multimeter showing you the current consumption and a tach showing you the RPM, and the flashing LED showing you the live pulse angle, you can play with the pot and the pick-up coil angle and pickup coil radial distance to position the energizing pulse right at the sweet spot.  You may want to maximize the RPM or you may want to try to get maximum RPM per watt of input.

MileHigh
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: TinselKoala on October 04, 2013, 03:34:57 PM
Current version:


Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: TinselKoala on October 04, 2013, 04:50:54 PM
But...but.... what about all that Bedini action, HV spikes and neons and cap charging and all of that action? This motor is like from Dullsville, man... or is it?

I've now added a NE-2 neon across the 10 nF capacitor from Drain to Source of the mosfet. With S1 closed, bypassing the 1n914 diode, I get extreme spikes of over 250 volts from the drive coil, and these can be utilized in the usual ways, like lighting the neon or charging external caps/batts/whatever. In this mode the rotor actually accelerates even more, and I can trim the potentiometer setting for a bit more ON time in the duty cycle and get substantially more RPM than with S1 open.

Speed right now is 2140 RPM. The scope trace is at 2 ms/div horizontally and 50 V/div vertically, and there are 4 pulses per revolution, so the frequency in Hz shown on the scope x 15 = RPM.

Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: TinselKoala on October 04, 2013, 05:16:38 PM
Last night when I made the last few posts I was pretty tired. The capacitor is as shown in the schematic, not "across the coil" but rather between Drain and Source of the mosfet, i.e. across the whole power section.

Putting a recirculation diode in the usual position across the coil completely stops all the spike action and makes the Drain signal a clean square wave. But this also decreases the speed of the rotor.

I don't have the inspiration right now to do much more solid mechanical build, to find the real optimum coil positioning and mounting. The comparator set-pot works perfectly to control the duty cycle through the whole range, although the setting is a bit narrow. It might be good to use a smaller value pot here for more spread on the settings.

The thing is running "hot straight and normal" right now, very quiet, brilliant NE2 and about 2150 RPM. I haven't looked at the current draw from the 24v run batteries yet, but as I said before, the switching section uses very little power, especially if I kill the LED.

The LED autostrobe isn't really satisfactory due to the jitter and the fact that it fires on every magnet. It would be better to fire it only once per revolution of the rotor, or have a rotor magnet placement that was precise enough to not jitter. I may try a one-magnet rotor just for grins.... then the strobe would work properly.
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: TinselKoala on October 04, 2013, 06:03:54 PM
Sense coil and drive coil (mosfet drain) signals.

The horizontal timebase is at 2 millisec/div. so the frequency shown is about 150 Hz, times 15 = 2250 RPM.
Channel 1 is the mosfet drain, DC coupled at 50 v/div, and the spike is off the screen at over 250 volts. Zero volt baseline is the center graticule marker, also indicated by the mark on the right.
Channel 2 is the sense coil signal, AC coupled at 1 v/div. Since it's offset by 6 volts (the 22k - 22k divider puts it at half the switch Vcc) the true baseline is off the screen bottom. The 6V level is the "baseline" indicated by the mark on the right of the screen.

ETA: The reduction in the ringing waveform is due to the fact that I have a core (a 1/4" steel bolt) inserted in the drive coil. This increases the RPM slightly but damps out the nice ringing oscillation completely if I insert it far enough.

Look at how accurately the comparator detects the "zero crossing" or rather the crossing of the 6V level by the sense signal! It is very precise.
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: TinselKoala on October 04, 2013, 06:37:10 PM
It would be nice to have the autostrobe work properly. But flashing on every magnet passage makes it flash 4 times per revolution, so you get a blur instead of a frozen image like you need. One flash per revolution will give the strobe effect properly.
So... digital logic, divide-by-four pulse counter? Or is there an analog way, perhaps using an RC circuit?

I can do it pretty easily using a 4017, I think.
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: synchro1 on October 04, 2013, 06:37:34 PM
@TK,


       Unquestionably the highest state of the art in pulse motor circuitry to date. Congratulations on perfecting duty cycle control so elegantly. The speed up coupled with increased back power out defies customary logic. I wonder if a loop back to source would produce a self runner? The 250 volt back spikes are awesome! I bet JLN will bench test a replication.
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: MileHigh on October 04, 2013, 07:08:06 PM
TK:

Quote
It would be nice to have the autostrobe work properly. But flashing on every magnet passage makes it flash 4 times per revolution, so you get a blur instead of a frozen image like you need. One flash per revolution will give the strobe effect properly.
So... digital logic, divide-by-four pulse counter? Or is there an analog way, perhaps using an RC circuit?

"Well, how low can you go?" - asked the Limbo Man.  How about an ultra low tech solution for a high tech problem?

The top of your rotor drum looks like there is silver gaffer's tape on it or perhaps metal foil tape?  Perhaps you can remove it to make a clean surface.  Then I would suggest that you put just one dot lined up over one of the magnets.  Perhaps do it with White-Out correction fluid or a White-Out marker.  Perhaps even just a tiny piece of white paper glued in place.

That's it!  There is nothing else to do!  Just mark the TDC on the top of your red rotor for one of your four magnets and you are done.

A piece of cake!

MileHigh

PS:  Supposing that you put a white dot on the top surface of the drum at the outer edge.  Then if you wanted you could put another dot over the next magnet at TDC but this time it's not at the edge, you move radially inwards by a little bit.  Repeat the process for the remaining two magnets.

Now look at what you have created:  You have four separate and distinct "arcs" or "stripes" that you can see when the LED strobe illuminates the top of the spinning rotor drum.  So that means you can actually see what the timing looks like for the pulse firing for each individual rotor magnet.
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: synchro1 on October 04, 2013, 08:59:34 PM

Quote from MH:

"That's it!  There is nothing else to do!  Just mark the TDC on the top of your red rotor for one of your four magnets and you are done."


Not so fast! All that will do is show the dot moving around all four different quadrants, not freezing at one!
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: TinselKoala on October 04, 2013, 10:25:42 PM
Synchro is right, because the LED flashes with each magnet passage, with a single dot on the rotor, you will see four blurry images with the dot in each of the four positions, and arcs will be even worse. The flash has to happen once per rotation of the rotor, and there's another complication: the pulse is too broad to freeze motion. The rotor moves many degrees during a single flash of the LED! The pulse width required to properly freeze the motion of the rotor is surprisingly narrow. This narrowness makes the light from a standard LED pretty dim. Usable, but dim.

The 4017 solution to divide by 4 (or whatever other number from 0 to 9) is very easy to implement. Shortening the output pulse to the LED is harder... it has to be really short.

Please watch my next videos. I'm processing and they should be ready in a half hour or so.

Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: synchro1 on October 04, 2013, 10:43:32 PM
@TK,


       You could cut a narrow slit through a piece of paper and tape it to the LED.
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: MileHigh on October 04, 2013, 11:07:32 PM
I guess it depends what you want the strobe to do.  I wanted the "strobe" to be ON when the drive coil is being energized.  So it's not a "flashing strobe" it's a constant illumination for a short period time during the conduction angle.  I will call it a "pulse of light" to avoid confusion.

If you have only one dot on the top of the rotor then and there are four pulses of light per rotation, then what do you get?   Supposing that you are illuminating the area near the drive coil, and you are _looking_ at the area near the drive coil.   The first pulse of light illuminates the dot and you see a streak of white corresponding to the full conduction angle showing when the coil is energized.  The other three flashes just illuminate the red surface of the rotor.  So for every four pulses of light you get, "white-streak, red, red, red" and then it repeats.  This should still be easily visible to your eyes.  The white streak might look "translucent" but it will still be there.

There is no intention to freeze motion with the light pulse - you want to observe the changing conduction angle as you tweak the setup.
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: TinselKoala on October 04, 2013, 11:08:41 PM
http://youtu.be/iAke4OxujiE (http://youtu.be/iAke4OxujiE)


Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: TinselKoala on October 04, 2013, 11:21:43 PM
I guess it depends what you want the strobe to do.  I wanted the "strobe" to be ON when the drive coil is being energized.  So it's not a "flashing strobe" it's a constant illumination for a short period time during the conduction angle.  I will call it a "pulse of light" to avoid confusion.

If you have only one dot on the top of the rotor then and there are four pulses of light per rotation, then what do you get?   Supposing that you are illuminating the area near the drive coil, and you are _looking_ at the are near the drive coil.   The first pulse of light illuminates the dot and you see a streak of white corresponding to the full conduction angle showing when the coil is energized.  The other three flashes just illuminate the red surface of the rotor.  So for every four pulses of light you get, "white-streak, red, red, red" and then it repeats.  This should still be easily visible to your eyes.  The white streak might look "translucent" but it will still be there.

There is no intention to freeze motion with the light pulse - you want to observe the changing conduction angle as you tweak the setup.
Just please watch the video. All you see under your conditions is a blur. Don't forget that I have the hardware set up, this is NOT a thought experiment for me! You will never be able to see the angular display you are looking for under ordinary illumination. The way to get what you want is to have a double flash strobe hitting the beginning and trailing edges of the longish dwell.
I also have a bit of experience with strobes, flash photography, engine and motor timing issues, digital and analog electronics. As well as operating test equipment in order to make it do what I need to do. Just watch the video, it will be ready soon.
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: TinselKoala on October 04, 2013, 11:22:55 PM
@TK,


       You could cut a narrow slit through a piece of paper and tape it to the LED.

ROFL!!!
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: MileHigh on October 05, 2013, 01:43:45 AM
TK:

I watched your clip and I think the strobing with the LED actually works pretty well.  I still think that with the LED illuminating a white dot from behind so the reflected light bouncing off the dot is directed at your eyes the effect will be good enough to get the job done.  You could indeed pulse the light on the start and end of the coil pulse on every fourth tick which will add complexity but it is still doable.  This was mentioned primarily for people without scopes to give them a home brew "rotary scope" for their pulse motors.  All part of the "do it on the cheap" theme.  When you have a real scope, all of the start and stop angle information is right there on your scope display.

Anyway, you are the builder so do your thing!  You have already demonstrated the main bells and whistles.  In your first working motor clip the pickup coil was fixed and the drive coil was moveable.  So moving the drive coil angular position in this case would allow you to move the timing of the start of the pulse.  You mentioned that the comparator can cut the pickup coil waveform at whatever potential you dial up with your 10-turn pot to produce the drive pulse for the main coil.  You mentioned the signals seem to be clean and sharp.  So it's pretty much done and it's all gravy from this point on.

The nice stable output from the comparator is nice in the sense that you can use the rising edge or the falling edge to trigger your scope and look at any signal you want if you want to try to optimize the pulse motor.

MileHigh
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: TinselKoala on October 05, 2013, 01:44:05 AM
Monostable 555 takes input pulses and shortens them.... completes strobe part of circuit.


Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: MileHigh on October 05, 2013, 01:47:20 AM
TK:

If I could make just one clip request it would be this:  Trigger on the pickup coil waveform and display the comparator output on the other channel and play with the 10-turn pot.  That will show the "voltage threshold slicing" in a very dramatic fashion and might blow some minds.

MileHigh
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: TinselKoala on October 05, 2013, 02:35:59 AM
@TK,


       Unquestionably the highest state of the art in pulse motor circuitry to date. Congratulations on perfecting duty cycle control so elegantly. The speed up coupled with increased back power out defies customary logic. I wonder if a loop back to source would produce a self runner? The 250 volt back spikes are awesome! I bet JLN will bench test a replication.

I wouldn't go that far... I think Farmhand's circuits are more sophisticated and potentially useful. And let's not forget that this was MileHigh's original idea, I am just running with it and making it practical. I think this method has a lot going for it and I have already thought up some great linear and pendulum kinds of things that would make good use of the circuitry.

I really don't think that the spikes could be collected and looped back to make it run itself. But for other things, yes. Recirculating them might slow the rundown or even make it accelerate but it will always run out of energy and stop. I'd love to be proved wrong about this, and I'm trying to do it myself....

Yes, I'm a bit surprised by the spikes too, and without cores too. I'll start doing collection experiments in a couple of days.

Heh... If Jean-Louis does it, it will look nice, run nice and he might even make it be OU.... he has good luck that way.
 ;D
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: TinselKoala on October 05, 2013, 02:59:48 AM
TK:

If I could make just one clip request it would be this:  Trigger on the pickup coil waveform and display the comparator output on the other channel and play with the 10-turn pot.  That will show the "voltage threshold slicing" in a very dramatic fashion and might blow some minds.

MileHigh

OK, It's coming up in the next video which is processing right now. Go have a beverage, walk the dog, it will probably be ready by then. I'm not sure if it shows what you think it will but it certainly shows how varying the pot setting changes the points on the slope of the sense signal where the mosfet turns on and off.

You know, at this point I still don't know if the thing is working in attraction or repulsion mode! I guess I had better check.

ETA: Attraction mode. I'll have to try repulsion mode too.

 http://youtu.be/oDQi4nV-WnE (http://youtu.be/oDQi4nV-WnE)

Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: MileHigh on October 05, 2013, 04:51:40 AM
TK:

Thanks for that.... Can you play Free Bird now?  lol

It looks like your tuning has improved yet again, the rotor seemed to be really moving.  The strobe effect also looked great.  There is some peach fuzzyish noise but that could be eliminated.

You can see how you have complete control over the main coil pulse firing a.k.a. pulse triggering.  It's much better than just playing with the value of a base resistor.  Also, the pick-up coil is a "pure EMF" device now and has no load on it at all.  It does not have to push current through the base of a NPN transistor anymore, the op-amp would take care of that if you had a transistor-based design.

When you look at the short-lived "Bedini 10-coiler" I think it was made by creating one humungous 20-watt base input resistor that drove all 10 transistors.  There was a huge load on the pickup coil.  That's about as low tech as you can get and if the transistors didn't match then you would have had problems.

You now have the technology, faster, stronger, the world's first op-ampatronic pulse motor.

MileHigh
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: MileHigh on October 05, 2013, 05:03:29 AM
Just as a frame of reference for Old School, this is a US Navy clip about the positioning systems for the big guns on battleships:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_8aH-M3PzM0

It's a film that has been cut into 6-minute slices so you can watch the rest if you are interested.  What's amazing is that the the big guns were controlled by a team of men putting data into a huge mechanical analog computer.  All of the computing was done in real time using gears and special cams that had mathematical functions built into the physical shape of the cams.   Besically a giant analog mechanical computer to land shells on targets and blow them to smithereens.

MileHigh
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: Pirate88179 on October 05, 2013, 08:04:43 AM
Just as a frame of reference for Old School, this is a US Navy clip about the positioning systems for the big guns on battleships:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_8aH-M3PzM0 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_8aH-M3PzM0)

It's a film that has been cut into 6-minute slices so you can watch the rest if you are interested.  What's amazing is that the the big guns were controlled by a team of men putting data into a huge mechanical analog computer.  All of the computing was done in real time using gears and special cams that had mathematical functions built into the physical shape of the cams.   Besically a giant analog mechanical computer to land shells on targets and blow them to smithereens.

MileHigh

MH:

Didn't click the link yet but this sounds a lot like the Babbage engine? 

TK's device using your idea is, of course, brilliant but, I have a concern that when the Nobel Prize folks see a peanut butter lid used in the device, it might scare them.  We need to come up with a better rotor that is more sophisticated...maybe something like silicon or glass or gold?  At the very least it should be painted flat black.  Then, no one would know what the material actually is.

Great suggestion on this one MH.

Bill
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: TinselKoala on October 05, 2013, 09:15:42 AM
Unfortunately all my good tooling is still up in Canada. I hope somebody is getting some use out of it.  So I am restricted to what I can gnaw out of raw materials with my front teeth.

The rotor and frame are from the project where I helped a newbie to get his Bedini SGM running. It was an excuse for me to build one, so I did. The rotor is a peanut butter jar lid, but you could also use a mayonnaise jar lid, if you don't like peanut butter.

The axle is a long brass screw, 1/4-20, head cut off, ends pointed by chucking the screw in a drill and turning the screw against the running bench grinder wheel until a nice point is made on the exact axis of the screw.

A couple of wooden washers (scrap from the hole saw) spread the force and allow for some radial adjustment before clamping down on the lid. The magnets are inside the lid, of course: never rely on just adhesives to hold your magnets in a moving assembly, always use structure to do it. I sanded or cut away the inner threads on the plastic lid so the magnets would sit flat, then they are glued in place with 3M-Permatex yellow weatherstrip adhesive, the best glue for this kind of thing. Sticks to everything, remains slightly flexible when cured, and is removable if you really need to remove it. The black is not so good, always use the yellow. Takes 10 or 15 minutes to get a good bond, follow directions, it's a "rubber cement" kind of thing.

The points of the axle go into hardened setscrews for the pivot bearings. Good setscrews have a little conical indentation on the end that is perfect for bearings. End play adjustment is critical with pivot bearings so build in an easy way to do it, and have a stable build. The axle will also grow in length as the temperature warms up and this will reduce end play and may cause binding.

Shades of Steorn's Hot Lights Bearings! They actually told the truth about those jeweled bearings being damaged by decreased end play caused by heating of frame and axle parts.


Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: synchro1 on October 05, 2013, 04:42:05 PM
@TK,


       Consider Skycollection's approach: Four bar magnets attached to a magnetic axle by the south pole covered with a brass sleeve. Combining his approach with my internal ceramic bearings would create a superior hybrid monopole rotor. He has a set of levitating bearings on the axel ends. Turning the axel along with the rotor slows his top end to about half the 50k I achieve with my internal bearings.


We reduce the inner axel to a stationary 1/8" brass rod. This mounts inside a sturdy PVC coupling to protect against a shattering. Next, the four bar magnets are stuck to a hollow 1/4"magnetic tube, and the race of precision ceramic bearings ride in between. This four magnet monopole rotor would be safe and approach Mach speeds as mine did.


A hole can easily be cut in one side of the coupling for the sensor coil, and another on the other side for the strobe window. The power coil can mount on the top while the pancake output coils rest on the bottem. A compact, safe high speed motor generator. The important advantage is that the RPM's will run over the Lenz delay threshold speed. This design eliminates your "end play" adjustment problem.
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: TinselKoala on October 05, 2013, 06:13:22 PM
Yes, it's a good idea, but as I have tried to emphasize I don't have my precision lathe and milling machine here so I cannot work to the precision necessary to make a good highspeed machine. Thanks for the design idea though. I'm always interested in going faster, and I have my doubts about the validity of some of the high speeds that have been cited, as you know, since I've not seen calibrations or concurrently valid measurements, just an assumption that the driving frequency is equal to the rotation rate.


Meanwhile, back to the MHOP:

The neon you see in what I've shown so far is connected between the mosfet Drain and the Source. This clearly puts the 250 volt inductive spike through the neon back to ground. But... the neon also flashes just as well if it is connected to the Drain and the _positive_ pole of the battery. The spike is a lot more "positive" than the positive battery voltage! (This can be seen as having the neon "across the coil" too.) So clearly, again, the spike energy is going back into the battery when the neon fires in this configuration.

This whole setup seems a lot more controllable and "rational" than the standard Bedini setup, and it clearly produces the same kind of sharp inductive spikes and ringdown. And it's easy to put the spike back into the battery thru the neon, or less spectacularly through a diode. And if you don't want or need the Strobe LED and just want an indicator of firing, then you don't need anything downstream of the op-amp: you can just ditch the 4017 decade counter and the 555 pulse narrower. You still have to have a heavy transistor for the switching element but you can now use a mosfet instead of the lossy 2n3055! The IRFP360 that I am using stays cold, the coil stays cool... but the 1/4 inch bolt that I can use for a core heats up a little bit. But the motor actually runs better and makes prettier ringdowns without the core! You still get the huge spikes because of the clean switching of the mosfet. The op-amp acts almost like a mosfet gate driver, in that it delivers a clean pulse with good current, to fill the mosfet's gate capacitance quickly, and it turns off quickly too.


Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: synchro1 on October 05, 2013, 10:21:48 PM
@Tk,


       Milling a center groove inside a long threadless square nut would allow us to seat one centered ceramic bearing, and eliminate precessional axel torque entirely. This is how I ran my protoype in the end. We can seat the bar magnets into the perpendicular surfaces of the nut then cover them with a sleeve, and use non-magnetic metal.


       We see Magnetman currently selling his alleged overunity generator on his new Free Energy thread right now, despite his sloppy measurments, the Hattem magnetic cogging device shown by MindFreer, and demonstrated again by Igor "Mopozco" show that COP'S>1 may be possible. A magnet core output coil in the base of this kind of generator has the potential to perhaps deliver extra power output.
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: TinselKoala on October 05, 2013, 11:33:14 PM
@synchro: yes, being able to do things like milling slots in long nuts etc is nice and I'd be doing it if I had my Sherline tools here... but I don't. I am not into the frustration involved in trying to make something with a drill press and files that will spin stably at hundreds of thousands of RPM.

You should turn up your skepticism level a bit, I think.
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: TinselKoala on October 06, 2013, 01:53:17 AM
Note: For the 555 pulse shortener, please change the 0.1 uF tantalum cap to a 1.0 uF tantalum, and make sure to use a 10k ten-turn pot. This makes the strobe LED brighter and gives more adjustability of its pulse width.


Meanwhile... no starting spin necessary:

http://youtu.be/v6cnGK_dlwA (http://youtu.be/v6cnGK_dlwA)
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: TinselKoala on October 06, 2013, 03:14:41 AM
A slight revision to the basic circuit diagram:

Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: synchro1 on October 06, 2013, 04:49:47 AM
@TK,


        I believe a 3D printer can manufacture the rotor part I described, and the design file can go into public domain freeware like Lasersaber's miser motor, accessable to all. Everything else is store bought. The rotor sleeve can be printed too with a square inside. This gives us two firewalls including the PVC housing to protect us from high speed disintegration. I believe a superior rotor and shatterproof housing like this would couple well with your brilliant MHOP circuit design, much more elegant than anything Farmhand ever created.
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: TinselKoala on October 06, 2013, 06:08:39 AM
Not my design, exactly. Mile High laid out the idea, the working principle and all the specifications, I just built it. And he gave me some critical advice along the way, too.

I solved a couple of problems and learned a lot building it, and it's not done yet. The op-amp board needs to have a regulated 12 volt supply that runs from the same batteries that drive the coil, and that's tomorrow's task. Some mechanical cleanup and the implementation of the adjustable positioning of one of the coils, for exact timing, will also be done tomorrow, I think.

I also think the sense coil can be a lot smaller, but I don't have any small magnet wire, just lots of #27.

I'm not sure I'd trust something made on a consumer-grade 3d printer rotating at high speeds. But I have no experience with those things, they have suddenly appeared while I was on Mars or something and I don't think I've ever actually worked with a printed part.
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: MileHigh on October 06, 2013, 07:04:47 AM
TK:

Thanks for giving credit where credit is due.  The MileHigh pulse motor circuit has a certain ring to it.  It's "radically different" from just about anything we have seen before.  To tell the truth I have mentioned it many times in the past but nobody would acknowledge it.  So I am glad and thank you for building it.  Perhaps it will get the creative juices flowing with some of the pulse motor builders.  That includes trying different sense coils.

The challenge for the pulse motor builders is to relate the geometry of the rotor magnet and it's associated magnetic field with the geometry of the sense coil and the resultant EMF output.  It's about understanding the interactions.  You have to be able to look at the scope trace of the sense coil output and try to understand why it is the way it appears on the scope and relate that to your setup.  Then perhaps try another geometry for the sense coil and look at the scope trace and try to understand that.  In other words, understand the basic interactions between a magnet and a coil.  That way you can start to design your motor with the physical configuration of the rotor and the drive coil and the sense coil in mind.  To do a mini rant of sorts, how many times have you heard people say, "How many turns and what gauge of wire for your coil?"  Do they actually use that information in a meaningful way beyond just by-the-numbers replication?  Chances are in the majority of cases, the answer is no.

Probably the next step for pulse motor builders is to look at the current waveform in the drive coil when it is energized and understand how the inductance and resistance of the coil wire and equivalent series resistance of the drive circuit affects the rising current waveform.  Also look at what influence the passing rotor magnets have on the rising current waveform.  So perhaps a standard investigation for builders would be to look at the current waveform without any rotor interaction and then look at the current waveform with the rotor spinning and understand the differences between the two (assuming there are differences).

Some people in this hobby advance and improve their skill set and knowledge year after year and some people just tread water year after year.  Perhaps the MileHigh pulse motor circuit will encourage some people to push themselves to learn and experiment more.

Here is a thought:  If you have a rotor with four magnets spaced 90 degrees apart, what is your maximum desirable conduction angle starting from top-dead-center with the assumption that our design goal is for maximum RPM?  The answer is 45 degrees.  I am not asking you TK, but rather I am asking the greater pulse motor builder readership:  Why is it 45 degrees?  This is just an example of the little details that all can go into making a better pulse motor.

Note that with the MileHigh pulse motor circuit you should be able to set the conduction angle to exactly 45 degrees with a minimum of fuss with near-perfect switching.  In contrast, with a conventional Bedini transistor-based design this would be impossible to do.

MileHigh
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: MileHigh on October 06, 2013, 07:39:50 AM
I also think it's worth mentioning again that there is no current flow in the sense coil.  The sense coil is a "pure EMF" device.  So that means that you can try a sense coil with thousands of turns based on super fine wire if you want to.  You can do anything you want.

However, like a proverbial chipmunk cracking an acorn eventually you will build up the knowledge to make your own design choices.  You might need an 800-turn sense coil or you might not.  Making those kinds of design decisions are supposed to be part of the fun.

MileHigh
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: TinselKoala on October 06, 2013, 08:05:55 AM
Yep.

I particularly like the fact that a starting spin is not needed, and that it will run in either direction and still make all the spike and HV action you could desire. Also the strobe LED is really a neat feature. It allows tuning to the sweet spot instantly.


Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: synchro1 on October 06, 2013, 08:11:00 AM
@TK,


       The computer generated design file can be emailed to professional 3D printer outfits, there are a handful, who print on the most sophisticated printers. The choice of materials includes a variety of metals. They make castings from the 3D molds. Try and catch up with the process simply by typing 3D printer in the google search engine, and spending a half hour in study. I'll go ahead with my project independently, then after testing and uploading a video, you'll be free to download and email the design file to the printer site of your choice. Naturally, you are required to pay them, then they express mail you the finished part. NASA is building internal rocket engine parts this way. You guys are invited to suggest magnet strengths if you want to, or anything else. Let me point out that the current design would allow us the versatility of selecting between two or four monopoles or a bipolar and staggered polarity of four.


       A compact and nearly frictionless high speed rotor of this size would only require a thread spool size power coil to reach top speed, and I believe also a sensor coil of the same dimension and Ohmic resistance would be best. My power coil was a series bifilar, not to resurrect the old vendeta, because it goes faster.
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: conradelektro on October 06, 2013, 11:15:10 AM
................
I also think the sense coil can be a lot smaller, but I don't have any small magnet wire, just lots of #27.
.................
@TK:
 
You could use the coil from a relay as a sense coil

http://www.overunity.com/13523/has-anyone-seen-lasersabers-new-motor-runs-on-1000uf-cap/msg363167/#msg363167 (http://www.overunity.com/13523/has-anyone-seen-lasersabers-new-motor-runs-on-1000uf-cap/msg363167/#msg363167),
http://www.overunity.com/13523/has-anyone-seen-lasersabers-new-motor-runs-on-1000uf-cap/msg363297/#msg363297 (http://www.overunity.com/13523/has-anyone-seen-lasersabers-new-motor-runs-on-1000uf-cap/msg363297/#msg363297)

with or without the core. I  guess any relay would do. 24V or 48V relays have more wire and higher DC resistance.

It is a bit tricky to get the coil out of some relays. I do it with a hack saw, a drill and a file. The relay has to be held in a vice. The soldering posts should be left in place in order to avoid handling of the very thin wire.
 
The drilling is best done with a box column drill press while the relay is held in a machine vice. In most relays the coil core has to be drilled free on one side (usually from the base of the relay). But this could be done with a file.

Did you try "repulsion mode" with your set up?

Very nice sensing circuit and the TL082 is a very interesting and versatile OpAmp.

Greetings, Conrad
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: TinselKoala on October 06, 2013, 12:06:16 PM
@synchro: thanks, that's very generous of you.

@conrad: Yes, I've considered using a relay coil for the sense coil. I have a handful of little relays from TV sets that aren't much good to me because they are normally open SPST. I want to stay coreless for both coils though and I'm not sure about getting the core out of one of those coils. I may have to just unwind the wire and wind onto a different former with no metal core. Getting the coil out of the relay is not problem, it's getting the core out of the coil. It would be too nice to find that they used a slipon bobbin that just slips off the corepiece.

I haven't yet tried repulsion mode. I want to arrange for one or the other of the coils to be movable for timing first. Right now the thing is "by chance" timed well and will run very well in either direction. It is easier to start using the setpoint pot alone in the "wrong" direction but it reaches slightly greater final RPM in the "right" direction. I have the starting technique now, it's very easy to start just by turning the setpoint pot properly.
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: TinselKoala on October 06, 2013, 01:44:19 PM
New sense coil, made from a relay core. It took about half an hour with file, hacksaw and nippers to get it out and remove the core.

It produces a higher voltage peak (surprise surprise) and I'm still experimenting with mounting location.


Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: TinselKoala on October 06, 2013, 07:25:33 PM
The switching electronics may not need to be tightly regulated, just heavily filtered. I just tested it and there's no change in the motor behaviour at speed, with a supply of 8 1/2 to 15 volts DC to the opamp/LED strobe circuitry.


And I have to report a major error in my reporting.

The rotor isn't made from a peanut butter jar lid at all.

It is actually a Folger's Instant Coffee jar lid.

I apologize if this has caused any confusion. Replicators will have to see if they can trade their leftover PB for some instant coffee.

 :o
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: MileHigh on October 06, 2013, 07:46:31 PM
TK:

Keep on trucking!   Again standard disclaimer, I am just going to make some comments but I am not asking you to do anything.  You just play around at your own pace and do your thing.  The comments are meant to be generic for everyone to consider.

I can see from the scope shot that you are working in attraction mode.  From your last clip we saw the drive coil and the sensor coil are roughly opposite each other.  Notice in your scope shot above that when the MOSFET shuts OFF that the change in flux from the drive coil is picked up by the sensor coil.  Obviously the motor is functioning fine and the switching looks very clean.  In a typical Bedini motor with a coaxial drive and sensor coil, we assume that switching the drive coil ON tends to induce EMF in the sensor coil to switch the drive coil OFF.  Conversely, we assume that switching the drive coil OFF will tend to induce EMF in the sensor coil to switch the drive coil ON.  Now in your case, we have the sensor coil rotated by roughly 180 degrees and on the opposite side of the rotor.  Therefore, one can assume that switching the drive coil OFF would tend to induce EMF in the sensor coil to switch the drive coil OFF.  That would tend to reenforce the process and create a "snap" action.   Note however, that it's not that simple because we see a "doublet" impulse spike induced on the sensor coil EMF.  We assume that the op-amp input is very sensitive and this will cause a tiny glitch on the op-amp output.  From what I can see it looks like there is the initial switch OFF, followed right away by a very short switch ON for a few microseconds.  That is shown in the "extra thickness" of the rising edge of the drive coil waveform, and the "doublet" impulse we see on the sensor coil waveform.

Again, I realize that you are doing your thing and there is nothing "wrong" in the last clip and the waveforms captures you posted.  You can see how there is an advantage to having the sensor coil at 90 degrees to the drive coil to greatly reduce the mutual induction between the drive coil and the sensor coil.   Also, a very very tiny cap between the sensor coil input on the TL082 and the pin 4 ground on the TL082 should help.  You would have to scope this and find the "Goldilocks" value that just filters the EMF signal from the sensor coil a tiny little bit.  Similarly, a 0.1 uF capacitor between the -ve input on the TL082 (pin 2), and the pin 4 ground should help.  This is the output from your 10-turn potentiometer.  So adding a small decoupling cap here works to ensure that your reference threshold voltage is inherently stable.  I see that you added the 220 uF and the 0.1 uF for the power for the TL082 which is great.

What you are trying to do is create a stable voltage environment for the TL082 for it's power, as well as for the two differential inputs.  The critical thing is to not over decouple the EMF coming from the sensor coil.  You just want to give it the lightest of decoupling so that you reduce or eliminate any high frequency noise on the signal.  Too much decoupling capacitance and you risk creating an LC tank circuit which you want to avoid like the plague.

Anyway, thanks again for making clips and doing screen shots.  I am amazed that you have more than 500 clips up on your YouTube channel now.  Note that you also have a "lid motor" going.  How about them apples!

MileHigh
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: MileHigh on October 06, 2013, 08:22:02 PM
Just a few comments about switching and coupling as more food for thought.

For starters, since we are playing with coils and differential inputs on an op-amp, there are many ways to invert the signals.  Let's assume that we are not going to include the rotor magnets as an option, they will remain fixed.

What are the options for "inverting the logic" of the motor?

I can think of:

- swap the wires on the drive coil
- swap the wires on the sensor coil
- swap the -ve and +ve inputs on the op-amp
- you could even invert the logic on the drive coil itself and tie one end to ground instead of +12 volts and change the driver circuitry

What is the point of all of this?  Let's assume that you simply can't eliminate the mutual coupling between the drive coil and the sensor coil.  However, you should be able to use that coupling to your advantage.  Note that you have to keep in mind that the op-amp inputs are very sensitive, and the amplification gain on the output from the differential inputs is typically in the millions or greater.  Any kind of differential noise on the differential inputs in an op-amp comparator configuration will make the op-amp output toggle between ground and +12 volts at the same speed as the noise.

To use the mutual coupling to your advantage you want this to happen:  When the you switch the drive coil ON, then the EMF induced in the sensor coil from the mutual coupling wants to switch the drive coil ON.  Similarly, when you switch the drive coil OFF, the EMF induced in the sensor coil from the mutual coupling tends to switch the drive coil OFF.

So as you can see, you don't necessarily have to obsess on reducing or eliminating the EMF induced in the sensor coil from the switching of the drive coil.  You don't necessarily have to obsess on getting the sensor coil at 90 degrees and the precise offset angle to reduce or eliminate the mutual coupling.

Instead, you could easily live with a small amount of mutual coupling and try to use it to your advantage.  It's arguable that if the small amount of mutual coupling reenforces the switching, then you will get the "snap" effect in both directions.  With the right configuration and the judicious application of capacitive filtering on the -ve and +ve inputs on the op-amp, you could get rock-solid clean and robust switching.  The fun part is that you have to put your thinking cap on and figure out what the logic of the coupling is doing.  You might have to invert the logic somewhere, or you might not.

Note that the op-amp switching is already very clean, so you are not looking for extra slew rate with the "snap," you don't need it.  Rather, the "snap" is there to improve the robustness and overall noise immunity of the circuit to external influences.

MileHigh
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: TinselKoala on October 06, 2013, 09:13:04 PM
Yes, it was always the intention to have the sense coil at about 90 degrees from the drive coil, I just didn't have the mount made for that yet. But I do now. Now I have full control over timing (by moving the sense coil around in angular position) and dwell (the setpoint control) and I can start the rotor in either direction simply by manipulating the setpoint control, no manual starting spin necessary.

Yes, I'll scatter some decoupling caps around the circuit, and there is a bit of glitchiness, perhaps due to coupling between the coils, but overall the thing is working great, and even has a fair amount of torque once it's spinning at speed. The duty cycle for best speed is about 65-70 percent ON.

I have the switching electronics running off the low side 12 volt battery of the 24 volt stack now, no regulator or external separate PS needed.

In the photo, which is a top view, the Drive coil axis is just about the same as the twisted green wires on the left. The drive coil itself is black and hard to see but it's the same one in the same place as before. The Sense coil is mounted on a bit of threaded plastic rod, which is mounted to the black popsickle stick which is pivoted on the top pivot bearing mount, so it stays concentric with the rotor as I vary the angular position (timing).

ETA: How can you tell it's operating in attraction mode? I haven't tried it in repulsion mode yet, so I don't know for certain, but it seems to me, in my morning fog, that the waveforms and the phase relationship between the sense and drain signals will still be the same.
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: MileHigh on October 06, 2013, 10:10:58 PM
TK:

The angular adjustment for the sensor coil looks great!

How can I tell it's operating in attraction mode from the scope shot?  In looking at the sensor coil waveform I can see the "zero cross" is the center of the steep negative slope between the positive and negative humps.  That's also top-dead-center for the rotor magnet fly-by.

In looking at the drive coil waveform I can see that the switching is ON BEFORE the "zero cross" and it switches OFF at the "zero cross."  Hence the motor is running in attraction mode.

If I saw the drive coil being switched ON at the moment of the "zero cross" and it then switched OFF a certain amount of time AFTER the "zero cross" then I would know the motor was running in repulsion mode.

You can also see the switching angle of course.  To be more precise, you can clearly see that your actual switching threshold is actually set below the "zero cross" of approximately six volts.  Your switching threshold is set to let's say rougly five volts.  i.e.; negative one volt relative to the "zero cross."  Again, this is impossible to do with a conventional Bedini motor.

MileHigh
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: MileHigh on October 06, 2013, 10:22:27 PM
A little extra comment:  Looking again at your last scope shot, you can clearly see that the rotor magnet responsible for the third "zero cross" waveform is stronger than the previous two magnets.
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: TinselKoala on October 06, 2013, 10:39:19 PM
TK:

The angular adjustment for the sensor coil looks great!

How can I tell it's operating in attraction mode from the scope shot?  In looking at the sensor coil waveform I can see the "zero cross" is the center of the steep negative slope between the positive and negative humps.  That's also top-dead-center for the rotor magnet fly-by.

In looking at the drive coil waveform I can see that the switching is ON BEFORE the "zero cross" and it switches OFF at the "zero cross."  Hence the motor is running in attraction mode.

If I saw the drive coil being switched ON at the moment of the "zero cross" and it then switched OFF a certain amount of time AFTER the "zero cross" then I would know the motor was running in repulsion mode.

You can also see the switching angle of course.  To be more precise, you can clearly see that your actual switching threshold is actually set below the "zero cross" of approximately six volts.  Your switching threshold is set to let's say rougly five volts.  i.e.; negative one volt relative to the "zero cross."  Again, this is impossible to do with a conventional Bedini motor.

MileHigh

Yes, you are right all the way, I think. Actually the switching voltage level is about 5 1/2 volts, the sense trace is at 1 V/div and AC coupled, the "baseline" or "zero" is the 6 volt level.
(Since the coil's "reference" voltage is half the opamp supply because of the 22k dividing resistors, no matter what the opamp supply is, the thing is stable and switches at the same point even if the supply voltage changes. I tested it and it's good from 8 1/2 volts to 15 volts supply.)

Thanks for the clear description of how to tell repulsion from attraction. It is all coming back to me now, these are things I explained back in 2011 during the Orbette core effect motor days, when I was showing the difference between the three basic types of PMs: attractive, repulsive, and core effect. (My Marinov slab works on a fourth principle, repultraction.) Hopefully I'll be able to demonstrate the scope trace differences you describe, a bit later today or this evening.

I want to thank you again for your ideas, your help and your advice. This certainly is turning out to be a neat project. The controlled starting and the LED strobe just tickle me silly whenever I look at it. Yep, it is Way More Fun than the Bedini SGM. But it does like long duty cycles for max RPM. I wonder if it's possible to reproduce any of the effects or claims of Bedini with this driver/motor configuration. Any ideas on that?

I'm also wondering about the optimum mosfet to use. I've got the IRFP360 in there now. I just received some IRF3205  but they are low voltage high current units. Looking at the data sheets and what I have on hand, I might have chosen the best one already, by accident.

Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: TinselKoala on October 06, 2013, 10:45:53 PM
A little extra comment:  Looking again at your last scope shot, you can clearly see that the rotor magnet responsible for the third "zero cross" waveform is stronger than the previous two magnets.
Yes, that's right, you'd be surprised at the rotor magnet arrangement. I don't want to take it apart right now, but glued to the inside of the rotor edge there are two round ceramic disks and two little ceramic flat bars, and then each has a tiny NdBFe button on top of it. So the rotor magnet fields are ... not all that well equalized, nor is the rotor very well mass-balanced. But it works anyhow!

Good catch on the scope traces. You can also see some little differences in the slopes of the individual magnets too. This is actually the reason for the four separate tape markings over the magnets: I was using a phototransistor to look at the reflective tape on one scope channel, and the Bedini pulses on the other channel. So I would see one, two, three, or four little pips and I could tell which magnet position was making which drive coil pulse.
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: Pirate88179 on October 06, 2013, 11:03:48 PM

 But it does like long duty cycles for max RPM. I wonder if it's possible to reproduce any of the effects or claims of Bedini with this driver/motor configuration. Any ideas on that?




TK:

Can you change the duty cycle on the fly on the op-amp while the rotor is running?  In other words, at max rpm can you then begin to shorten the duty cycle?  Sort of like the timing advance on the older cars of my youth.  My best Bedini set-up hit what I called second gear when the pots were all the way open, and then I began to add resistance again and it continued to accelerate ending up at 2 times the max rpm than if I just had the pots in that position from the start.

Just wondering.

Bill
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: TinselKoala on October 06, 2013, 11:34:45 PM

TK:

Can you change the duty cycle on the fly on the op-amp while the rotor is running?  In other words, at max rpm can you then begin to shorten the duty cycle?  Sort of like the timing advance on the older cars of my youth.  My best Bedini set-up hit what I called second gear when the pots were all the way open, and then I began to add resistance again and it continued to accelerate ending up at 2 times the max rpm than if I just had the pots in that position from the start.

Just wondering.

Bill
Yes, the current setup allows complete control of timing (by varying the position of the sense coil) and duty cycle (the setpoint control) while running "live". You can vary the timing so far you can even change magnets you are triggering on, and you can vary the duty cycle from 0 to 100 percent. It is fully controllable. The strobe will show the exact sweet spot, and the brightness of the neon does too, but is less precise.
The scope traces allow instant determination of RPM increasing or decreasing, by showing the frequency changing. More pulses = faster, and v.v.

Here's an annotated scopetrace with the Drain trace lowered and superimposed on the Sense coil trace. This clearly shows the switching points that MH pointed out above, and it shows a little hysteresis, which surprises me, but it's not too much. This is with the NE-2 from coil to Batt positive.

The Drain spike peaks are at a bit over 400 volts, off screen at the top. They would go even higher if I disconnected the neon.
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: MileHigh on October 06, 2013, 11:46:03 PM
TK:

Quote
I wonder if it's possible to reproduce any of the effects or claims of Bedini with this driver/motor configuration. Any ideas on that?

You probably know that I have never been impressed with any of the claims made about a Bedini motor.  I have often bitched and moaned that measuring source and charging battery voltages for before and after test runs is meaningless data.  What I have seen from eyeballing many Bedini motor clips on YouTube is that the power out into the charging battery compared to the power draw from the source battery is pretty miserable.  I am pretty sure that for a typical Bedini motor that only about 30% of the source battery power makes it to the charging battery, and of course 70% of the source battery power is lost in heat production in the drive coil and elsewhere.

Certainly the cleaner switching with the op-amp design should give you a slightly more efficiency in transferring power from the source battery to the charging battery.  However, "slightly more efficiency" might mean you go from 30% efficient to 32% efficient, not too much to get excited about.

If you assume that resistive losses in the drive coil are a big part of the problem, then you could investigate that.  You could start by measuring the drive coil resistance and then looking at the drive coil current waveform.  And then estimating how much power is lost inside the drive coil.  Just eyeballing 10 sampling points and crunching the numbers would be easy, and it's something that you have done many times before.

Supposing that you conclude that there is indeed too much power being dissipated in the drive coil itself.  Let's assume for the sake of argument that you actually want to do something about it.  One means to have "shallow current depth" when powering the drive coil might be that 555 and AND gate technique I mentioned before to modulate the energizing of the drive coil.  You will get more spikes going into the charging battery - but the motor will also slow down.

I am not getting a sense that you would want to do that, at least for the short to medium term.  How about something more basic, like to explore the power out vs. power in ratio for the motor as you play with the parameters that you already have at your disposal right now?

Of course you have a beautiful regulated power supply, or your battery stack, to act as the source battery.  All that you have to do is put a current meter in series with the supply voltage and you measure the power consumption of the motor.  All that you have to do for the real batteries is scope the battery voltage to make sure it is not dipping too much when powering the drive coil.

You could put a charging battery in place and then measure the average current into the charging battery with another multimeter in series.  You can even scope the charging battery voltage to make sure it itself is steady to ensure that your output power calculation is legit.

Many times I have mentioned emulating the charging battery with a very large capacitor with a rheostat + series resistor across the large cap.  You can emulate a charging battery like that and it could be a very useful tool for your kit whenever you want to make an average power measurement when the output is coming from a Bedini-type pulse power output section.  The output power is just the cap voltage squared over the resistance!

I am not sure if you meant some other type of Bedini testing, I just discussed power out vs. power in.

As far as MOSFETs go, I don't really see that as a critical component in this setup and just about any MOSFET should do.  I am assuming that in all cases the drain-source resistance will be much lower than the DC resistance of the drive coil so it doesn't really matter.

MileHigh
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: MileHigh on October 07, 2013, 12:01:39 AM
TK:

Quote
The Drain spike peaks are at a bit over 400 volts, off screen at the top. They would go even higher if I disconnected the neon.

That's really interesting.  Is it possible that the switching off is so fast that you get a very short high voltage spike before the neon has a chance to kick in?   Are you not concerned about damaging your MOSFET?

Indeed you are getting higher speed with greater than 45 degrees of conduction angle.  That's because there is another factor at play.  Some of you brainiacs out there may have answered the question for why 45 degrees of conduction angle is the theoretical max for getting max RPM out of the rotor.

The other factor at play is the L/R time constant of the drive coil.  For maximum push on the rotor you need maximum current through the drive coil.  Therefore, you may need to start energizing the coil before top-dead-center to "get some good push current going" before you get to the "push sweet spot" in the rotation of the rotor.  However, the 45 degree conduction angle factor is still there, but having the extra time to build up "good push current" is a more important factor.

MileHigh
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: TinselKoala on October 07, 2013, 01:10:39 AM
TK:

That's really interesting.  Is it possible that the switching off is so fast that you get a very short high voltage spike before the neon has a chance to kick in?   Are you not concerned about damaging your MOSFET?
Yes, I think that's right.
I'm concerned about a lot of things; blowing mosfets isn't usually one of them...   ;)    but in this case it's the only P360 I have on hand, and all mosfets aren't created equal, this one has a fairly low Rdss and a fairly high voltage rating.
Quote
Indeed you are getting higher speed with greater than 45 degrees of conduction angle.  That's because there is another factor at play.  Some of you brainiacs out there may have answered the question for why 45 degrees of conduction angle is the theoretical max for getting max RPM out of the rotor.

Just to be clear for the observers, you are calling "conduction angle" what I am calling "dwell", corresponding to Duty Cycle, and a 45 degree conduction angle corresponds to a dwell time or duty cycle of 50 percent of the total period. Indeed, this system appears to like around 65-70 percent On, which is more like 60 degrees of conduction angle.
Quote
The other factor at play is the L/R time constant of the drive coil.  For maximum push on the rotor you need maximum current through the drive coil.  Therefore, you may need to start energizing the coil before top-dead-center to "get some good push current going" before you get to the "push sweet spot" in the rotation of the rotor.  However, the 45 degree conduction angle factor is still there, but having the extra time to build up "good push current" is a more important factor.

MileHigh
I haven't run the numbers but we are operating at under 200 Hz... even the ringing that you see in the waveform after the spike is only 4 kHz about. So maybe the time constant is important, I dunno at this point.

There is yet another factor and that is the spacing of the rotor magnets. Note the trace from the sense coil: it's not sinusoidal, it has intervals between the sinus segments. This represents the space between the magnets on the rotor. Would it be better to have them closer (or stronger) so that the Sense signal was more perfectly sinusoidal, without the spaces, or would it be better to go the other way, with more flat spots between the sinus portions?
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: synchro1 on October 07, 2013, 01:52:15 AM

Quote from MileHigh:

"I am pretty sure that for a typical Bedini motor that only about 30% of the source battery power makes it to the charging battery, and of course 70% of the source battery power is lost in heat production in the drive coil and elsewhere."


I lit a 120 volt LED bulb to about 2/3 the brightness directly from my SSG Bedini output leads, measured by a LUX  meter. I then calculated the output in watts and compared that figure to the input as measured by an analog amp meter. The best recovery ratio I recorded was around half your 30% estimate at 17%. Measuring rise in charge battery voltage is extremely deceptive.  


Also, running that kind of low ripple AC current into a DC battery kills it. That's why Bedini is practicaly broke from consumer litigation.
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: MileHigh on October 07, 2013, 02:16:51 AM
TK:

Yes what I call "conduction angle" is what you are calling "dwell."  In my mind I change my frame of reference to the angle of the spinning rotor and the "conduction angle" is the angle the rotor turns through while the MOSFET is ON.   So let's say that TDC is zero degrees.  Therefore the conduction angle might be from zero degrees to 45 degrees which would translate into a 50% duty cycle.  Without scrutinizing your scope shot for maximum RPM it might be that your conduction angle subtends 60 degrees total, switching on at minus ten degrees and switching off at plus 50 degrees.

For the spacing of the rotor magnets and the size and waveform of the sense coil, there are indeed some issues to ponder.  Certainly there is no compelling reason to add rotor magnets and make the rotor more "crowded" with magnets.  Once the drive coil is half way between two rotor magnets you have reached a "point of no return" of sorts.  If you energize the drive coil past the "point of no return" the drive coil is working to slow down the rotor, not to speed it up.

For the sense coil, you noticed that your smaller relay sense coil gave you a flatter waveform between the double-humps.  However, the waveform is still not flat and it would appear that the comparator will sill give you a nice sharp transition even when the slope of the waveform is not really that steep at all.  In that sense it may be that the size and shape of the sense coil is not that critical.  If you had a larger sense coil then the double-humps would be wider overall, and therefore the "near flat areas" would be greatly reduced or eliminated.  That would in theory make "life easier" for the comparator.

Again, it seems that the comparator is functioning fine and there are no issues.  The net effect of the interaction between the comparator and the sense coil is a means for you to set the duty cycle, a.k.a. conduction angle.  Honestly I think I would prefer a larger sense coil to make life easier for the comparator and to improve the noise immunity of the overall circuit.  Then of course you can change the angle of the sense coil to offset the duty cycle.   The goal is to have full control over the duty cycle (a.k.a. conduction angle) and the starting angle for the duty cycle relative to TDC.  It appears that your hardware does that job perfectly fine right now so you are good to go.

One thing to keep in mind is the overall impedance of the sense coil.  Right now it looks like you have a 6-volt battery connected to an 11K resistor connected to the sense coil connected to the op-amp input.  So you can say that the "external noise immunity impedance" of the sense coil is 11 kohm.  If your resistor divider network was 500k + 500k then the "external noise immunity impedance" of the coil would be 250 kohm, which probably would be way too high and it would "waver in potential" due to external magnetic fields from things like 60 cycle mains power.  If you in your investigations think that you might want to anchor the sense coil to +6 volts more firmly, you might want to change the resistors to 5K + 5K as an example.  Then the "external noise immunity impedance" of the sense coil would drop to 2.5 kohm.  So the sense coil is more securely "anchored" to +6 volts and you pay a very small price in a few extra milliamperes of current consumption.

MileHigh
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: MileHigh on October 07, 2013, 02:34:18 AM
Synchro1:

Quote
I lit a 120 volt LED bulb to about 2/3 the brightness directly from my SSG Bedini output leads, measured by a LUX  meter. I then calculated the output in watts and compared that figure to the input as measured by an analog amp meter. The best recovery ratio I recorded was around half your 30% estimate at 17%. Measuring rise in charge battery voltage is extremely deceptive.

There is a "chicken and egg" issue for Bedini motors.  The average beginner joins the Yahoo Bedini group and uses his source battery to charge the charging battery.  He or she gets all excited when they see the resting voltage go up on the charging battery.  However, they are not aware that the Bedini motor was doing an absolutely miserable job of transferring input power from the source battery to the output power going to the charge battery.  The "radiant spikes" business is all just a psychological deflection scheme to divert your attention away from other things and keep it focused on the "magic spikes."

The "chicken and egg" issue is this:  You get all excited about charging target batteries using your source battery.  But who charges the source battery when it gets depleted?  It's probably usually a battery charger from the mains!  They even tell you to not use one of your recently charged batteries as the source battery.  Something about "you should not use a 'radiantly' charged battery as the source battery."  The real reason is that your "radiantly charged" battery will crap out pretty quickly in its new found role as a source battery - because it only got 30% or less of the energy transferred into it that was in the original source battery.

And the "magic spikes" are not "magic" - in the Yahoo Bedini groups they will not explain to you how a coil works.  Likewise, at the Bedini conferences they will not explain to you how a coil works.  A lot of the people on "Team Bedini" don't even know themselves.  It's just the way it is.

MileHigh
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: MileHigh on October 07, 2013, 03:08:10 AM
I am going to more or less close out the issue of the sense coil with one more example and leave people to ponder some issues.

Let's suppose in TK's rotor the diameter of each of the rotor magnets is one inch.   Let's suppose that we use a sense coil that is large and has the proportions of a large ring.   Suppose the sense coil is three inches inner diameter and 3 1/4 inches outer diameter and and about 1/4 inch deep with lots of turns.

If a sense coil like this is close to the rotor, you will lose that nice steep "zero cross" portion of the waveform at top-dead-center that we have seen in all of TK's screen captures.  There will be a large "dead zone" instead where the waveform is flat or nearly flat.  So you will lose or almost lose your top-dead-center reference, which would not be nice.

Now, with the same ring sense coil, if you moved it a few inches away from the rotor, chances are you would get much better results and you will see a waveform that gives you a very good indication of top-dead-center.

If somebody checked this in real life, my descriptions above might not correspond directly, but they will be close enough.  I am crunching this all in my head.

Anyway, I will leave it to the readers, if they are so inclined, to try to understand why the larger sense coil will act like this.

MileHigh
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: TinselKoala on October 07, 2013, 03:39:28 AM
I put a 10 pF cap from the op-amp sense coil input, to ground. It helped stabilize the thing, since it went all wonky after I rebuilt it mechanically, moving the drive coil over to where it belongs and mounting the circuit boards better. It suffered from the jitters after that, but now with the 10 pF cap all is stable again.


Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: Magluvin on October 07, 2013, 03:42:09 AM


Anyway, I will leave it to the readers, if they are so inclined, to try to understand why the larger sense coil will act like this.

MileHigh

Its simple enough to say. Having a 3in inner diameter coil leaves a lot of space where there is no windings for the 1in mags flux to cut and induce current. So you see a positive hump, dead zone, negative hump. Where a coil with a small inner dia, the transition from pos to neg humps is seamless.

But, thats only if the coil is close to the rotor/mag. ;) The further outward from the rotor, the less of a signal, but the dead zone will shrink with distance. ;) Not sure how much signal is needed to trigger here.

Mags
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: TinselKoala on October 07, 2013, 06:48:58 AM
It runs stably at 14 percent duty cycle, 1110 RPM (74 Hz) and the neon is still lighting, not brilliantly but nicely lit. This is as slow as I can get it at the moment. And the Max RPM sweet spot is about 2310 RPM, brilliant neon, and a duty cycle of about 77 percent. The timing varies a bit over the range, it needs to be adjusted for the min and max RPM zones. Easy to do with this setup and the scope!
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: MileHigh on October 07, 2013, 07:03:31 AM
Bill:

I wanted to comment on this but it got lost in the shuffle.

Quote
Didn't click the link yet but this sounds a lot like the Babbage engine?

Yes indeed, you are correct.  If I recall correctly Charles Babbage spent many years trying to perfect the "Analytical Engine" machine but the machining and parts and materials were just not available at the time.  So he had the correct system but he could not fully realize it in a working model.

So the ship's firing computer is a giant working Babbage machine.   Here is a simple typical example pulled from the film:  Imagine a 10-foot-long cylinder about three feet in diameter.  You can see that the "cylinder" actually has a sculpted odd-looking shape.  The cylinder rotates about it's axis and there is a cam on a plunger that rolls over the cylinder so that it can register the radius of the cylinder at any point on the cylinder (you will see it in the movie if you watch it.)

Now, supposing that the angle that you turn the cylinder on the shaft varies between 0 and 10.   Let's call that the variable A.  Supposing that the linear distance along the cylinder varies between 0 and 10.  Let's call that the variable B.

You make the shape of the cylinder so that any point on the cylinder has a radius of [Sqrt(A x B)]

So if you can imagine the cylinder rotating on it's axis, and a cam that moves along the length of the shaft that measures the radius of the shaft - then if you sculpt the cylinder properly you get the square root of the product of the two variables in real time.   I probably and not describing it that well but it's worth it to watch the movie if you are interested.

MileHigh
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: TinselKoala on October 07, 2013, 03:16:37 PM
Imagine this:

Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: TinselKoala on October 07, 2013, 04:25:51 PM
The present state of the schematic:

Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: MileHigh on October 07, 2013, 04:38:26 PM
TK:

Congratulations on an excellent job!  Having an updated schematic is very much appreciated also.

Magluvin:

I told you not to engage with me and I mean it.  And your answer is close but not quite right.  When the rotor magnet is moving across the center of the large sense coil there is no change in total magnetic flux through the loop with respect to time so the EMF generated by the coil will be zero.  In this case it's EMF and not current that is the relevant parameter, there is no current flow through the coil.

I sent you an email that you read this morning telling you to remove your quoting of me in reply #88 and you didn't do it.

DO NOT ENGAGE WITH ME ON THE FORUM.

I made an exception in this case and responded to you, but it likely will never happen again.

MileHigh
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: TinselKoala on October 07, 2013, 04:48:25 PM
Coil data:

Sense coil: Carefully removed from a television set SPST relay, 24VDC coil, coreless. DC resistance 273 ohms. Inductance 33 mH (by ProsKit meter, may not be accurate due to high resistance of coil.)

Drive coil: Bobbin made with center phenolic tube, 1/4" ID, 3/8" OD. Winding 1 5/8" long x 2" diameter, wound full with #27 enameled magnet wire. Center tube can accept 1/4 inch bolt or rod core, but has a plastic threaded rod mounting it in the photo above. DC resistance 62 ohms, inductance 145 mH.
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: TinselKoala on October 07, 2013, 08:05:10 PM
A request for more help:

The 4017/555 system fires a very short pulse to the blue LED just at the moment of coil turn-on. It would be _awesome_ to have another strobe LED -- say a red or green one -- that fires just when the coil turns _off_. 

This then would allow full control and visualization of the dwell angle, or conduction angle as MH refers to it, without needing a scope ever.

But I can't quite figure out how to get a pulse at the turnoff time. My brain is fried at this point, creative juice is low. So I'm asking for some help from the audience. How can I get a pulse at the turn-off time that I can use as a strobe signal?


I have a hunch that the LM339N quad comparator chip might be very useful in this application. 
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: conradelektro on October 07, 2013, 08:28:51 PM
A request for more help:

The 4017/555 system fires a very short pulse to the blue LED just at the moment of coil turn-on. It would be _awesome_ to have another strobe LED -- say a red or green one -- that fires just when the coil turns _off_. 

How can I get a pulse at the turn-off time that I can use as a strobe signal?


Just an idea:

You take a second "4017/555 system" (a copy of the one you have in place), but you put a NOT gate (4069 hex inverter, just one inverter) in front of it.

You connect the input to the NOT gate at the same point in the circuit where the first "4017/555 system" is connected (there is an arrow in the circuit with the text "TO 4017 PIN 14").

So, the first "4017/555 system" fires (or better said "clocks") whenever the coil (IRFP360) is switched on, and the second "4017/555 system" (with the NOT in front) fires (or better said "clocks") whenever the coil (IRFP360) is switched off.

Greetings, Conrad
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: TinselKoala on October 07, 2013, 10:18:47 PM
Hmmm...thanks, that would work I think. I'll see if I can rig it up. I have another 4017 chip, I think. And to save space a 556 dual timer could be used.

Can you think of a way to use the second op-amp in the TL082 instead of the NOT gate?
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: TinselKoala on October 07, 2013, 11:42:37 PM
Haven't figured it out yet?   8)

Simply use the second op-amp but with the inputs reversed. The JFET input stages can be paralleled with no problem at all.
The first comparator flips state to HI when the input rises above the setpoint and turns the coil on, and goes LO when the coil goes off. The second comparator behaves in reverse, it goes HI when the input falls below the setpoint and the coil goes off.

So all that's needed is three little wires to hook up the second comparator in the TL082, and another 4017/555 combo, which could use the second half of a 556 dual timer, probably. Or one can simply swap the input connection to the one 4017/555 over to the second comparator output, as I am doing at the moment.
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: MileHigh on October 08, 2013, 12:35:52 AM
Hey TK:

I am really tired today so all I can offer is a Google search that looks pretty good, "555 falling edge trigger."  You might find some good circuits that demand as input a brief negative going pulse.  That might no be too compatible with what the comparator output is doing in the sense that it stays low for a "long" time.  However, to get around that you just need to put a small cap between the comparator output and the 555 circuit that expects a brief negative going pulse to trigger the monostable.  So the cap will couple the falling edge to the 555 trigger input.

Also, you put a pull-up resistor on the 555 trigger input.  (You may also want to put a diode connected towards +12 volts to snub out any over-voltage on the 555 trigger input when the comparator output transitions from low to high.)

So when the comparator output goes from low to high, the capacitor has roughly +12 volts on both sides and it's not charged.

Then when the comparator output goes from high to low, the 555 input sees that high to low transition and that triggers the 555 monostable to flash the second LED.   Then while the comparator output stays low the pull-up resistor charges the cap and the 555 is "satisfied" because it sees a HIGH on the trigger input again - i.e.; the 555 trigger input (possibly) only wants to see a very brief negative pulse that is much shorter in duration than the monostable output that flashes the LED.

Typically it's a very tiny capacitor that will do the trick.  Perhaps a 0.1 uF cap.  Then you might want the falling edge trigger to be low only for a few hundreds of microseconds.  So you choose an appropriate pull-up resistor using the RC time constant.

It's a "quasi kluge" that should work just fine, and all you need to implement it is a negative edge triggered 555 monostable circuit.

MileHigh
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: TinselKoala on October 08, 2013, 12:36:15 AM
I had to take it apart to reglue a magnet, so here's the underside view of the rotor, showing the assortment of magnets. It's all I had available when I made the original Bedini SMG that I am recycling!
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: TinselKoala on October 08, 2013, 12:40:06 AM
Hey TK:

I am really tired today so all I can offer is a Google search that looks pretty good, "555 falling edge trigger."  You might find some good circuits that demand as input a brief negative going pulse.  That might no be too compatible with what the comparator output is doing in the sense that it stays low for a "long" time.  However, to get around that you just need to put a small cap between the comparator output and the 555 circuit that expects a brief negative going pulse to trigger the monostable.  So the cap will couple the falling edge to the 555 trigger input.

Also, you put a pull-up resistor on the 555 trigger input.  (You may also want to put a diode connected towards +12 volts to snub out any over-voltage on the 555 trigger input when the comparator output transitions from low to high.)

So when the comparator output goes from low to high, the capacitor has roughly +12 volts on both sides and it's not charged.

Then when the comparator output goes from high to low, the 555 input sees that high to low transition and that triggers the 555 monostable to flash the second LED.   Then while the comparator output stays low the pull-up resistor charges the cap and the 555 is "satisfied" because it sees a HIGH on the trigger input again - i.e.; the 555 trigger input (possibly) only wants to see a very brief negative pulse that is much shorter in duration than the monostable output that flashes the LED.

Typically it's a very tiny capacitor that will do the trick.  Perhaps a 0.1 uF cap.  Then you might want the falling edge trigger to be low only for a few hundreds of microseconds.  So you choose an appropriate pull-up resistor using the RC time constant.

It's a "quasi kluge" that should work just fine, and all you need to implement it is a negative edge triggered 555 monostable circuit.

MileHigh

That's not a quasi-kludge, it's a fullblown grownup kludge.

Did you miss my post above, Analog Op-Amp Man?
 ;D

The TL082 has two opamps in it and all that is needed is to reverse the inputs, put the reference voltage from the setpoint pot into the non-inverting input and the sense coil into the inverting input of the second opamp. It seems to work fine, so far.
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: TinselKoala on October 08, 2013, 01:50:33 AM
So here's yet another schematic, showing how to hook up the second op-amp in the TL082 to do the trick. I just use the same 4017/555 combo for now but will make another setup with a 556 and a second 4017. So the chip count will be 4, but most of that will be for the strobes.
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: synchro1 on October 08, 2013, 02:15:37 AM
@TK,


      This circuit looks like it may spring to life by lightning strike. Watch it now! Maybe your dog can help lick clean what's left of the peanut butter from inside the lid.
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: MileHigh on October 08, 2013, 02:22:51 AM
TK:

Ah! Ha!  I get it now.  It did not register with me that you get two op-amps for $0.71!  So there is your logic inverter and you can trigger another 555 and do your divide by four.  I assume that you are getting ready to wrap this one up soon but are you sure that you need two CD4017 chips?  You can't do it with just one counter? Don't mind me!

Notice your pulse control logic is is fixed at +12 volts but the power to the drive coil is like a free range chicken.  So you could play mad scientist and raise the potential on the drive coil to some really high voltages if you wanted to, and put on a Kevlar vest and some Gucci designer mad scientist goggles.  Just go insane!  (remember protection diodes)

I think you might need to route the coil energy into a battery or something if you go the insane route.

Another phenomenon that you might want to explore is this notion that sometimes the current flowing through the coil never stops flowing between energizing pulses.  Like man, it's constantly circulating.  In some pulse motor setups with a conventional diode discharge in to a charging battery the experimenter might not even be aware that this is happening at a high RPM.  That actually represents a danger.  You put your pulse motor on high speed, the phone rings and you go into another room and start chatting.  When you come back 20 minutes later your coil is a red hot blob about to eat its way through the table.

MileHigh
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: Magluvin on October 08, 2013, 03:04:42 AM
I had to take it apart to reglue a magnet, so here's the underside view of the rotor, showing the assortment of magnets. It's all I had available when I made the original Bedini SMG that I am recycling!

Hey T

What are the black parts with the silverish magnets in the lid? 

Mags
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: TinselKoala on October 08, 2013, 03:07:52 AM
@TK,


      This circuit looks like it may spring to life by lightning strike. Watch it now! Maybe your dog can help lick clean what's left of the peanut butter from inside the lid.

The white-out is getting so thick on the page I am afraid to try to close the notebook!
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: TinselKoala on October 08, 2013, 03:12:06 AM
Hey T

What are the black parts with the silverish magnets in the lid? 

Mags

There are four black ceramic magnets: two round ones and two "bars" polled on the long faces. Then I stuck a little NdBFe on top of each ceramic magnet.

This was the only way I could get the old Bedini SGM to work, with the magnets I had on hand when I built it. I do have another set of matching magnets now that I could put in there... and someone gave me a set of Steorn superstrong concentric ring magnets for bearings .... but the pivot bearing is already better than a ball bearing would be.... so work continues.
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: Magluvin on October 08, 2013, 03:31:29 AM
There are four black ceramic magnets: two round ones and two "bars" polled on the long faces. Then I stuck a little NdBFe on top of each ceramic magnet.

This was the only way I could get the old Bedini SGM to work, with the magnets I had on hand when I built it. I do have another set of matching magnets now that I could put in there... and someone gave me a set of Steorn superstrong concentric ring magnets for bearings .... but the pivot bearing is already better than a ball bearing would be.... so work continues.

Seems to work fine mismatched. ;) Just wondered.  All of this could be done much the same with an arduino. Have you thought about it?  on/off timing, timing adjustment, led strobing, etc. Im working on an arduino setup using a joystick for manual fine and course tuning. Makes adjustments on the fly while watching meters n scopes. The duino will beep high n low for course and fine digit changes so without looking I know it made the change. Fun stuff. ;D

Mags

Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: TinselKoala on October 08, 2013, 04:15:47 AM
Well, this is exciting! I've had my first component failure! Any guesses as to which one?

As I switched the "PTO Mode" switch the thing died. The motor stopped running, the coil was constantly energized, mosfet Drain signal at zero. Blown mosfet?

Nope... the 10 nF poly film cap between Drain and Source failed shorted. I used a Sprague 80 volt unit.... surprised it lasted this long. Replaced with a 400 V unit from an old TV chassis.... all is once again copacetic, motor runs great once again! Mosfet is fine.


@Mags:
Yep, I think the hot setup would be to use the Arduino to provide the reference voltage for the comparator driver! The rest of the Arduino could monitor stuff, and you could even put in a feedback loop to do the small changes in duty cycle and timing required for acceleration/load rather than just free running max RPM.

But seriously... this driver, including the power mosfet, has less than ten dollars worth of parts!
TL082,    0.71 (DigiKey)
4017,      0.52      ''
555,        0.43      ''
IRFP360, 3.79      ''
NE-2E      0.32 (Mouser)
10-turn trimpot 2.49 (Mouser)
some scavenged parts from old TVs (cap, relay coil)  free

Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: Magluvin on October 08, 2013, 04:32:18 AM


But seriously... this driver, including the power mosfet, has less than ten dollars worth of parts!
TL082,    0.71 (DigiKey)
4017,      0.52      ''
555,        0.43      ''
IRFP360, 3.79      ''
NE-2E      0.32 (Mouser)
10-turn trimpot 2.49 (Mouser)
some scavenged parts from old TVs (cap, relay coil)  free

Mini USB Nano   $6.98 free shipping.   Need to solder the headers.  For a few bucks more assembled. ;)   

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Mini-USB-Nano-V3-0-ATmega328-5V-Micro-controller-Board-Arduino-compatible-/181233866050?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2a32615542

Not that bad is it?

Mags
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: TinselKoala on October 08, 2013, 06:04:30 AM
Did you remember to add the cost of the computer you need to program the Nano? What about some kind of display?
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: Magluvin on October 08, 2013, 06:35:42 AM
Did you remember to add the cost of the computer you need to program the Nano? What about some kind of display?


Lol I dont think a computer is that big of an issue for most readers. ;) If they have a computer, then there is serial output to the monitor to see variable changes. Once the thing is programed to do what needs to be done, no pc needed. Then it is back to meters, scopes, etc. to show results once optimized.

Mags
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: Magluvin on October 08, 2013, 06:41:17 AM
By the way. Not asking you to build anything. Ill be showing some stuff with duino's soon. ;D

Mags
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: synchro1 on October 08, 2013, 05:10:03 PM
@Magluvin,


          Practically everyone one has at least two working computers and one in the garage. You need a computer to participate on this web site. Don't grow discouraged. I know why you're picking flack up, and I believe it's undeserved. Keep on truckin!












 
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: TinselKoala on October 08, 2013, 06:17:12 PM
Hey, I'm no stranger to Arduinos, you know!



Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: MileHigh on October 09, 2013, 01:26:32 AM
TK:

Need some new project ideas?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VlOxlSOr3_M
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: TinselKoala on October 09, 2013, 04:16:22 AM
Grrl need to lay off them triple spresso shots and stick to decaf lattes for a while.
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: MileHigh on October 09, 2013, 07:54:09 AM
TK:

I was racking my brain trying to think of what could be interesting and different to add to the mix as a deluxe bonus at the end of this endeavour.  So I finally came up with the following:

Let's look at some initial conditions:

If anybody is going to buy op-amps from DigiKey they are so cheap that chances are they are going to buy somewhere between 10 and 25 pieces.  Note the TL082 is a dual op-amp so that's a lot of op-amps.  Most experimenters probably have at least two or more cheapie digital multimeters.  Most pulse motor experimenters will probably have an optical tachometer.   Most experimenters will probably have a bunch of 9-volt batteries laying around.  Most pulse motors probably consume 10 watts or less of input power and output four watts or less into a charging battery.  An operational amplifier is a device that can perform mathematical operations on voltages like additions, subtractions and multiplications.

So, put that all into a blender and what do you get?  A word salad?  Nope, this is a magical "negative entropy" blender.

The goal would be to convert your cheapo multimeters into real-time watt meters using a few of the operational amplifiers at your disposal.  This is doable within certain constraints that are met by pulse motors.

So you can think of a scene like this:  As you tweak your MileHigh pulse motor playing with the pulse duty cycle (a.k.a. dwell angle or conduction angle) and adjusting the pulse start time (or you could call it the pulse start angle) relative to TDC with your moveable sense coil,  one multimeter is displaying the input power in watts in real time and another multimeter is displaying the output power in watts in real time.  So you monitor your live input and output power levels while you spot check your RPM with your optical tach while you tweak away.  I figure that might be exciting stuff for an avid pulse motor builder.

Note this will work with any kind of pulse motor, so it's a useable concept that can be applied to all sorts of other builds.

Anyway, I know you did a rebuild and you stated you will be doing some new clips and all that.  Then you may find yourself doing other things.  So perhaps this idea could be fleshed out when you are done.  You might be tempted to build it yourself or at least it can be discussed in enough detail so that a determined pulse motor builder could bootstrap him or herself and do the circuit to convert their cheapo multimeters into watt meters.

MileHigh
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: conradelektro on October 09, 2013, 08:31:17 AM

The goal would be to convert your cheapo multimeters into real-time watt meters using a few of the operational amplifiers at your disposal.  This is doable within certain constraints that are met by pulse motors.

So you can think of a scene like this:  As you tweak your MileHigh pulse motor playing with the pulse duty cycle (a.k.a. dwell angle or conduction angle) and adjusting the pulse start time (or you could call it the pulse start angle) relative to TDC with your moveable sense coil,  one multimeter is displaying the input power in watts in real time and another multimeter is displaying the output power in watts in real time.  So you monitor your live input and output power levels while you spot check your RPM with your optical tach while you tweak away.  I figure that might be exciting stuff for an avid pulse motor builder.

Note this will work with any kind of pulse motor, so it's a useable concept that can be applied to all sorts of other builds.

MileHigh

Measuring input power with operational amplifiers: the circuit has to be calibrated, which needs at least a good Voltmeter. The input power is fed as pulses, which are difficult to measure without a scope (integration of the Voltage curve over a shunt).

Measuring output of a pulse motor: this should be the mechanical output (torque) which needs some sort of Prony Brake http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/De_Prony_brake and good scales. To build good scales with operational amplifiers is a major task. The Prony brake looks easy but is mechanically tricky (the braking belt or braking clamp heats up fast).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torque_sensor would need a torque sensor.

How are the measurements displayed?

The reason why we see hardly any consistent measurements from pulse motor experimenters is the difficulty of good measurements.

Greetings, Conrad
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: MileHigh on October 09, 2013, 02:35:14 PM
Conrad:

Sorry, I didn't specify the setup.  When I say "output power" I am referring to capturing the coil current discharges into a charging battery.

The power measurement would be displayed on the digital multimeter.  You set your digital multimeter to measure DC volts but what you will see on the display is input or output watts.  It's just a little "trick" and tricks are fun.

For a pulse motor, I almost never think about the mechanical output power.  The torque is very weak and how often do we see people using the mechanical output power from a pulse motor?  The line from the Bedini enthusiasts that say "when you factor in the mechanical output power from the motor you get over unity" is nonsense.

To be sober and a realist for a second, most pulse motors are just built for the fun of building them.  They are super inefficient battery chargers and if you want to desulfate a battery with inductive current pulses you may as well do that all solid state - that will be way more efficient.

MileHigh
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: Lakes on October 09, 2013, 02:39:58 PM
TK:

Need some new project ideas?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VlOxlSOr3_M
Haha, very good setup, no wonder its 15 million views.
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: MileHigh on October 10, 2013, 02:32:11 AM
 8)
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: TinselKoala on October 10, 2013, 02:43:17 AM
I'm not going to answer your "mystery circuit" with the gain-controlling feedback loop....   ;)

But I am going to link this new video showing the start and stop strobe LED effects. I was too lazy to build the 556 dual pulse shortener so I just put in a DPDT switch instead, and you can see the two strobes sequentially instead of simultaneously.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6amIEYDDFOM
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: MileHigh on October 10, 2013, 02:59:41 AM
That clip was so awesome that I almost had a seizure!  lol  When you moved the sense coil and you could see the the strobe tracking of the sense coil movement, it was uber awesome.  We went from my head to your build and we skipped the napkin!  (You get full credit for starting/trailing strobes!)

über fantastisch!
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: MileHigh on October 10, 2013, 03:17:48 AM
Supposing that you decided that you wanted to have a voltage waveform averaging filter.... One way to do that is where you connect an AC voltage source to a resistor, and that connects to a capacitor that goes to ground.  The voltage that you would get at the junction of the resistor and the capacitor would be the average of the AC voltage waveform supplied by the voltage source if you provide enough filtering.

So, supposing that we want to use a resistor that is 1K ohm.  Supposing that we decide that if our filtering time constant is one second, then when the pulse motor is running at a normal speed then the averaging of some kind of mystery voltage waveform from the pulse motor will be excellent.

What we are really saying is that we want R x C = 1 second.

Therefore C = 1 / R.

Therefore C = 0.001 Farads.   That equals 1000 uF, which is a pretty standard electrolytic cap hat just about anybody should  have.  Likewise, just about anybody should have a 1K ohm resistor.

Connect the dots.....................
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: MileHigh on October 10, 2013, 04:10:04 AM
TK:

Now that you are in possession of the most flexible pulse motor I have have ever seen on YouTube, I will give you my thoughts on getting the highest RPM per input watt ratio.  In other words, not looking for highest RPM, instead looking for highest electrical efficiency to produce RPMs.  Standard disclaimer that I am not asking you to do this.

Permit me to discuss this in terms of a repulsion motor, but everything I will state applies equally to an attraction motor.

Also, we are going to "forget" about the energizing time constant of the drive coil and any possible influences on that energizing time constant by the passing rotor magnets.  This is just to make the discussion simpler.

So if you switch on the drive coil at top-dead-center it's useless to you.  You are not applying any torque to the rotor at TDC.

Likewise, if you switch on the drive coil at +45 degrees after TDC, that also useless for the same reason.  You are not applying any torque to the drive coil.

Somewhere in between there is a "torque sweet spot."

So, with your 10-turn potentiometer you can dial up any coil energizing pulse width (a.k.a conduction angle) you want.  Then, by changing the angular position of the sense coil, you can move that coil energizing pulse around and hunt for the "torque sweet spot" by checking your RPM.  You can also experiment with the width of the energizing pulse and hunt for the sweet spot and see how efficient you can make the pulse motor.

In theory, there is a "sweet energizing pulse with" and a "sweet angle past TDC" that lines up with the physical torque sweet spot that corresponds to how the energized coil and the rotor magnets interact.  i.e.; the good old repulsion between a magnet and an electromagnet.

Then, there is just a dumb brute force reality check.  Switch the coil on 100% of the time by changing the potentiometer setting.  Then take the rotor in your hand and hold the rest of the motor down with your other hand and simply feel for the angle with the most torque.  That will be were the sweet spot is.  In theory your "hunt" for the sweet spot by running the motor as described above, and the angle you feel with your brute force reality check, should correspond.

MileHigh
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: Pirate88179 on October 10, 2013, 05:36:34 AM
MH:

I agree but,  (always a but) does the frequency not have to increase also or, in TK's set-up, does that happen automatically like in a Bedini motor?  In other words, on mine, I have to change the vr's to get it to accelerate.  This can be done continually until it reaches the max rpm for that configuration.

Perhaps you can explain this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LfprTzG5SY4 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LfprTzG5SY4)

I never was able to figure out why this happened the way it did.  Some folks on Youtube offered their opinions which may, or may not have been correct.

This probably has nothing to do with TK's motor and for that, I am sorry.  (But it might)

Bill

PS  I had mounted the coil on a threaded rod assembly such that I could, with some precision, move the coil's position to the rotor.  I had already found the "sweet spot" in my earlier videos.
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: TinselKoala on October 10, 2013, 05:56:55 AM
Hey Bill, this whole discussion is kind of a "hijack" of the original thread on reed-switched magnet spinner, and I apologize for that. I would ask a moderator to transfer all this to a new thread but I don't have the foggiest idea how.

Maybe we should just start a new thread and carry on the MHOP discussion there.

Your little motor is really cooking! I don't have any idea why it is doing what it does with your resistance changing. What kinds of explanations did people give you?


MH, your AC voltage integrator is great... but will it work for a spiky, pulsed DC signal too? But I'm not sure if it is applicable here because any power taken off will be through a diode and put onto a big cap anyway, and there are losses in that process for sure.

And your explanation of the torque point is good, for the max RPM case under no load. I'm not sure if the same timing and dwell parameters will apply to the loaded rotor though, since it will stabilize at a slower speed.

I've made a new video showing the waveforms and how they change with setpoint setting; it's being processed and uploaded now, should be ready in an hour or so.

Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: Pirate88179 on October 10, 2013, 06:10:42 AM
TK:

Thanks for your understanding.

A fellow named Drevetoobe offered the following explanation:

 "I'll take a stab at an explanation. For starters the motor is exhibiting "metastability", there are multiple speeds where everything stabilizes. That's were the electrical power coming from the coil is in balance with the mechanical power being burned off in the spinning rotor.
When you start to increase the resistance, less power is being burned off in the pick-up coil. This means there is more power left over to go towards spinning the rotor and it speeds up.
Now that you are spinning faster, the main drive coil is on less time, and the inductor's natural resistance to change in current is giving you another opportunity to add more power. If you can provide more voltage for a longer time you can pump a bit more power through the coil. So you lower the resistance again and the coil is on for a slightly longer time and the speed creeps up. And so on. Every time the motor stabilizes it is running at a new metastability point. A reasonable guess."

I did this video back in 2009 and it makes me feel a lot better that you are not sure (right away) why this worked the way it did.  It has always bugged me.  Oh, input was 12v in case it was not mentioned in this video.  (I started with a 9v battery in the first videos)

Also, I think that if that fellow's explanation above were correct, then I could do this again (3rd gear) and again (4th gear) etc.  But 2nd gear was all I could get out of it.

Thanks again,

Bill

Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: Magluvin on October 10, 2013, 06:34:35 AM
MH:

I agree but,  (always a but) does the frequency not have to increase also or, in TK's set-up, does that happen automatically like in a Bedini motor?  In other words, on mine, I have to change the vr's to get it to accelerate.  This can be done continually until it reaches the max rpm for that configuration.

Perhaps you can explain this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LfprTzG5SY4 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LfprTzG5SY4)

I never was able to figure out why this happened the way it did.  Some folks on Youtube offered their opinions which may, or may not have been correct.

This probably has nothing to do with TK's motor and for that, I am sorry.  (But it might)

Bill

PS  I had mounted the coil on a threaded rod assembly such that I could, with some precision, move the coil's position to the rotor.  I had already found the "sweet spot" in my earlier videos.

Dang Bill. That thing screams.  :o ;)   I believe I can see the tape bulging outward from the centrifugal force of the magnets. ;D Gorilla tape is very tough. 2 layers around and I wouldnt worry much. Dab a bit of super glue at the edge of the last wrap to ensure that it wont flap out and slap the coil, ever.  ;)   Or fiberglass a ring around the outside of the rotor.  I dont usually point these things out, except for motors that move like yours. ;)

I had a speedup thing similar to yours, where my 2/12in reeds have resonance at certain freq. The rotor would build up and start to level off and then zing up higher, then level off again and then another step higher. So maybe your coil is doing something similar. Even if it is bifi and one coil is just for pickup, there could be capacitive effects at certain freq.  Do you have a scope?

Thanks for showing.  ;)

Mags
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: TinselKoala on October 10, 2013, 07:04:29 AM
I'm not sure Drevtoob's explanation is really an explanation, it's more like just a redescription of the phenomenon. Magluvin is at least trying to say why it happens, and with a reed switch all kinds of crazy things like mechanical resonances can come into play.

But I dunno. I suspect the transistor, somehow. I've found that all 2n3055s are definitely not created equal, especially these days with substandard dies from China.


Meanwhile, the new video will be up shortly at
http://youtu.be/qSjcP55msAg (http://youtu.be/qSjcP55msAg)

ETA: It's up now.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qSjcP55msAg
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: Pirate88179 on October 10, 2013, 07:05:54 AM
Mags:

Thanks.  Those magnets are first superglued, then epoxied around the edges and then like 5 turns of the vinyl tape over the top.  I screwed up on this Bedini design by placing all of the magnets with the south facing out instead of north.  I used Lidmotor's "transformer" bifilar Bedini coil which is basically using all of the mag wire in the top 2 of the 3 pack Radio Shack mag. wire pack.  The thinner wire, 28 ga. I think? is quite a bit longer and Lidmotor decided to use all of it so we have much more of the thinner wire as in a transformer.

Yes, I have a Tek 2013 but I am not very good with it and I am always afraid of hooking up to any of my device for fear of frying it somehow.  This motor as you saw in that video has fried 3 sets of vr's since I built it.  I tried to find heavier ones to no avail.  Sad to say, the 12 volt bats I bought for it have since died and no longer take a charge of any kind.  I recycled them.  This may be par for the course as MH says with these motors or, it could be because of my altered parameters, but I sure had fun building it.  It still sits on my coffee table.

This is nothing like what TK is doing except that I thought that possibly the altering of the resistance for increased rpm might play a part.  Glad to hear you saw something similar.

I estimated (by pitch) the rpm of this one to be about 12,000 rpm WAG.  (Wild Ass Guess)
My JohnnyDavro replications were much faster.  (Scary fast)

Bill
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: TinselKoala on October 10, 2013, 08:08:22 AM
Bill, is your scope a plain 2213, or a 2213a like mine? Outside they are the same, but inside, the 2213a has the attenuator/preamp system that corresponds to the 2215, and it turns out it's pretty easy to fix if it gets popped. I recently blew the input fet and PIN diode on one channel... the only hard part of the fix was locating a replacement diode. The NTE555A is the only PIN diode I could find, but while I waited for it I just used a regular small signal diode in there. The JFET I used was just a common MPF102,  and after following the calibration process in the 2215 service manual, all is good again.

ETA: Now I remember that the atten knobs have to be removed to get the attenuator board out, and the switch itself taken apart because the diode is underneath it. But it's easy, only needs one Allen wrench and a screwdriver and nothing goes flying out.
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: MileHigh on October 10, 2013, 02:29:18 PM
Bill:

Big speed, is your rotor based on the bearing for the spinning tape heads from a VCR?  For a small pulse motor that's probably one of the best ways to go.  You can probably get a VCR for $5 at the Sally Ann or a recycling center these days.

The real answer would be found out with your scope.  Perhaps it's related to the turn-on turn-off feedback mechanism in the drive coil pulse for a conventional Bedini motor.  Suppose at low speed there are 10 pulses per magnet pass and as the rotor speeds up that goes down to say three pulses.  But those three pulses are skinny, and as you play with your pots you "fatten" those pulses and as a result the rotor speeds up some more.  Something like that.

It's arguable that when you play with a pulse motor and just measure the average current consumption and the RPM those are the "symptoms" and the pulse motor is just a black box.  The "causes" are what's going on inside the black box, to be discovered with your scope.

I will repeat again, a pulse motor is just an exercise in how signals react in time.  It's pretty much the same for any electronic circuit, they are all based on timing.  How well is your transistor working?  Why is your transistor hot?  Why is your transistor blowing?  Why does one type of transistor work well and why does another type of transistor suck in the same circuit?  All of these questions are answered with your scope and analyzing what is happening with respect to time.   Perhaps dozens and dozens of times I have suggested to experimenters that they use their scope to investigate and construct a timing diagram on paper for their circuit and it never happens.  It's frustrating but that's just the way it is.

Think of all of Sterling's 39 (or whatever the count is now) alleged free energy motor-generator systems that supposedly "harness the wheel work of Nature."  There is no reason that you couldn't construct timing diagrams for each and every one of them.  If they were real, the proud inventor should be able to point to a pulse on the timing diagram and say, "This pulse is precisely where the over unity is manifesting itself."

MileHigh
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: MileHigh on October 10, 2013, 02:46:36 PM
TK:

On your new clip, you can see the limitations of your small relay-based sense coil.  The waveform is just too flat between magnet passes.  If I was in your shoes I would be tempted to try an alternative sense coil.  I would think of going to Radio Shack and buying one of those fist-sized spools of very light gauge speaker wire.  That should give you a much wider spread in the sense coil output waveform and get rid of the flat spots.  I am guessing you already have something comparable floating around.

Quote
MH, your AC voltage integrator is great... but will it work for a spiky, pulsed DC signal too? But I'm not sure if it is applicable here because any power taken off will be through a diode and put onto a big cap anyway, and there are losses in that process for sure.

The voltage averaging circuit that I described is just another piece of the "convert your cheapo multimeter into a watt meter" idea that I had.  It would do current sensing on the supply battery feed into the drive coil.  It would also do current sensing on the output from the drive coil into a charging battery, i.e.; back to a conventional Bedini-type setup.  There is not really any spiky-ness in those current waveforms and the bandwidth of the op-amp is 3 MHz.  So there should be no bandwidth issues.   Later on I will try to do a simplified schematic and description.

Quote
And your explanation of the torque point is good, for the max RPM case under no load. I'm not sure if the same timing and dwell parameters will apply to the loaded rotor though, since it will stabilize at a slower speed.

Not sure I get you here in the sense that the torque on the rotor as a function of the angle between the energized drive coil and a moving rotor magnet should be independent of load.

MileHigh
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: synchro1 on October 10, 2013, 03:53:34 PM
MH:

I agree but,  (always a but) does the frequency not have to increase also or, in TK's set-up, does that happen automatically like in a Bedini motor?  In other words, on mine, I have to change the vr's to get it to accelerate.  This can be done continually until it reaches the max rpm for that configuration.

Perhaps you can explain this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LfprTzG5SY4 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LfprTzG5SY4)

I never was able to figure out why this happened the way it did.  Some folks on Youtube offered their opinions which may, or may not have been correct.

This probably has nothing to do with TK's motor and for that, I am sorry.  (But it might)

Bill

PS  I had mounted the coil on a threaded rod assembly such that I could, with some precision, move the coil's position to the rotor.  I had already found the "sweet spot" in my earlier videos.


Acceleration coupled with increased resistance is relevant. I'm not asking anyone to rewatch any of my excorcist videos. My Bedini circuits behave the same way. What I demonstrated was that once the current tapering produces the maximum acceleration, a loop back to source circuit proves there is no longer any drain on the source battery.


You could try a trifilar wraped power coil to accomplish this. A bifilar, power and trigger coil for the bedini circuit and the third wrap for output. The output would need to pass through a rectifier, then connect directly back to the source battery. Once the reduced resistance produces the maximum acceleration, the loop back circuit creates a zinging effect because power can't run two ways in a wire silmultainiously. A push and pull results. Gadgetmall just wraps the third coil directly over the bifilar.
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: MileHigh on October 10, 2013, 07:01:26 PM
Synchro1:

Quote
What I demonstrated was that once the current tapering produces the maximum acceleration, a loop back to source circuit proves there is no longer any drain on the source battery.

One of the important lessons for anyone to learn when working on the bench is to question their own results when they seem strange or unusual.  That could mean double-checking what you just did or trying to make the same measurement in a completely different way as a means of confirming or denying your first measurement.  Also, some measurements are very difficult to do and it requires a lot of knowledge and skill.  How many clips have you seen where a digital multimeter display is jumping all over the place and the experimenter just decides to "pick" one as the measurement.  That's a huge mistake, and the right thing to do would be to ignore the crazy display jumping all over the place.

I can tell you with 100% certainty that there was still a drain on the source battery when your setup was running at high speed.  If you had a big capacitor in parallel with your battery when you thought you were measuring no current consumption, and then disconnected the battery and let the capacitor take over, then the voltage on the capacitor would drop which would prove that your setup was drawing current.

Quote
You could try a trifilar wraped power coil to accomplish this. A bifilar, power and trigger coil for the bedini circuit and the third wrap for output. The output would need to pass through a rectifier, then connect directly back to the source battery. Once the reduced resistance produces the maximum acceleration, the loop back circuit creates a zinging effect because power can't run two ways in a wire silmultainiously. A push and pull results. Gadgetmall just wraps the third coil directly over the bifilar.

One think to note about bifilar and trifilar setups around a core, and that is that they are all sharing the same available power.  So if you start drawing some power away with one coil, then there is less power available to the other coils.

MileHigh
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: synchro1 on October 10, 2013, 08:00:48 PM
Pirate's turning the power down and his rotor's speeding up. I got the same effect from my simple Reed switch version. I went on to report that after the current dropped to zero on the amp meter, the acceleration went hypersonic. I would really love to see your Op Amp circuit run a high speed VCR rotor like Pirate's to see if TK could repeat that effect with scope shots.
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: TinselKoala on October 10, 2013, 08:28:59 PM
@synchro:
Pirate is turning a variable resistor. This doesn't necessarily mean he is "turning the power down" when the rotor speeds up. But even if it does, it could only be something like desaturating the transistor and allowing it to switch better _instead of heating up so much_ on the same or less power input.

We hear a lot of impressive sound from Bill's closeup microphone, but I didn't see any instrumental readings of RPM or frequency of operation in that video. I also don't know the operating voltages that are being sent to the drive coil. A VCR head has good bearings and is well balanced, but installing glue, magnets and tape around the outside will destroy the balance and add aerodynamic drag. There is a lot of aero drag on my very poorly balanced Folger's Instant Coffee jar lid too, but the pivot bearing system is as good as a ball bearing system when it is properly set up. My rotor, which has a relatively low mass, takes a surprisingly long time to run down, unpowered, from its normal 2100 RPM speed: 94 seconds is typical, in fact.
I have no doubt that Bill's rotor is turning faster than the MHOP rotor is. I sure would like to see what his scope shows on that system. I refuse to tear apart my good old VCR, though, and I doubt if I can even find one at a junk store any more. I'll ask around though.

@MH:
I've tried an assortment of different sense coils, short and fat, wide and narrow, high and low impedance, even a loopstick with the core removed. For the coreless coils the relay coil I am using works the best! But for all the coils the width of the magnet passage sinusoid is pretty much the same. I think that it is the magnet spacing that determines the width of the flat spots more than the coil geometry, and I found this to be the case with core-effect  toroidal coils during the Steorn Orbo investigation as well. If I had the ability to make an 8-magnet rotor of the same diameter I think that the flat spots would be gone. Perhaps even a six-magnet rotor using the magnets I used would do it.
But it's really not an issue. Even though the slope of the triggering signal is very flat at what would be a 50 percent duty cycle "start" position, the op-amp is still able to discriminate and trigger stably there. Most of the fluctuation you see in the videos is probably caused not by the flat slope itself but rather because the level of the flat signal is jumping around a bit due to the different magnet strengths and out-of-balance rotor. Still, I can get a 50 percent duty cycle, just not with the very sharp transition as is possible with say 60-40.
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: MileHigh on October 11, 2013, 12:01:08 AM
TK:

Well, if you're happy then I'm happy!  It's amazing the sensitivity of the op-amp inputs.  I just like CONTROL and that setup does indeed give you control.

I just had an interesting idea for next year's Pulse Motor Build-off.  Everybody has to do it based on a VCR helical tape head spindle and the target is the least amount of input power for a given high RPM, say 10,000 RPM.  Or perhaps a hard drive spindle would be even better and they are more readily available.  I was going to say "maximum RPM" but I would hate to see anybody get a shard of metal flying right through their cheapo protective goggles and into their eye.  Also, you are disqualified if you don't purchase some kind of transparent tube of protective plastic to put over the pulse motor.  You could define some standard plastic tube spec that anybody could buy at a Big Box hardware store.  And you have to clearly demonstrate how you make your input power measurement.  You get bonus points if you don't rely on your digital multimeter to heavily.  Can you get creative and use some analog tricks to measure the power input?  Somehow work in a Wheatstone bridge?  Same thing if you have a power output measurement to do.

That might be pushing the envelope too much but you never know.  You can always completely change gears and have an egg dropping competition instead....

MileHigh
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: MileHigh on October 11, 2013, 03:35:21 AM
Well, I am going to try to finish off my "cheapo watt meter" design.  I am sorry to say in Windows 7 I don't think there is a built-in object oriented graphic program for dummies.  I went to the Cnet Downloads page, which used to be my favourite place for safe free software, but it's been corrupted as far as I am concerned and I don't want to struggle with them refusing toolbars at every step and the whole nine yards.  Way back in the 90s there was a great freebie object oriented image editing software program but I forget what it's called.

Okay, here goes.

Here is the project:  Let's assume that you have two fresh 12.6-volt batteries in series powering your pulse motor.  Let's assume that the average power consumption of the motor is seven watts.  So we want to have an op-amp configuration that computes the average of the current pulses coming out of the 25.2 battery voltage source and outputs that average current value as seven volts DC to your cheapo multimeter.  Makes sense?  So the multimeter display is showing seven volts DC which actually means seven watts of average output power.  So effectively you will be using op-amps to construct an analog computer to accomplish this task.

We will power the op-amps with +/- 9 volts using two 9-volt batteries.  That makes for a compact setup.  You could use 12-volt batteries for more headroom but they are large.  The op-amps have to have +9 volts and -9 volts, and you want to have a ground handy (junction of the two batteries) because you will need it.  I wall call that Gnd9V to avoid possible confusion.

Let's look at the logic behind the design.  If the pulse motor is consuming seven watts, and the voltage source is 25.2 volts, then the AVERAGE current flow (not the pulsed current flow) is (7/25.2) = 278 milliamperes.  So the op-amp analog computer just has to sense the current pulses, and then average them to a DC value, and with that average current computation output seven volts DC and that represents seven watts of power consumption by the pulse motor.  (In this design the averaging and the requirement to output seven volts will be combined into one step.)

The design is very basic and I am sure there are better ways to do it - but this should work.

IMPORTANT:  This design is so "dumb" that it will only work for a fixed source voltage.  Of course it can be adapted to work with different fixed voltages, but it's still pretty dumb.

Note also that it will work for measuring the power INPUT to the pulse motor by the source battery, AND it can just as easily work for the power OUTPUT by the pulse motor into the charging battery.
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: MileHigh on October 11, 2013, 04:22:06 AM
Okay, with great trepidation I will try to describe the circuit.  We are going to try using a 0.1 ohm current sense resistor.  But, everything could work just as easily with a one-ohm current sense resistor but certain other values would naturally have to change.

Here is the pipeline:

[pulsing output from source battery] -> [current sense resistor] -> [unity gain voltage follower] -> [inverting amplifier with variable amplification] -> [RC averaging filter] -> [multimeter on DC voltage with inverted probes]

[unity gain voltage follower]
The input for the unity gain voltage follower is on the battery side of the current sensing resistor.
The Gnd9V is connected to the other side of the current sensing resistor.
The only thing this section does is buffer the voltage waveform from the current sensing resistor without loading it.

[inverting amplifier with variable amplification]
The inverting amplifier is where we need to figure out how much amplification we need to generate the seven volts average output.  Let's assume that we have a 1 Kohm input resistor, and a 20 Kohm 10-turn trimpot as the feedback resistor.  So that means the gain for this amplifier can vary between zero and -20.
The inverting amplifier is amplifying the current sensing resistor waveform so that the average voltage of the pulse waveform is negative seven volts.

[RC averaging filter]
The input to the RC averaging filter comes from the output of the inverting amplifier.
The RC averaging filter consists of a 1 Kohm resistor that connects to a 1000 uF capacitor which connects to Gnd9V.
The output of the inverting amplifier connects to the 1 Kohm resistor.
This filter converts the amplified current sensing resistor waveform to a steady negative seven volts DC.

[multimeter on DC voltage with inverted probes]
The red probe of the digital multimeter connects to Gnd9V.  The black probe of the multimeter connects to the junction of the 1 Kohm resistor and the 1000 uF capacitor.
This is your wattage output display -> positive seven volts.

Okay, one more post to crunch some numbers to see if everything will work.
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: MileHigh on October 11, 2013, 04:38:49 AM
Number crunch time.   We are designing this analog computer based on a 25.2-volt voltage source, i.e.; two fresh 12-volt batteries in series.  We will crunch the numbers assuming a seven watt average power output by the batteries into the pulse motor.

The hypothetical average voltage across the 0.1 ohm resistor is 0.278 amps x 0.1 ohms = 0.0278 volts.

That means the op-amp gain to get 7 volts out is (7/.0278) = 252.

I don't like this, the sense voltage is too low for comfort and the amp gain is too high.  Let's change the 0.1 ohm current sensing resistor for a 1-ohm current sensing resistor.

Wih a 1-ohm current sensing resistor note the hypothetical average voltage across this resistor is 0.278 volts and the amplification that we need is now 25.2.   That makes a lot more sense.

So that means that the inverting amplifier can still have a 1 Kohm input resistor.  However, we will change the feedback resistor to a 30 Kohm 10-turn trimpot.   So now our amplification can vary between zero and 30, just what we need.

I am also having second thoughts about the 9-volt batteries.  I am concerned about any possible clipping of the amplified current sense waveform because of limited voltage headroom.  So I would check that on a scope and if there is clipping, then the power for the op-amp would have to be changed to +/- 12 volts.

So in summary:  1-ohm current sensing resistor, 1 Kohm input resistor, 30 Kohm 10-turn feedback variable resistor, 1 Kohm RC filter resistor, 1000 uF RC filter capacitor.

Note that in real life, some of this may need tweaking.  I am really concerned about the amplitude of the current pulses causing clipping at the output of the inverting amplifier.  You could lower the amplification of the inverting amplifier for example by half.  So that means that your desired negative seven volt output representing seven watts would be reduced to negative 3 1/2 volts.  By doing that you give the op-amp twice the headroom for doing the averaging function in concert with the RC filter connected to the op-amp output.  The down side is that you have to add a third op-amp as a 2X inverting amplifier to double the voltage output so that the multimeter reads seven volts again.
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: MileHigh on October 11, 2013, 04:52:10 AM
Now the fun part after you do all that work and all that number crunching.....  How hard or how easy is it to adjust this analog computer to make it do what you want it to do?

The good news is that it's pretty darn easy.   I am going to assume that you can set up a variable current source of some form or other, but even that isn't necessary.

Let's work with the assumption that six watts of average power is supplied by the 25.2-volt source battery for starters.

So the current that you have to put through the current sensing resistor is (6/25.2) = 238 milliamperes.

Therefore, you put your digital multimeter on current measurement and put that in series with the 1-ohm current sensing resistor.  Put some kind of variable voltage source across these two components (throw in a resistor in series with the voltage source if that makes it easier) and adjust the current so that the digital multimeter shows 238 miliamperes.  Then, adjust the 30 Kohm 10-turn trim pot so the output from the analog computer reads six volts.  That's it, the analog computer is now ready to make average power measurements of the pulsing current coming out of your pair of 12.6-volt batteries in series.

Another example...

Now let's work with the assumption that eight watts of average power is supplied by a single 12.6-volt source battery.

So the current that you have to put through the current sensing resistor is (8/12.6) = 635 milliamperes.

Therefore, you put your digital multimeter on current measurement and put that in series with the 1-ohm current sensing resistor.  Put some kind of variable voltage source across these two components (throw in a resistor in series with the voltage source if that makes it easier) and adjust the current so that the digital multimeter shows 635 miliamperes.  Then, adjust the 30 Kohm 10-turn trim pot so the output from the analog computer reads eight volts.  That's it, the analog computer is now ready to make average power measurements of the pulsing current coming out of a single 12.6-volt battery.

MileHigh
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: MileHigh on October 11, 2013, 06:08:15 AM
I have to do a new revision of the design because I am still really bugged by this headroom business, but I want it to still be a dual op-amp design so the whole thing can be done with a single TL082 chip.

For starters, we are going to blow off the unity gain voltage follower.  You don't really need it, it was just there for "show."

Here is the new pipeline:

[pulsing output from source battery] -> [current sense resistor] ->  [inverting amplifier with reduced variable amplification] -> [RC averaging filter] -> [inverting amplifier with fixed 4X amplification] -> [multimeter on DC voltage with non-inverted probes]

So, now you connect the inverting amplifier to the one-ohm current sensing resistor.  However, what we are going to do is lower the gain of the inverting amplifier by a factor of four.  That means if we were going to program the first stage of this analog computer (consisting of the single inverting amplifier and the RC filter connected to the amplifier output) to output negative eight volts representing eight watts, now we are going to program the analog computer to output negative two volts representing eight watts.

This gives the inverting operational amplifier four times the head room to deal with "taller" pulses being sensed by the current sensing resistor.

Now, we have a job for the spare op-amp that remains in the chip.  It's trivial, we just want it to amplify by a factor of four to bring the voltage output back to eight volts.  Note that there is a 1 Kohm resistor that is part of the RC filter.  We don't want this second op-amp to load down the RC filter too much.   Therefore we are going to increase the values of the input and feedback resistors.  Let's say that we use a 50 Kohm input resistor and a 200 Kohm feedback resistor.  The output from this second stage will be eight volts representing eight watts.

So, sorry to throw a monkey wrench into the works, but there you have it.   Revision two is a much better design and has four times the headroom for coping with the current sense pulses.  That also means that you may also get away with using 9-volt batteries again.
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: TinselKoala on October 11, 2013, 12:30:27 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pyuFehBV_uA
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: TinselKoala on October 11, 2013, 02:21:30 PM
The schematic currently in use:

Changes:
- eliminated the diode in series with sense coil
- added 2 ea. 22K resistors, one on either side of the Setpoint trimpot to spread out the setting range
- added Secret of DPDT to enable easy reversing coil polarity to run in repulsion mode
- changed mosfet to IRFP450
- changed recirculation diode to 1n4007

Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: MileHigh on October 11, 2013, 06:50:46 PM
TK:

Quote
- added 2 ea. 22K resistors, one on either side of the Setpoint trimpot to spread out the setting range

Astounding!  Visualize the voltage dropping like a multi-stage waterfall!

Quote
- added Secret of DPDT to enable easy reversing coil polarity to run in repulsion mode

Hmm.... Think about this one TK.  I looked at your latest clip and I was looking for the switch-on at TDC and I did not see it.

You changed the polarity of the drive coil so that it would push instead of pull when energized.  However, the sense coil is still turning on the drive coil BEFORE TDC (assuming a "zero offset" sense coil angle), when in fact you need to have the sense coil turn on the drive coil at TDC.

I think that you need to invert the sense coil logic also.  Notice that you don't necessarily have to contemplate wiring in yet another switch - just turn the sense coil around by 180 degrees in its mounting.  I am not sure if that will be easy or hard for you to do, I would have to scrutinize your clips again.

MileHigh
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: TinselKoala on October 11, 2013, 08:40:29 PM
Actually, if you think about it a little more, you will see that it is only the Timing control, the physical positioning of the sense coil, that actually relates to the moment of turn-on and turn-off wrt the TDC position.

Yes, reversing the sense coil also, does produce waveform phase relationships like you would like to see... but the timing must still be changed, although not as much, and here's the kicker: the picture from the strobes is the same, once you have found the "sweet spot" of timing and dwell. Here's the scopeshot of the motor running in repulsion mode, with the sense coil also reversed.

What changes is the position that the setpoint pot has to be turned to, in order to get the dwell angle right. The sense coil needs to be moved the width of the "off" time in order to get to the same timing position wrt the drive coil itself, depending on the polarity of the sense coil.

See the following photos. The first two are repulsion mode, sense coil reversed per your suggestion, motor running at best RPM. The scopeshot and the timing position are shown. The second pair, still in repulsion mode, ditto but with the sense coil in my normal polarity.

ETA: The images are "flashless", at a shutter speed of 1/4 or 1/8 second, so the strobes don't show up properly. You can see the strobe indications much better on the video camera; I'll try to show them later on this afternoon if I have a chance.
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: MileHigh on October 11, 2013, 09:38:46 PM
TK:

I stand corrected.  Indeed, the flexibility of the moveable sense coil makes the high vs. low "hump order" of the magnet pass moot.  DUH on me.  Plus you have a variable threshold.

Well, everything I stated in my very first posting came true and more!  lol

It's the Swiss Army Knife of pulse motors!!!

MileHigh
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: TinselKoala on October 11, 2013, 09:55:51 PM
TK:

I stand corrected.  Indeed, the flexibility of the moveable sense coil makes the high vs. low "hump order" of the magnet pass moot.  DUH on me.  Plus you have a variable threshold.

Well, everything I stated in my very first posting came true and more!  lol

It's the Swiss Army Knife of pulse motors!!!

MileHigh
Actually, there is a significant difference with swapping the sense coil, a "second order effect". With the motor running in repulsion mode and the sense coil in the "forward" polarity, the op-amp switches the drive coil OFF during a steeply sloped portion of the sense coil waveform and so you get a very clean transition from ON to OFF, which is conducive to spike voltage rise and neon firing. But with the sense coil reversed, the op-amp is turning the drive coil OFF during the flatter portion of the sense coil waveform (since the sense coil waveform is now inverted.) This makes the transition less definite and this shows up in noise and even "ainslie oscillations" when the Off interval is short.

I think the strobe logic has reversed, though: the Blue strobe seems to indicate the "ON" edge of the pulse when the motor is running in repulsion mode, since this logic is controlled by the setpoint not the physical position of the sense coil.

ETA: Maybe not, I'm not sure at the moment just what the strobes are indicating when the motor is running in repulsion mode. Need more coffee, think about it.
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: Pirate88179 on October 12, 2013, 02:05:46 AM

This makes the transition less definite and this shows up in noise and even "ainslie oscillations" when the Off interval is short.




Holy crap!  How long will it be before Rose claims credit for this device?  There may be a paper in the works as we speak.

Bill

PS  Great work TK and I really enjoy seeing the blending of MH's original idea and your building skills and modifications.
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: TinselKoala on October 12, 2013, 04:35:39 AM

Holy crap!  How long will it be before Rose claims credit for this device?  There may be a paper in the works as we speak.

Bill

PS  Great work TK and I really enjoy seeing the blending of MH's original idea and your building skills and modifications.

Heh... prolly just needs a few more bypass caps sprinkled along in there, maybe a few inches of coax... that'll take care of the aperiodic resonant parasitic Hartley feedback oscillations, or whatever they are this week.

Speaking of which, the end of September came and went without any more of the promised "proof" from Ainslie and her crack team of boffins. As we all knew it would.


Meanwhile, I have my team of minions and urchins out scouring the back alleys looking for a discarded VCR that I can scavenge....
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: Pirate88179 on October 12, 2013, 04:42:22 AM
TK:

If you need a vcr hub, I can ship you one.  (free)  (as in, no cost)  A buddy gave me 5 of them and I cleaned out my lab a while back and got rid of most of them but, I can find one for you if you would like.  Very good bearings and a stable platform.  I have used hard drives also but, the vcr head is more heavy duty, so to speak.  Very easy to take out the internal wiring and put back together.

Bill
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: DreamThinkBuild on October 12, 2013, 04:57:11 AM
Hi TinselKoala,

Very good build and interesting seeing the build progression. I learned a lot from watching your videos, thanks.

Hi MileHigh,

Nice work on the detector circuit design. Knowing where the magnet is, is half the battle.

There is a structured open source diagram program called Dia which might be useful.

http://dia-installer.de/index.html.en

If you click on the shapes tab on top there are libraries for electronic components. It also works on Ubuntu Linux if your trying to migrate away from Windozs 8 nightmare.

Another open source program is QCad (2D vector drawing with blocks).
http://www.qcad.org/en/
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: MileHigh on October 12, 2013, 07:20:54 AM
Tyson:

Thanks a lot and I am well on the way with the Dia program and will have the schematic posted tomorrow.  The program is quite intuitive and I just plunged into it and started making progress right away.  It's not going to be a perfectly clean schematic but it will be perfectly readable.  A simple and good object-based drawing program with various symbol libraries is indispensable.  The fact that it's free is fantastic.

MileHigh
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: TinselKoala on October 12, 2013, 01:28:31 PM
I've got an older version of Dia on my Ubuntu 11.10 system. It works fine but it doesn't have the complete, newer, electronic symbols. The mosfet symbols in the install I've got don't look like what I'm used to, they are some Euro standard I guess. I feel better sketching by hand, and I really get to understand the circuit when I sketch it out, make my errors, white-out stuff, etc.  I know it looks sloppy compared to a CAD diagram, but I don't need a computer to do it and it's there in my notebook whenever I need to see or alter it.

But here is a thing:

I would like to ask if someone can make a printed circuit template from the whole circuit.

I'd like to see a _single sided_ PCB template that could be sketched or transferred to the copper easily, at home, by anyone, either iron-on, from rubon transfer templates, or simply by hand. The board must have the TL082 (8-pin dip) for the basic control, and then for the strobes it needs 2 ea. 4017 chips (16 pin dip) and one 556 chip (14 pin dip), in a neat tight layout of course. A line of header pins for plug-on connection to the sense coil and the pot and switches and mosfet gate and source and the 12-volt power. If anyone is interested in taking on this project please let me know and I'll give you a definitive complete schematic sketch to transfer to your PCB CAD program.
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: MileHigh on October 12, 2013, 03:21:10 PM
Here we go, the actual circuit!!!  - Thanks Tyson!
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: MileHigh on October 12, 2013, 03:45:09 PM
I will do one more simple example to explain how to tweak the analog computer to work with a given supply voltage.

You need two multimeters to do the tweaking.  You need one to measure the DC current that you are going to manually put through the current sensing resistor and another to measure the DC output voltage.

Let's suppose that we are going to measure the power input of the pulse motor and the motor will be powered by a 12.6-volt battery.   We are going to assume that the battery voltage will be constant when it powers the motor.  Not that this circuit assumes a constant supply voltage so the power measurement would be less accurate if the battery is weak and dips in voltage as it powers the pulse motor.

Let's assume that you put 500 milliamperes of DC current through the multimeter and the current sensing resistor of the analog computer.  So the multimeter is in series with the current sensing resistor.  You can set the current to 500 milliamperes any way you want.  It doesn't even have to be 500 milliamperes, it can be close to 500 milliamperes.

So, if you have a 12.6-volt battery outputting 500 milliamperes of DC current that represents (12.6 x 0.5) = 6.3 watts.

Connect the second multimeter to the the output of the analog computer and set it on DC volts.

Adjust the 10-tun trimpot until you see 6.3 volts on the second multimeter.

That's it, the analog computer has now been calibrated to measure the power input of your pulse motor when it is powered by a 12.6-volt battery.

MileHigh
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: TinselKoala on October 12, 2013, 08:16:47 PM
Stable running at 1285 RPM, total input power around 1.3 Watts using inline DMM for current. This is for comparison with what we get using the MH comparator-computerator once I get it built.
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: MileHigh on October 13, 2013, 01:49:55 AM
TK:

I'm flattered that you want to build the analog computer for computing power draw in real time.  Good luck and no rush, do things at your own pace.

That was so cool in your clip where you see the rotor rocking back and forth with increasing amplitude until it breaks through and takes off.  I don't think I have ever seen anything like that before.  You get the sense of "active power" wanting to be unleashed.  It makes me think of all of those clips of alleged over unity motor generators.  A month or so ago there was one that was supposed to have a COP of 18 or something like that.  I posted that when you play with an alleged over unity machine like that you should get a sense that the bloody thing is almost _alive_ and itching to jump into a positive feedback loop and keep increasing in speed.  Even in a clip you should be able to sense that and of course there is no sense of that happening at all.  Your little "active rotor" being triggered by the op-amp gives you a small version of that feeling - but of course there is a non-hidden power source...

MileHigh
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: MileHigh on October 13, 2013, 02:10:38 AM
I assume that a lot of pulse motor builders are watching this thread and are learning as we go along.  So much the better and I hope that some people are being inspired.

I wanted to discuss how to get more speed in somewhat abstract terms.  To get speed you need a low friction rotor and good timing with full control, and power.  The low friction rotor is a mechanical issue that each builder deals with on their own terms within their own budget and available materials, etc.  Good timing with full control has been taken care of with the MileHigh op-amp circuit.

So what about power?  Let's assume that we have a typical 12-volt battery source and a standard drive coil with a core.  What can we do to get stronger magnetic field pulses produced by the coil?  Let's assume that the physical size of the coil remains about the same.  In other words we need to think of some way to push more power through the coil to create stronger magnetic field pulses without changing the physical dimensions of the coil.

Note also that the average pulse motor builder does not know if they have saturated the core in their drive coil.  It's an issue that's never even discussed as far as I am aware.  That is something that ultimately may come into play and there are ways of checking for that but we are just going to put that issue aside for the moment.  Let's just focus on this issue of getting more bang out of the coil for a faster spinning rotor.

Notice again, that this is almost uncharted territory.  Builders make a drive coil with or without a core (I believe most use a core) and then it's more or less a given - they work within it's constraints and worry about other things.

Okay, that was the setup, so let me start a fresh posting to look at this issue - How can you supercharge your drive coil?

MileHigh
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: MileHigh on October 13, 2013, 02:41:44 AM
How can you supercharge your drive coil?

I thought about this for 15 minutes and I have an idea.  We are just going to use a quasi-abstract example to make it simple and understandable for most people.

For starters, we know the core is there, but we are not going to discuss it.  We can safely put it aside for now and the discussion will be perfectly valid.

Here is you quasi-abstract drive coil configuration:  It has 100 turns, and one ampere of current flows through it when you connect it to your 12-volt battery.  Forget about details like calculating the wire resistance, we don't need that data.  We are going to also use an abstraction for the energizing time constant and say that it takes one unit of time.

So we can say that when this coil is energized, after five time constants, there is one ampere flowing through the coil.  Therefore, the strength of the magnetic field generated by the coil is 100 ampere-turns.

What can we do to improve this?

Let's split the coil into two separate 50-turn coils.  Two 50-turn coils will fit on exactly the same spool as a 100-turn coil.

So let's look at each 50-turn coil.

We know that the energizing time constant for the 100-turn coil is L/R.   We know that L is proportional to the square of the number of turns.  Therefore the L becomes (L/4) for the 50-turn coil.   The R becomes (R/2) for the 50-turn coil.  So the time constant for the 50-turn coil is ((L/4)/(R/2)) = L/2R.

So, we know that for the 50-turn coil, the energizing time constant is one-half the time constant of the 100-turn coil.  That means that the current rise in the 50-turn coil is faster, and a faster current rise time means faster appearance of the magnetic field.  This will become more important as the rotor speed increases.

We know that the maximum current in the 50-turn coil is two amps, simply because the resistance of the wire is one-half the resistance of the 100-turn coil.

So how many ampere-turns of magnetic field generation do we get with the 50-turn coil?  It's 50 turns x two amperes = 100 ampere turns.  Holy crap, that's the same amount of magnetic field generation as the 100-turn coil!

Surprising isn't it?  A 50-turn coil gives you the same amount of magnetic field production as a 100-turn coil and it does it faster!

MileHigh
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: MileHigh on October 13, 2013, 03:12:36 AM
So now that we know that a 50-turn drive coil for your pulse motor is just as good if not better than a 100-turn drive coil, how do we take advantage of that?

I am assuming this part is something that will come naturally to most builders, it's very easy, especially if you are using the op-amp timing circuit.

So you take your 100-turn drive coil and you split it into two 50-turn coils.  You use TWO MOSFETS, and there is nothing stopping you at all from using TWO separate batteries sharing a common ground if you are worried about the increased load on a single battery.  Or perhaps you have a big beefy bench power supply and supplying the increased current is not an issue.  (Note you don't necessarily need to use two MOSFETs either.  This is where you start looking at spec sheets.  It all depends on how much total current you are dealing with. In the real world you rarely see "over design" because that increases costs.  However, having separate MOSFETs is "sexier" and more fun!)

There is a very decent chance that the active pull-up and pull down of the op-amp output will be able to drive the two gate capacitances of the two MOSFETs.  This is where you check with your scope.  If yo have to, nothing is stopping you from adding a MOSFET driver chip if you want.  My feeling is you won't need one but I am not sure.  I looked at the schematic for the TL082 and I think it's output impedance for sourcing or sinking current is 50 ohms.

So there is your supercharged drive coil:  You double the magnetic field strength of the drive coil if you split the coil into two halves and you decrease the energizing time constant by one half.  Nothing is stopping you from splitting it into three or even four if you want to.

Of course it goes without saying that when you do this you pay a price for this:  You double the current consumption and you double the power consumption of the drive coil also.

Finally, you have a "real" bifilar or trifilar or quadfilar application for a coil that really does something - it supercharges your drive coil.  It might require more batteries and more MOSFETs, but that should be cool and a fun thing to build.

A coil like this might be so powerful that it will saturate your core.  That has the potential to create "current runaway" so you should monitor your drive coil to make sure it does not get too hot.

You want to dump the current pulses into a charging battery?  No problem at all, just give each coil its own separate diode and it will work perfectly.

You can wind a bifilar yourself, or just buy a spool of speaker wire.  Or, you can fill up the front half of the spool with one integral coil and the back half of the spool with another integral coil - it won't make a damn difference in the world - the only thing that counts is ampere-turns.

MileHigh
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: TinselKoala on October 13, 2013, 04:57:32 AM
I'm pretty sure I'm not saturating my cores. How much field strength do you need to saturate a nylon bolt?


Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: MileHigh on October 13, 2013, 11:34:02 AM
TK and All:

I suppose it's a generational thing for nerds.  In the late 70s and 80s (for my experience) many people will remember all of the deep navy blue National Semiconductor data books.  In their op-amp data book there was this huge section with application notes for op-amps showing many amazing and useful op-amp circuits.  Some readers may still be wondering what the hell op-amps are and what they are really useful for.

So I did the Google search and wouldn't you know it, the search was "built in" to Google because so many people must have searched for the long-lost op-amp application notes that young nerds used to lust after.

The built-in Google search is, "national semiconductor op amp application notes."

Good link that came up right away:  http://www.ti.com/ww/en/bobpease/assets/AN-31.pdf‎

The actual doc is attached below because it is so good.  For newbies, take a look at the op-amp circuits, it will blow your collective minds.  Also, you will see in most if not all of the op-amp circuits they call out for a specific model of op-amp.  You have to take that with a grain of salt, that's mostly National Semiconductor trying to sell their own op-amps.  For the majority of the circuits, just about any op-amp will do.  By the same token, not all op-amps are created equal.

What should be readily apparent is that if you want to take the plunge and buy 10 or 20 op-amps from DigiKey, is that they can do amazing things.  They can do amazing things with respect to mathematical operations using voltages as variables and they can do all sorts of signal processing applications like high-pass and low-pass filters, etc.

Think of an audio mixer.  An audio mixer is simply a circuit that adds voltage signals together.  You can do that with your eyes closed with an op-amp.  Many people talk about things like "putting two frequencies into a coil at the same time" as a hypothetical example.  You can use an op-amp as part of a circuit to do that.

MileHigh
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: TinselKoala on October 13, 2013, 04:19:00 PM
Yes, that's a great classic text all right, thanks for finding it. I found the Sams classic "Op Amp Cookbook" by Walter Jung in the used bookstore a few weeks ago and of course I scraped together my lunch money to buy it.

All op amps are not created equal. Many really do need the bipolar power supply to do their best work (like your analog power computer). Many can be used in single-supply mode as we have been doing. Some are more better for audio work, some are best for comparator applications, some are general purpose, some require dealing with more input and output options rather than just the two ins and one out of the opamps in the TL082 chip. Apparently I once again "aced" accidentally by choosing the TL082 for this application because of the very high impedance JFET input stage and the fast slew rate, and the fact that it works well on the single supply mode. And ease of use, low cost, and easy availability.

Here's something I found just a couple days ago, which made me very excited. This is another "classic" from a bygone era. The chips it talks about are still available, and many of them exist now in advanced versions that use very low power and are very sensitive. There are many many useful circuits and concepts covered in the TTL Cookbook.

ftp://apollo.ssl.berkeley.edu/pub/cinema/04.%20Science/TTL%20Cookbook_0672210355.pdf

It's a 12 MB pdf, an excellent scan, all 340 pages, clear diagrams and even the photos aren't too completely black.

ETA: I just checked EBay for sellers of TL082CN .... if you are willing to wait two weeks for a shipment from Thailand, you can get 10 for $2.79, free shipping. Or.... 50 for $9.99 from the same seller in Bangkok.
Twenty cents apiece! Delivered to your door! How can this even be possible at all?
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: MileHigh on October 13, 2013, 04:59:43 PM
TK:

Thanks for the link to Dan Lancaster's TTL Cookbook.  Somewhere in the past we probably also discussed his famous CMOS Cookbook.  TTL chips are probably still available, even in archaic DIP packages.  There is probably so much military hardware that is still in use that makes use of MIL-grade TTL logic chips in DIP packages that they still keep a semi operation somewhere that can manufacture them.  Honestly, I am just speculating.  There could be a government "strategic reserve" of them somewhere too and they are no longer being manufactured.  Even through they are no longer being manufactured, they may be available commercially for many years on the secondary brokerage market.  There could be many many millions sitting in inventory on shelves all over the world.

If you remember looking at the first IBM PC-XT and AT motherboards, they were big grids of TTL (or NMOS?) chips.  Same thing for the Apple II.  In modern hardware design engineering, that technology has been long gone.

Quote
Twenty cents apiece! Delivered to your door! How can this even be possible at all?

I don't know!  I know that you can get stuff manufactured in Shenzhen in mass quantities at low low prices, but I don't know much at all about the Asian semiconductor manufacturing industry.  I do know that most of the semiconductor fabrication plants are in Asia, and many in the US have closed down.  One more time, that could one day have geopolitical strategic importance and become a major issue.

Playing with spinny things is less stressful and more fun.  lol

MileHigh
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: MileHigh on October 13, 2013, 08:45:27 PM
I caught a mistake I made for the supercharged coil power analysis.   Note this is all about the resistive power losses in the coil, this is not about the power exported to the outside world by the stronger and faster-rising magnetic field pushing on the rotor.  I didn't even mention that which was another mistake.  That "export" power manifests itself as a (voltage drop inside the coil x the current flowing through the coil) and does not heat the coil.  You can't directly measure this "voltage drop due to power exported to the outside world," but you know it is there.

This may be counter-intuitive to some people but look at it like this:  You know the only form of power input to the coil is (voltage x current.)  You know the coil is exporting power to the outside world because because the rotor is turning.  That means that the export of power to the outside world has to "eat" a slice of the (voltage x current) input power.  This simply has to happen, and exactly the same process happens with a conventional electric motor.  The power to make the rotor spin is not coming from "nowhere."

So, back to the resistive power analysis that does indeed heat the coil.

Quote
So there is your supercharged drive coil:  You double the magnetic field strength of the drive coil if you split the coil into two halves and you decrease the energizing time constant by one half.  Nothing is stopping you from splitting it into three or even four if you want to.

Of course it goes without saying that when you do this you pay a price for this:  You double the current consumption and you double the power consumption of the drive coil also.

The resistive power dissipated in the original 100-turn coil:

We have one ampere and one unit of resistance so the power dissipated is = (one-squared x R) = R

The resistive power dissipated in the 50-turn coil:

We have two amperes and one-half unit of resistance so the power dissipated is = (two-squared x R/2) = 2R

We have two 50-turn coils so the total resistive power dissipated is 4R.

Conclusion:  When we split a 100-turn drive coil into two 50-turn drive coils the resistive power losses go up by a factor of four.

So let me finish this off by taking another look at the pure resistive losses in the coil vs. the power exported to the outside world to make the rotor spin.

Here is a thought experiment:

Setup #1:

Suppose that you have your 100-turn coil in your pulse motor and the rotor is locked so it can't turn.  You pulse the rotor and your sophisticated measurements tell you that the average power supplied to the drive coil is 10 watts.   In this case all of the 10 watts supplied to the drive coil will be converted into heat power that heats up the coil.

Setup #2:

Suppose that you have your 100-turn coil in your pulse motor and this time the rotor is free to spin.  You pulse the rotor and your sophisticated measurements tell you that the average power supplied to the drive coil is 10 watts.   In this case less than the full 10 watts of power supplied to the drive coil will be converted into heat power that heats up the coil.

It simply has to be due to the conservation of energy.  You could easily confirm this by monitoring the temperature rise of the coil over time.  And with some fancy footwork with your scope and provided that you knew what you were doing you could "see" this also.

The key issue here is to be able to visualize the flow of power.  If the drive coil is making the rotor spin then power is "flowing" out of the drive coil into the outside world.  If you really want to analyze what your pulse motor is truly doing then you have to be conscious of this.

That begs the question:  How much power is being dissipated in the rotor when it spins?  The assumption being that that power is coming from the drive coil, there is no other place!  That implies that you do a measurement of the moment of inertia of your rotor and then do some spin-down measurements.  That way you will know the rotor power dissipation as a function of RPM.  That's interesting information that may come in handy.  If you make very precise measurements, you should be able to see a non-linear curve which would tend to indicate the effects of air friction.

MileHigh
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: MileHigh on October 13, 2013, 09:36:06 PM
I can't resist because my previous posting suggested a neat experiment that is doable.

Supposing that you build the op-amp based analog computer to measure the average pulse power going to your pulse motor.  It's absolute accuracy might be +/-5% for the sake of argument.  However, it's _relative_ accuracy will be deadly accurate.

So here is the experiment:

You wrap your drive coil in a layer or two of thermal insulation with an impervious outer layer with something like saran wrap.  You have to do this because you assume that the spinning rotor is going to create air currents and you want to mitigate the effects of the air currents on your temperature measurements on your drive coil.  Also, when the drive coil is wrapped up like that you trap the heat production and it will be easier to detect any differences in thermal effects.

So with your infrared temperature measurement gun you make three measurements in three spots on the drive coil then you wrap it back up.  You lock the rotor on your pulse motor very firmly so that it cannot move at all.  Then you pulse the drive coil with a 555 timer circuit as the timing reference and you make spot checks on the drive coil temperature every half hour or hour, to be determined by the experimenter.  The 555 timer circuit is set up to create pulse timing that is a very close approximation of the actual timing of the running motor.  You briefly peel back the insulating layer to make your temperature measurements.  The whole time you are doing this you are monitoring the live power consumption of the drive coil with your analog computer circuit.   Let's say for the sake of argument the power consumption is 1.5 watts.  Let's say after five hours you are satisfied with the temperature data that you have recorded.

Then, you remove the insulation, and you wait until the next day.  It's really really important that you wait a full day for the coil to cool down.  In theory, the coil "never" cools down all the way, so you play it safe and wait a full day.

The next day you repeat the experiment but this time with the rotor spinning.  With your MileHigh pulse motor timing circuit and your real-time average power monitoring with the analog computer you can quickly and easily set the average power consumption of the running motor to 1.5 watts.

What you should see is that the rate of temperature increase of the drive coil when the rotor is spinning is slower as compared to when the rotor is fixed.  This proves that power is being exported to the outside world by the drive coil and it is not heating the drive coil, it is spinning the rotor instead.

This is an experiment that proves to you that the conservation of energy applies to a pulsing drive coil in a pulse motor.  There are no magical curlicues of some imaginary vortex whatever entering via the side of the coil via a Bloch wall that doesn't even exist, which is what Johnny Badonkadunk wants you to believe.

Granted, this experiment doesn't really do anything except prove to you that some of the electrical power that you pump into the coil does not heat up the coil.  Some of it flows into the outside world and makes the rotor spin.

MileHigh
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: MileHigh on October 13, 2013, 11:14:34 PM
TK:

I will just comment on the analog computer circuit and some "weaknesses" in it, although that is too strong a term.  These are just some points for consideration.  They are not critical, just perhaps minor nuisances.

In a standard inverting amplifier configuration for an op-amp like we see twice in the circuit, the negative differential input pin is effectively a virtual ground because of the negative feedback servo amplifier.

When you look at the current sense input, you have a 1-ohm resistor effectively in parallel with a 2Kohm resistor.  So that's a 2000:1 ratio and you can pretty much ignore it.   The op-amp will not "disturb" the current measurement in any significant way at all.

In the RC filter stage though it's a different story.  You have a resistor divider network formed between the 1Kohm resistor and the 50Kohm resistor.   That's a 50:1 ratio and that means that the second-stage inverting amplifier is going to pull down the capacitor voltage a bit.  That's less than ideal, but it has been a long time that I have worked with op-amps and I was "playing it safe" in a manner of speaking.  I was worried about making the second-stage feedback resistor too high in value.

Here is a possible tweak:  Let's assume that you want to keep the RC time constant at one second.  Instead of 1Kohm + 1000 uF, you could change that to 500-ohms and 2000 uF.   The 500-ohm resistor is not an issue for the first op-amp at all.  Since it is a negative-feedback servo-amplifier the output impedance of the first amplifier is "zero" within certain constraints and you never go outside of those constraints.

Similarly, you might be able to change the 50Kohm and 200Kohm programming resistors for the second op-amp for 100Kohm and 400Kohm.   The assumption is that this is okay for the op-amp and it will work just fine.  Like I said I am not an op-amp guru so let's assume that this is true.  Obviously there is a limit for how high you can make the value of the feedback resistor and still have rock-solid signal integrity but I don't think a 400Kohm feedback resistor is anywhere near that limit.

If you try those changes, then the resistor divider that's associated with the RC filter is 500-ohms and 100Kohms.  So now we have a 200:1 ratio, which is a lot better than 50:1.  So with this modified configuration the second op-amp will be much less of a "drain" on the RC filter and "disturb" it much less.

The second issue is that there is no zero offset compensation on the non-inverting differential input pin for either op-amp.  If you look at the National Semiconductor applications guide you will note that most of the circuits do some kind of zero offset compensation.  I am making a reasonable assumption that any offset will be in the range of a few millivolts and can be ignored without it mucking the measurements up at all.  In other words, with no current going though the current sense resistor, and with the analog computer calibrated for your selected voltage source for your pulse motor, you might see a few millivolts at the output instead of zero.   Big deal, it's to make measurements on a pulse motor and the power draw for a pulse motor is never near zero.  So I am pretty confident that you can completely ignore this.

Note this is not meant to be a high-precision power measurement device.  It's intended to allow you to see the live power consumption of your pulse motor input or output as you make changes to various parameters.  For example, even moving the drive coil closer or further away from the rotor will likely show up as a power consumption change.  And like I said before, the delta power measurement should be deadly accurate.

MileHigh
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: TinselKoala on October 14, 2013, 06:27:34 PM
The MHOP performs useful work. It's circulating air, driving the EP5043 propeller.


Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: MileHigh on October 14, 2013, 07:09:01 PM
Could be the start of a new fashion trend and therapeutic system!
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: synchro1 on October 14, 2013, 10:56:42 PM
Not to be outdone, a 5000 year old rotor from the tomb of Hemaka at Saqqara:
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: MileHigh on October 15, 2013, 05:50:43 AM
TK:

Another thought or two about the issue of 1-ohm vs. 0.1-ohm for the current sensing resistor for the analog computer.

Using a 0.1-ohm resistor seems more "satisfying" as the design choice for the current sensing resistor because it disturbs the current flow through the circuit under test that much less.  I stated that I was "not comfortable" with the low voltages generated and the higher amplification required from the op-amp.  One more time I have to confess that I am not really sure if these are valid issues or not.  I have second thoughts about stating that the voltages wold be "low" for the op-amp differential input.  The whole point about the design of an op-amp is that the negative feedback reduces the differential voltage across the differential inputs to near-zero anyways.   For example, if the op-amp gain is one million, and the output is at six volts, then there is only a six microvolt potential difference across the inputs.

There is another biggie that I forgot to mention.  We know that the higher the gain for any amplifier, then the higher the noise is at the output.  Noise at the input gets amplified at the output plus the amplifier itself amplifies its own noise.  Supposing that there was a small amount of perceptible noise at the output of the first amplifier because of the high gain.  Well, it doesn't really matter!  The output from the first stage amplifier goes into a humungous RC filter that will squelch that noise to zero!  The second-stage amplifier will never see it!  Hence, 0.1-ohm may be the way to go.

Also, with a FET-input op-amp, this issue of bias compensation may be handled differently.  I was really talking about conventional op-amp inputs where you talk about a very tiny amount of bias compensation current.  There is no DC current flow for an FET input, and I don't know if they need bias compensation potentials.  I am also wondering if the silicon has been getting better and better over the years such that you simply don't have to worry about that issue at all.  I am not motivated to the point of going and reading the TL082 datasheet, sorry.

I suppose in a way that working on the bench is like riding a bike.  It would be fun for me to check every stage of that little analog computer and make sure it was working perfectly. Sigh....  It would be like old times!

One thing that I have never seen in my meanderings on YouTube is someone working with a digital logic analyzer.  Mind you, I have never searched on that.  The point being that you see a smidgen of work with digital logic by the free energy enthusiasts but never any mention of a logic analyzer.  For people that don't know, it's like a scope but instead for digital logic signals.  A typical "scope display" for a logic analyzer would display between eight and 20 digital logic signals.  They usually had two scope-equivalent analog inputs also.  When I used one you could transfer your waveforms onto a 3 1/2" floppy disk.  RJ-45 networking ports, USB, and USB flash drives were way way off in the distant future.

MileHigh
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: TinselKoala on October 15, 2013, 03:35:43 PM
Instrumentation amplifiers:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Instrumentation_amplifier

Logic analyzers:
http://letsmakerobots.com/node/31422

Mixed signal DSOs:
http://electronicdesign.com/test-amp-measurement/what-s-difference-between-mixed-signal-oscilloscope-and-logic-analyzer


Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: TinselKoala on October 15, 2013, 10:21:43 PM
I've moved the sense coil to the underside/inside the rotor. Works great! I still am not seeing anything I can attribute to interaction between the sense and drive coils.

Later on I intend to test for interactions, without the rotor in place. I want to see if I can get feedback oscillations through coupling of the input (sense) and output (drive) coils.

Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: synchro1 on October 15, 2013, 10:35:10 PM
@Tinselkoala,


                    Warp factor quantum leap! A N-S-N-S magnet arrangement would allow you to work the power coil to the inside also, to gain power from both coil poles, along with the sensor coil at 90 degrees. You'd have to cut that screw and tonge depressor off, build a skirt and dangle it.
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: TinselKoala on October 15, 2013, 11:52:26 PM
@Tinselkoala,


                    Warp factor quantum leap! A N-S-N-S magnet arrangement would allow you to work the power coil to the inside also, to gain power from both coil poles, along with the sensor coil at 90 degrees. You'd have to cut that screw and tonge depressor off, build a skirt and dangle it.

Well... sort of. That's a couple steps ahead of where I'm at yet. Sticking with all one polarity magnets for now: how about this: Inside the rotor, a double ended drive coil, wound onto a tongue depressor with a central hole for the axle. The winding would be opposite for the two ends, so they would both present the same polarity on the ends. This would provide a drive pulse to two magnets instead of just to one.
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: synchro1 on October 15, 2013, 11:56:41 PM
@TK,


       Sheer genius! That could mount on the top of a Coanda lift body and fly around like a new spy drone.
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: TinselKoala on October 17, 2013, 04:43:16 AM
Actually I think we have just about invented the brushless DC "outrunner" motor and its op-amp pwm controller.


Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: MileHigh on October 17, 2013, 07:41:09 AM
It looks like a 3-wire interface to the coil array.  Two power signal wires and a fat common ground return wire.  A few basic tests with a D-cell and a compass/small magnet and you could figure out what energizes what and with what polarity.  It would be a fun project to make a motor controller for that.  An Arduino software project or go analog.  The design of the timing circuit opens up a lot of possibilities.

I think of the power booster circuit for the driver.  If you make a voltage servo amplifier like the power booster in theory there is no need for any recirculating diodes or back-EMF collection system.  The power booster circuit would literally suck up any kick-back from the coils.

In my mind it would be fun to go in "blind" without knowing what the real controller does.  You can see how the motor could be made to act like a sort-of stepper motor at low speeds.  But with sophisticated electronics, could you make it turn smoothly at low speed?  What about torque?  Only the mad scientist knows.

P.S.:  I just noticed that the circuit is AC-coupled.  There must also be a DC-coupled version of a power booster.
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: synchro1 on October 17, 2013, 05:49:12 PM
@TK,


       Bust your old VCR open and you should find an "Outrunner" motor just like that one already attached to the bottom of the bearing! I tried to wire mine "Imhotep" style, but failed to get it to work. I think you and Milehigh may be re-inventing the wheel!
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: TinselKoala on October 17, 2013, 07:15:38 PM
I haven't yet looked at the motor in a VCR head.

The brushless outrunner and other brushless DC motors that use three wires: all three wires are "equal". They can be hooked to the controller's 3 wire output arbitrarily. If the motor turns in the wrong direction, any two of the wires can be reversed and then the motor will turn in the other direction.

Here's some info from a very complete app note that describes just about everything you need to know about these brushless DC motors and their drive circuits.

Quote
Sensorless Motor Control
It is possible to determine when to commutate the
motor drive voltages by sensing the back EMF voltage
on an undriven motor terminal during one of the drive
phases. The obvious cost advantage of sensorless
control is the elimination of the Hall position sensors.
There are several disadvantages to sensorless control:
• The motor must be moving at a minimum rate to
generate sufficient back EMF to be sensed
• Abrupt changes to the motor load can cause the
BEMF drive loop to go out of lock
• The BEMF voltage can be measured only when
the motor speed is within a limited range of the
ideal commutation rate for the applied voltage
• Commutation at rates faster than the ideal rate
will result in a discontinuous motor response
If low cost is a primary concern and low speed motor
operation is not a requirement and the motor load is not
expected to change rapidly then sensorless control
may be the better choice for your application.

So for the sensorless system, the motor is driven by energizing the phases cyclicly, and using the non-energised phase's BEMF as the "sensor" to tell the controller what's up.

This is a long but very interesting document (48 pages). I recommend it for anyone working with brushless motors. There are schematics and program code for both sensored and sensorless drivers.

Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: TinselKoala on October 17, 2013, 07:22:29 PM
@MH: It looks like the "power booster" circuit just allows the op-amp to switch the output transistors, which allow more current to flow through the load. Since our present design uses the op-amp to switch a power mosfet I don't think the power booster applies. But the idea of using a half-bridge, grounding the motor load thru the bottom transistor, instead of letting it "float" when off,  might be useful.
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: picowatt on October 17, 2013, 07:44:49 PM
Regarding high side current sensing:

http://www.analog.com/library/analogdialogue/archives/42-01/high_side_current_sensing.pdf

Something like this,

http://www.analog.com/static/imported-files/circuit_notes/CN0116.pdf

driving an active integrator with low drift and high DC precision (instead of just a passive RC).

PW
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: e2matrix on October 18, 2013, 01:31:59 AM
Yes, that's a great classic text all right, thanks for finding it. I found the Sams classic "Op Amp Cookbook" by Walter Jung in the used bookstore a few weeks ago and of course I scraped together my lunch money to buy it.

All op amps are not created equal. Many really do need the bipolar power supply to do their best work (like your analog power computer). Many can be used in single-supply mode as we have been doing. Some are more better for audio work, some are best for comparator applications, some are general purpose, some require dealing with more input and output options rather than just the two ins and one out of the opamps in the TL082 chip. Apparently I once again "aced" accidentally by choosing the TL082 for this application because of the very high impedance JFET input stage and the fast slew rate, and the fact that it works well on the single supply mode. And ease of use, low cost, and easy availability.

Here's something I found just a couple days ago, which made me very excited. This is another "classic" from a bygone era. The chips it talks about are still available, and many of them exist now in advanced versions that use very low power and are very sensitive. There are many many useful circuits and concepts covered in the TTL Cookbook.

ftp://apollo.ssl.berkeley.edu/pub/cinema/04.%20Science/TTL%20Cookbook_0672210355.pdf

It's a 12 MB pdf, an excellent scan, all 340 pages, clear diagrams and even the photos aren't too completely black.

ETA: I just checked EBay for sellers of TL082CN .... if you are willing to wait two weeks for a shipment from Thailand, you can get 10 for $2.79, free shipping. Or.... 50 for $9.99 from the same seller in Bangkok.
Twenty cents apiece! Delivered to your door! How can this even be possible at all?
This guy http://www.thaishine.com/servlet/the-939/10-x-TL082-TL082CN/Detail     has them 10 for $4.83 which includes shipping.   I've bought a lot of things from him and he is very fast to ship and very nice to deal with.   He sells a lot on eBay also but not sure if he has that item up on eBay.   His own web site prices are a little less than his eBay prices too. 
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: TinselKoala on October 18, 2013, 07:04:17 AM
Ah, yes, I got my BC337s from him, along with a couple of other items, from his EBay store. I think I'll place another order.... you are right, the prices on his website are cheaper, I could have gotten 100 transistors for about the same as I paid for 50 on the EBay store.
Shipping from Colorado, no charge, is a real plus for those of us in the USA.
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: TinselKoala on October 18, 2013, 07:53:59 AM
Regarding high side current sensing:

http://www.analog.com/library/analogdialogue/archives/42-01/high_side_current_sensing.pdf (http://www.analog.com/library/analogdialogue/archives/42-01/high_side_current_sensing.pdf)

Something like this,

http://www.analog.com/static/imported-files/circuit_notes/CN0116.pdf (http://www.analog.com/static/imported-files/circuit_notes/CN0116.pdf)

driving an active integrator with low drift and high DC precision (instead of just a passive RC).

PW
Nice advice, added to the MH analog computer idea.

Where you been? We had a bit of fun there a little while ago with LMM, and missed your participation. I hope you watched my "highlights" of the demonstrations.
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: picowatt on October 18, 2013, 03:27:34 PM
Nice advice, added to the MH analog computer idea.

Where you been? We had a bit of fun there a little while ago with LMM, and missed your participation. I hope you watched my "highlights" of the demonstrations.

LMM?
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: TinselKoala on October 18, 2013, 07:52:57 PM
LMM?

Little Miss Mosfet.
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: TinselKoala on October 18, 2013, 07:59:09 PM
Meanwhile, here's an illustration of siphoning off the spike to power an external circuit. It quickly charges the reservoir cap of the little 2-element ring oscillator and provides power to run it quite well. At the end of the video as I discharge the cap I was lucky enough to capture a single frame showing the shower of molten metal and plasma from the tiny spark.

Video is uploading and will be ready in a few minutes at
http://youtu.be/T5I_BM4E00E

The frame capture of the spark discharging the main 150 uF cap is here:
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: TinselKoala on October 18, 2013, 08:14:13 PM
And some power measurement considerations. I am powering the driver/strobe unit from the lower 12V battery of the 24 volt stack, and I can turn off the strobes, but obviously I can't turn off the driver or the motor will stop running. But I'd like to be able to separately measure out the power to the driver/strobe circuit and the power to the drive coil. So far, I know this: I can get the motor to run stably at 750 RPM, moving air with the prop, and drawing about 48 mA with the strobes on, and around 31 mA with them off. And I know that, with no drive coil connected, the driver circuit, without the strobes, also draws around 18-20 mA.

So, it would seem that I am running the drive coil itself on very little power indeed, once the driver and strobe powers are accounted for.

However... since the measurement points are as shown in the diagram below, I'm not sure about the validity of the measurements since the supply voltages are split the way they are, but all the current goes thru the milliammeter.

Any help or comments appreciated.
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: synchro1 on October 18, 2013, 10:39:35 PM
@Tinselkoala,


                   Does the rotor speed up when the BEMF power's collected by the capacitor? 
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: MileHigh on October 18, 2013, 10:45:52 PM
TK:

Easy fix, just put two ammeters on the high side, one for each voltage.

MileHigh

P.S.:  PW, welcome back!  Please forgive my somewhat amateur "brute force" designs.  I know that you are _The Man_ when it comes to this stuff and I am just a Joe Blow.
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: MileHigh on October 18, 2013, 11:39:57 PM
TK:

About your new clip.  Perhaps there is less power out because your drive coil is coreless and therefore stores much less energy.  That's not necessarily a bad thing if you are comparing input power vs. output power vs. RPM efficiency.  It depends on the measurements of course and the timing timing timing.  It's possible that a drive coil with a core stores "too much energy" and you put in disproportionally more energy per drive pulse than you get compared to the push that you deliver to the rotor.  If your coreless drive coil can make the rotor spin at about the same speed as the same coil with a core, that might be true.  Then the core itself may have a fat hysteresis loop or a skinny hysteresis loop.  It's the area inside the loop that is equivalent to the lost energy.  A certain amount of power gets lost in the sloshing of the magnetic domains in the core.

Anyway, it spins and it outputs real joy buzzer pulses!

MileHigh

P.S.:  Did you ever try putting a super-high voltage cap as the load on a pulse motor just to see what happens when the cap voltage reaches crisis levels?  I figure the diode starts to reverse-conduct after every coil pulse which would make life very harsh and difficult for the diode.
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: picowatt on October 19, 2013, 12:33:56 AM
TK:

Easy fix, just put two ammeters on the high side, one for each voltage.

MileHigh

P.S.:  PW, welcome back!  Please forgive my somewhat amateur "brute force" designs.  I know that you are _The Man_ when it comes to this stuff and I am just a Joe Blow.

MH,

I can't agree with most of your post, particularly the Joe Blow comment, I always enjoy reading your posts.

I thought I'd present some alternate circuit possibilities for hi-side sensing.   

I still do design work so I have to keep up with new IC options, etc (mainly linear and data acquisition).  Some of the new function specific IC's are hard to beat using discrete components, particularly with regard to resistor matching (laser trimmed), thermal stability (low drift) and hi DC accuracy/low offset. 

Also, keep in mind that most manufacturers will send out free samples...

BTW, I still have a full set of National Blue data and linear application books from eons ago, and all the "cookbooks".   

(I did, however, get rid of all my old issues of "Photonics" ...) 

PW

 
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: picowatt on October 19, 2013, 12:47:41 AM
Little Miss Mosfet.

Oh, that...
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: TinselKoala on October 19, 2013, 05:22:07 AM
TK:

About your new clip.  Perhaps there is less power out because your drive coil is coreless and therefore stores much less energy.  That's not necessarily a bad thing if you are comparing input power vs. output power vs. RPM efficiency.  It depends on the measurements of course and the timing timing timing.  It's possible that a drive coil with a core stores "too much energy" and you put in disproportionally more energy per drive pulse than you get compared to the push that you deliver to the rotor.  If your coreless drive coil can make the rotor spin at about the same speed as the same coil with a core, that might be true.  Then the core itself may have a fat hysteresis loop or a skinny hysteresis loop.  It's the area inside the loop that is equivalent to the lost energy.  A certain amount of power gets lost in the sloshing of the magnetic domains in the core.

Anyway, it spins and it outputs real joy buzzer pulses!

MileHigh
Now that I've got the drive coil mounted the way it is, I no longer can just slide a core into it like I did at first. But it's pretty clear from those early trials that the core, at least the bolt I used, didn't really help much. It did change the waveform, it did warm up quite a bit, it did put asymmetric loads on the rotor, but the RPM and acceleration were about the same. I don't know what would happen at higher power levels with a core, though. I did run the coreless version at 36 v input and there wasn't much gain from that either. Again, I seem to have accidentally (on purpose) hit a sweet spot right out of the gate, as it were.
Quote
P.S.:  Did you ever try putting a super-high voltage cap as the load on a pulse motor just to see what happens when the cap voltage reaches crisis levels?  I figure the diode starts to reverse-conduct after every coil pulse which would make life very harsh and difficult for the diode.
No, and I'm hesitant to do it right at the moment as I am running low on spares. After the major rebuild I made an error hooking it back up and blew a mosfet and one half of the original TL082. I'm down to one spare TL082 so I don't want to take any risks at the moment. But once I'm stocked with spares again I will try it and see what happens. If the diode breaks down though I'm pretty sure it will take out the mosfet and the op-amp. (My error actually even fried a trace on the little RS PCB, like blowing a fuse.)
I'm just using a 1n4007 rectifier in there at the moment but I think something like MUR1560 or other beefy ultrafast diode would be better.

I didn't want to put ammeters on the high side because I want eventually to be able to just replace them with current-sensing resistors and scope hookups, and I don't have any differential voltage probes, so I need to keep the probe references at the system ground or negative rail.

Meanwhile... the, er, research continues. Now don't go off half-cocked, you know that I'm not making any claims in the following video, but what I am illustrating has caused others to draw conclusions that might be a bit over the top and premature.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xajlH6wkj_0 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xajlH6wkj_0)
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: synchro1 on October 19, 2013, 06:15:07 AM
@TK,


       Improved bearings, coupled with increased storage capacity and charge time would probably speed the rotor up somewhat along with the drop in current consumption. A stronger watt bulb might do the trick too. Try connecting a stock Lights of America type 120 volt LED bulb as load!
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: MileHigh on October 19, 2013, 06:50:41 AM
TK:

If you are tempted you could have another go with your op-amps for your current sensing.  I am assuming this would cost a fraction of what differential probes would cost.

You may have some "signal" type transformers or something that will work fine.  Preferably a 1:1 ratio but even that's not that critical.

You do the dual 9-volt battery setup with a single inverting op-amp and you build this:

[current sensing resistor] -> [inverting op-amp] -> [signal transformer] -> scope channel.

The op-amp is converting the input voltage to a low-impedance output voltage.  That means that when the op-amp drives the primary of the signal transformer, within limits it can supply increasing current when it outputs a DC voltage.  In other words it can energize the inductor in the transformer.  That generates a DC voltage on the transformer output.  It may sound funny to state "the basics" but the important thing to realize that this gives you the ability to pass an uncorrupted waveform from the primary to the secondary down to a fairly low frequency.  In other words, this will give you a "poor man's differential probe" that should work find above a nominal frequency.  The frequency might be quite low, perhaps 10-15 Hz.  Likewise, the larger the transformer the more "headroom" you have for coupling low frequencies.  You know those transformers that might be one-inch cubed?  Something like that, substantial.  I am guessing smaller might work too.  You don't want to get too large because we are going to make the assumption that the smaller the transformer, the better the high frequency response.

Simple test:  You breadboard your inverting amplifier and feed it with a square wave from your signal generator.  The output goes to your signal transformer, and the secondary of the signal transformer goes to your scope probe.  Suppose you start with a 200 Hz square wave.  Your scope channel should show you a very faithful, isolated replication of that wave form.  Then start lowering the frequency.  If you are lucky, let's say you get down to 10 Hz before you start to notice that the transformer is "choking" and failing to replicate the low and high "DC" levels.  If we assume that this is all true, then if the pulse motor is pulsing at say 30 Hz, then the the secondary waveform on the transformer should be an exact replica of the waveform on the primary.   So for five dollars or less, you should be able to enjoy all the benefits of a differential probe using an op-amp, with the understanding that as long as your pulse frequency is above a certain threshold (and you will know that threshold frequency) then you will see a nice clean waveform on your scope display.

When you think about it, it's a nice little potential project.  Two 9-volt batteries, current-in and current-out terminals, an inverting amplifier, perhaps a trimpot arrangement for your input resistance, a trimpot arrangement for your feedback resistance, a trimpot to zero the op-amp output when there is no signal, and the signal transformer, and isolated ground and signal terminals for your scope probe.  You can adjust the gain of the amp whenever you want, and away you go.

Again, there are two major assumptions here: 1) with the op-amp driving the transformer input you will get faithful signal propagation above a certain low pulse frequency, and 2) the op-amp and signal transformer bandwidth will be high enough to give you a quite faithful waveform reproduction.  Perhaps when you compare the original signal and the transformer-coupled signal on your scope for typical pulse motor current waveforms, you will barely notice the difference.

There is also a limitation.  We are assuming that most current waveforms in a pulse motor are of the form <nothing><pulse><nothing><pulse>.  In other words there is no DC bias in the waveform.  If there was a DC bias in the waveform, that would mean there was some constant current flow.  Naturally you can't scope a DC bias.  The op-amp output will induce a constantly rising current waveform in the primary of the transformer.  Eventually the op-amp will crap out or the transformer will get saturated and start to heat up and you will lose all of the signal on the secondary.  But for fun, you could buffer the main op-amp output into a second amplifier.  You could connect a pair of LEDs to the second op-amp output.  So those LEDs could show you "above ground" and "below ground" signal activity - in other words, the direction of the current flow and the approximate magnitude of the current flow.  Just a neato "LED scope" to let you know if something is alive and pulsing without even having to hook up your scope.  If you tuned it right, you might be able to decently judge current flow and direction just by the apparent brightness of the LEDs.

If you don't have a high-bandwidth signal passing transformer then you could probably find something excellent on DigiKey.

So, isolated signal probing is just an op-amp away!   If PW is watching, he could "polish" my comments and give you the real deal also.

It would be a fun and easy project to do.  As you might imagine the identical concept could be done for an isolated voltage probe also.  I think the key is having the right transformer.

MileHigh

P.S.:  There may be an issue that would have to be investigated.  I am wondering what would happen if you say feed a square wave into the input that varies between say zero and five volts (like a current waveform).  Every positive pulse in the square wave will induce current to flow in the transformer primary.  When the op-amp output goes to zero volts the primary of the transformer will still be conducting current.  The op-amp output is an active ground at this time so the transformer primary inductor sees that as a short circuit and current keeps flowing.  So that could be problem, every positive pulse will induce more more and more current to flow into the primary until it saturates.  So you may have to add an AC coupling stage before the main inverting op-amp.  Well, it could be more of a challenge than I thought.  There might even be something in the app notes that would be much better....
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: TinselKoala on October 19, 2013, 07:37:10 AM
https://www.sparkfun.com/products/8882


Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: MileHigh on October 19, 2013, 07:51:48 AM
TK:

You just blew me away with that amazing link.  80 KHz bandwidth and it's fully isolated!  Just requires 5 volts!  It's quite amazing and just gives you all the crap I discussed in one tiny board!

It's great but at the same time, for some and I for sure for you, there is the satisfaction and fun of building something.  But it's still damn amazing.  I also suspect that you can get much higher bandwidth with the op-amp and signal transformer.

MileHigh
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: MileHigh on October 19, 2013, 08:15:21 AM
TK:

About the apparent lack of RPM change in your clip.  Note that you are tapping into the coil discharge while the main agent causing the push on the rotor is the energizing of the coil.  So in theory tapping into the coil discharge is soaking up the "left over" energy and the pushing on the rotor has already been taken care of.

MileHigh
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: TinselKoala on October 19, 2013, 08:19:14 AM
Yah, gotta get me one of them thangs.

But you are right, I could build what you suggest with parts on hand, for nothing. Probably will go for the store-bought solution though, until I discover it can't work right for some reason.

Meanwhile, some unpowered rotor rundown data is coming up, with and without propeller load, CW and CCW:
 
http://youtu.be/_zOwadZH6T0 (http://youtu.be/_zOwadZH6T0)
(still uploading)

(boring video, but confirmation of 90 second rundown from 2000 RPM)

Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: TinselKoala on October 19, 2013, 08:23:43 AM
TK:

About the apparent lack of RPM change in your clip.  Note that you are tapping into the coil discharge while the main agent causing the push on the rotor is the energizing of the coil.  So in theory tapping into the coil discharge is soaking up the "left over" energy and the pushing on the rotor has already been taken care of.

MileHigh

Yes, I believe you are right. The spike and the subsequent ringdown are energy loss mechanisms, normally resulting in the neon lighting up and the heating of the coil and the mosfet. (Some would have you believe that it goes back into the battery; I have one neon to the battery positive, just in case...) So siphoning it off to power an external load is "just" scavenging energy that would be "wasted" as heat and stress otherwise. Free energy, imho, since it's not useful until you go get it and use it, but it costs nothing _more_ than what you are already spending.
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: MileHigh on October 19, 2013, 11:45:32 AM
TK:

I think I fixed my problem.  You know how when a scope is AC coupled you can see how the AC coupling reacts to a DC step input, and it takes several seconds for the trace on the scope to "settle."  It's just a fairly long time-constant AC coupling action we are seeing there and we have to do the same thing with op-amps.

New pipeline:

[current sensing resistor] -> [inverting op-amp] -> [AC coupling with long time constant] -> [unity gain buffer with offset compensation] -> [signal transformer] -> scope channel.

Note this is still a one-chip solution.

We need to do an AC coupling with a long time constant so that it allows low pulse frequency signals to propagate without noticeably distorting them.  We only need one zero-offset point so the unity gain buffer is the best place to do it.  That way the signal transformer primary will have no current flowing through it when the current sensing resistor senses no current.

Let's pick a time constant of five seconds.  That's longer than we typically see for the AC coupling for a scope.

C = 1000 uF,  R = 5 Kohm gives you a time constant of five seconds.  As you can see you could easily make the time constant much larger if you want.

The output from the inverting amplifier will connect to one side of a 1000 uF non-polarized capacitor.  The other side of the capacitor connects to the non-inverting input of the unity gain buffer.   There is also a 5 Kohm resistor connected between ground and the non-inverting input of the unity gain buffer.  So the 5 Kohm resistor is the "DC bias bleed-off resistor."

With this configuration it will be just like an AC-coupled scope trace but with a much longer time constant.  This will ensure that low frequency signals are properly coupled and imperceptibly distorted and the signal coupling transformer primary does not get saturated with constantly increasing current gong in the same direction because all the DC bias gets removed from the signal.

If you notice both the AC coupling and the op-amp driving the signal transformer are designed to be "friendly" to low frequency signals so that you can look at an undistorted current pulse waveform that might be pulsing at 10 Hz.  At the same time any average DC bias will be removed from the signal after about 25 seconds due to the RC coupling circuit.

Again, this is a design without any finesse in designing op-amp circuits but it should give you want you want:  isolated current sensing so you can use an ordinary scope probe anywhere in the circuit.

MileHigh
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: MileHigh on October 19, 2013, 01:23:56 PM
TK:

Note: I am not factoring in the primary winding resistance here.  So this is a work in progress.  Hopefully sill worth reading.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

The number crunching for the signal transformer primary inductance:

You can see the robust little output transistor set from your TL082 in the attached schematic.  You can also see 15 millimperes current output is the limit for the chip at -9 volts.  (It's better on the positive side.)

So that means the output impedance is "zero" at up to 15 milliamperes of current output.  So that means that the op amp can energize the primary with any DC voltage until the output current hits 15 milliamperes.

This causes an interesting revelation.  We want to energize the primary of the transformer with lower voltages, because lower voltages give the op-amp more "breathing room" in terms of time while running with a zero output impedance.

So, let's say that inverting amplifier is low gain, and the maximum voltage presented to the signal transformer primary is +/-0.25 volts.  This is not an issue because you just adjust your scope gain for the display.

i = 1/L integral v dt

We know that v is a constant, so you can take it out of the integral.

i = v/L integral dt

Therefore i = vt/L

Hence, L = vt/i

So, now we just have to plug in the conditions we want!!!

Let's say that we want it to take 1/2 seconds before the op-amp craps out when it tries to put a 0.25-volt DC signal into the primary of the signal transformer.  The current after 1/2 second reaches its maximum of 15 milliamperes.

Notice in this case the signal seen on the secondary of the transformer is fully integral - an exact copy of the input signal.  There is no drooping due to a time constant.  That's because the time constant is "infinity" - the op-amp will hold it's voltage like it has a zero output impedance, and L/R becomes infinity because R is zero.

L = ((0.25 x 0.5)/0.015)

L = 8.33 Henries.

Well, that sounds pretty large after all that crunching.  Perhaps I will try to factor in the primary wire resistance later on.

MileHigh






Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: synchro1 on October 19, 2013, 05:46:12 PM
TK:

About the apparent lack of RPM change in your clip.  Note that you are tapping into the coil discharge while the main agent causing the push on the rotor is the energizing of the coil.  So in theory tapping into the coil discharge is soaking up the "left over" energy and the pushing on the rotor has already been taken care of.

MileHigh

@Tinselkoala,

Lenz delay is caused by a phase shift that speeds the rotor up. Increasing the load beyond your "left over" energy can produce it. I suggested attaching a 120 volt LED, which has sophisticated circuitry in the base. The back spike power will not illuminate it to full brightness, but draw an additional amount that should cause a lag and result in the speed up effect. I got this kind of reaction with my Bedini SSG'S, and think it's worth a try!


The bonus feature of your MHOP circuit might include a possible continuing increase of acceleration with the simultainious readjustment of dwell.
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: MileHigh on October 19, 2013, 08:58:14 PM
TK:

I am getting stuck on the signal coupling transformer part of the design.  I think it's because it's more difficult to couple lower frequencies though the transformer than I thought.   Note that in the AC-coupling with the capacitor, it's fairly easy to have a very long time constant.  So although the signal is "corrupted" because of the voltage droop associated with the RC time constant, you can easily make the time constant long enough so that you don't notice it at all when you look at your pulsing current waveform.

Then when I switched to the signal coupling transformer, I realized that if you had a half-ideal transformer with no resistance in the primary winding, and the op-amp could source or sink enough current, then you in theory get perfect signal integrity from input to output.   However, how long you can maintain that perfect signal integrity depends on how much current you can source or sink at your maximum output voltage.

Let's just do some number without major limits on the parameters.

Let's assume that we can source or sink 200 mlilliamperes and we want one-half second of perfect signal integrity and the resistance of the primary is zero.  We will keep the max output voltage at +/-0.25 volts.

 L = vt/i

L = (0.25 x 0.5)/0.2 = 0.625 Henries.

That seems more reasonable, but then we have to factor in the resistance of the primary winding.  That will cause an L/R time constant for the current flow.

If the resistance of the primary coil is 2 ohms, then L/R = 0.625/2 = 0.3125 seconds.  So that is shorter then 0.5 seconds but that all seems to be in the right ball park.  There is not that much "droop" over 1.5 time constants so it's a reasonable compromise.

If the current waveform is pulsing at 10 Hz and the duty cycle is 50% then the pulse is active for 50 miliseconds.  Let's use that as a baseline.  Let's say we want good signal integrity and very little perceptible L/R voltage droop for 100 miliseconds.

Initial parameters:  0.25 maximum voltage onput, very good signal integrity for 100 milliseconds, 200 milliamperes maximum current sourcing or sinking, and an L/R time constant of 150 milliseconds.

L = vt/i

L = (0.25 x 0.1)/0.2 = 0.125 Henries.

L/R = time_constant,

Therefore R = L/time_constant

R = 0.125/0.150 = 0.83 ohms

So, to meet the "10 Hertz" threshold for good isolated signal integrity on your scope display, you need the following:

Max voltage drive to the transformer of +/-0.25 volts
Op-amp that can source or sink 200 milliamperes of current
Transformer primary of 0.125 Henries
Transformer primary resistance of 0.83 ohms or less

I suppose the above or something similar where you play with the parameters would give you what you want - isolated coupling on a current sensor probe.  It's just that it's a more involved project that requires a beefier op-amp that has higher output current capabilities.  The transformer might be hard to reproduce, I'm not sure.  The low primary resistance worries me.

Oh well, perhaps this will remain a paper napkin design.  If somebody was hard core, this would all be doable.  You can shop around for an integrated amplifier power module, or perhaps even use an old car stereo amplifier.  If you can source or sink a lot more current that 200 milliamperes then you can get a break on the transformer specification and then find the transformer more easily, as an example.

Anyway, I haven't crunched timing parameters for pulse circuits in a looong time.  If I made any mistakes perhaps someone will let me know.  I am reasonably confident that I am in the right ballpark at least.

MileHigh

P.S.:  I forgot to check what the current limit would be as imposed by the coil resistance and the max voltage drive.

Max current = 0.25/0.83 = 301 milliamperes.  It's above the 200 milliampere limit of the op-amp output so it appears that it might be okay.
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: synchro1 on October 20, 2013, 02:58:17 AM
@Tinselkoala,


       Run a ferrite rod with a magnet attached to the end of it into the air core of the power coil from behind.
This will cause the rotor to speed up at a certain distance into the air core. The rotor will stabilize. Now, re-time the circuit and repeat the process, by running the ferrite rod a little further into the core. This should speed the rotor up a second time, wait again for it to stabilize a second time and re-time the pulse again. This should cause constant acceleration with a decrease in input power until the ferrite core is nearly adjacent to the rotor.!  
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: synchro1 on October 20, 2013, 04:22:24 PM

@Tinselkoala,

Please take another look at this video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mzNjAs3-9LA (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mzNjAs3-9LA)
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: TinselKoala on October 20, 2013, 05:21:57 PM
@Tinselkoala,

Please take another look at this video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mzNjAs3-9LA (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mzNjAs3-9LA)

Why? I find it boring and the music very obnoxious. Why don't you take a look at this video, and compare the dates.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W8S02SB-ENA (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W8S02SB-ENA)

Most of my Orbette videos seem to be missing. I have several where I demonstrate and explain the effect of biasing magnets on the drive coils. But even in this video, where I am talking about the effect of the ferrite core on the _generating_ coil,  you can see that I am using biasing magnets on the drive coil, for example at 3:58 you can see the two NdBFe button magnets on the right side of the frame, stuck to the core of the toroidally wound "bead" drive coil.

You may note that I am actually _generating power_ here, from a separate coil system, not extracting it from interacting drive-sense-pickup coils wound on the same core.

You may also note that none of my videos are "monetized"... you don't have to watch ads to see them, and I get _no revenue_ when people watch them.
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: synchro1 on October 21, 2013, 12:26:47 AM

@Tinselkoala,

Here's a quote from your "Orbette" youtube comment:

"Change the inductance of the coil by placing a small magnet near it. Now again compare the rotor's equilibrium speeds with and without the diode in circuit. The speeds will be different with the extra magnet than without it, and the exact amount of work that it takes to move the inductance from its former value to its new value will be seen in the change in momentum of the rotor".

You had no way to narrow the pulse width with your old "Orbette" circuit as the new inductance value changed the momentum of the rotor. Your new MHOP circuit allows you this flexability, right? How better to miser your input?
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: MileHigh on October 21, 2013, 07:23:26 AM
TK:

So now that you have done rundowns it will be interesting to see what happens next.  I am assuming that you have a system to measure the moment of inertia and the spin-down.

Measuring the power required to maintain the rotor at a given RPM is not easy.  Note that you have the sensor coil and the op-amp output giving you ticks as the rotor spins down.  And you could get some ticks if you had a thread wrapped around the rotor with a dropping weight and a pulley wheel.

I assume an Arduino wizard could write a program to crunch the data. I can only think of an old-school way to record the data.  Something like condition the signal so your sound card input could record the ticks.  You record a wav file and there is your raw data.  Then there is a bunch of processing steps to get your information.  I wonder if out there in cyberspace if some Good Samaratin has written an Arduino or other program to do that.

MileHigh
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: synchro1 on October 21, 2013, 03:14:33 PM


Imagine the gain in efficiency the MHOP circuit's duty cycle reduction timing would bring to Art Porter's GAP technology.
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: TinselKoala on October 26, 2013, 12:52:36 AM
I guess it all depends on what you mean by "useful". It makes a killer power supply for my neon ring oscillators.


Rotorless MHOP, the motor with no moving parts:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z0sjqoshznU
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: TinselKoala on October 26, 2013, 01:04:12 AM
TK:

So now that you have done rundowns it will be interesting to see what happens next.  I am assuming that you have a system to measure the moment of inertia and the spin-down.
I'll eventually calculate the MoI based on the weights and dimensions of the parts and the geometry. Without a paper chart recorder, the spin-down is best measured by taking a video (for the time stamps) of the rotor alongside the Arduino tachometer display (for the second-by-second RPM value).
Quote

Measuring the power required to maintain the rotor at a given RPM is not easy.  Note that you have the sensor coil and the op-amp output giving you ticks as the rotor spins down.  And you could get some ticks if you had a thread wrapped around the rotor with a dropping weight and a pulley wheel.
I think you are making it far more complicated than it really is. The MoI and rundown data will allow the calculation of rotor mechanical power dissipation at any RPM in the operating range. The instantaneous slope of the unpowered rundown curve is the power dissipation at that instantaneous RPM (when the correct units are used.)
Quote
I assume an Arduino wizard could write a program to crunch the data. I can only think of an old-school way to record the data.  Something like condition the signal so your sound card input could record the ticks.  You record a wav file and there is your raw data.  Then there is a bunch of processing steps to get your information.  I wonder if out there in cyberspace if some Good Samaratin has written an Arduino or other program to do that.

MileHigh
Programming the Arduino tachometer to write RPM values to a file every second, say, and report it to the controlling computer over the serial line is trivial. A nice rundown curve can be generated this way nearly automatically and in realtime, by sending the data to a "processing" sketch. (What a stupid name for a programming suite. Am I talking about just processing some data, or using the program named "processing" to process the data? Dumb choice of names.)
http://processing.org/
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: TinselKoala on October 26, 2013, 01:08:14 AM

Imagine the gain in efficiency the MHOP circuit's duty cycle reduction timing would bring to Art Porter's GAP technology.

OK, I'll try really hard to do that.

It appears that Art Porter has invented the linear alternator.
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: synchro1 on October 26, 2013, 02:38:49 AM
@TK,


       What's the COP of the rotorless MHOP?
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: Robo on October 26, 2013, 02:46:45 AM
This is in the wrong place I know, but is this possible or is it trickery?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c3I2zeoUbzg
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: TinselKoala on October 26, 2013, 04:03:11 PM
@TK,


       What's the COP of the rotorless MHOP?

Well... if I follow the standard practice of some of the researchers on this forum, I would say that it is over 3.2157673, and it would be up to you to Prove Me Wrong. And if you don't get numbers like that from your replication.... that only proves that you are incompetent and you aren't holding your mouth right, in addition to performing the entire experiment upside down. Your test equipment must be faulty as well; try using an Atten 200 dollar digital scope, or even a sound-card based PC scope.
After all, I've been running for days and the battery voltage is still over 12 volts each, they are still _fully charged_. Aren't they?
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: TinselKoala on October 26, 2013, 04:11:57 PM
I have "found" to many of those by accident,, or finger in the wrong place :)

I suppose what I was getting at is simple.

If you get a reduction in draw while the cap is in use, but up at a higher voltage than the system, then if you take some of the high voltage off and send it back to the source you could get something like a 10 percent or so reduction in running costs.
Yes, I actually think you are right about that.  In this design, at least, the inductive spike and the associated ringdown represents power that is lost, in that it doesn't add to the drive of the rotor, it is just dissipated as heat in the coil and mosfet and as light in the neons. By siphoning the spike out and using it for something, anything at all, you are not taking away from the mechanical drive power of the rotor, you are just taking this wasted power and putting it to use. If you put it back into the run battery, like I'm trying to do through the "run neon" connected to the battery positive pole, or by using any of the various self-charging systems like Bowling's or Bedini's or many others, you might be able to get longer battery runtimes with the same mechanical power output than from the same motor without spike recycling.

Of course, if you designed the motor and driver from the beginning not to make these spikes or to recycle them into the coil at the right timing ... you'd probably get the same increase in runtime efficiency, or even more.
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: synchro1 on October 27, 2013, 01:35:59 AM
Well... if I follow the standard practice of some of the researchers on this forum, I would say that it is over 3.2157673, and it would be up to you to Prove Me Wrong. And if you don't get numbers like that from your replication.... that only proves that you are incompetent and you aren't holding your mouth right, in addition to performing the entire experiment upside down. Your test equipment must be faulty as well; try using an Atten 200 dollar digital scope, or even a sound-card based PC scope.
After all, I've been running for days and the battery voltage is still over 12 volts each, they are still _fully charged_. Aren't they?


           Negative battery electrode ground scouring from the high voltage spikes may account for any actual gain. Briefly; The high voltage charge cleanses the ground electrode of any negative charge until it's below surrounding ambience, and positive power is drawn in backwards through the negative pole. Aaron Murakami and John Bedini spent alot of time discussing this theory over at Energetic forum. The problem is that this kind of charging seems to eventually kill the lead acid type battery.
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: MileHigh on October 27, 2013, 08:47:01 PM
Synchro1:

You should discount that notion of drawing in positive power backwards through the negative pole.  Did you ever see them discuss a circuit?

That talk has it's roots in when people were playing with CFLs and inverted car ignition coils a few years ago.  They would touch a wire to earth ground and see the CFL get brighter and think that "power was coming up from the ground."  Nothing could be further from the truth.  They were just inadvertently lowering the AC impedance of their circuit for whatever reason.  Lowered AC impedance caused higher current draw from the battery and causing a brighter CFL bulb.

Touching the wire to the ground caused increased battery consumption, not "energy to come from the ground."  I think that this may be the actual explanation for the Aaron - Bedini discussion.

MileHigh
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: synchro1 on October 27, 2013, 10:59:58 PM
Synchro1:

You should discount that notion of drawing in positive power backwards through the negative pole.  Did you ever see them discuss a circuit?

That talk has it's roots in when people were playing with CFLs and inverted car ignition coils a few years ago.  They would touch a wire to earth ground and see the CFL get brighter and think that "power was coming up from the ground."  Nothing could be further from the truth.  They were just inadvertently lowering the AC impedance of their circuit for whatever reason.  Lowered AC impedance caused higher current draw from the battery and causing a brighter CFL bulb.

Touching the wire to the ground caused increased battery consumption, not "energy to come from the ground."  I think that this may be the actual explanation for the Aaron - Bedini discussion.

MileHigh


Perhaps an Earth ground might lower a.c. impedance in the MHOP circuit? Bedini has one included in his SSG circuit, and I noticed a marked increase in performance with a solid Earth ground attached to mine.


Here's a revised explanation: "Spontainious generation, not backwards flow".


The high voltage scours the negative ground of all it's electro-magnetic strength, and spontainiously generates a charge in the positive plates of the battery; Like surpassing the Currie point where the heat strips the magnet of it's field. The surrounding field pressure pushes into the positve plates.
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: synchro1 on October 29, 2013, 02:19:25 PM

This video shows one of the world fastest and most power efficient digital PLL (Phase Locked Loop) or digital self-trigger loose coupled full H-bridge's running beyond 260 KHz:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jvEsDX_lCOQ (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jvEsDX_lCOQ)
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: TinselKoala on October 29, 2013, 03:05:22 PM
This video shows one of the world fastest and most power efficient digital PLL (Phase Locked Loop) or digital self-trigger loose coupled full H-bridge's running beyond 260 KHz:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jvEsDX_lCOQ (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jvEsDX_lCOQ)

That video, and the others by "selfonlypath", illustrate the Peter Principle in operation, nothing more.

My TinselKoil 2.0 operates a mosfet full H-bridge at from around 800 kHz to 1.4 MHz, depending on topload, and is self-triggered by RF pickup into a cmos chip, resulting in a phase-locked loop operating at about 2 kW.

And "selfonlypath" blocked me, and removed my comments, after I pointed out to him that Tesla Coils are _air core by definition_ and his calling his ferrite-cored resonating transformers "tesla coils" is a misnomer. He doesn't understand the difference or logic behind using non-saturable cores, so he calls his kludge a "tesla coil" when it's not even close to performing like a true TC. Resonance alone does not a Tesla Coil make!

But he has some impressive qualifications and test equipment. It's really too bad that he is so misguided.
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: synchro1 on October 29, 2013, 04:26:54 PM
@Tinselkoala,


                    What's the operating frequency of the rotorless MHOP?
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: TinselKoala on October 29, 2013, 04:54:01 PM
@Tinselkoala,


                    What's the operating frequency of the rotorless MHOP?

It depends on the orientation of the fields (polarity of coils). In the positive feedback mode it oscillates at a very stable 62.5 kHz but of course doesn't produce the collapse spikes, so no power takeoff is possible. In the negative feedback mode it operates in the same frequency range as with the rotor, 150-200 Hz or a bit higher, and makes powerful collapse spikes, as I illustrated in the video.
This is without cores in either coil.
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: TinselKoala on October 29, 2013, 05:36:45 PM
This is in the wrong place I know, but is this possible or is it trickery?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c3I2zeoUbzg (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c3I2zeoUbzg)

Sorry I missed this when you first posted it.

Don't you find it interesting that it accelerates when he moves it to just the right position on the surface? Look at 3:35 - 3:45. This, I believe, is a definite "tell" showing that it is externally powered, either by some electromagnet under the table or maybe even by a jet of compressed air from offscreen.
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: conradelektro on October 29, 2013, 11:15:43 PM
Ring Magnet Spinner with a single LM311 Voltage Comperator

I managed to make a ring magnet turn nicely with a drive coil, a trigger coil and a LM311 (no transistor). The trigger coil has no core and is placed at a distance of 50 mm from the ring magnet. The drive coil has an iron core. Both coils are taken out from relays.

The circuit consumes about 16 mA at 12 Volt and about 12 mA at 9 Volt.

The ring magnet spins slowly with a 5 V power supply and very fast with a 13 Volt power supply.

The 2nF cap (from IN- to GND) and the 5K resistor over the trigger coil dampen oscillations which would prohibit the functioning of the circuit. I am sure that the crude dampening needs some more work, help is appreciated.

Attached are the circuit, a scope shot over the NPN transistor (inside the LM311) and two photos of my set up.

I got some more OpAmps to play with, but I started with the LM311 because it costs only EUR 0.30 and is widely known.

Greetings, Conrad
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: synchro1 on October 29, 2013, 11:33:38 PM
@Conradelectro,


                        Very nice! So much simpler then the Bedini SSG and the four confusing coil leads. I wonder if you can get a rotorless MHOP effect just by removing the magnet spinner and pushing the coil faces toward one another?
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: conradelektro on October 29, 2013, 11:40:26 PM
@Conradelectro,


                        Very nice! So much simpler then the Bedini SSG and the four confusing coil leads. I wonder if you can get a rotorless MHOP effect just by removing the magnet spinner and pushing the coil faces toward one another?

I am just at the beginning of my tests and could not do much yet. But I will try the rotrorless MHOP effect as you suggested.

Unfortunately I have to travel over the coming days and further tests have to wait till next week.

The idea to use OpAmps (or Voltage Comperators) to drive pulse motors is very interesting. Since days I am trying to learn how to use OpAmps, a whole new world for me.

The output of an OpAmp can only drive small loads, but the driver coil I use has 280 Ohm DC resistance, which keeps the drive current down. The trigger coil has about 1K DC resistance.

Greetings, Conrad
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: TinselKoala on October 30, 2013, 03:59:18 AM
Yes, very neat indeed!
I have a couple of suggestions. First, I'd use an external transistor or mosfet switched by the internal transistor in the 311. This will allow you to experiment with creating the inductive backspike without fear of blowing the op-amp output transistor.  Next, I'd suggest trying it without the diode, and with a capacitor between collector and emitter of the external transistor. You might find, as I did, that you get even more torque to the rotor at the same input current that way.
A further refinement would be to incorporate an adjustable setpoint for the comparator, by putting a trimpot between the junction of the two 10k resistors, with the wiper going to the op-amp inverting input. Or simply eliminate the resistors and use a trimpot instead.
Keep us posted on your progress and discoveries! (I wish my local guy had better prices. I have to pay him over 2 dollars for one LM311. Ordering over the net is such a hassle, I hate to do it, I like to support my local merchants but that's ridiculous. And Radio Shack stocks the TL082 in the stores... for 2.49 each!!!)
What happens if you use a lower value for the damping or bypass capacitor? I found 100 pF was all I needed there.
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: MileHigh on October 30, 2013, 04:19:04 AM
Conrad:

Good on you for your build!  That's a very cool chip, a comparator and a transistor all wrapped in one.  If you can mount the rotor vertically somehow then you can move the sensor coil around to change the start pulse angle.  Also congrats on using the relay coil for your sensor coil, with so many turns it must be quite sensitive.

MileHigh
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: conradelektro on October 30, 2013, 11:29:23 AM
Yes, very neat indeed!
I have a couple of suggestions. First, I'd use an external transistor or mosfet switched by the internal transistor in the 311. This will allow you to experiment with creating the inductive backspike without fear of blowing the op-amp output transistor.  Next, I'd suggest trying it without the diode, and with a capacitor between collector and emitter of the external transistor. You might find, as I did, that you get even more torque to the rotor at the same input current that way.
A further refinement would be to incorporate an adjustable setpoint for the comparator, by putting a trimpot between the junction of the two 10k resistors, with the wiper going to the op-amp inverting input. Or simply eliminate the resistors and use a trimpot instead.
Keep us posted on your progress and discoveries! (I wish my local guy had better prices. I have to pay him over 2 dollars for one LM311. Ordering over the net is such a hassle, I hate to do it, I like to support my local merchants but that's ridiculous. And Radio Shack stocks the TL082 in the stores... for 2.49 each!!!)
What happens if you use a lower value for the damping or bypass capacitor? I found 100 pF was all I needed there.

I followed your experiments with the TL082 and will incorporate your suggestions in my experiments next week. The set point of the comparator definitely has to be adjustable, as in your TL082 circuit.

I had problems with oscillations and many particularities of OpAmps are still a riddle for me. An interesting new field for me.

I have long given up buying components in a shop. It is sad that the local electronics distributers die out, but there are even more worrying developments, like the decline of local food production. We will soon all eat the same gene manipulated and poisoned food out of gigantic factories.

Conrad:

Good on you for your build!  That's a very cool chip, a comparator and a transistor all wrapped in one.  If you can mount the rotor vertically somehow then you can move the sensor coil around to change the start pulse angle.  Also congrats on using the relay coil for your sensor coil, with so many turns it must be quite sensitive.

MileHigh

I experimented by moving the trigger coil to different positions by hand. In my crude set up every position from 120° to 180° in respect to the drive coil was good. The duty cycle is always near 50%, very much independent from the trigger coil position. A ring magnet spinner seems to act differently to a rotor with individual magnets on its circumference.

I like to build smaller motors which need very little power, and there the relay coils help a lot. It would be impossible for me to wind such small and delicate coils myself. The hair thin wire is difficult to handle. But the trigger coil can always be very small and delcate, even in bigger motors. My little core less trigger coil produces a sine wave at a few Millivolt at 50 mm distance from the spinning ring magnet, therefore hardly any drag on the spinner.

I have a little motor with magnet bearings in the works. The smaller the motor the better the bearings have to be. A needle bearing , and a stabilization magnet at the top end of the axle=needle, as in LaserSaber's 3D printed motors, is a very good solution for a small vertical motor.

May be a smaller motor with comparatively strong magnets would show anomalies better than a bigger contraption?

Greetings, Conrad
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: TinselKoala on October 30, 2013, 01:18:59 PM
Just a short little demo, showing the MHOP powering a 5-neon ring oscillator, and including the full set of current schematics at the end.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uGja8eggDmM (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uGja8eggDmM)

I forgot to include the input power meters; this is happening at 24.8 volts at about 150 mA input. The driver and strobe circuit uses about 20-25 mA of that (at 12 volts).
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: synchro1 on October 30, 2013, 03:45:58 PM

@Conradelectro,

Quote from you:

"We will soon all eat the same gene manipulated and poisoned food out of gigantic factories".

Consider moving to Costa Rica; Pura vida!
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: conradelektro on October 30, 2013, 08:56:36 PM
@Conradelectro,

Quote from you:

"We will soon all eat the same gene manipulated and poisoned food out of gigantic factories".

Consider moving to Costa Rica; Pura vida!

There must be some very nice tropical areas in Puerto Rico and growing food should be easy with may be two harvests per year. Agriculture should still be more natural than in central Europe. The travel agencies call Costa Rica a tropical paradise and recommend hiking and trekking tours.
 
As an old man I would probably not support the climate very well and getting used to the situation there would require more strength and adaptability than I have left. Never uproot old people, they tend to die.
 
Greetings, Conrad
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: synchro1 on October 30, 2013, 10:21:45 PM
       "The small tropical nation of Costa Rica celebrated 65 years without a permanent standing army this past December, and now, they’re moving toward another important milestone: A legal framework for becoming a 100% GMO-free country".
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: conradelektro on November 07, 2013, 10:35:22 PM
I am still playing with the LM311 because more modern Comparators and OpAmps which I ordered did not arrive yet.

After learning about offset and hysteresis I changed the circuit and could reduce oscillations. But there still are are few ups and downs when the drive coil is switched off (see the attached scope shots).

After much testing I came to the conclusion that the back EMF spike of the drive coil causes these few remaining oscillations of the LM311 although I cut off the back EMF spike with a reverse LED. Just the presence of the drive coil in the circuit (between positive rail and collector of the internal transistor of the LM311) makes it prone to self oscillations.

It is a bad idea to switch the drive coil with the LM311 (a separate robust NPN transistor should be used) but I wanted to test offset (pins 5 and 6, BALANCE) and hysteresis (positive feedback) in a minimal circuit.

I also think that one should create an external offset between positive and negative input of the OpAmp (as TK is doing it in his TL082 circuit) instead of using an internal BALANCE, it gives more flexibility.

The 100 pF cap between positive and negative input of the LM311 is very necessary to stop oscillations when driving a coil (cap can be between 100 pF and 1 nF). Offset (BALANCE) has to be set in a position which keeps the internal transistor in the off state in case there is no signal from the trigger coil.

If I switch only a LED with a 2 K resistor (no drive coil, no reverse LED) as indicated in the circuit diagram I get absolute clean switching and the 100 pF cap can be removed. By help of BALANCE (offset) I can set whether the LED is on or off in case there is no signal from the trigger coil.

I hope this makes sense, for me it was an exercise in OpAmp circuit design.

Greetings, Conrad
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: TinselKoala on November 13, 2013, 12:49:39 AM
I'm amazed at the distance you are getting. The op-amp sense system can be made very sensitive, but the drive coil coupling to the magnet rotor is what is really amazing. That is some respectable distance there.

Meanwhile, here's another version of the same kind of circuit, using a Cd-S photoresistor and ambient light, to detect the shadow of "something"  ;) and trigger a high-current electromagnet. The 7809 voltage regulator keeps the op-amp sense circuit stable when the mosfet fires, and the "boost" power supply allows the electromagnet to use a much higher voltage than the sense/control circuit needs. The mosfet is a 55 volt, 110 amp part in a small TO-220 package. The mosfet runs cool, no heatsink seems necessary at the moment. The DC resistance of the electromagnet is about 29 Ohms, with wire scrounged from a TV deflection yoke ferrite wound around a u-shaped core of mild steel rod.
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: conradelektro on November 17, 2013, 12:16:49 PM
I'm amazed at the distance you are getting. The op-amp sense system can be made very sensitive, but the drive coil coupling to the magnet rotor is what is really amazing. That is some respectable distance there.

Meanwhile, here's another version of the same kind of circuit, using a Cd-S photoresistor and ambient light, to detect the shadow of "something"  ;) and trigger a high-current electromagnet. The 7809 voltage regulator keeps the op-amp sense circuit stable when the mosfet fires, and the "boost" power supply allows the electromagnet to use a much higher voltage than the sense/control circuit needs. The mosfet is a 55 volt, 110 amp part in a small TO-220 package. The mosfet runs cool, no heatsink seems necessary at the moment. The DC resistance of the electromagnet is about 29 Ohms, with wire scrounged from a TV deflection yoke ferrite wound around a u-shaped core of mild steel rod.

@TK:

I am still playing with OpAmps which open up some interesting "trigger" possibilities, as your latest circuit shows.

From the capacitors and the 7809 voltage regulator in your latest circuit I deduct that you have problems with self oscillations. What ever I try, there are self oscillations which have to be worked out carefully.

My latest idea is that a trigger coil has to be AC-coupled. At the moment I have little time, but I will post the circuit soon.

What interests me most is the very low power demand of the ring magnet spinner I show further up in this thread http://www.overunity.com/13852/self-accelerating-reed-switch-magnet-spinner/msg376292/#msg376292 .

The LM311 consumes about 7 mA at 10 Volt, which leaves only 3 mA for driving the ring magnet spinner at about 2000 rpm. I ordered the MAX931 comparator which should only consume 4 µA. Together with magnet bearings I should be able to get a very low power draw for a ring magnet spinner. The MAX931’s unique output stage continuously sources as much as 40mA which is enough to drive my spinner without any other component.

Once I achieve the very low power draw (I hope for less than a 1 mW) I want to try various ideas for recuperating some energy into a drive capacitor.

Greetings, Conrad
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: TinselKoala on November 17, 2013, 05:38:19 PM
At the very low frequency I use the circuit above for, I don't really get any bad behaviour with the TL082 opamp. (Less than 0.5 Hz). I just sprinkled in the decoupling caps as "good practice", the circuit works fine without them.

The 7809 regulator is there to provide a stable reference voltage for the comparator as the run batteries run down or are drawn down by the power-pulse when the mosfet turns on. Without this stable reference voltage the setpoint control would have to be adjusted as the battery voltage varies. But with the regulator, as long as the run battery voltage is over about 10 volts, the photodetection system voltage and the setpoint potentiometer voltage remain stable and don't need to be readjusted. A better system would be to use an actual reference voltage chip, and some op-amps provide a stable reference voltage at one of their pins, but the TL082 is the simplest op-amp and doesn't have any fancy features like that. The 7809 draws a little more current than a reference voltage chip, and adds to the overhead, but it's all I had on hand and works just fine for my purposes here.
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: conradelektro on November 26, 2013, 08:37:29 PM
Magnet bearings, a question:

Finally I found the time to build a ring magnet spinner (the diametrically magnetised "ring magnet = cylindrical magnet" in the middle of the axis will be spinning).

The bearings on both ends are "magnet bearings" built with axially magnetised ring magnets.

It was very difficult to adjust the magnet bearings. They work fine, but the axis snaps away easily from the glass. The axis is a threaded brass bar. The nuts on the axis are also brass. All other bolts ar aluminium.

I wonder how to build magnet bearings? In the attached drawing please find indicated how it is right now and how one might do it in a different way.

What is the right way of implementing magnet bearings?

Greetings, Conrad
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: synchro1 on November 26, 2013, 09:36:19 PM
@Conradelektro,


                         Both schematics are incorrect. All the magnets face the same direction! The bottom four magnets definitely have all the north poles facing the same way, as well as the two magnets on the shaft. Take special note of the shaft magnet facing the glass wall; It protrudes a little more from the base bearings then the rear one! The top schematic would work fine if you turned the shaft around and repositioned the magnets a little!


                       Here's video number 1 from K&J Magnetics for placement of the magnets on the shaft:


              http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ROEISzWDMdw (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ROEISzWDMdw)


                        Here's video number 2 for placement and orientation of of the four magnets on the base:


              http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LApuHTAo6K4 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LApuHTAo6K4)

               
                          Here's video number 3 to wrap it up:


               http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tsHVrFlO2BI (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tsHVrFlO2BI)


Pseudo-Levitation:  (http://www.kjmagnetics.com/blog.asp?p=mendocino-motor-1)In the first part, we focus on how to setup the pseudo-levitating shaft.  


Two D68PC-RB (http://www.kjmagnetics.com/proddetail.asp?prod=D68PC-RB) magnets in an unstable configuration Repelling magnets are not stable.  If you put the same poles of two magnets facing each other (north facing north or south facing south), you will feel a repelling force between the magnets.  If you try floating one magnet over another magnet, it is not stable in that position.  The upper magnet won’t just float in place.  Magnetic forces (http://www.kjmagnetics.com/blog.asp?p=magnetic-forces) act to rotate and flip the magnet around to attract and stick together.

But what if we use 2 magnets underneath the floating magnets?  Won’t that make it stable?  It stabilizes it in some directions, but not all.  In the series of diagrams shown below, two magnets are spaced at some distance apart from each other with the north pole facing “out of the page.”  You’re looking at the north poles of the magnets.

For a third magnet placed above these two, there can be a sort of pocket of stability.  A third magnet can sit in this pocket, and be stable in the left to right direction, in the plane of the magnets.  It is not stable “out of the page.”
It doesn’t stop the floating magnet from simply rotating around.  It also doesn’t prevent it from moving in and out of the page.  In an unconstrained setup like this, the floating magnet will tend to shoot forward or backward.
But what if I use more magnets underneath to block it?  Sorry, it won’t work.  This is true for any number of magnets you place beneath it.  A mathematician named Samuel Earnshaw (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samuel_Earnshaw) proved that this instability is true for any number or combination of permanent magnets; see Earns (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earnshaw%27s_theorem)
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: conradelektro on November 27, 2013, 10:19:40 AM
There seems to be a difference between using four support ring magnets on the outside (as shown in the videos indicated by synchro1) and using two support ring magnet on the inside (as I do).

I have to use repulsion in opposite directions, the repulsion towards the glass has to be a bit bigger.

The attached drawing shows how it works in my recent build (only one support ring magnet on each side and axis goes through the centre of the two support ring magnets). I tried many magnet orientations, but only the one in the drawing works.

I will also build a contraption like indicated in the videos (two support ring magnets on each side, axis above the four support ring magnets).

Greetings, Conrad
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: synchro1 on November 27, 2013, 02:18:42 PM
@Conradelektro,


         Is the rotor axle making contact anywhere inside the upright holes where it passes through them on each end? The important facet of the pseudo-levitating shaft is that it vectors all the inherent instability in one direction, and one direction only, to the pinpoint on the wall. Note again the stability width diagram below, where the pocket appears in the space between the ring magnets to the right. Your setup appears to have too narrow a spacing between these base magnets.
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: conradelektro on November 27, 2013, 09:01:17 PM
In the first version I do not have "base magnets", just a smaller ring magnet on the axis inside a bigger ring magnet on the acrylic support (concentric ring magnets). The ring magnets are of course not touching but the axis is pressing very hard against the glass.

Now I have built a version with two base magnets. This version works much better because the axis is only pressing very slightly against the glass. All ring magnets are facing in the same direction.

See the attached photo.

Bigger ring magnets and a heavier rotor (axis) seem to be better. The ring magnets I use are a bit weak and the 3 mm axis is too light.

One only learns by building something. I always thought that concentric ring magnets are better, but it seems that two base magnets are easier to build and work very well. When I spin the rotor by hand it keeps turning almost a minute.

Greetings, Conrad
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: synchro1 on November 27, 2013, 11:44:40 PM

@Conradelektro,


            I realized I was making a mistake after my last post. Take a look at how Lidmotor handles the wall end of his levitator in the video below. I'm glad you achieved a great success with your latest build, it looks sensational!  


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VhKG4LPh3EQ (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VhKG4LPh3EQ)
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: synchro1 on November 28, 2013, 08:58:04 PM
@Conradelektro,


                        The elongated coupled double rings at the base and on the shaft look like a novel innovation to me. I've never seen a permanent magnet pseudo-levitator built that way before. Your unique design may be a vast improvement over the existing approaches. Looks like you accomplished at least double the stability over the simple ring version. Very nice! I really doubt Lidmotor's ball bearing and attracting wall magnet would add anything to it.
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: conradelektro on November 28, 2013, 11:39:36 PM
@Conradelektro,
The elongated coupled double rings at the base and on the shaft look like a novel innovation to me. I've never seen a permanent magnet pseudo-levitator built that way before. Your unique design may be a vast improvement over the existing approaches. Looks like you accomplished at least double the stability over the simple ring version. Very nice! I really doubt Lidmotor's ball bearing and attracting wall magnet would add anything to it.

I had to use two little ring magnets because they are weak. They make a nice impression, but I doubt that they add any advantage.

I have some strong disk magnets (no hole in the middle, just disks with axial magnetisation) which could be used as base magnets. The plan is a 5 mm threaded brass rod as axis with a length of 250 mm carrying five ring magnets (diametrical magnetisation) in the middle and axial magnetised ring magnets at the ends. The strong disk magnets placed flat underneath the ends of the axis should hold up this long and heavy spinner.

I noticed some interaction between the diametrically magnetised ring magnet in the middle and the base magnets on both ends of the axis. A longer axis should help. And attached please find an idea to neutralise the effect of the base magnets on the ring magnet in the middle.

Greetings, Conrad
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: TinselKoala on November 29, 2013, 01:06:33 AM
It will be interesting to see if the base magnets can be arranged so that the poles are vertical instead of horizontal. I haven't been able to do that. I use thin flat magnets polarized on their faces, very strong, for my base magnets in the electrostatic Mendomotor arrangement, but they have to be oriented so the poles are parallel to the shaft, and all are oriented in the same direction, so that the shaft magnets are repelled to push the shaft very lightly against the glass end-stop.

Lidmotor's magnet point of contact is pretty clever. My shaft is nonconductive, made from a phenolic tube, but I have an aluminum point insert in the bearing end and I could replace this insert with a steel one, and try the magnet suspension idea that way. I don't think it will give less friction than the sharp aluminum point against the glass, but reducing the number of permanent magnets is a plus.

The full-radial suspension with co-axial ring magnets is better for vertical shafts. It's hard to get a vertical shaft to balance and center properly unless you use full rings.
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: conradelektro on November 29, 2013, 07:44:30 PM
Today I did some tests with a 250 mm long 5 mm diameter threaded brass axis and a magnet arrangement as in the drawing of my last post above.

(250 mm ~ 10 inch)

Initial trials (moving the base magnets around by hand) gave good results, the set up seems to be pretty stable and the heavier axis dampens earratic movements.

Once I have finished the build I will show it.

It seems to be pretty easy and not very critical to build some levitating axis with two base magnets on both ends. The base magnets could be any rather strong magnets (cuboid, disk, ring). The magnets on the axis on both ends have to be axialy magnetised ring magnets, as far as have seen so far.

All ring magnets looks neat, but I have this strong disk magnets (diameter 20 mm, thickness 5 mm, axialy magnetised) which I wanted to put to some use.

Greetings, Conrad
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: conradelektro on November 30, 2013, 10:42:16 PM
Today I mounted a 250 mm long 5 mm diameter threaded brass axis with a central diametrically magnetised ring magnet. The base magnets are axially magnetised disk magnets fixed in a flat position.

There is some interaction between the central magnet and the base magnets, but that does not interfere much with spinning. When I give the axis a spin by hand it spins longer than a minute. Still, that interference has to be studied very carefully, may be one has to place base magnets on top too in order to have a symmetrical situation (four base magnets on each side, two below and two above the axis). I will try that.

Tomorrow I will try the base disk magnets in an upright position (like many people do with ring magnets). Just to see if there is a difference.

Greetings, Conrad
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: Magluvin on December 01, 2013, 07:34:41 AM
Nice work on those mag bearings. ;)

What might be interesting is to have 2 small mags repelling to replace the point of physical contact. ;)
Not that what you have is bad in any way.  ;D   Just another level of amazing. ;)

Mags
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: Magluvin on December 01, 2013, 07:42:33 AM
By the looks of that last pic, just bring a mag close to the back side of the wall that the rod is touching that repels those mags on the axle. Just enough to make the axle not touch the wall any longer.

Could end up with a total floater.  ;D

Mags
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: conradelektro on December 01, 2013, 12:59:55 PM
By the looks of that last pic, just bring a mag close to the back side of the wall that the rod is touching that repels those mags on the axle. Just enough to make the axle not touch the wall any longer.

Could end up with a total floater.  ;D

Mags

A "total floater" is not possible with permanent magnets (as TinselKoala wrote in a post some days ago).

Citation from Wikipedia: "Earnshaw's theorem (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earnshaw%27s_theorem) proves that using only ferromagnetic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ferromagnetism) or paramagnetic materials (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paramagnetism) it is impossible to stably levitate against gravity; however, servomechanisms (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Servomechanism), the use of diamagnetic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diamagnetic) materials, superconduction (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superconduction), or systems involving eddy currents (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eddy_current) allow to achieve that."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnetic_levitation

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earnshaw%27s_theorem

I looked at many "magnet bearings" on YouTube (for instance skycollection shows a nice one http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B56zvadt2vA), and all need that pointed tip of the axis against some glass. Skycollection used two magnets (behind the glass an both ends of the axis) to stabilise the axis against one side.

When using base magnets (two on each end of the axis) there is only a very narrow area where the ring magnets (on both ends of the axis) have to be. And the axis only presses very slightly against the glass, which is bad, because it might easily move away when it is disturbed.

Although I saw many "magnet bearings" on YouTube in the last years I had some personal misconceptions. I thought that I understood magnet bearings, but that was not true. Only by building two such contraptions myself in the last weeks I slowly get a real understanding.

But once the axis floats, it looks incredibly cool and people always ask: "Does it really float?" Well, the axis floats, but needs that glass wall to lean against.

The stability of the axis is a bit precarious and it is good practice to arrange some non touching "guides" around it, to keep it from slipping away when disturbed. Attached is a photo of my "little model" (3 mm axis, 140 mm long) with a "non touching guide" on the free end. This guide keeps the axis from falling off when it is disturbed. A disturbance always happens when the axis stops turning. I think this is because of the interference of the central magnet with the base magnets (but I might be wrong). The axis bangs against the guide plate when disturbed but does not fall off.

I still have to solve this interference of the central magnet (diametrically magnetised) with the base magnets. One could ignore it, but it has a breaking effect, which I do not like, because I want to spin the axis with minimal power.

The idea behind all this is to have a diametrically magnetised ring magnet (on a "floating" axis) spin with very little power. I hope to be able to do it with about 10 Milliwatt.

Once the "diametrically magnetised ring magnet" spins fast with very little power one could try to harvest some power from it (e.g. with a pancake coil) and feed it back in order to have even less power draw.

This probably leads to nothing, but it is a nice play thing.

Greetings, Conrad
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: conradelektro on December 03, 2013, 12:27:31 AM
In this post http://www.overunity.com/13852/self-accelerating-reed-switch-magnet-spinner/msg378265/#msg378265 (http://www.overunity.com/13852/self-accelerating-reed-switch-magnet-spinner/msg378265/#msg378265) you see my "big model" (250 mm long beass axis, 5 mm diameter) with the base magnets flatly underneath the ends of the axis. It needed two ring magnets on both ends of the axis to work properly. There is interference of the central (diametrically magnetised) ring magnet on the axis with the base magnets. But this interference does not stop the spinning of the axis quickly. It still spins about a minute when started by hand.

Now I changed the "big model" by placing the base magnets in an upright position (like most people do with ring magnets in their builds). The base magnets act much better in this position (upright), only one ring magnet on both ends of the axis is needed to make it work. But now the interaction of the central ring magnet with the base magnets is severe. This unwanted interference stops any spinning of the axis rather quickly (within a few seconds).

I see no obvious way of counteracting this unwanted inteference. Any ideas out there. (I could of course go back to the flat position of the base magnets, but also there is some interference.)

Greetings, Conrad
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: MeggerMan on December 03, 2013, 12:49:07 AM
@Conrad,
You could try some mu-metal sheet to shield the centre magnet from the support magnets.
Two sheets either side with a hole in them for the shaft to go through should provide the shielding you need.


Meggerman.
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: conradelektro on December 03, 2013, 01:03:24 AM
@Conrad,
You could try some mu-metal sheet to shield the centre magnet from the support magnets.
Two sheets either side with a hole in them for the shaft to go through should provide the shielding you need.


Meggerman.

I guess Mu-Metal will also slow down the central magnet. Does Mu-Metal interact with a magnet? I tried to put a common steel plate near the central ring magnet and its effect is terrible (on any magnet).

Mu-Metal is also used as a core material for coils, so it must be magnetic (must interact with magnets like iron or steel, only more so). But I am no expert.

I just found this: http://www.abschirmungen.eu/deutsch/produkte/faq/ (http://www.abschirmungen.eu/deutsch/produkte/faq/)

"Es gibt kein Material, das die magnetischen Felder stoppt ohne selber von der magnetischen Kraft angezogen zu werden."

Translation: "There is no material which can stop magnetic fields without being itself atracted by the magnetic force."

That seems to highlight the problem with Mu-Metal near a turning magnet.

Greetings, Conrad
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: synchro1 on December 03, 2013, 01:24:46 AM
@Conradelectro,


                        Jonny Davro extended his axel to perhaps twice the length of yours to eliminate that magnetic drag.
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: conradelektro on December 03, 2013, 01:42:11 AM
@Conradelectro,


                        Jonny Davro extended his axel to perhaps twice the length of yours to eliminate that magnetic drag.

That is a good idea, I might do that as well. Does Jonny Davro show a video with that contraption?

Or I use a vertical axis stabilised on top by a magnet and having a "needle bearing" on the bottom like my little motor in this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OqQSJjRJ6EQ (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OqQSJjRJ6EQ)

Greetings, Conrad
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: synchro1 on December 03, 2013, 03:43:03 AM

Here's the video of Jonnydavro's unit: The vertical axis design looks great!


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eggfplU7Abw (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eggfplU7Abw)


Jonnydavro's vertical axis:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hZbscMyotJg
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: Pirate88179 on December 03, 2013, 04:18:54 AM
Conrad:

That is a really nice build you have there.  I wish I had some thoughts to possibly add to it but I don't at this time.  Really nice job.  Do check out Jonnydavro's work, he has some interesting designs for sure.

Bill
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: conradelektro on December 03, 2013, 12:39:07 PM
@synchro1 & Pirate88179:

I really like the designs from jonnydavro, specially the vertical spinner is a great idea. Thank you for pointing me to jonnydavro's videos. Just what I needed.

Fortunatelly I have got some ball magnets.

Greetings, Conrad
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: conradelektro on December 03, 2013, 04:59:15 PM
I built a little vertical model with a 3 mm axis. There also is interaction between the spinning diametrically magnetised magnet and the suspension magnets (axiall magnetised ring magnets). But it is not very strong although the spinning magnet is quite powerful. The axis turns up to a minute after being started by hand.

See the photos, two little models (vertical and horizontal axis) are now ready to be driven by some electronics. I want to do it with a comparator.

Once I gain some experience with the drive electronics (which could make changes in the design necessary) I might build bigger models with a 5 mm axis.

Greetings, Conrad
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: conradelektro on December 05, 2013, 10:29:23 AM
At the first attempt I could achieve about 13 mW and then 10 mW power draw to spin the little horizontal model at about 3000 rpm.

Power draw:  4 Volt at 3.2 mA  and then 3.6 V at 3 mA

The LM311 circuit is not very good yet, just a quick try. (Do not replicate it.)  Also the position of the coils is not yet optimal. And the LM311 is a power hog.

At the moment I am using a drive coil with iron core and a DC resistance of about 280 Ohm. The next attempt will be to use the same type of coil for triggering and for driving, namely a coil without core and a DC resistance of about 1 K. Finally I will replace the LM311 with the MAX931 which needs a fraction of the power. I also want to try AC coupling of the trigger coil, which should dampen oscillations of the comparator.

I do all the testing with the LM311 because it is cheap (do not mind damaging a few). The more expensive MAX931 comes in when everything is a bit under control.

As it looks now, I can bring down the power demand well below 10 mW. But it will have to wait a few days.

Greetings, Conrad
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: conradelektro on December 05, 2013, 11:27:05 PM
Same circuit as in my last post above, but I am now using identical coils for driving and triggering, no cores. This has the advantage that the magnet is not attracted to the coil unless there is current in the coil.

The power draw ist about the same, round 10 mW (6 Volt at 1.7 mA) at about 3000 rpm. At around 4000 rpm ( 7 Volt, 2 mA, 14 mW) the axis jumps out of the magnet bearings because it is not compeltely true.

The coils have 1600 Ohm DC resistance. It looks like the main power consumption is by the LM311 itself.

Will try the littel core less coils with the vertical model. These coils are taken out of 24V relays.

Greetings, Conrad
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: TinselKoala on December 07, 2013, 08:29:33 AM
Looking good!

Maybe larger diameter ring magnets on the shaft would aid stability at high speeds. My maglev HV esmotor gets to over 5000 rpm and is still stable, and probably isn't as well-balanced as your setup is; it has larger diameter ring magnets on the shaft. But it is also driven by the electrostatic field from the charge deposited on the rotor, which is essentially a constant DC value, not a pulsation like your drive coil produces. That might also have something to do with the stability.

I think the vertical hanging design could be made to be a "full-floater" with the use of an op-amp based electromagnet levitation system at the top. You could use either a ratiometric Hall sensor or an LED-phototransistor or LED-photoresistor pair to sense the vertical position and have the op-amp drive the levitation coil's power mosfet. Or an Arduino can provide even more control, as in my vertical levitation system. Unfortunately I don't have any suitable magnets to make a driven rotation system with my vertical levitator.
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: conradelektro on December 07, 2013, 10:18:10 AM
The biggest hurdl is the interaction of the spinning diametrically magnetised ring mangnet (in the middle of the axis) with the base magnets on both ends of the axis. This causes a slow down of the spin and a wobble of the axis. In addition, the middle magnet is distorting the magnetic field of the magnets on the ends of the axis. This is a more static event (because the three magnets on the axis do not move relative to each other), but still, it has a negative influence on the stabilty of the spin (like a rattle).

I also built a bigger model with a 5 mm axis and bigger magnets, and even a 250 mm Long axis does not solve the problem. One probably needs a 500 mm long axis.

Over all, every thing on an axis suspended on both ends with magnets should be non magnetic (to avoid slow down and wobble) which is a contradiction to a "ring magnet spinner".

The model turns, but not as frictionless as one would hope. Most of the 10 mW (which I need for a 3000 rpm spin) are lost on that.

May be the vertical model, which is almost finished (holders for the 1600 Ohm coils are in the making), behaves better.

Greetings, Conrad
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: synchro1 on December 07, 2013, 02:02:18 PM
@Conradelektro,

                       Here's an "Electromagnetically levitated pulse motor rotor" from Lidmotor:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jJtzxST5f8A (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jJtzxST5f8A)


                       Here's a link to the "Quick and dirty" circuit of Adambus 77:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xKx7Wr9fCfc (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xKx7Wr9fCfc)
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: conradelektro on December 07, 2013, 02:32:46 PM
@Conradelektro,

                       Here's an "Electromagnetically levitated pulse motor rotor" from Lidmotor:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jJtzxST5f8A (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jJtzxST5f8A)

Thank you for pointing me to this video of Lidmotor. It probably is exactly what TinselKoala meant with his levitation suggestion.

Greetings, Conrad
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: synchro1 on December 07, 2013, 02:44:14 PM

One more good link for both a simple Infra red and Hall effect sensor levitator:

http://uzzors2k.4hv.org/index.php?page=magneticlevitation (http://uzzors2k.4hv.org/index.php?page=magneticlevitation)
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: synchro1 on December 07, 2013, 03:06:08 PM

Here's a fully assembled unit for $55. This one has buttons to raise and lower the levitator magnet sphere!



http://zeltom.com/products/magneticlevitation (http://zeltom.com/products/magneticlevitation)
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: conradelektro on December 07, 2013, 03:56:10 PM
I like levitation, but at the moment I want to build a "ring magnet spinner" which uses as little electric energy as possible. The levitation circuit will use some electric energy and therefore I want to avoid it at the moment.

In case one is not so much interested in "little energy" the levitation of a spinner is a very good way to avoid friction and I am glad I now have some good examples which one could replicate.

My line of "research" at the moment:

1) Build a ring magnet spinner which uses very little electric energy (below 10 mW if possible). I want to spin only one diametrically magnetised ring manet, which I consider the minimum build.

2) Try to recover some electric energy from the rapidly spinning ring magnet by help of strange coils (Rodin coil, pancake coil, ...).

3) Compare the "electric energy spent for spinning the ring magnet" and the "electric energy recovered from the spinning ring magnet".

For all the clever ones out there: I know that conventional science says that one has to spend more energy than one can ever recover.

I saw many ring magnet spinners in the forums and on YouTube and I want to get an understanding of their minimum and exact power requirements.  And I want to do good measurements of a possible energy feedback. I am inspired by the many "spinners" and "pancake coils" built by Skycollection (very beautiful contraptions), but he never did good measurements (neither input to the spinners nor output from his pancake type coils). Unfortunately Skycollection recently erased his videos from YouTube.

Most probable this is all for nothing, but I like ring magnet spinners.

Greetings, Conrad
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: TinselKoala on December 08, 2013, 04:32:26 AM
One of the levitation systems from one of synchro's links is really different, patent-protected. It uses very little power to levitate relatively heavy loads, by taking advantage of the attraction of permanent magnets! It is almost an actual case of permanent magnets doing work. Almost.

The usual levitation system senses the object's position and then simply switches or modulates the electromagnet, to make a field that keeps the object lifted up against gravity. So all the lifting force comes from the power fed to the coil, and if the power goes off the object drops and falls away.

This unique system uses a strong permanent magnet in addition to an electromagnet, to lift the object. The electromagnet modulates the field of the strong permanent magnet, making it stronger or weaker as required to keep the lifted object at the same height against gravity. This requires very little power into the electromagnet! The actual "lifting" is done by the field of the permanent magnet. If the power goes off the object is pulled up to the permanent magnet and sticks there! It's even possible to relaunch and levitate from this "parked" position when power comes back on. All with much less power than is used by the ordinary system's electromagnet.

http://www.coilgun.info/lev_visual/home.htm

Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: conradelektro on December 08, 2013, 06:34:24 PM
A lot of levitation ideas on this site http://www.coilgun.info/levitation/home.htm (http://www.coilgun.info/levitation/home.htm) (Thank you TinselKoala for the reference.)

My vertical spinner does not work properly. The axis would need some guidance at the lower end, it tries to escape from the coils. I put some guide at the lower end and it spins but of course the "guide" causes terrible friction. Some needle bearing at the ground end and some magnet stabilisation at the top end would do it. But I do not want to go down that route at the moment.

I will build a 250 mm long and 3 mm diameter horizontal axis, with magnet bearings at both ends (base magnets), and the nice strong magnet (diametrically magnetised) from the non-working vertical model as a spinner (in the middle of the axis). The length of the axis should reduce the interference of the spinning magnet with the magnets of the magnet bearings at both ends of the axis.

My tests and models so far suggest that I need somewhere around 10 mW to spin a ring magnet spinner nicely (3000 rpm or a bit faster).

I also see now that a needle bearing with a magnet as a stabilizer at the top of the axis (as I did in this little motor http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OqQSJjRJ6EQ (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OqQSJjRJ6EQ) ) is the most simple low friction bearing one can build at home. The self made magnet bearings (base magnets) are not without drawbacks (little stability, interference with a central magnet on the axis).

Greetings, Conrad

P.S.: It is easy to talk, but much more time consuming and not so easy to build something.
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: TinselKoala on December 09, 2013, 02:05:36 AM
The links to the levitators originally came from synchro, lots of neat stuff in there but only the "visual levitator" that I mentioned above is unique in its operation, and low-powered.

Your vertical spinner could probably be stabilized by a pair of magnets in attraction on the bottom end, one on the shaft and one on the base. You'd have to adjust the spacing carefully because these magnets would be aiding "gravity" in pulling the shaft downward, but should provide a "cone" of magnetic attraction that would keep the bottom of the shaft from wandering sideways.

Looking at the map of field lines in the horizontal suspension system, you can probably guess that larger diameter suspension magnets, both on the base and on the axle, would help stability of that system. A "pulling" pair on the opposite shaft end from the point contact might also help, as I suggested for the vertical system.
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: synchro1 on December 09, 2013, 10:09:47 PM
@Conradelektro,
 
Two diametrically opposed power coils, one reverse wound and wired in parallel with the other, both pulsing simultainiously on each side of the vertical dipole rotor would steady it.
 
@Tinselkoala,
 
A quote from the visual levitator thread,
 
¨The system, developed by Nabeel Shirazee for Magnetic Suspensions Ltd, uses powerful permanent magnets supplemented by electromagnets controlled by electronics circuits. The movement of the levitated mass is tracked and the current constantly adjusted to correct any movement, a system that means large masses can be levitated with very modest currents¨.
 
The Shirazee design coupled with a heavy version of Lasersabre´s 3D precision multimagnet rotor and symetrical pulse coils would allow a comparator circuit along with it´s unique timing feature to really accelerate the rotor to fantastic rates of speed with very high efficiency. It might be possible to evacuate such a setup too.
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: synchro1 on December 10, 2013, 06:37:42 PM
A piece of clear plexiglass pipe could be cut to size and covered by a circular piece of plexiglass on one end, to house the levitated rotor and protect the experimentor from shattering. The spoked power and output coils could position outside the container. This would allow for a large heavy rotor of perhaps eight or ten inches in diameter with a load of very powerfull neodymium rotor magnets, along with the supension magnet on the top. A 3D precision rotor frame closely toleranced to the plexiglass would spin true and safely at very high RPM´s inside this kind of evacuated chamber.
 
I managed a self runner following the principle that magnet strength increases the rotor velocity per given unit of power coil energy. Output coil Lenz drag can be lowered or eliminated as we´ve seen with serial bifilar pancakes at Lënz delay threshold RPM. This Sirazee design evacuated rotor build would beat Skycollection´s device. 
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: conradelektro on December 10, 2013, 07:24:21 PM
I tried to stabilise the hanging spinner, but the interference of the big diametrically magnetised cylinder magnet with whatever magnets I place at the bottom is very strong. The axis should be very long to create some distance, but with a long axis the horizontal placement seems to be much more practical and stable.

Also two drive coils at 180° for the hanging axis do net help, because they do not define a clear middle position, one is always a bit stronger. Like with levitation, one would need some electronics to centre the axis.

I think I have now figured out a good combination of axis length and magnets for a horizontal spinner, I just have to get a 250 mm  long 3 mm diameter axis, I used up all I have got for shorter pieces.

One could of course build all sorts of very nice spinners, but for me it has to be something that is possible at home with ordinary tools. Vacuum is beyond my reach, also very precise workmanship is not my strength. I am getting better at it, but there is still a long way to go.

I did a new vertical needle bearing with a magnet near the top to hold the axis straight up (a 230 mm long steel needle). It was very easy to build and spinns nicely. It is intended for an electrostatic motor. For me a needle bearing with a vertical needle and a magnet near the top seems to work best.  This is something I can handle. I could of course build a vertical magnet spinner with a long needle, but the needle being steel would cause again some magnetic disturbances.

The very long steel needles are called upholstery needles: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Dritz-Silver-Various-sized-Metal-Upholstery-Needles-Pack-of-Four-/350949938097?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item51b63f13b1 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/Dritz-Silver-Various-sized-Metal-Upholstery-Needles-Pack-of-Four-/350949938097?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item51b63f13b1) (If you look around, you can get them for a reasonable price).

Greetings, Conrad
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: conradelektro on December 12, 2013, 05:45:07 PM
I built a new horizontal magnet spinner.

The axis is 270 mm long (3 mm diameter) and the spinning magnet (in the middle of the axis) is 15 mm long (15 mm diameter, 3 mm bore hole).

Because the axis and the spinning magnet are much heavier than in my previous models, the power demand has risen to about 50 mW (12 V, 4 mA).

The axis turns at about 2000 rpm; 3000 to 4000 rpm are possible (60 mW to 70 mW), but I have to work a bit on the axis, it is not completely true and starts to wobble at higher turn rates.

The magnetic interaction between the spinning magnet and the base magnets (at both ends of the axis) is small (because the axis is long).

I will now concentrate on the electronics for spinning the magnet. For the first tests with the new horizontal model I still used the circuit from this previous post http://www.overunity.com/13852/self-accelerating-reed-switch-magnet-spinner/msg378616/#msg378616 (http://www.overunity.com/13852/self-accelerating-reed-switch-magnet-spinner/msg378616/#msg378616)

Greetings, Conrad
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: synchro1 on December 12, 2013, 10:50:21 PM
@Conradelektro.

The larger magnet costs a little more to turn but will pay it's rent in output. There are ways to cheat Lenz Drag. The setup looks lean and mean. Sorry the diametric power coils failed. 
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: conradelektro on December 13, 2013, 09:37:23 PM
There are ways to cheat Lenz Drag.

I also built a new vertical model with a 230 mm long needle as an axis. I did not use any magnets for the bearings just a brass bolt with a little hole as the ground bearing and a hole in a plexiglas plate as a top bearing. See the attached photo. Power draw and spin rate is only a bit worse than with the new horizontal model (about 30mW 1500 rpm to 70 mW 2200 rpm).

When I used a magnet to hold the axis on the top end I run into trouble. The steel needle was magnetised by the big magnet and rattled because the diametric magnetisation of the needle was interfering with the top magnet. Therefore I gave up the magnet bearings for the vertical model. And it is not much worse (concerning friction) and very stable.

I will now make the drive circuit a bit better and then solder two circuits which go on the two models (one for the horizontal and one for the vertical spinner).

The two models have fairly big magnets spinning which should allow to test different generator coils. There is also ample room to place a generator coil or even two.

While I work on my drive circuit, I would be very much interested in hearing suggestions for coils which are supposed to have less Lenz drag than ordinary coils. I will give them a try without prejudice. Because the drive power is feeble, one should see immediately the Lenz drag. I tested briefly with an ordinary coil and the drag was terrible (as one expects).

Of course you should not disclose your Lenz-less coil in case you plan a patent or some other self styling; me or some sneaky reader might steel your idea and become very rich.

Greetings, Conrad
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: synchro1 on December 13, 2013, 10:42:40 PM
@Conradelektro,

Take a diametric magnet and hold the end up to the spinning rotor. Measure the RPM. A speed up will motivate you to build a series bifilar wrapped, spool type output coil, with a core length and diameter the size of two diametric tubes attached end to end. I looped back to source with this kind of magnet core output coil and charged the run battery forcefully. Tape the ends of the coil. They won't attract while spinning, but they will collide when stopped.   
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: conradelektro on December 13, 2013, 11:16:13 PM
@Conradelektro,

Take a diametric magnet and hold the end up to the spinning rotor. Measure the RPM. A speed up will motivate you to build a series bifilar wrapped, spool type output coil, with a core length and diameter the size of two diametric tubes attached end to end. I looped back to source with this kind of magnet core output coil and charged the run battery forcefully. Tape the ends of the coil. They won't attract while spinning, but they will collide when stopped.   

@synchro1:

Thank you for the suggestion, I will try. But I do not fully understand your coil proposal. Would it be too much to ask you for a drawing, could be a photo of a hand drawing?

By "diametric tubes" you probably meant "two diametrically magnetised disk magnets", or did you mean "two diametrically magnetised ring magnets".

Sorry to ask such dumb questions.

I held a "diametrically magnetised ring magnet" near the spining magnet (in serveral orientations and distances), it always decreased the spin. Then I attached two such magnets together and the result was the same. But I might have done it the wrong way.

Greetings, Conrad
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: synchro1 on December 14, 2013, 04:02:55 PM
@Conradelektro,

                       I'm talking about diametric tube or ring magnets with a hollow core. Point the end of the magnet or coupled magnets at the center of the rotor magnet at ninety degrees from different distances. Try increasing the strength of the magnets over the rotor strength. Believe me when I tell you a speed up of the rotor will happen if you toy around with it enough. The distance where the speed up takes place is inside the neutral zone, a distance of very small calibration, like a millimeter.

                     Skycollection built a "Lenz free" series bifilar stack of pancake coils with a ferrite toroid in the center. This is basically the same design. The ferrite toroid is wrapped with a coil, and saturates turning it magnetic. The toroid acts as a magnet after that.

                     Achieving a speed up with the diametric tube would only require wrapping a series bifilar coil around it at that point to succeed.

                     
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: conradelektro on December 14, 2013, 05:23:16 PM
@synchro1:  Thank you for clarifying further.

I attach a drawing which outlines the experiment I did just now. If you stick two "diametrically magnetised ring magnets" together you get the magnetisation regions (N and S) as I tried to indicate on the drawing, just to check that we agree on that.

I can now easily wind  a bifilar coil around this "tube magnet" (and connect the two wires in series), but it will take a few days because I am working on the drive circuit right now.

I will build the coil in such a way that one can insert two ring magnets, only one ring magnet or none. The length of the coil (axially) will be equal to the length (axially) of the tube magnet (two diametrically magnetised ring magnets stuck together). Is that right? How many turns of wire (a lot or rather a modest amount)?

Concerning the speed up: on the photo you see how I held the "tube magnet". Is this the right way to place it?  At a smaller distance it slows the spin down, farther away it does not change the speed.

I observed an increase of a rattle at a certain distance which I can also feel in my fingers holding the "tube magnet". My guess is that in certain mechanical situations a rattle can increase the spin (by decreasing the friction in the bearings). It did not happen with my contraption but it could have been the case in your test setup. This is of course just a guess, I do not doubt your observations, I am only reporting my little test. I measured the speed with my oscilloscope (in real time).

I am interested in this type of coil because I could feel this "rattle" in my fingers (which means "some strong force"), but the rotor did not slow down (the tub magnet has to be at a certain distance from the spinning magnet). That is interestingly strange. May be this "vibrating magnetic field" induces more current into the bifilar winding than one would expect. We will see, thank you for disclosing your observations I will try to replicate.

Greetings, Conrad
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: synchro1 on December 14, 2013, 08:26:14 PM
@Conradelektro,


Quote from Conradelektro:


"I am interested in this type of coil because I could feel this "rattle" in my fingers (which means "some strong force"), but the rotor did not slow down (the tub magnet has to be at a certain distance from the spinning magnet). That is interestingly strange. May be this "vibrating magnetic field" induces more current into the bifilar winding than one would expect. We will see, thank you for disclosing your observations I will try to replicate".

You're right on target! That "rattle effect" generates a tremendous amount of current. I speculate along with you that the magnetic field is vibrating at a much higher frequency then the sensory vibration. You just struck the mother load. Congratulations!


I wrapped my output coil with 32 gauge magnet wire. Very thin lots of turns, but don't over do it. This will generate a great deal of high voltage A.C. current with plenty of amperage too. Wire that to a bridge rectifier and to a capacitor and measure the charge build up in the capacitor. You will go overunity with this kind of output coil, so be prepared for future shock!
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: conradelektro on December 14, 2013, 08:34:24 PM
@Conradelektro,


Quote from Conradelectro:


"I am interested in this type of coil because I could feel this "rattle" in my fingers (which means "some strong force"), but the rotor did not slow down (the tub magnet has to be at a certain distance from the spinning magnet). That is interestingly strange. May be this "vibrating magnetic field" induces more current into the bifilar winding than one would expect. We will see, thank you for disclosing your observations I will try to replicate".

You're right on target! That "rattle effect" generates a tremendous amount of current. I speculate along with you that the magnetic field is vibrating at a much higher frequency then the sensory vibration. You just struck the mother load. Congratulations!

1) Do we agree on the N-S-orientation of the poles in a "tube magnet" consisting of two diametrically magnetised ring magnets?

2) Is my description of the coil right?

3) Do I hold the tube magnet in the right position (approximately, the distance has to be adjusted)?

Please see my last post and photo. Just to check that I understood correctly.

Greetings, Conrad
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: synchro1 on December 14, 2013, 08:43:37 PM
@Conradelektro,


Everything's perfect so far! That vibration tells me you found the sweet spot. Find a way to secure the output coil right there, and allow for some adjustment; Also, a high frequency Shottky diode in series with a high voltage capacitor is an even better way to rectify and store the high voltage output from the 32 gauge output coil magnet wire. You have no idea how long it's taken me to get someone to try and replicate this effect.                          
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: conradelektro on December 14, 2013, 09:21:05 PM
@Conradelektro,


Everything's perfect so far! That vibration tells me you found the sweet spot. Find a way to secure the output coil right there, and allow for some adjustment; Also, a high frequency Shottky diode in series with a high voltage capacitor is an even better way to rectify and store the high voltage output from the 32 gauge output coil magnet wire. You have no idea how long it's taken me to get someone to try and replicate this effect.                         

@synchro1: I will try to replicate. I am a slow builder, please be patient and Christmas is coming up.

But be aware that I also feel this "rattling" when holding an ordinary coil with iron core at about the same position. See the attached photo of such ordinary coils (with quite a lot of turns of thin wire and a soft iron core).

I do not know what that means, but this rattling seems to be nothing special by itself. The rattling is not that significant with a coreless coil (the same coreless coil I use as drive and trigger coil), but a coreless coil does not produce much current.

I also know from experience that the rattling becomes even stronger when shorting the generator coil. (But I have not done that test yet with this setup.)

One can speculate that a "tube magnet" inside a bifilar coil does something special and i will try to test that. It seems to be not that difficult and one does not need special materials. So, why not.

The flat pancake type coils shown by Skycollection seem to be much harder to build, so I delay them in favour of your idea.

I do not mind if an idea leads to nowhere, at least we will learn something from the tests.

I have high frequency diodes (UF4007, UF5408, 1N5711, BAT42, RB160L), also high Voltage capacitors, and I only need to rectify a few mA because I only feed a few mA into the drive circuit. The whole point of my "low power drive circuit" is to reduce the power which has to be recovered from a generator coil in order to show OU (if it is indeed possible).

If you look at the photos of my models you see that all my coils are mounted on aluminium L-brackets with slits and can be adjusted lengthwise (distance from spinning magnet) and in height. All bolts for fixing something to the wooden base plate are aluminium or brass. The last two models (the long horizontal and the high vertical) are the culmination of at least 10 magnet spinner attempts. All earlier models (which I posted all somewhere in this forum) have much more flaws than these two last ones. And the drive circuit should also be the lowest power I ever achieved with quite big spinning magnets. So much for bragging.

Greetings, Conrad
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: synchro1 on December 14, 2013, 10:28:52 PM
@Conradelektro,


                        You might try and pack some diametric tubes inside one of those relay coils. Rattling an iron core is not the same as vibrating a magnetic field inside a wire coil. Coupling more tubes, say eight or ten would vibrate the rotor and cause an increase in acceleration. You won't be disappointed by the results my friend, if you press through to the end, you have my solemn affidavit on that.  


Here's a video where Igor Moroz inserts a magnet core into a combination power output trifilar coil. The magnet core is opposite in polarity to his monopole rotor magnets, and increases output current: I wrote Igor on Youtube and he answered that he noticed a speed up of the rotor along with the increased output current. A related but different effect. TK has something of interest to add as well.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mzNjAs3-9LA (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mzNjAs3-9LA)
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: conradelektro on December 14, 2013, 10:54:10 PM
@Conradelektro,

Coupling more tubes, say eight or ten would vibrate the rotor and cause an increase in acceleration.

I have ten of the diametrically magnetised ring magnets I used and showed on the photo above.

Should I make a longer coil with e.g. 5 or 6 ring magnets stuck together (a long tube) as the core?

They will not fit into my relays coils, but I can wind such a coil (bifilar)?

I just held 6 diametrically magnetised ring magnets (stuck together) near the spinning magnet. They also rattle (all of them) and I have to stay a bit further away from the spinning magnet than with only two ring magnets between my fingers (in order not to slow the spinning magnet down).

Since the ring magnets have a diameter of 10 mm and a heigth of 5 mm, the six ring magnets stuck together would make a 30 mm long "magnet tube core" with a diameter of 10 mm. Would that be better than a 10 mm long "magnet tube core" (only two ring magnets)?

Sorry to nail you with so many questions, but I want to get it right. There is no sense in winding the wrong coil.

I can make the coil like Igor's (so that one can slide the magnets in and out)?

Greetings, Conrad
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: conradelektro on December 14, 2013, 11:29:04 PM
Observation: I am holding six diametrically ring magnets (stuck together) near the spinning magnet as shown in the photo in my last post.

- If the rotor does not spin and I hold the ring magnets there, the rotor turns a particular side towards the ring magnets and I feel an attracting force (the ring magnets are sucked towards the stationary spin-magnet).

- If the rotor is turning (with e.g. 2500 rpm) the six ring magnets (held as in the photo) are repelled (a little) from the rotor. I can approach them further to the spinning magnet (by force) and the rattling becomes stronger and the spin slows down (but still spinning at a lower rpm). At a certain close position (about 30 mm) the spinning magnet stops and the situation reverses to attraction. The region where this repelling works most pronounced is very small (at a certain distance from the spinning rotor, this might be the sweet spot synchro is talking about).

You have to play around a bit to become aware of it. It is not immediately evident, because it is such a small region where one can feel the repelling without doubt. When the spin-Magnet is stationary the attraction is everywhere, such easy to see.

Wow, I am impressed, something I did not expect. Thank you synchro1 for drawing my attention to that, I give you the informal "blue Nobel badge for strange observations". Wear it proudly!

Greetings, Conrad
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: synchro1 on December 15, 2013, 12:58:50 AM
@Conradelektro,

Thanks for the Blue Nobel Badge "Strangeness observed award".

Six years ago I constructed a Cook battery with eight powerful 1/2" x 1" diametric tubes inside an electrical conduit and wrapped first with a 32 gauge magnet wire primary then a thick plastic insulated 16 gauge household wire secondary connected serially to the magnet wire. This was 1/2 of the cook battery. I had this on my work bench while I was spinning a large 2" diametric magnet with a Bedini coil. The large tube collided with the cook battery and stuck there standing still, but I noticed that when I pushed the tube in towards the bearingless spinner while in motion, it repelled it. When I got really close it began to speed up, and shove off! I checked the output and it was substantial. That's how I began to explore the strange effects you observed. You're on the cutting edge with the experimental research at this time. I only went so far and can tell you only a limited amount. I think running the magnets inside a coil core like Igor's would result in unanticipated results that only experimentation can determine. You're shoving the torch of learning into the darkness for us at this time. I'm learning from you. Very exciting, Keep it up!

Wrapping the entire stack of coupled tubes should multiply the output exponentially. There's a satellite effect in play that's potentially infinite in extent. Look at the number of spinners JonnyDavro sets into motion with no additional draw on the power coil input, from 2 AA's:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XuVtKYfSDI8 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XuVtKYfSDI8)

The field of the coupled stack is moving cost free from the quantum like the satellite spinners. The field seesaws instead of rotating. The output doesn't come directly from the prime mover, but from the field fluctuation in the satellite stack. Cover the magnets with a few wraps of dielectric tape before winding. Once the coil's wrapped around the magnets a multi meter can help optimally position it. This is one way we get to cheat "Lenz Drag"!
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: conradelektro on December 15, 2013, 12:55:49 PM
Wrapping the entire stack of coupled tubes should multiply the output exponentially. There's a satellite effect in play that's potentially infinite in extent. Look at the number of spinners JonnyDavro sets into motion with no additional draw on the power coil input, from 2 AA's:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XuVtKYfSDI8 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XuVtKYfSDI8)

The field of the coupled stack is moving cost free from the quantum like the satellite spinners. The field seesaws instead of rotating. The output doesn't come directly from the prime mover, but from the field fluctuation in the satellite stack. Cover the magnets with a few wraps of dielectric tape before winding. Once the coil's wrapped around the magnets a multi meter can help optimally position it. This is one way we get to cheat "Lenz Drag"!

This is a nice theory and I am willing to give it a try. But I am not willing to disrupt my life because of this theory (I have other things to do as well). So, it will take time while I slowly build my stuff and report what I see.

It is very nice and considerate of you to freely share your thoughts and I appreciate that. Please have patience and please correct any errors I do while building.

Would be nice if other experimenters went into that area as well. It is fairly easy to build a magnet spinner and more talented people can surly build better spinners than me. Once there is a magnet spinner (spinning a diametrically magnetised ring magnet, take a fairly big one) one can easily put a "synchro coil" near it.

My little theory is that the drive electronics should consume as little electricity as you can manage. Burning many Watts for driving the spinner will be extremely difficult to recuperate with a generator coil (no matter how ever magic the generator coil will be). You can use the OpAmp circuit TinselKoala showed in this thread. The Bedini style circuits use too much electric energy according to my unimportant opinion. One could also use the two transistor circuit I show in my video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OqQSJjRJ6EQ (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OqQSJjRJ6EQ) . If I recall correctly, Lidmotor and others used it for a magnet spinner (I never did).

I believe in a drive coil and trigger coil without core and very many turns of wire, which means the coil will have a high DC resistance (which is easy to measure). My trick is to take such coils out of relays (24V or 48V relays, I have shown them in this thread and else where http://www.overunity.com/13852/self-accelerating-reed-switch-magnet-spinner/msg378662/#msg378662 ). These coils lead to a low power draw (but the torque of the spinner will be low as well). But if there is no or only little "Lenz Drag", we do not need high torque (turning strength) to induce current into a "synchro coil".

Just keep in mind that the spinning magnet should be a single magnet. I had two and more of them as a stack on the axis and you can only spin it by having the drive and trigger coil extremely to one side (operating only on the last magnet in the stack from the side). A stack of diametrically magnetised ring magnets has a strange magnetic field around it. The poles are alternating as I indicated in the drawing of this post http://www.overunity.com/13852/self-accelerating-reed-switch-magnet-spinner/msg379579/#msg379579 (http://www.overunity.com/13852/self-accelerating-reed-switch-magnet-spinner/msg379579/#msg379579) (top left corner on the photo).

Greetings, Conrad
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: synchro1 on December 16, 2013, 02:33:44 PM
This is a nice theory and I am willing to give it a try. But I am not willing to disrupt my life because of this theory (I have other things to do as well). So, it will take time while I slowly build my stuff and report what I see.

It is very nice and considerate of you to freely share your thoughts and I appreciate that. Please have patience and please correct any errors I do while building.

Would be nice if other experimenters went into that area as well. It is fairly easy to build a magnet spinner and more talented people can surly build better spinners than me. Once there is a magnet spinner (spinning a diametrically magnetised ring magnet, take a fairly big one) one can easily put a "synchro coil" near it.

My little theory is that the drive electronics should consume as little electricity as you can manage. Burning many Watts for driving the spinner will be extremely difficult to recuperate with a generator coil (no matter how ever magic the generator coil will be). You can use the OpAmp circuit TinselKoala showed in this thread. The Bedini style circuits use too much electric energy according to my unimportant opinion. One could also use the two transistor circuit I show in my video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OqQSJjRJ6EQ (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OqQSJjRJ6EQ) . If I recall correctly, Lidmotor and others used it for a magnet spinner (I never did).

I believe in a drive coil and trigger coil without core and very many turns of wire, which means the coil will have a high DC resistance (which is easy to measure). My trick is to take such coils out of relays (24V or 48V relays, I have shown them in this thread and else where http://www.overunity.com/13852/self-accelerating-reed-switch-magnet-spinner/msg378662/#msg378662 (http://www.overunity.com/13852/self-accelerating-reed-switch-magnet-spinner/msg378662/#msg378662) ). These coils lead to a low power draw (but the torque of the spinner will be low as well). But if there is no or only little "Lenz Drag", we do not need high torque (turning strength) to induce current into a "synchro coil".

Just keep in mind that the spinning magnet should be a single magnet. I had two and more of them as a stack on the axis and you can only spin it by having the drive and trigger coil extremely to one side (operating only on the last magnet in the stack from the side). A stack of diametrically magnetised ring magnets has a strange magnetic field around it. The poles are alternating as I indicated in the drawing of this post http://www.overunity.com/13852/self-accelerating-reed-switch-magnet-spinner/msg379579/#msg379579 (http://www.overunity.com/13852/self-accelerating-reed-switch-magnet-spinner/msg379579/#msg379579) (top left corner on the photo).

Greetings, Conrad


"Would be nice if other experimenters went into that area as well. It is fairly easy to build a magnet spinner and more talented people can surly build better spinners than me. Once there is a magnet spinner (spinning a diametrically magnetised ring magnet, take a fairly big one) one can easily put a "synchro coil" near it".


I want to re-enforce what Conradelektro suggests here and assure everyone that I am willing to help supply guidance to anyone willing to try. This is an open source project, too simple to patent.


Synchro1
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: conradelektro on December 16, 2013, 02:39:27 PM
I was over engineering the drive circuit, a simple transistor circuit does it better (see the attached circuit and photos).

I will now solder this very simple drive circuit two times (one for each model) and start with winding a "synchro coil". The "synchro coil" will have six diametrically magnetised ring magnets (10-5-5 mm) as a removable "tube magnet core": 10 mm diameter, length 30 mm, bore hole diameter 5 mm.

Spinning the rather big magnet (on the axis) with 14 mW (10 Volt, 1.4 mA power supply) at 1500 rpm should immediately show if the "synchro coil" is worth its theory.

It should be easy now to replicate this simple drive circuit (other transistors like 2N3904 or 2N2222) should do as well (but I did not try yet).

If you build a horizontal spinner with magnet bearings, the axis has to be rather long and non-magnetic.

If you build a vertical spinner with a needle bearing below (use a non magnetic brass bolt) and a simple hole at the upper end of the axis, the axis can be a steel needle and should be much shorter than in my build. I recommend a vertical spinner with a needle bearing, much easier to build and coils can be nicely placed around it.

Greetings, Conrad
Title: Neutral Zone of Wesley Gary.
Post by: synchro1 on December 17, 2013, 04:07:42 PM

Here's a video exploring Wesley Gary's Neutral Zone:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ry3qY4nzMew (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ry3qY4nzMew)


Another very good short video demonstrating the polarity shift:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s6QQ9i6siGM (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s6QQ9i6siGM)


Quote from Conradelektro:


"You have to play around a bit to become aware of it. It is not immediately evident, because it is such a small region where one can feel the repelling without doubt. When the spin-Magnet is stationary the attraction is everywhere, such easy to see". 




Title: Levitator positioner.
Post by: synchro1 on December 17, 2013, 04:58:35 PM
A small Shirazee design levitator could be placed at a distance from the base of the coil, against a peg fastened axial disk magnet to keep the diametric core stack positioned precisely in the optimal neutral zone polarity shift output area, not from optical data, but from output power feedback. This kind of self tuning positioner would perfect the generator.


Tinselkoala and Milehigh could probably handle that end of the design with another Op-Amp. This new type of Hendershot output coil together with their revoloutionary power circuit would probably make nuclear fission obsolete.    
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: conradelektro on December 17, 2013, 08:47:05 PM
@synchro1: very interesting info.

For the first tests I will try to position the "synchro coil" by hand, which I think I can do up to a 1 mm precision. Yesterday I tried shortly to find the sweet spot with the horizontal model. It is further away from the spinning magnet than one likes to think (some 80 mm). I guess it depends on the strength of the spinning magnet and of the strength of the coil magnet (the strange "tube magnet" with the alternating poles).

There is unfortunately a practical problem. The Christmas season bogs me down with many social obligations and I can not do much tinkering at the moment. This will probably last till the new year. Be patient, I will not give up this project, but I am slow. May be some one can beat me to it?

I tried to find some useful information about Hendershot:

http://www.svensons.com/Energy/hendershot.html (http://www.svensons.com/Energy/hendershot.html)

http://www.rexresearch.com/hendershot2/hendershot.htm (http://www.rexresearch.com/hendershot2/hendershot.htm)

The patent might have been filed, but was never published as far as I could find out using this:
http://worldwide.espacenet.com/advancedSearch?locale=en_EP (http://worldwide.espacenet.com/advancedSearch?locale=en_EP)

Well, very mysterious, very strange, little useful information, but we will crack it, one way or the other.

Synchro1, may be you want to give us a reason why you are not building such a device, you sound so confident that it works? Never mind if there are personal reasons which you do not want to talk about. But technical reasons might be helpful for others.

Greetings, Conrad
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: conradelektro on December 17, 2013, 09:35:11 PM
Very bad scam with the Hendershot generator http://thehendershotgenerator.com/paygear/ (http://thehendershotgenerator.com/paygear/)

For 47.-- you can buy a miracle! I really hate this, so stupid and so bad!

I hope synchro1 has nothing to do with this bad scam?

The absolutely total stupid sales pitch starts at about minute 16 in the video, you will solve all your power problems by buying some paper for 47.--

Synchro1, are you playing me along and are you laughing when you write your posts in this thread?

Greetings, Conrad
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: synchro1 on December 17, 2013, 10:27:49 PM
@Conradelektro,


                        The Hendershot generator apparently only worked intermittently if at all. I'm not trying to sell it. You have to fly the "Synchro Coil" by hand to get it to put out copiously. The neutral zone is only a hair's width. The poor tolerance of your needle rotor is enough to wobble the zone across the face of the magnet stack, and shift the polarity. The power in the shifting poles is awesome compared to the tiny micro millimeter distance you need to move through the zone. You have to hold the coil and position it artfully to get the full output. The zone is more fluid then solid. The automatic fine tuning positioner is the hurdle that caused me to stop my progress. I considered remote servos and sensing circuitry, but the mechanism was too cumbersome and retarded in response to be practical.

                         The coil will not continue to work in a fixed position for long. You have to sit there on an adjustment screw to get it to operate maximumly. This is potentially a kilowatt generator, perhaps thousands of times overunity. Hendershot deliverd over 40 horsepower for the Army Aircorps in Philidelphia. Nicola Tesla and Charles Lindburg were at the demonstration. The motor koncked out, and was shelved. This problem can be overcome I believe with the levitator positioning circuitry.  


                         Wesley Gary was the first inventor to analyze the neutral zone. Look once again at schematic  number 3 and 4 below. You can see the polarity reverse as the keeper travels across the zone. This distance is only a split hair in width! Think of the power it would take to generate that shift in an electromagnetic coil! That's the power we get to recover with the tiny motion across the zone. Hendershot was a handyman with the "Touch" required to milk the power from the generator.


                        The levitator circuit can turn your experimental coil into a powerful and practical generator that will have the promise to alter our Geo-resource economy dramatically. I am not flirting with you as a jokester. This is very very serious business.    
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: conradelektro on December 17, 2013, 11:17:06 PM
The poor tolerance of your needle rotor is enough to wobble the zone across the face of the magnet stack, and shift the polarity. The power in the shifting poles is awesome compared to the tiny micro millimeter distance you need to move through the zone. You have to hold the coil and position it artfully to get the full output. The zone is more fluid then solid. The automatic fine tuning positioner is the hurdle that caused me to stop my progress. I considered remote servos and sensing circuitry, but the mechanism was to cumbersome and retarded in response to be practical.

                         The coil will not continue to work in a fixed position for long. You have to sit there on an adjustment screw to get it operate maximumly. This is potentially a kilowatt generator, perhaps thousands of times overunity. Hendershot deliverd over 40 horsepower for the Army Aircorps in Philidelphia. Nicola Tesla and Lindburg were at the demonstration. The motor knocked out, and was shelved. This problem can be overcome I believe with the levitation circuitry.   

                         Wesley Gary was the first inventor to analyze the neutral zone. Look once again at schematic  number 3 and 4 below. You can see the polarity reverse as the keeper travels across the zone. This distance is only a split hair in width! Think of the power it would take to generate that shift in an electromagnetic coil! That's the power we get to recover with the tiny motion across the zone. Hendershot was a handyman with the "Touch" required to milk the power from the generator.

                        The levitator circuit can turn your experimental coil into a powerful and practical generator that will have the promise to alter our Geo-resource economy dramatically. I am not flirting with you as a jokester. This is very very serious business.   

@synchro1: fair enough, thank you for the explanation. In fact, your explanation sounds much better than claiming "I have done it". A simple solution would be the most incredible thing. The difficulties you describe could explain why nobody has done it till now.

I definitely do not claim that I can solve it, but I will investigate a bit. It would be good enough to see some inexplicable output at least for some seconds. That would warrant further investigation.

The levitation circuit does not sound good in my ears, I rather think about some type of servo driven by a microprocessor which reads a sensor. The question is "what sensor"? May be a one sided Hall sensor (which only sees one pole) could help.

May be one only tries to move the coil back and forth through the sweet spot to flip the polarisation, instead of keeping the coil in the fluid zone.

1) coil is too close to spinning magnet
2) move the coil away till the magnetic field flips (seen by the one sided Hall sensor)
3) move the coil back towards the spinning magnet till the magnetic field flips
4) repeat at 1)

A movement of only a tenth of a millimetre should be enough? May be Hendershot vibrated the coil with a spring and a solenoid, like the electric bell http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_bell (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_bell)

And as you speculate, may be the little wobble of my magnet spinners does the trick? It should be some random wobble which could move the sweet spot often and far enough?

Just dreaming. And there is no hurry, the world can wait for the miracle a few more weeks.

Greetings, Conrad
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: gyulasun on December 18, 2013, 01:09:13 AM
Hi Conrad,

When you have time, look at this post on this neutral zone, it includes a short video too to show the change of the poles as per the distance is varied: http://www.energeticforum.com/renewable-energy/12413-mr-lester-j-hendershots-magnetic-generator-15.html#post243142 (http://www.energeticforum.com/renewable-energy/12413-mr-lester-j-hendershots-magnetic-generator-15.html#post243142)   Graham's (member GSM) posts on Hendeshot and on Wesley Gary's setup are worth reading in that thread.
Years ago I also tested the presence of the neutral zone, using an AM radio ferrite rod (with rectangular cross section) but I did not have much help to construct a good mechanical setup so had no chance to explore the power capabilities. The neutral line exists of course, the distance how far away or closer this line is with respect to the magnet, it depends on the strength of the magnet and probably the facing area of the soft iron core towards the magnet and on the core permeability.

Greetings, Gyula

Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: conradelektro on December 18, 2013, 08:23:16 AM
@Gyula: Thank you for the information, very interesting. I am intrigued and will investigate. The "neutral line" seems to be something which is not a mere myth. The Hendershot tale is a bit too far out for my taste.

I wonder whether synchro1's "tube magnet" (diametrically magnetised ring magnets in a stack) is equivalent to the horse shoe magnet of Wesley Gray?

Or is the spinning magnet the "horse shoe magnet"?

It seems to be essential to do the experiment (from the video you cited and from at least two Gary patents) with a horse shoe magnet? Did you use a horse shoe magnet in your experiment with the rectangular ferrite rod? But it could be that at Gary's time one simply had no other magnets easily available?

Please look at the attached drawing, is A or B the euivalent of a horse shoe magnet or none?

Greetings, Conrad
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: conradelektro on December 18, 2013, 09:38:17 AM
I found a "horse shoe magnet" in my left over boxes (relicts of former experiments). Is this a horse shoe magnet equivalent?

Four strong Neodymium disk magnets and two soft iron bars stuck to the disk magnet stack (to form a near U-shape). It seems to hold a third soft iron bar like a horse shoe magnet (a bridge over the open end of the U-shape).

One could use thicker soft iron bars and file them to a round shape where they touch the disk magnet stack. In fact, the bar which is held over the open end of the U-shape has been filed to a round shape at one end, but I never made a second one, because the rectangular soft iron bars seemed to work as well.

I could wind a coil on each rectangular soft iron bar or over the disk magnets (may be use smaller magnets and smaller soft iron bars)? Looking at Gray's stuff and the videos concerning the "neutral line" I do not see a "synchro coil"? Therefore "horse shoe magnets" float around in my head? I do not refuse to build a "synchro coil", just thinking and speculating. We are in uncharted territory of strange tales and forgotten head lines of almost 100 years ago.

Greetings, Conrad
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: gyulasun on December 18, 2013, 12:12:58 PM
...
Please look at the attached drawing, is A or B the euivalent of a horse shoe magnet or none?


Hi Conrad,

Yes those setups you show are horse shoe variants indeed but I think you can get a stronger i.e. better horse shoe magnet when you arrange the setup as I show in your modified drawing, version A.
Magnet stacking is not essential but adds more flux, and it is better for the flux transfer when the facing surfaces (between the magnets and the prongs of the curved or straight soft iron) have more or less the same surface area.
I included a C variant too, I believe to be also a good substitute for a real horse shoe magnet. Graham mentioned attaching strong Neo magnets (in correct attract mode) to the ends of a ceramic or ALNICO horse shoe magnet because the latter types are much cheaper than to order an expensive custom made Neo horse shoe magnet (you cannot really find horse shoe shaped Neo magnets, however you can find relatively cheap or moderate priced ceramic or ALNICO horse shoe magnets sold for educational (school) physics labs etc but then now you can build such from normal Neos and soft iron).
Essentially what is required for the Wesley Gary's effect (to get the neutral line for a 'keeper' iron) is to have two unlike magnetic poles bridged on one of their common sides (i.e. via the horse shoe or straight piece) and place a 'keeper' iron piece on the other side of the magnet poles where the neutral line develops.

Of course you place the output coil onto the 'keeper' soft iron (which is positioned in the neutral zone), this means you have to use either (thin) laminated core or maybe ferrite core to get rid of eddy current losses when you load the output coil. The frequency of the output voltage is defined by the speed of the mechanical 'vibration' the keeper core is oscillated with.  If you prefer to use the word 'syncro coil' for the output coil, so be it, though I have not followed this thread recently to figure out what it is.

I think some of Graham's further (single) postings are worth reading here when you have time:

http://www.energeticforum.com/renewable-energy/3639-multiplication-electrical-energy-moving-neutral-induction-line-space.html#post242176 (http://www.energeticforum.com/renewable-energy/3639-multiplication-electrical-energy-moving-neutral-induction-line-space.html#post242176) 
http://www.energeticforum.com/renewable-energy/14534-use-force-luke-use-force.html#post242384 (http://www.energeticforum.com/renewable-energy/14534-use-force-luke-use-force.html#post242384) 
http://www.energeticforum.com/renewable-energy/14534-use-force-luke-use-force-2.html#post242829 (http://www.energeticforum.com/renewable-energy/14534-use-force-luke-use-force-2.html#post242829)
http://www.energeticforum.com/renewable-energy/14534-use-force-luke-use-force-2.html#post242877 (http://www.energeticforum.com/renewable-energy/14534-use-force-luke-use-force-2.html#post242877)
http://www.energeticforum.com/renewable-energy/12413-mr-lester-j-hendershots-magnetic-generator-14.html#post242104 (http://www.energeticforum.com/renewable-energy/12413-mr-lester-j-hendershots-magnetic-generator-14.html#post242104)
http://www.energeticforum.com/renewable-energy/12413-mr-lester-j-hendershots-magnetic-generator-15.html#post243155 (http://www.energeticforum.com/renewable-energy/12413-mr-lester-j-hendershots-magnetic-generator-15.html#post243155)
http://www.energeticforum.com/renewable-energy/12413-mr-lester-j-hendershots-magnetic-generator-15.html#post243189 (http://www.energeticforum.com/renewable-energy/12413-mr-lester-j-hendershots-magnetic-generator-15.html#post243189)
http://www.energeticforum.com/renewable-energy/14534-use-force-luke-use-force-3.html#post243357 (http://www.energeticforum.com/renewable-energy/14534-use-force-luke-use-force-3.html#post243357)

Greetings,  Gyula
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: synchro1 on December 18, 2013, 02:07:36 PM

@Conradelektro,

I tried to buy a Piezo actuator to act as a positioner, but I did not think of a one sided Hall effect sensor . Interfacing the Piezo actuator with a voltage reader caused me an insurmountable problem. Perhaps the combination of these two simple components may work the magic. Good idea! We can simply glue a cheap Piezo actuator to the back end of the magnet stack and attach it to a brace on the coil face. We can then glue the Hall effect sensor to a plastic extender on the front of the magnet stack. Now all we need is a tiny battery and circuit between the actuator and the sensor. This shouldn't draw hardly any power at all.


The diametric magnet field would resemble a horseshoe magnet field on the end through a magnetic flux viewer. The Bloch wall or neutral zone between the poles would be centered in each case.
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: conradelektro on December 18, 2013, 02:19:59 PM
Thank you Gyula and synchro1 for your explanations.

To clarify for all readers what synchro1 proposes, I made a drawing of the "synchro coil" (a generator coil).

I do not realy see the connection (the equivalent components) between a "Gary horshoe magnet neutral line / plate near the neutral line" and what synchro1 proposes (the "synchro coil" near the spinning magnet)?

Synchro1 could you formulate your thoughts on the connection between the "Gary setup" and your "synchro coil"?

I understand that Gyula envisions the generator coil on the plate near or exactly at the neutral line in front of a horse shoe magnet (what I call the "Gary setup").

The Piezo actuator sounds great but it is too early for me to go into that. I want to experiment with a "synchro coil" near my two magnetspinners first. May be one has to go back to the "Gary setup" with a coil on the plate and glue the plate to the Piezo actuator?

Greetings, Conrad

P.S.: "Gary setup" is Fig.1 to Fig.4 from synchro1's post http://www.overunity.com/13852/self-accelerating-reed-switch-magnet-spinner/msg379824/#msg379824
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: synchro1 on December 18, 2013, 02:31:02 PM
Here's a schematic of Domain walls:
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: synchro1 on December 18, 2013, 02:41:18 PM
This is what a Piezo actuator circuit looks like:
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: synchro1 on December 18, 2013, 02:56:01 PM
"The 'field' reversal within the armature relates to atomic domain (electron spin axis) alignments within it, and likely starts at some magnet related centre-line field bulge acting upon the armature surface domains and inducing symmetrical but oppositely polarised waves of reversal which avalanche outwards and through the entire armature".



The polarity shift is merely exciting the fields in the diametric magnet stack and generating a current, not triggering a "Field Reversal" of atomic domain like in Gary's soft iron keeper!
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: conradelektro on December 18, 2013, 02:59:23 PM
Well, the Piezo actuator http://www.allmotion.com/EZPZ23-HR1description.htm is a bit too steep for me, price wise and electronic wise.

I rather experiment with a "electric bell" set up. Hendershot did not have a Piezo actuator in the 1920ies and 1930ies.

But let's do it step by step, first the "synchro coil", then we see more.

Greetings, Conrad
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: conradelektro on December 18, 2013, 03:03:38 PM
"The 'field' reversal within the armature relates to atomic domain (electron spin axis) alignments within it, and likely starts at some magnet related centre-line field bulge acting upon the armature surface domains and inducing symmetrical but oppositely polarised waves of reversal which avalanche outwards and through the entire armature".

The polarity shift is merely exciting the fields in the diametric magnet stack and generating a current, not triggering a "Field Reversal" of atomic domain like in Gary's soft iron keeper!

I might understand that, but what is the horse shoe magnet of Gary in the "spining magnet and synchro coil"?

What is the Gary's plate (in the neutral zone) in the "spining magnet and synchro coil"?

That is my conceptual problem at the moment. I do not see the equivalents in Gary's idea and synchro's idea? There is nothing "spinning" in Gary's idea?

I like the spinning magnet with the "synchro coil" (simple and clean) but I do not see how it relates to Gary's horse shoe magnet and plate?

Greetings, Conrad
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: synchro1 on December 18, 2013, 03:20:07 PM

@Conradelektro,

The plate you're referring to is the stack of iron laminations with a coil wrapped around it that vibrates over the horseshoe magnet right? The Bloch wall comes up from the center of the horseshoe magnet and mushrooms out into a shell. The diametric rotor has the same Bloch wall mushroom shell as the horseshoe magnet. There's a good schematic of this on Morpher44's video introductions, I can't find a way to copy it over.


Spinning the horseshoe magnet would not influence the position of the Bloch wall or mushrooming neutral zone. There's no attraction or repulsion inside the neutral zone. Spinning the horseshoe magnet with the iron keeper inside the neutral zone would have no effect on either the magnet or the keeper; However, if it wobbled a little bit, it would have the same effect on the keeper as vibrating the keeper in and out of the zone to reverse the domain polarity while stationary. The saturation effect on the iron eventually kills the reversal effect and makes this model extremely inefficient. Using the advanced neo magnets over the soft iron keeper laminations is thousands of times more powerful. Our test setup is basically identical to Wesley Gary's original patent, except we're wrapping around a stack of magnets and vibrating the field instead of wrapping around a stack of iron laminations and reversing the atomic domain. Every diametric magnet rotor is just eccentric enough to oscillate the zone due to the low tolerance's of the magnet manufacturers.


After you're finished wrapping the magnet coil and confirming the COP>1 OU with your sophisticated scientific measuring instruments, I believe we'll attract other experimenters from the group and together be able move forward and perfect the generator. This work of yours is an extremely important step, because I don't have the laboratory equipment to adequately confirm my claims.
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: conradelektro on December 18, 2013, 04:39:14 PM
@Conradelektro,

The plate you're referring to is the stack of iron laminations with a coil wrapped around it that vibrates over the horseshoe magnet right? The Bloch wall comes up from the center of the horseshoe magnet and mushrooms out into a shell. The diametric rotor has the same Bloch wall mushroom shell as the horseshoe magnet. There's a good schematic of this on Morpher44's video introductions, I can't find a way to copy it over.


Spinning the horseshoe magnet would not influence the position of the Bloch wall or mushrooming neutral zone. There's no attraction or repulsion inside the neutral zone. Spinning the horseshoe magnet with the iron keeper inside the neutral zone would have no effect on either the magnet or the keeper; However, if it wobbled a little bit, it would have the same effect on the keeper as vibrating the keeper in and out of the zone to reverse the domain polarity while stationary. The saturation effect on the iron eventually kills the reversal effect and makes this model extremely inefficient. Using the advanced neo magnets over the soft iron keeper laminations is thousands of times more powerful. Our test setup is basically identical to Wesley Gary's original patent, except we're wrapping around a stack of magnets and vibrating the field instead of wrapping around a stack of iron laminations and reversing the atomic domain. Every diametric magnet rotor is just eccentric enough to oscillate the zone due to the low tolerance's of the magnet manufacturers.


After you're finished wrapping the magnet coil and confirming the OU>1 COP with your sophisticated scientific measuring instruments, I believe we'll attract other experimenters from the group and together be able move forward and perfect the generator. This work of yours is an extremely important step, because I don't have the laboratory equipment to adequately confirm my claims.

Yes, but why did you have the idea of spinning a magnet and putting a stack of magnets (inside a coil) near the spinnig magnet? Why is that similar to Gary's idea?

1) On the one hand we have Gary: horse shoe magnet and  the stack of iron laminations with a coil wrapped around it that vibrates over the horseshoe magnet.

2) On the other hand we have synchro1: a spinning magnet and a tube magnet (inside a coil) near the spinning magnet.

Why is 1) similar to 2)? I do not understand how one comes from 1) to 2)? What are your arguments for that? What is the common principle in 1) and 2) according to your opinion?

2) (synchro1's  idea) is much easier to build than 1) (Gary's idea), but why can 1) be replaced by 2) without loosing the underlying principle?

The most significant difference I see is that Gary uses just one stationary magnet (a horse shoe magnet) and synchro1 uses at least two magnets (a spinning magnet and a tube magnet inside the generator coil)? There is nothing spinning in the Gary setup (only the plate vibrates), but there is something spinning in the synchro1 setup (the spinning magnet) and the second magnet (plus coil) should vibrate?

I am not criticising, just trying to understand the technical arguments leading from Gary to synchro1? May be I am too much thinking about theory? Let's say Gary's setup realy works. Why should synchro1's setup work, it is different? One can of course turn the reasoning around, why should Gary's set up work, if synchro1's setup is good? For me the two ideas are mutually exclusive?

Greetings, Conrad

P.S.: I see, the middle paragraph in your previsous answer seems to answer my silly questions.
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: synchro1 on December 18, 2013, 05:16:51 PM
I got the results first by accident as I explained when my Cook battery fell into my diametric bearingless spinner. I extrapolated the theory afterwards to help explain the non-understood experimental effects. All that matters is that it works; And if it works, don't fix it!


The diametric rotor has a neutral zone between the poles, just like a horseshoe magnet. Only a dipole magnet can produce a neutral zone, either diametric tube, cylinder, axial disk, bar or horseshoe. This is known as the "Bloch Wall". There's a spatial area where there's no attraction either way. It doesn't matter if it's spinning or standing still, the zone of no force is still in the same relative position. It balloons out, and instead of in adjacency, it turns into a shell, with one pole to the outside of the other, instead of side by side.


Here's a good video demonstrating the magnetic lines of force with a horseshoe and axial magnet. Take a good look at the compass directions from the horseshoe field on the outside. Freeze the video at 0:32 and look at the orientation of the compass needle on the extreme left side. It's horizontal! Think about that. One side of the needle is south polarity and the other north. Completely opposite fields one OUTSIDE the other, but just by a very small area of calibration! This is exactly where we want to position the end of the magnet core. Imagine that area spinning around. The overall net effect on the spinning rotor factors out to zero in this flutter zone, because it's on average either having no effect, perfectly balanced in the neutral zone, or half the time on one side and half the time on the other. Meanwhile abundant power's generated in the magnet core coil wraps from the fluctuating field with no Lenz drag whatsoever on the prime mover! Conradelektro has demonstrated that it's really not that difficult to locate the zone. It's all gravy from that point on!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kdomJQvxPZE (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kdomJQvxPZE)
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: conradelektro on December 18, 2013, 09:04:56 PM
@synchro1: thank you for taking the time to explain your theory, I am catching on.

I also appreciate that you write freely about your theory. Lesser minds would make a big secret out of it (patent, I have OU, you know what we see in this forum all the time).

It is worth wile to give it a try, your arguments are well put. One never knows what comes out of a theory, but why not strain ones mind.

I can report a little progress, see the attached photo. May be tomorrow the first "synchro coil" is ready for winding. Writing in a forum is easy, building something takes hours and hours.

Greetings, Conrad
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: conradelektro on December 18, 2013, 09:29:46 PM
Attached please see the circuit for the first measurements I intend to do with the synchro coil near my vertical magnet spinner. It will be held by hand (resting on the base plate of the spinner).

The intention is to get a first indication of its output power.

Is the 10µF capacitor too high if one expects a few mA?

Greetings, Conrad
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: synchro1 on December 18, 2013, 09:56:00 PM
@Conradelektro,


                        Too big a coil face will create Lenz drag. You won't want too many wraps thick. Keep in mind where the power's coming from. Skycollection uses those big pancakes with the ferrite electromagnetic toroid cores. He only partially minimizes his Lenz drag as a consequence. I wouldn't raise the face more the 1/2", which would make 1" total for drag face. 1/4" might even be better. Thin wire will yield lots of turns due to the length of the coil, so thickness is less of a priority. A 3/8" thick radius would probably be plenty depending on wire gauge. Plenty of turns due to coil length and wire thinness is going to raise the output voltage pretty high, so I wouldn't recommend over winding. The form looks perfect. Very nice work.


                         Milehigh had allot to say to me about the non-difference between a single wire wrap coil and the Tesla series wrap bifilar. The Tesla series wrap bifilar offers "zero resistance to changes in current direction", unlike the single wire wrap coil, makeing it superior as an A.C. output coil. A monopole rotor would not make a difference, but due to the oscillatory nature of the dipole, the Tesla bifilar is a far superior choice.
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: conradelektro on December 18, 2013, 10:16:43 PM
@Conradelektro,


                        Too big a coil face will create Lenz drag. You won't want too many wraps thick. Keep in mind where the power's coming from. Skycollection uses those big pancakes with the ferrite electromagnetic toroid cores. He only partially minimizes his Lenz drag as a consequence. I wouldn't raise the face more the 1/2", which would make 1" total for drag face. 1/4" might even be better. Thin wire will yield lots of turns due to the length of the coil, so thickness is less of a priority. A 3/8" thick radius would probably be plenty depending on wire gauge. Plenty of turns due to coil length and wire thinness is going to raise the output voltage pretty high, so I wouldn't recommend over winding. The form looks perfect. Very nice work.

@synchro1: thank you for the coil face hint, will try to follow up.

Attached please find an updated drive circuit which switches just perfectly (see the scop shots, probe 1 and probe 2), 9 V, 1.1 mA , ~ 10 mW, ~1200 rpm.

Without the 100pF cap (base to GND) there was a little oscillation when switching off, which is now gone (the 22K are also better than the 100K from base to GND).

Let's see what we can generate with the synchro-coil, I am looking forward to the first tests. Unfortunately it is not the best time of the year to go into this. So, be patient. At the beginning of the new year I will be able to concentrate better.

Greetings, Conrad
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: conradelektro on December 18, 2013, 10:34:50 PM
@synchro1:

Does the attached drawing show a "Tesla bifilar" coil winding according to your specification? Just to make sure that I get it right?

Greetings, Conrad
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: synchro1 on December 18, 2013, 11:00:10 PM
@Conradelektro,


                       That's the correct connection. "Zero reluctance to change in current direction". A single wrap would generate waste heat from the oscillatory excitation.
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: synchro1 on December 18, 2013, 11:02:57 PM
Attached please see the circuit for the first measurements I intend to do with the synchro coil near my vertical magnet spinner. It will be held by hand (resting on the base plate of the spinner).

The intention is to get a first indication of its output power.

Is the 10µF capacitor too high if one expects a few mA?

Greetings, Conrad


I think you're ten times too low on your output estimate. I predict you'll generate micro amps, and I would step your capacitance up to 50v 100uF if possible. The amount of output power is going to shock you. Be prepared for a surprise. It should only take a few minutes to top the capacitor off in that elevated range. I'm not fooling around. Brace yourself to soar way overunity when you start to feel that shudder in the magnet core!


Imagine how many times the magnet core field shifts per rotor revolution from the saw tooth pattern of the zone polarity change, compared to the speed it would take to do it from the rotor? The rotor speed might have to be 15,000 r.p.m. to do what 1,500 rpm would do with ten zone shifts per turn.  
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: TinselKoala on December 19, 2013, 08:31:59 AM
@Conradelektro,


                       That's the correct connection. "Zero reluctance to change in current direction". A single wrap would generate waste heat from the oscillatory excitation.

I think we've been here before. Would you please explain just what the highlighted phrase means, in commonly understood electrical engineering terms?

Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: synchro1 on December 19, 2013, 02:09:36 PM
@Tinselkoala,


 JLN performed a series of experiments with the Gegene electric hot plate that uses a Tesla series bifilar coil. Have you seen any of these experiments?

"Here is an interesting experiment about a high power electrical generator which is able to produce some KW. It uses the electronic controller of an induction cooker which can be purchased in any store for less than 80 €. The main specification of the GEGENE (Great Efficiency GENErator) is that it uses a BIFILAR PANCAKE COIL patented by Nikolas TESLA in 1894 in the patent N° 512,340" (http://jnaudin.free.fr/gegene/images/00512340.pdf).

Quote from Wikipedia:

"Eddy currents in conductors of "non-zero resistivity" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resistivity) generate heat as well as electromagnetic forces. The heat can be used for induction heating". (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Induction_heating)
 
I used the phrase: "Zero reluctance to change in current direction" to explain" that the Tesla serial biflilar is a conductor of "Zero resestivity" and does not generate any heat from electromagnetic forces!

A single wrap coil has two ends. Run current through one side then stop and run current through it from the other side in the other direction and alternate repeatedly, then the wire will begin to heat up due to residual resistance. Repeat this with Tesla's serial connected bifilar and no heat will appear. Does this help?

http://jnaudin.free.fr/gegene/indexen.htm (http://jnaudin.free.fr/gegene/indexen.htm)

I tried to point this crucial fact out to Milehigh in our numerous exchanges, and he recommended that I return to kindergarden.


P.S. No hard feelings, I'm glad you're sticking with the thread!
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: TinselKoala on December 19, 2013, 05:08:59 PM
@Tinselkoala,


 JLN performed a series of experiments with the Gegene electric hot plate that uses a Tesla series bifilar coil. Have you seen any of these experiments?
Of course I've seen them. There is no OU there, just a continuing series of misunderstandings and poor measurements, with conclusions based on faulty data and ignorance.
Have you seen a comparison of a TBC with a normal coil using the same amount of wire and the same geometry in the Gegene demonstration? (What JLN has done is a _demonstration_ not an experiment.)
Quote
"Here is an interesting experiment about a high power electrical generator which is able to produce some KW. It uses the electronic controller of an induction cooker which can be purchased in any store for less than 80 €. The main specification of the GEGENE (Great Efficiency GENErator) is that it uses a BIFILAR PANCAKE COIL patented by Nikolas TESLA in 1894 in the patent N° 512,340" (http://jnaudin.free.fr/gegene/images/00512340.pdf).

Quote from Wikipedia:

"Eddy currents in conductors of "non-zero resistivity" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resistivity) generate heat as well as electromagnetic forces. The heat can be used for induction heating". (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Induction_heating)
 
I used the phrase: "Zero reluctance to change in current direction" to explain" that the Tesla serial biflilar is a conductor of "Zero resestivity" and does not generate any heat from electromagnetic forces!
You are once again simply wrong about that. Can you provide any evidence that your claim is true? EVIDENCE from good measurements performed on actual systems by competent individuals?
If by "resestivity" you mean "resistance" as in DC resistance, you are clearly wrong. If you mean, as you have claimed before, that the TBC winding has no inductance, you are also again clearly wrong.
Quote
A single wrap coil has two ends. Run current through one side then stop and run current through it from the other side in the other direction and alternate repeatedly, then the wire will begin to heat up due to residual resistance. Repeat this with Tesla's serial connected bifilar and no heat will appear. Does this help?
This is simply not true! Where did you ever get that idea?
Quote
http://jnaudin.free.fr/gegene/indexen.htm (http://jnaudin.free.fr/gegene/indexen.htm)

I tried to point this crucial fact out to Milehigh in our numerous exchanges, and he recommended that I return to kindergarden.


P.S. No hard feelings, I'm glad you're sticking with the thread!

I'm with MH on this one. You have made preposterous claims about TBC windings before, without any substantiation, but you link to a certain web page as if it supports your claims. The claims on that webpage are also in error and appear to arise, once again, from a misunderstanding of #512340, coupled with some basic misunderstandings of EM theory itself. It's easy to refute most of what you claim about the Tesla Bifilar winding with simple experiments. Have you ever done these experiments for yourself?

Let me propose one to you FOR YOU TO PERFORM YOURSELF. Wind a TBC coil of your chosen dimensions. Use enough wire so that you have a respectable DC resistance. You do believe, I hope, that a TBC will have DC resistance! Then simply hook it to the AC mains through a Variac, and ramp up the voltage until you see a reasonable current of several amps in the circuit. This will reproduce your scenario described above, alternating current in the coil. Now... does the coil heat up, or does it not? If it does... there goes your misconception, out the window, and you really should spend some time rethinking what you "know" about Tesla bifilar windings.

Please perform this or a similar experiment using a TBC that you make yourself, and report your findings.
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: conradelektro on December 19, 2013, 06:46:00 PM
Synchro1 has a theory which sounds good. And I like that he specifies exactly what he thinks should be built. Therefore I am willing to give it a serious try (within my personal means and capabilities).

It would of course be very astonishing if synchro1's predictions come true on the scale he envisions. But let's give him credit till someone has done good measurements. It would also be astonishing that no one has seen this phenomenon in the last 150 years. But still, synchro1 has seen something intriguing and it is worth while to investigate within reason.

Talking about reason. I have to postpone all further work till the new year. Reason dictates that I do not get over exited and enjoy the Christmas season as customary here in Austria.

Everybody, take care till the next year, I will be back and hopefully will do some useful measurements with the synchro coil. May be some will find the courage to join in on the fun in the next year.

Synchro1, thank you again for all your contributions, let's do some work in 2014.

Greetings, Conrad
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: synchro1 on December 19, 2013, 07:08:53 PM
@Tinselkoala,


                   I am willing to bet you any amount of money, wiseguy, I'm very serious about this, that a single wire coil placed on the JLN hotplate will start to melt, while the Tesla serial bifilar pancake coil transfers nearly all of the hotplate eddy current inductively without gaining in heat rise. Now you can put up or shut up!

                   You're telling me that if I plug the Tesla Pancake coil into a 120 volt A.C. wall outlet that it will catch on fire too. I already tried that, so maybe you're right about something!
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: MileHigh on December 20, 2013, 06:23:45 AM
Conrad and Synchro1:

I caught up on the thread discussion and there are a lot of misconceptions.  This posting is not about the misconceptions, it's about your test setup and test plan.

The "synchro coil" test involves a vertically spinning radially magnetized magnet and a "synchro coil" as the external pickup coil in the "neutral zone."  The "synchro coil" has a stack of radially magnetized cylindrical magnets inside it.

From what I saw from reading the thread I did not see much about how you want to test this setup.  Of course I saw the FWBR and cap circuit and load resistor to measure the output.  Conrad will not be working on the bench until the new year but perhaps he will read and contribute to the thread.

So my question to both of you is what do you plan on doing for testing?  This is something  that normally is left to the experimenter to do.  Often they simply make a clip with some tests and then the clip is discussed afterwards.  I am requesting that you discuss the testing in the tread before you make a clip.  Please let me know what your approximate test plan is.

Thanks,

MileHigh
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: synchro1 on December 20, 2013, 05:30:50 PM
@Milehigh,

My initial approach involved looping output back to source to accomplish a self runner and demonstrate the postulated overunity of the "Synchro Coil". Coradelektro is in charge of his experiment. The initial test merely involves the proof of concept of the output coil as I understand. You and TK mastermined a novel circuit on this thread, and I propose a provisional truce on the acrimonious "Neutral self inductance" issue related to the Tesla series bifilar coil.  
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: conradelektro on December 20, 2013, 06:22:58 PM
Conrad and Synchro1:

So my question to both of you is what do you plan on doing for testing?  This is something  that normally is left to the experimenter to do.  Often they simply make a clip with some tests and then the clip is discussed afterwards.  I am requesting that you discuss the testing in the tread before you make a clip.  Please let me know what your approximate test plan is.

Thanks,

MileHigh

@MileHigh: First, I am not claiming anything. I am just willing to do some tests. Thank you for taking an interest and I appreciate very much all advice you are willing to give. I am not an electronics specialist, I just like to build strange things, but my talents and my knowledge are limited.

I am intrigued by synchro1's claims and I am willing to spend some time on that. But I have no special relationship with synchro1 and if there is something to his ideas I give him full credit. All is his intellectual property, mine is just some non profit interest in strange claims. I think that synchro1 and I live on different continents and can not do anything together in reality besides exchanging ideas in this thread or by PM.

I can sit down at my computer during the holidays every now and then, but the "lab" is closed, so to speak.

Planned first test (please look at the attached drawing):

1) The magnet on the vertical axis will be driven by the depicted drive circuit. The power requirements of the drive circuit are known (approximately). The input Voltage from a laboratory power supply can be varied to achieve different turn speeds and different power demands (see the power requirement list on the drawing).

2) The "synchro coil" (only the empty bobbin case is available at the moment, the stack of ring magnets for the core is also available) will be placed by hand near the spinning magnet. Various positions can be tested by positioning the "synchro coil" by hand slowly nearer and farer from the spinning magnet.

3) The output of the synchro coil will be measure with the depicted "rectifier circuit" (scope or digital voltmeter). This should give some indication whether the output is in any way unexpected or strange (very high at a certain position of the synchro coil). It will be checked whether the synchro coil causes a strong reduction of the turn speed of the spinning magnet (may be at a certain distance the breaking effect will be stronger or weaker than expected).

I think that a video would not be of much help initially. Reporting my observations should be enough to get a first impression. I will do all tests suggested by others, as long as they are not too complicated and time consuming. All questions, comments and suggestions are welcome. I can also do videos in case there are interesting effects.

Much later, after some simple initial tests, I can try a loop back. But that will only make sense after we discover a unexpected high output of the "synchro coil".

Greetings, Conrad
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: MileHigh on December 21, 2013, 06:28:19 AM
Synchro1:

Attempting to loop is bypassing some more basic steps that should be done fist.

You probably saw where I said that magnets don't affect coils because they don't produce changing magnetic fields.  So if Conrad does some tests he could check for that.

Conrad:

Some suggestions:

Keep in mind you are checking a "new coil" configuration.  So the logical thing to do is to compare it with an air core coil and a coil with a normal unmagnetized ferromagnetic core.  If you don't have a ferromagnetic core you can use nails of course.

We know that the higher the permeability of the core the more magnetic flux will flow through it.  You know the relative permeability of air is one, and for your ferromagnetic core it's say greater than 500.  What about the stacked magnets?  Well in the case of the stacked magnets the magnetic domains are already "busy" and you assume that the relative permeability is quite low.  So before even making the measurements the presumption is that the possible output power will increase as you go from air core to the synchro core to the regular ferromagnetic core.

You notice the strategy is to compare something new and different with some other things that are similar.  When you do listening tests with audio speakers at a Big Box electronics store you switch back and forth between two sets of speakers.  They call that "A-B comparison testing."  So the same concept applies here.

MileHigh
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: MileHigh on December 21, 2013, 06:52:55 AM
Conrad:

For the FWBR output circuit there are technical issues for why it is less than perfect for this test.  It's a whole other discussion and if you want to know why I can explain in another posting.  So in addition to that test let me discuss another way of doing it for your consideration.

For starters, the basic idea is just to use a single resistor and not use an FWBR at all.  Then you simply look at the waveform on your scope and if your scope can measure true RMS voltage then you get an output power readout.  Or you can use a true-RMS multimeter.

An issue is the choice of the value of the load resistor.  This is very important because the choice of load resistor directly affects the output power going into the load resistor.

If you measure the resistance of your coil, and then use the same resistance value for the load resistor, then you will dissipate the maximum power in the load.  Note that the same amount of resistive power is being burned off in the coil itself.  So the "true" power output is arguably the coil resistive power plus the load resistor power.  When you measure one you know the value of the other.

This is actually the heart of your experiment:  You try air core, synchro core, and regular core for different values of load resistor.  You make your input power measurement going to the pulse motor and your output power measurement going into the load resistor or the (load resistor + the coil resistance) and compare.

You know that with a regular ferromagnetic core and using a load resistor that has the same resistance as your coil resistance, you should be extracting the maximum power from the spinning rotor.

Let's look at that from the point of view of the spinning rotor.   When the rotor sees this "maximum output power" coil configuration approaching it, it will experience the strongest Lenz drag possible.  There is a chance the power drain will overcome your pulse motor circuit and slow the rotor down a lot.  In most experiments the load resistor is too high in value and very little power is transferred into the load.  What you are trying to do when you chance the value of the load resistor is to make an impedance match between the spinning rotor magnet and the pickup coil.  Understanding the concept of impedance matching is of prime importance for understanding electronic and mechanical and other types of circuits.

So this is a study of different pickup coil configurations and how they output power into different values of load resistor.

Anyway, those are my suggestions for your consideration.

MileHigh
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: synchro1 on December 21, 2013, 03:58:34 PM
To Whom It May Concern:

"Be it known that I, Daniel McFarland Cook, of Mansfield, in the county of Richland and State of Ohio, have invented an Electro-Magnetic Battery, of which the following is a specification: My invention relates to the combination of two or more simple or compound helices and iron cores or "MAGNETS" in such a manner as to produce a constant electric current without the aid of a galvanic battery".


Below are pictures of the Cook battery with iron cores. The "Synchro coil" is basically just a simple modified version of Cook's invention with a 1:1 instead of 32:16 wire gauge bifiilar. The radial magnetized rings were initially chosen for the 'Synchro coil" core merely because they were available. The "Synchro coil" will generate a small amount of current spontaneously. It's interesting to note, that Cook used a hairpin bifilar tank wrap, called a "compound helice" similar to Tesla's pancake coil, twenty three years before Tesla patented his Pancake! Here's a link to the full patent:


http://my.voyager.net/~jrrandall/CookCoil.htm (http://my.voyager.net/~jrrandall/CookCoil.htm)


The unique feature of this kind of output coil is that all the power is generated from within the output coil itself! The "Flux field" of the magnet rotor excites the coil's magnet core, but the "Synchro coil's" magnet core generates the output power not the magnet rotor.  
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: synchro1 on December 21, 2013, 10:39:15 PM

Here's a video by Tinselkoala, demonstrating that the inductance and magnetic field of a hairpin spool coil are zero. He then goes on to measure the same bifilar spool connected in series, measures inductance and calls this series bifilar spool a "True Tesla Coil" when Tesla's "Zero inductance coil" was patented as a flat coil, not a spool coil!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OcFySCAxLzs (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OcFySCAxLzs)

Quote from Allcanadian:

"I was looking at tesla's patent for his bifilar coil a long time ago, and it's interesting to note that tesla's bifilar coil is "flat", and only works as tesla described when it is wound "flat" with no core. I built tesla's coil and put it on my scope and you should have seen the frequency hash this thing develops, it is nothing like the normal bifilar coil everyone is building. Tesla stated as well that a ferromagnetic core only dampens oscillations, If you want to see some weird shit try (not) building tesla's coil the way his patent states it should be built".


I think it would help to experiment with many different kinds of output windings on the "Synchro coil". The current series bifilar type worked fine for me, but I never tried anything else. Something different could work better!

Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: synchro1 on December 22, 2013, 12:13:54 AM

@Tinselkoala,

"Magnetoresistance
is the property of a material to change the value of its electrical resistance (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrical_resistance) when an external magnetic field (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnetic_field) is applied to it".

The electrical resistance in the copper wire material of the magnet core coil is changed when the external field of the magnets is applied to the wire. This is a different measure but related to self inductance. I used the term "Reluctance" not resistance "to change in current direction", as a measure of the magnet core's influence on the electrical resistance in the coil wire.

The point here as I understand it, relates to the series bifilar spool's neutrality to magnet strength effecting the electrical resistance in the copper wire. This characteristic of the series bifilar connection was learned by me from engineering text, not dreamed up. This non-effect was never laboratory tested by me but something I believe to be true  as a consequence of many hours of experimentaion.  One would have to measure the resistance of the "Synchro coil" wire with and without the magnets present to confirm the proposition. This amounts to a pretty simple test, and Conradelektro should easily be able to conduct it with his removable bobbin magnet core and a multimeter.
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: TinselKoala on December 22, 2013, 01:09:37 AM
@synchro:
You really shouldn't misrepresent my videos. As I recall, around the time of that video you (I believe, perhaps it was someone else) were posting links to a page that spoke of a cylindrical coil with the Tesla bifilar connection and made incorrect claims about its energy storage, etc. I happened to have a coil with that cylindrical winding configuration lying around so I used it for the demonstration. I have always made the point in my postings that the patent 512,340 refers to a flat coil, precisely wound so that windings are parallel in the precise order listed in the patent, in order to take advantage of the increased interturn capacitance in the way that Tesla intended in the patent. The cylindrical coil used in the video preserves that property and is covered, IIRC, as a variant in the patent or in subsequent claims and usages.

Tesla never claimed it was a "zero inductance coil"!! Those are your words and indicate the depths of your misconceptions!

Quote
This characteristic of the series bifilar connection was learned by me from engineering text, not dreamed up.

Can you give a reference to the engineering text where you learned about the difference in magnetoresistance of the two windings? I'd like to see the exact explanation in the text. I think that you are misinterpreting "reluctance", "resistance", "magnetoresistance", and "inductance", because what you seem to be saying is contradicted by experiments that anyone can do, as I showed in the video you linked.

The magnetoresistance effect in copper is tiny at normal temperatures and normal magnetic field strengths.
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: TinselKoala on December 22, 2013, 01:22:31 AM
@Tinselkoala,


                   I am willing to bet you any amount of money, wiseguy, I'm very serious about this, that a single wire coil placed on the JLN hotplate will start to melt, while the Tesla serial bifilar pancake coil transfers nearly all of the hotplate eddy current inductively without gaining in heat rise. Now you can put up or shut up!
But that's not what you claimed at first. The single winding coil will need extra external capacitors in order to attain the proper total impedance for efficient power transfer, where the TBC will not: that is the whole point of the patented winding. And it's not "eddy current" that is being inductively transferred. Let's not forget, please, that I was building and demonstrating inductive power transfer systems quite a bit before JLN started playing with his inductive hotplates and reporting false overunity measurements from them.
Why would I want to make any kind of "bet" with someone who keeps moving the goalposts and who makes up their own meanings for words?

Quote
                   You're telling me that if I plug the Tesla Pancake coil into a 120 volt A.C. wall outlet that it will catch on fire too. I already tried that, so maybe you're right about something!

I'm telling you that your original claim is incorrect. If you have the right number of turns in your 120 VAC TBC you can do it safely, but that wasn't the issue in your original claim, which was, I believe, about resistance.
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: synchro1 on December 22, 2013, 01:42:59 AM
@Tinselkoala,


                   I understand mightily why you would a need a capacitor to reach the same resonant frequency with the single wrap coil. I understand about the resonant winding feature for the pancake!  Milehigh trashed me out about these points on the "Electromagnet" thread. Plus extra magnetic field per watt has been tested and proved over on energetic forum by compass needle at an additional 75%.


                    Your non- zero self inductance measure on the series bifilar spool was completely fraudulent and misleading in your hairpin comparison video.


                   The other point is, I already made the Ohmic resistance measurements on the magnet core series spool bifilar and tested no change in resistance. That's why it's the wrap of choice.
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: MileHigh on December 22, 2013, 04:37:07 AM
Synchro1:

I still hold my view that the series bifilar coil is much ado about nothing.

Take the example of TK's clip.  If he had a second linear-wound coil made with the same wire and the same number of turns then the inductance meter would show the same reading.  So that means you are left with the minuscule capacitance in he series bifilar coil to show a "difference."

So imagine you have the two coils as per TK's clip, one regular and one series bifilar with the same build and materials, etc.  Run those two coils through a series of tests, LC resonance, self resonance, series choke, pulse response and related L/R time constant and you will be very hard pressed to see any significant differences at all.  At least that is what I believe when I crunch the two coil configurations in my head.  For the series bifilar I crunch a measurable inductance interacting with a minuscule and nearly insignificant capacitance and that's what I get.  The minuscule capacitance is simply blown away by the effects due to the inductance.  Sort of makes sense, don't you think?

Unfortunately I am not set up to do any testing.  Until I see someone do those tests it's all just talk and speculation on both sides.  However, I have explained my rationale for my statements in detail in the past.

Suppose you do the A-B comparison test and see nothing remarkable at all, the coils look and act almost the same.  So then what are your thoughts?

Then you could extend the tests to a pancake series bifilar coil, the "true Tesla coil."  Will you see significant differences from what you see above?  My guess is you will see some frequency response differences, but in the overall scheme of things they won't really and truly mean much.

I am just giving you a simple, rational analysis as I see it.  Others may have differing opinions.  Someone can run some good tests if they want to and that would answer a lot of questions.

Your far out claims about the series bifilar coil are still far out.  To put it in context, the "wondrous properties" of the series bifilar coil as it is interpreted around here are never discussed in the real world of electronics and engineering.  The concept doesn't even exist.

MileHigh
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: synchro1 on December 22, 2013, 08:01:08 PM

@Tinselkoala,

"Tesla explains that a standard coil of 1000 turns with a potential of 100 volts across it will have a difference of .1 volt between turns. A similar bifilar coil will have a potential of 50 volts between turns. In that the stored energy is a function of the square of the voltages, the energy in the bifilar will be 502/.12 = 2500/.01 = 250,000 times greater than the standard coil!"


How can anyone generate the same kind of potential between the windings of a single wire coil with the addition of a capacitor? You can't duplicate the performance of the Tesla pancake that way. A single wire coil doctored by you can never work as well without the potential of the Tesla pancake on JLN's hotplate. I still challenge you to a bet. 


Coil type D below, a series bifilar, produces more magnetisem:  
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: conradelektro on December 22, 2013, 09:46:48 PM
Looking at the drawing synchro1 posted (the Tesla coils type A to D) I wonder if one can measure the values given there with a good LCR meter?

Santa Clause will bring me this LCR meter http://www.bkprecision.com/downloads/datasheets/87xB_datasheet.pdf

So, my question: Once I wound the "synchro coil" I will be able to hook it up to form any of the four types A to D from the drawing synchro1 posted.

Is it possible to measure directly L (Henry) R (Ohm) and C (Farad) of this coil with my new BK-879B (with no additional electronics and without destroying it)?

And if I wind a similar coil (same size, about the same number of windings) with just one wire, I think I can lay to rest the whole theoretical discussion in what way bifilar coils are better than ordinary coils.

Please give me advice. I only believe in measurements, words are just words.

Greetings, Conrad
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: gyulasun on December 23, 2013, 12:07:11 AM
Hi Conrad,

Very nice and useful-looking LCR meter indeed, its switchable test frequencies are an advantage.
Trying to answer the questions,

1) yes, your meter is supposed to measure the 'coil' types A to D, mainly for their DC resistance and inductance.
2) yes, your meter should measure directly the L and R  values of a coil, no need for additional electronics and you cannot distroy it .

Notice:  the C capacitance of  'coil' types A and B and D cannot be measured with this meter, and not with many other LCR meter, it needs a different measuring method than these meters use.  I think, you can measure the capacitance between the two bifilar coils in coil type C but of course in this case there is no L meter possibility because the meter will sense 'coil' type C as a capacitor.

There is a 35 minute demo video on your meter: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H4TP0i917Ro (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H4TP0i917Ro) 

Merry Xmas to you all!

Gyula
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: conradelektro on December 23, 2013, 01:07:44 PM
@Gyula: thank you for the explanation, that helps.

I searched a bit for "parasitic capacitance of a coil" and found this measurement method:

http://forum.allaboutcircuits.com/showpost.php?p=50941&postcount=6

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parasitic_capacitance

I have a signal generator, so in principle I can do it. But the bifilar coil next to the spinning magnet will only receive rather low frequencies (20 Hz = 1200 rpm to 100 Hz = 6000 rpm) and the parasitic capacitance could be ignored.

All these people talking and writing about Tesla coils (pancake, bifilar, ..), have they ever done some real measurements?

Greetings, Conrad
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: gyulasun on December 23, 2013, 04:12:31 PM
Hi Conrad,

Yes, what you found in the link as a measurement method is known as a double frequency method to get a coil's self capacitance. I agree that at the very low frequencies involved in connection with the rotating magnets, the physical sizes and number of turns used for the bifilar coils define coil capacitances which still very low values to give resonance with the coil's inductance at or near the frequencies what the rotating speed of the magnets represent, unfortunately.     

Here is a calculator for the double frequency measurement method, to ease the calculating process, hopefully it would give correct results versus your own calculations as per the formula included in your link (I did not check it): http://www.qsl.net/in3otd/inductors.html (http://www.qsl.net/in3otd/inductors.html)

Notice: In the link you found, the scope probe connected in parallel with the coil to be measured adds its own probe capacitance to the coil (it actually reduces the original coil resonance what the parasitic capacitance would originally define) and it is suggested that you substract the probe capacitance from the calculated value to get the actual parasitic cap for the coil.
It is okay that you will be able to measure your probe's input capacitance by your LCR meter and then substract it but perhaps you may wish to use a simply pick-up coil of a few turns to couple to your coil to be measured and watch the resonant voltage amplitudes on your scope. This way the unwanted extra capacitance from the measurement setup can be kept at a minimum (first you use a strong close coupling to ease the seaching for the resonance then you place further away the pick-up coil when you found resonance).
Here is a link http://www.g3ynh.info/zdocs/magnetics/appendix/self_res/photo/18t_Xe_1389_srf.jpg (http://www.g3ynh.info/zdocs/magnetics/appendix/self_res/photo/18t_Xe_1389_srf.jpg) where a few turn pick-up coil is shown, albeit it is just used as a transmitting loop to excite the multiturn solenoid, it does work as a receiver antenna loop of course, the diameter of such pick-up loops could approach that of the coils to be measured and the number of turns (say 3 to 5) are not critical. You can connect the output of this pick-up coil directly to your scope input via a short (say 50cm long) piece of coax cable or say via a 1:1 scope probe. (the picture above belongs to this website: http://www.g3ynh.info/zdocs/magnetics/appendix/self_res/gallery.html (http://www.g3ynh.info/zdocs/magnetics/appendix/self_res/gallery.html) )

Your BK-879B meter is able to measure Z impedance too, perhaps this feature (together with the selectable measurement frequency feature) opens some other ways to estimate parasitic capacitance of coils, just a food for thought for others reading this too.

Greetings
Gyula
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: synchro1 on December 23, 2013, 07:09:18 PM

@Tinselkoala and Milehigh,


Quote from Dave at Yahoo:

"The bifilar does not magnify the current.  The current follows Ohm's law and nothing special happens with it.  

I worked out the math a little more and I was wrong about increased current causing increased magnetic flux.  The magnetic flux will tend to decrease with the potential.  What actually increases is the magnetic field strength.  The magnetic field strength has a different set of dimensions than magnetic flux or magnetic field.  I'm not yet certain how to visualize magnetic field strength, but I will give it more attention.  

I'm aware of Tesla's claim about the increase in energy.  Energy is often thought of as the ability to do work.  And indeed, bifilar windings are used at metal scrap yards as electromagnets since they do more work per kwh.  But the work is in grabbing more metal per pickup.  It is questionable whether there is free energy here of just better efficiency.  At this time, I think the latter.

I've read accounts where guys found other geometrical considerations that further increase the magnetic field strength per pound of wire and for the same kwh.  But they didn't share the method.

Increased magnetic field strength occurs even though the magnetic flux likely decreases.  So it would take a different method than usual to get any kickback effect, which in turn would produce more potential.  There's room for experimentation here.  It won't be the usual transformer through turns ratio.  The inductance also decreases substantially in a bifilar coil.  You've got to stay focused on magnetic field strength if you're going to capitalize on any unique properties.

BTW, I found that flat spiral bifilars are pretty strong.  I haven't compared the flat spiral bifilar to a solenoid bifilar on a pound per pound of wire basis, though.  That's something I need to do.  That might be one of the tricks used by the guys at scrap yards for winding their coils".
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: synchro1 on December 23, 2013, 08:48:33 PM
I think it's time to redirect everyone's attention to the topic of this thread; I witnessed unexplained hyper acceleration of a diametric magnet rotor up to 50k rpm's with a reed switch attached to the face of a thread spool series bifilar coil.

I choose to use this bifilar wrap for specific reasons as an output coil too, after spending sufficient time researching it's characteristics. Dave in the quote above states that the magnetic flux decreases while the magnetic field strength increases in the coil. Magnetic flux is measured in Webers and field strength in Teslas.

I noticed that while under power, the diametric flux field from the spinning rotor increases, while the attraction to the magnet rotor decreases. Dave says the same kind of inverse relationship holds true for the Tesla bifilar under power! These are very important inter relationships, and have a bearing on both the unexplained acceleration and output effects this thread currently has under testing and exploration.

The power portion of my precision ceramic bearing alternator ran cost free and cold, as I maintained , with no input power whatsoever detectable by me on my amp meter at top end! The output portion of the alternator use's  the same bifilar coil and exhibits the performance I already detailed in the thread. let me restate that it's the same bifilar coil's awesome performance on the power side that I initiated this thread to help explain.

Re-quote from Dave about the Tesla series bifilar:

"The magnetic flux will tend to decrease with the potential.  What actually increases is the magnetic field strength".

The inverse flux field to magnetic strength relationship of this coil is a critical factor in understanding it's anomalous effects. This is what I have been able to deduce so far: The Tesla series bifilar power coil  looses magnetic flux and gains magnetic strength as it powers up, while the diametric magnet rotor apparently works just the opposite, loosing magnetic strength and increasing it's magnetic flux field as it accelerates.


Following the assumption that the Tesla series bifilar is somehow producing extra magnetic strength per watt, one can envision why the magnet rotor would begin to run away under it's own steam. The magnet flux from the accelerating rotor begins feeding the magnet strength of the coil at a greater then 1:1 ratio. This causes the series bifilar coil to manufacture more magnetic field strength then the magnet rotor had standing still. Up around 25 or 30 thousand r.p.m, the accrued force takes over and accelerates the magnet rotor with hyper velocity. It takes a few minutes to build up to 25k, then the rotor hits 50k in a matter of seconds. Physical constraints limit the upward speed.


Tinselkoala questioned me about my ratio comparison of negative micro henries and decreased inductance in Tesla's serial bifilar coil. I hope this will help him better understand the dynamics behind my description


     
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: synchro1 on December 24, 2013, 01:12:14 AM
@Tinselkoala,

You produced a video comparing the flat spiiral coil to the the Tesla Pancake. Both coils were attached to the same plexiglass frame. The experiment we need for you to perform is to determine which coil has more magnetic field strength by picking up iron filings on each end with same power, and weighing them to see if they pick up the same amount of filings in weight or if one side picks up more then the other. Would you be willing to perform this experiment for us please?
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: MileHigh on December 24, 2013, 01:23:54 AM
Synchro1:

It's the holiday season so it's taking my postings a while to appear.  The "hyper acceleration" is explainable if you are good with a set of scope probes.  Constructing a timing diagram would be a big help also.

Quote
"The magnetic flux will tend to decrease with the potential.  What actually increases is the magnetic field strength".

That's pretty much a nonsensical statement that you quoted.  There is a "coil understanding gap" somewhat akin to a generation gap.  I don't have a solution for that.

You should try to grock this:  A coil is like a flywheel where the voltage corresponds to the torque and the current corresponds to the angular velocity.  The size of the coil is like the size of the flywheel.

In most cases for a coil you actually don't even have to think about the magnetic field which may be a shocker.  The only things that you have to worry about are the inductance, the voltage, and the current.  When is the last time you saw somebody worried about the electric field inside a capacitor?

You can try to grock this:   Think of a big fire hose that is formed into what looks like a big electrical coil that's 10 feet in diameter and has 200 turns.  Imagine a high rate of water flow through the hose.  So you are looking at what effectively is a big cylinder of circulating (looks like rotating) water.  It might be a ton of water in motion that is inside the coiled hose.  Can you envision what would happen if you suddenly closed the exit valve of the hose?  Can you see a resemblance to a coil there?  Hint:  Water flow rate is like current and water pressure is like voltage.

MileHigh
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: MileHigh on December 24, 2013, 04:00:26 AM
Synchro1:

Following up on your comments about magnetic field strength of a coil, it's all in the ampere-turns.  It was already discussed a long time ago.  A series bifilar and a regular coil with the same number of turns will generate approximately the same strength of magnetic field.  You can find it all proved in books and online and in YouTube clips.

Here is the real thing!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4c6fRmyh4q8 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4c6fRmyh4q8)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZBXVuHpUucc (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZBXVuHpUucc)

Note the formula for the magnetic field strength of a coil is B = u0ni,  where n is the turn density per unit length of coil.

So the real way to get a stronger magnetic field from a coil is to increase the turn density and push higher current through it.  The way to do that is to make a coil that has many layers of turns one on top of the other.  You can buy a roll of speaker wire and you have an instant coil with many layers of turns one on top of the other.  If you buy a large spool of a small gauge wire and then put a good ferromagnetic core in the center you will have a very strong electromagnet.  You just have to increase the voltage to the coil to overcome the DC resistance of the wire.  You also have to monitor the temperature of a coil like that if you push it.  The inner layers of the coil are in their own semi isolated thermal environment and could get really really hot.

You note it has nothing to do with the regular or series bifilar coil configuration.  It's all in the turn density and the current flow.

MileHigh
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: synchro1 on December 24, 2013, 02:34:57 PM
@Tinselkoala,

Here's an excellent video on the "Law of Laplace":

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wvScSTbly1c&list=PL62433DB6D0A09218&index=17 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wvScSTbly1c&list=PL62433DB6D0A09218&index=17)

This video demonstrates the effect of passing current through a magnetic field on a conductor. The Tesla bifilar neutralizes this effect; Hence there is "Zero reluctance to change in current direction", unlike the single conductor in this video. The strict engineering terms you requested of me can be simply stated as; "The Tesla series bifilar neutralizes Laplace's law"! The coil measures no inverse Henries.

                          The units for magnetic reluctance are inverse Henries, H–1.
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: synchro1 on December 24, 2013, 03:46:09 PM
Can anyone please try and explain to me why no one else on this web site can get this simple experiment to work right?

http://www.tesla-coil-builder.com/bifilar_electromagnet.htm (http://www.tesla-coil-builder.com/bifilar_electromagnet.htm)

Have another look at this video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9mxtwS2OsaA (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9mxtwS2OsaA)


I challenge anyone to competently demonstrate the presence of inverse henries or the absence of increased magnetic field strength in the Tesla series bifilar!
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: synchro1 on December 24, 2013, 06:04:43 PM
All Tesla's laboratory notes along with his original patents were confiscated by the United States Government, after Tesla's death. They were either censored or redacted then re-released to the public. Tesla's patent for his "Coil for Electromagnets" was one of the patents heavily censored and reworded. This coil is and always has been overunity the entire time. That's why no where in this patent for an electromagnet can anyone find any reference to electromagnetism. However, this patent was already purchased by Westinghouse, and appeared in scrap yards where the secret was closely guarded under watchful eyes! That's why there is hardly anything to be found about those kinds of electromagnets in the historical archives.
   
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: conradelektro on December 25, 2013, 05:51:12 PM
Tesla's patent for his "Coil for Electromagnets" was one of the patents heavily censored and reworded. This coil is and always has been overunity the entire time. That's why no where in this patent for an electromagnet can anyone find any reference to electromagnetism.

I challenge anyone to competently demonstrate the presence of inverse henries or the absence of increased magnetic field strength in the Tesla series bifilar!

@Synchro1:

Bifilar Tesla coil is OU: How would you prove (by doing what kind of measurements) that a "bifilar Tesla coil" is "over unity"?

Bifilar Tesla coil and magnetism: Once I am back home near my lab I will try to measure the "increased magnetic field strength" of a bifilar winding over a soft iron core (nail) and over a Ferrite core (I have some 10 mm diameter Ferrite rods). I think I have all the materials needed and will do it more or less like in the video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9mxtwS2OsaA you mentioned, but with a laboratory power supply instead of a battery and an Ampere-meter to see the real DC power demand in both cases (100 windings mono-filar versus 50 windings bifilar). I have very good scales, (electronic letter scales) which can weigh 1/10 of a gram, to measure the pick up weight by both "electromagnets".

Synchro1 you are making some pretty strong statements. It would be better to back up these opinions by real experiments than by words. There is a lot of Tesla-lore and Tesla-hype out there repeated over and over again by people who never produce anything tangible. So, pointing to questionable sources it not of much help.

Let's do real experiments instead of throwing words around.

Greetings, Conrad
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: synchro1 on December 25, 2013, 06:22:48 PM
@Conradelektro,

Quote from Conradelektro:

"I will try to measure the "increased magnetic fieldstrength" of a bifilar winding over a soft iron core (nail) and over a Ferrite core (I have some 10 mm diameter Ferrite rods). I think I have all the materials needed and will do it more or less like in the video".


You may as well forget about even trying this experiment if you're unwilling to adhere strictly to the test spefications. I made that nail experiment video and got it to work. I'm all for testing. There were other failed tests made with "zinc screws" for magnet cores. It's important that one follow the instructions to get the results. Tesla-Coil-Builder calls specifically for two 16 penny soft iron nails, not just any kind of iron nails you may find lying around in your junk drawer! This may take a trip to the hardware store, and you should test the nails with a magnet to make sure they're the proper material. He says nothing anywhere about using 10 mm diameter Ferrite rods for coil cores. You would need a complex formula to determine the amount of wire to wrap them with!

I built and tested dozens of these Tesla bifilar coils. I do more then just throw words around. I achieved the overunity results I'm claiming. The nail test alone is two times overunity. Good luck, and Merry Christmas!
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: synchro1 on December 25, 2013, 10:50:20 PM
@Conradelektro,


I feel the experiment on increased magnetic field strength per watt should be conducted with the coreless spiral pancake as patented by Tesla. Two coils of the same diameter, one single wire and the other serial bifilar. Your signal generator and micro scale would give the test a high degree of scientific validity. I suggest measuring iron filings by weight.


The problem of substituting a high permeability core of low remanence for the soft iron core is very complex, and out of order for a coil that was patented as a flat spiral pancake with no core in the first place. Comparing the different types of pancakes would be a very worthwhile undertaking, and put this issue to rest once and for all.
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: synchro1 on December 26, 2013, 01:38:59 AM
Here's a couple of snapshots: 


On the top, the materials for the Cook battery: Conduit, 16 and 32 gauge wire and welding rod cores.

Next, one of the 4 coupled 1/2" X 1" diametric tube magnets stacked for the magnet core and their bifilar output coil.
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: conradelektro on December 26, 2013, 11:28:49 AM
@synchro1: in one of your posts you cited  this page http://my.voyager.net/~jrrandall/CookCoil.htm . On the bottom of the page one finds a update http://my.voyager.net/~jrrandall/CookUpDate.htm which says:

Oct 2001 -
 - I can NOT make this device work. That does not mean that it never worked.
 - The device, AS I BUILT IT, does not work.
 - I can not say whether it might work if built to different dimensions or specifications.

In which way do you try to overcome the shortcomings of the 2001 Cook Coil design?

Are the four "tube magnets" on the photo axially or diametrically magnetized? If they are diametrically magnetized you should rather build a magnet spinner to prove the OU effect of the "synchro coil".

Greetings, Conrad
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: conradelektro on December 26, 2013, 01:49:03 PM
@Conradelektro,


I feel the experiment on increased magnetic field strength per watt should be conducted with the coreless spiral pancake as patented by Tesla. Two coils of the same diameter, one single wire and the other serial bifilar. Your signal generator and micro scale would give the test a high degree of scientific validity. I suggest measuring iron filings by weight.


The problem of substituting a high permeability core of low remanence for the soft iron core is very complex, and out of order for a coil that was patented as a flat spiral pancake with no core in the first place. Comparing the different types of pancakes would be a very worthwhile undertaking, and put this issue to rest once and for all.

Good idea to try flat pancake coils without core (one mono-filar the other bifilar), I want them anyway for tests with the magnet spinner.

I was thinking about the "nail core", which introduces many unknown factors, e.g. the iron used for manufacturing the nails. The core-less pancake coils are much more well defined.

Winding the pancake coils between two sheets of thin plexi glass should be simple. The plexi glass should not influence the magnetic field much?

Greetings, Conrad
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: synchro1 on December 26, 2013, 02:57:09 PM
@Conradelektro,

                        Those are diametric magnets in the picture above. After you wind your diametric magnets for the "Synchro Coil" try connecting a fast switching Shottky diode in series between the leads of the bifilar coil and your 10uF capacitor. Place multi meter electrodes on the capacitor poles, and you'll will find that the diametric magnet core coil actually begins to generate power spontaneously, up to a ceiling charge, then stops. This is what Cook maintains his battery does.

                         Cook requires that the ferrite cores be "Charged". One apparently has to start it by running current from a battery backwards through the coils to magnetize the cores. Rather then deal with this problem, I just substituted those powerful diametric neodymium's to run tests on, and voila, I got results!  I discovered that the Tesla series bifilar solenoid will generate spontaneous power while standing still with a stack of diametric ring magnets positioned in the core. You will be able to measure this overunity effect for yourself from your finished "Synchro Coil". Prepare to be amazed!    

I made a video demonstrating this effect with a quadfilar wired like the Cook battery:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9XMfCpUzq_g (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9XMfCpUzq_g)

P.S. Please do not attempt to replicate this Intercom coil experiment. Several people tried and failed and I
grew exasperated trying to describe how I had it wired. I am currently confused.
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: conradelektro on December 27, 2013, 01:30:24 PM
..........
You probably saw where I said that magnets don't affect coils because they don't produce changing magnetic fields.  So if Conrad does some tests he could check for that.
..........
So the logical thing to do is to compare it with an air core coil and a coil with a normal unmagnetized ferromagnetic core.  If you don't have a ferromagnetic core you can use nails of course.
..........
So before even making the measurements the presumption is that the possible output power will increase as you go from air core to the synchro core to the regular ferromagnetic core.
...........
MileHigh
........
For starters, the basic idea is just to use a single resistor and not use an FWBR at all.  Then you simply look at the waveform on your scope and if your scope can measure true RMS voltage then you get an output power readout.  Or you can use a true-RMS multimeter.
........
If you measure the resistance of your coil, and then use the same resistance value for the load resistor, then you will dissipate the maximum power in the load.  Note that the same amount of resistive power is being burned off in the coil itself.  So the "true" power output is arguably the coil resistive power plus the load resistor power.  When you measure one you know the value of the other.
........
This is actually the heart of your experiment:  You try air core, synchro core, and regular core for different values of load resistor.  You make your input power measurement going to the pulse motor and your output power measurement going into the load resistor or the (load resistor + the coil resistance) and compare.
........
You know that with a regular ferromagnetic core and using a load resistor that has the same resistance as your coil resistance, you should be extracting the maximum power from the spinning rotor.
........
Understanding the concept of impedance matching is of prime importance for understanding electronic and mechanical and other types of circuits.
........
So this is a study of different pickup coil configurations and how they output power into different values of load resistor.
.............
MileHigh

@MileHigh: Thank you for taking the time to explain a good measurement technique. This helps a lot and I will try to do the measurement exactly as you suggest.

My scope should be able to measure true RMS over the load resistor.

I just wonder whether the bifilar coil will have a different DC resistance with an air core, a Ferrite core and a magnet stack core? In any case the coil will have a rather low DC resistance around a few Ohm (because I will only wind about 500 to 1000 turns of wire on that coil)? Does the type of core have an influence on direct current going through the coil? Probably a silly question.

It looks like I can do some work in my lab on the 29th and 30th of December.

Greetings, Conrad
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: MileHigh on December 27, 2013, 03:22:38 PM
Conrad:

If you make a regular coil with say 500 turns, then using the same wire you can make a series bifilar coil that is 250 turns + 250 turns.  So you have two coils with the same physical dimensions and the same total number of turns.  The wire length will be almost the same so they will have almost the same DC resistance.  The coils will measure the same DC resistance independent of what material you put in the core or if it is an air core.

When you work with the two coil configurations, I am assuming that you will test them as pick-up coils and try different load resistors and cores, etc.  Like I stated before, you can expect that you will not find any significant differences between the regular coil and the series bifilar coil when you do these types of comparative tests.

You can look at the core as an energy storing device.  The core stores magnetic energy that is proportional to its relative permeability.  So we know the relative permeability of air is one.  A regular ferromagnetic core might have a relative permeability of 800.  The magnet stack core is anybody's guess.  I will take a guess that it will be about five.

The more energy that can be stored in the core the higher the measured inductance of the coil + core combination.  It's easy to do pulse experiments where you measure the amount of energy that can be stored in the coil + core combination at different current levels.  When you make those energy measurements you are also measuring the inductance.  So you can use this measurement technique as a way of double-checking what a digital inductance meter measures.

Good luck on your experiments.

MileHigh
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: synchro1 on December 27, 2013, 08:36:49 PM
Conrad:

If you make a regular coil with say 500 turns, then using the same wire you can make a series bifilar coil that is 250 turns + 250 turns.  So you have two coils with the same physical dimensions and the same total number of turns.  The wire length will be almost the same so they will have almost the same DC resistance.  The coils will measure the same DC resistance independent of what material you put in the core or if it is an air core.

When you work with the two coil configurations, I am assuming that you will test them as pick-up coils and try different load resistors and cores, etc.  Like I stated before, you can expect that you will not find any significant differences between the regular coil and the series bifilar coil when you do these types of comparative tests.

You can look at the core as an energy storing device.  The core stores magnetic energy that is proportional to its relative permeability.  So we know the relative permeability of air is one.  A regular ferromagnetic core might have a relative permeability of 800.  The magnet stack core is anybody's guess.  I will take a guess that it will be about five.

The more energy that can be stored in the core the higher the measured inductance of the coil + core combination.  It's easy to do pulse experiments where you measure the amount of energy that can be stored in the coil + core combination at different current levels.  When you make those energy measurements you are also measuring the inductance.  So you can use this measurement technique as a way of double-checking what a digital inductance meter measures.

Good luck on your experiments.

MileHigh

@Milehigh,

The "Synchro Coil" is a "Satellite Coil" not a pickup coil, and does not have the same physical dimensions as a pickup coil. You're outlining a completely different test from the one we started out with. What are you trying to pull here? The test you devised here is to compare a single wire pickup coil to a series bifilar pickup coil of identical dimensions! This is completely irelevent to the test of the magnet core coil! The magnet core coil is designed to generate power from within, not from the spinning rotor. Try and remain relevant while contributing to this thread.
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: conradelektro on December 27, 2013, 10:10:28 PM
@Milehigh,

The "Synchro Coil" is not a pickup coil, and does not have the same physical dimensions as a pickup coil. You're outlining a completely different test from the one we started out with. What are you trying to pull here? The test you devised here is to compare a single wire pickup coil to a series bifilar pickup coil of identical dimensions! This is completely irelevent to the test of the magnet core coil! The magnet core coil is designed to generate power from within, not from the spinning rotor. Try and remain relevant while contributing to this thread.

I am very grateful for MileHigh's contribution which is highly relevant for the test of the "synchro coil".

If the "synchro coil" shows any unexpected behavior it will be even better visible with the measurement method (only a resistor which matches the DC resistance of the coil) proposed by MileHigh because one would get the most energy out of it.

I will also make a test with a full bridge rectifier and a capacitor but first all parameters have to be established (DC resistance of the coil; the inductance of the coil with different cores; true RMS Voltage over a matched resistor with different cores at different distances of the coil from the rotor; slowing down of the rotor when the coil, shortened over the matched resistor, is placed at different distances from the rotor).

Synchro1, you should not piss off people like MileHigh who try to help by proposing a meaningful test procedure. Only meaningful and well executed tests can show the truth behind interesting observations.

The aim is to measure any unexpected behavior of the "series bifilar magnet core synchro coil". A big part of it is to compare the behavior of the bifilar wound coil with different cores (air core, Ferrite core and "tube magnet core"). And then one has to wind a similar coil with just one wire to establish any possible differences. That will give some insight.

According to Synchro1's opinion the "synchro coil" should "generate power from within, not from the spinning rotor". And I will try to shed light on that with my tests. But first all parameters have to be established as MileHigh says. Otherwise we just fool around. We can only proceed from the known towards the unknown in an orderly way.

Greetings, Conrad
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: synchro1 on December 27, 2013, 10:16:24 PM
@Conradelektro,

Milehigh is nothing more then a "Gadfly"! He's taking the thread off on another tangent. Now you have an additional nine coils to wrap and test. Good luck.
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: MileHigh on December 27, 2013, 10:16:49 PM
Suynchro1:

Conrad said the following:

Quote
Thank you for taking an interest and I appreciate very much all advice you are willing to give.

In this thread testing the synchro coil as a pick-up coil became an active subject.  Then you got into your series bifilar discussion with a whole bunch of unsubstantiated claims.  Happily Conrad will be doing some testing and at least he stated that he will pursue trying different cores and load resistors like I suggested.  If you have an inquiring and scientific mind, this is a golden opportunity to test the series bifilar coil also as a pick-up coil and compare it to an equivalent regular coil.  That is at Conrad's discretion.

Quote
The magnet core coil is designed to generate power from within, not from the spinning rotor.

That's another unsubstantiated claim and science says that will not happen.  It's up to Conrad if he wants to run any tests along those lines.  I hope he does do some tests and that he does some of the tests that you are suggesting.  (As long as the tests that you are suggesting make sense.)  Then you can comment on the results - your claims vs. what Conrad sees on the bench.

Quoting you:

Quote
I feel the experiment on increased magnetic field strength per watt should be conducted with the coreless spiral pancake as patented by Tesla.

The above statement does not make any sense.  Notice that nobody reading the thread tried to correct you?  How can you (as in forum members) progress if you don't try to correct each other and get yourselves collectively up the learning curve?  I will leave it to you to figure out what's wrong with your statement or you and your peers on the forum together to try to figure out what is wrong with the statement.  If nobody discusses it then nobody wins!

MileHigh
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: conradelektro on December 27, 2013, 10:31:24 PM
@Conradelektro,

Milehigh is nothing more then a "Gadfly"! He's taking the thread off on another tangent. Now you have    nine coils to wrap and test. Good luck.

I do not have to wind nine coils, just two coils, a bifilar and a monofilar (with the same length of wire and the same size), because I can remove or change the core (the "stack of magnets" and the "Ferrite core" which have the same 10 mm diameter).

I am pretty sure that name calling leads nowhere. People tell me that I am very patient, but I have limits too.

Greetings, Conrad
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: synchro1 on December 27, 2013, 10:55:06 PM
@Conradelectro,


You have no idea what MH put us through on the "Electromagnet" thread. His current tests are merely designed to shore up his mistaken point of view about the invalidity of Tesla's bifilar coil. Solenoid pickup coils like the ones he's suggested you test have an ideal width to length ratio that is far different from the diminished face and length of the "Synchro satellite Coil". 


You offered to test the four bifilar configurations on the "Synchro bobbin" and a monifilar for five plus two spiral pancakes for magnetic strength, for seven , now Milehigh has two additional pickup coils planned with pickup face to length ratios that are different from the low face magnet core. Take a closer look at what he's asking of you.
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: conradelektro on December 27, 2013, 11:12:17 PM
@Conradelectro,
You offered to test the four bifilar configurations on the "Synchro bobbin" and a monifilar for five plus two spiral pancakes for magnetic strength, for seven , now Milehigh has two additional pickup coils planned with pickup face to length ratios that are different from the low face magnet core. Take a closer look at what he's asking of you.

Synchro1, I will start testing and we will see where it leads us. Let's stay calm. I hate a war of words. We need a war of measurements and a war of real tests.

My first test will be with the "low face magnet core".

Greetings, Conrad
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: synchro1 on December 27, 2013, 11:47:51 PM
@Conradelektro,


That's what everyone's fraught with anticipation to finally see. I did have one last question for you; What gauge magnet wire do you plan to wrap the magnet bobbin with?
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: synchro1 on December 28, 2013, 07:27:10 AM
The "Synchro Coil" is a "flux field generator" not an output coil. The permeability of the magnet core is zero, not above ferrite because it's completely saturated and can not take on any further magnetizem. That's why it's worthless as an output coil core. This coil is not an output coil!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dr85aHLmB1g (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dr85aHLmB1g)


Output coils will not work from behind potted plants like Lidmotor's Maggie! Remove the tiny neo sphere from inside Maggie's core, and the LED'S go out! That's because Maggie is not an output coil, but a flux field generator just like the synchro coil. 
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: synchro1 on December 28, 2013, 07:34:46 AM



Quoting you:



"QuoteI feel the experiment on increased magnetic field strength per watt should be conducted with the coreless spiral pancake as patented by Tesla".


The above statement does not make any sense.  Notice that nobody reading the thread tried to correct you?  How can you (as in forum members) progress if you don't try to correct each other and get yourselves collectively up the learning curve?  I will leave it to you to figure out what's wrong with your statement or you and your peers on the forum together to try to figure out what is wrong with the statement.  If nobody discusses it then nobody wins!

MileHigh


Milehigh has done himself a great disservice here by insulting everyone on this forum. I am personally  sick and tired of his outrageous pride and arrogance. I will seek to stricken him from commenting on this thread altogether if he doesn't bring his conduct into line.  



Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: MileHigh on December 28, 2013, 08:08:41 AM
Synchro1:

If you were a keener you would try to figure out where you were wrong instead of just being a sourpuss.  There is no such thing as "magnetic field strength per watt" and this is forum and a thread where we discuss real electronics.  So now that you know where the problem is, that's half the battle.  You have an opportunity to pull yourself up by your own bootstraps if you want to.

It's time to just sit tight and let Conrad do his thing.  We don't need the histrionics.

MileHigh
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: synchro1 on December 28, 2013, 08:16:22 AM
Skycollection's version:
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: conradelektro on December 28, 2013, 03:11:31 PM
@Conradelektro,

That's what everyone's fraught with anticipation to finally see. I did have one last question for you; What gauge magnet wire do you plan to wrap the magnet bobbin with?

The "synchro coil" will be wound with 31 AWG magnet wire (0.22 mm wire diameter). See the attached drawing.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_wire_gauge#Tables_of_AWG_wire_sizes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_wire_gauge)

Synchro1, how many layers of wire do you suggest? Is the wire gauge about right?

Each layer will have about 120 to 130 wire turns (60 to 65 bifilar turns).

I can wind 5 or 10 layers, or more. With 10 layers the coil winding will be only 2 to 3 mm thick.

I hope that everybody is patient, the year end holiday season it is bad time of the year for doing experiments. It would be nice if others could do the experiment as well.

I also hope that MileHigh and other experts forgive Synchro1 his bad way of writing and stay in this thread. Expertise is very much needed to see through all the bold claims and to come to an understanding of the actual facts. One needs a thick skin in the OU forums.

Greetings, Conrad
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: synchro1 on December 28, 2013, 04:34:06 PM
@Conradelektro,


                        That wire looks perfect! The coil bobbin is much longer then the ordinary output coil, so you're wraps will be greater then normal judged from thickness. 1000 to 1200 turns is plenty and you can expect some nice hi-voltage.

                         It's important to look at Lidmotor's "Flux field generator" video. He removes the tiny spinning magnet sphere from "Maggie" and the LED'S go out, because at that distance the coil does not receive any cross cutting induction from the magnet rotor, nor does it create any "Lenz drag". Lidmotor then places the output coil closer to the spinning rotor, and demonstrates the "induction effect" at that reduced distance. The "Synchro Coil" operates on the same principle. The power is generated by the "Flux field perturbations" not the rotor induction. The coil optimally is positioned just "outside the induction range".

               Think how utterly inane it would be to suggest testing "Lidmotor's "Maggie" with different core materials other then the neo magnet sphere when the coil is seated too far from the power rotor to be effected by the rotor induction. The same holds true for the "Synchro Coil".

Just look at this malarky from MH:

Synchro's concise explanation,

"The magnet core coil is designed to generate power from within, not from the spinning rotor".

Wise guy know it all response from MH:

"That's another unsubstantiated claim and science says that will not happen".  

This "Synchro magnet core flux field generator coil" is hundreds of times overunity, and has nothing to do with the ordinary induction coil.
                     
                           
                   

                             
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: synchro1 on December 28, 2013, 08:29:05 PM
What would happen if you removed the radial magnet stack and replaced it with a ferrite core outside the induction zone? Nothing, the same as an air core, zero output! The flux field is rotating independently of the the magnet rotor outside the induction zone on the quantum plane! Removing the magnet stack and pushing the coil into the induction zone would be the equivalent of using a Rolex watch for a lead sinker.


This magnet core flux field generator coil is what I would call a "Radial Ring Maggie". Axial magnetized rings or tubes will not work anywhere near as well because the fields will not intersect the coil wraps on the perpendicular.
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: conradelektro on December 29, 2013, 04:24:33 PM
Unfortunately the "synchro coil" does not show any unexpected effects.

Finally I could test my replication of a "synchro coil".

Coil parameters:

- length 30 mm, core diameter 10 mm, about 500 turns bifilar with 0.22 mm magnet wire (AWG 31)

- DC resistance: about 28 Ohm each wire, wires in series about 56 Ohm (therefore a 59 Ohm shunt was used to measure output with a scope, true RMS)

- air core inductance L = 32 mH (8 mH each wire)

- magnet stack core inductance L = 34 mH (8,6 mH each wire)

The "synchro coil" behaves about in the same way with air core or with "magnet stack core". This is consistent with the observation that its inductance is about the same with air core or with "magnet stack core".

The output of the "synchro coil" is about the same with air core or with "magnet stack core". The output is very low because the rotor has little torque and the coil was placed at a distance to the rotor which does not slow down the rotor much. At this distance the out put is in the order of 400 µW. Further away from the rotor the output drops rapidly and closer to the rotor the rotor stops soon.

Please see the attached photos and drawings.

Synchro1, it seems that you have a lot of misconceptions about this type of coil. I could not see any "neutral zone" around the rotor (spinning magnet) by slowly moving the coil closer to and farer from the rotor. The output of the coil (air core or magnet core) decreases in a regular way when moved away from the rotor (as one would expect).

Greetings, Conrad
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: synchro1 on December 29, 2013, 04:30:46 PM
@Conradelektro,


                        Try doubling your rotor strength, or striping half the wire off that coil. You're picking up too much induction! I advised you not to let coil face exceed three eighths of an inch.


                         Try just one wrap of wire for me. Just one layer, and compare the results to give it a fair chance. It's functioning as an induction coil. Keep the principles in mind. The coil is way over wound. Strip the wire down to the very bare minimum and retry it. Don't give up too soon.


                          Take a look at the size speed and magnet strength of Lidmotor's neo sphere spinner with the two smaller neo's attached.  Compare the flux he's generating to the size of his tiny satillite neo inside "Maggie" satellite. Your rotor is very slow and weak compared to his. Your flux field is very deficient compared to his, and completely overwhelmed by the amount of wire you have in close proximity.


                          You would need to spin a two inch diameter magnet at high rpm to deliver a comparative field. Have you ever tried spinning a powerful high speed bearinglees neodymium sphere like Lidmotor's? This is the kind of rotor I got my results with. You're going to have to jetisen nearly all you coil wire to get positive results with that weak and slow a rotor.  
 
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: conradelektro on December 29, 2013, 04:46:27 PM
@Conradelektro,


                        Try doubling your rotor strength, or striping half the wire off that coil. You're picking up too much induction! I advised you not to let coil face exceed three eighths of an inch.


                         Try just one wrap of wire for me. Just one layer, and compare the results.

I will do more tests by reducing the number of turns. But that has to wait a week or so.

The only way forward I see is that synchro1 builds a coil himself and shows the world how it works.

Greetings, Conrad
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: synchro1 on December 29, 2013, 05:15:23 PM
@Conradelektro,


                        Thanks for the effort! You're an astute experimenter and I have great respect for your care and precision. I really have no way to gauge the critical criteria of your experiment without access to your test lab. I can see now that the proportions of your rotor strength and speed are way below the ones we use in the bearingless Bedini experiments. Your flux field is way too weak compared to the ones we produce with over twenty five thousand rpm's with rotors of many times the strength. I am sure you can get closer to the forecasted results if you downsize the coil wraps dramatically. The considerable coil inductance is overwhelming the subtle flutter effect from the core magnets. Nice try!


                        There are other experimenters who follow this thread who have the kind of powerful magnet sphere rotors Lidmotor uses. It's very simple to spin one up bearingless, and build the kind of coil I outlined. Good luck to the believers who care to put additional effort into this project.  
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: MileHigh on December 29, 2013, 07:02:22 PM
Conrad:

My compliments on your experimental setup, it's very neat and clean.  I have a few comments.

Note the two inductance measurements are nearly the same.  So that shows that the relative permeability of the magnet stack is close to one.

You are correct that there is no neutral zone and your tests confirmed that.  The simple application of common sense states that the further you move the pick-up coil away from the spinning magnet the lower the output from the coil. 

It looks like you adjusted the two different test setups by moving the coils closer or further away from the spinning magnet so you got the same RMS output voltage on your scope.   I am assuming that you also waited a few seconds to let the rotor speed stabilize.

Note that for the air core test the spinning magnet is rotating at 26.4 Hz to generate 152 mV RMS into the load resistor.  And for the stacked magnet core the magnet has to rotate at 29.2 Hz to generate the same voltage.  You also mentioned that the stacked magnet core was slightly further away from the spinning magnet.  Note there are two variables that changed at the same time so it's hard to be certain of what is exactly going on with just one test.  However, it looks like at first glance that the air core performs better as a pick-up coil compared to the stacked magnet core because its output voltage would be higher if the spinning magnet was also spinning at 29.2 Hz.

With respect to reducing the number of turns in the pick-up coil like Synchro said, that's not going to do much if you change the impedance matching resistor.  So if your current coil is 56 ohms and your new coil with less turns is say 20 ohms, then if you change the load resistor to a 20-ohm resistor you will get approximately the same results.

There is a misconception that if you add turns to a pick-up coil it becomes a more powerful coil with a more powerful output.  Or you can allege it is better at picking up energy from external magnetic induction.  This is not true.  If the geometry of the coil remains the same (but you change the number of turns) and you change the load resistance to match the wire resistance of the new coil with less or more turns then it will perform approximately the same way.  When you have a new coil with less turns driving a lower value of load resistance the output power measurement will be the same.  The measured voltage will be lower but the current will be higher and the power measurement will be the same.

How much or how little energy a pick-up coil can output is primarily a function of the geometry of the coil, not the number of turns.  The main factor is the cross-sectional area of the coil that interacts with the external changing magnetic flux that determines the power output.

MileHigh
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: MileHigh on December 29, 2013, 07:21:43 PM
Synchro1:

Quote
Take a look at the size speed and magnet strength of Lidmotor's neo sphere spinner with the two smaller neo's attached.  Compare the flux he's generating to the size of his tiny satillite neo inside "Maggie" satellite. Your rotor is very slow and weak compared to his. Your flux field is very deficient compared to his, and completely overwhelmed by the amount of wire you have in close proximity.

What you see in Lidmotor's clip is an example of impedance matching.  When the rotor is spinning and Maggie is far away and doesn't have the small neo magnet in "her mouth" then the rotor "sees" a high impedance "landscape."  Since the landscape is high impedance the rotor spins at high speed because there is no external load.  The Maggie coil doesn't generate enough EMF to switch on the LEDs so it looks like a dead open-circuit coil.

When you put the small neo magnet in the "mouth" of Maggie everything changes.  The magnetic field from the spinning magnet and the magnetic field from the small neo interact and start to mesh like gears.  On top of that the neo magnet itself is sitting inside the Maggie coil and that's attached to an LED load.  So the spinning neo magnet starts driving the LED load and it itself is being driven from the big spinning magnet.

What this all means from the perspective of the big spinning magnet is that the impedance of the "landscape" has changed from high impedance to a lower impedance.  That facilitates more transfer of power out from the spinning magnet and into the "load."  As the large magnet spins it feels some Lenz drag due to the meshed gears between the large magnet and the small neo magnet.

So that's the explanation for Maggie.   Maggie makes a small change to the impedance of the landscape as seen by the large spinning rotor magnet.  The impedance change is in the direction of the matched impedance and therefore more power is drawn by the "landscape" "load."

MileHigh
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: conradelektro on December 29, 2013, 07:26:43 PM
"Satellite Coil" slows down the rotor in a similar way than a generator coil and produces about the same output.

I did a similar experiment than Lidmotor http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dr85aHLmB1g , who has a little ball magnet spinning inside a coil (Maggie) at quite a distance from a spinning big ball magnet (which is driven by some drive circuit with considerable power input).

I used my vertical magnet spinner and my "synchro coil". I removed the magnet stack core from the "synchro coil" and put a 6 mm ball magnet in the air core.

At about 100 mm distance from the spinning rotor the 6 mm ball magnet inside the air core of the "synchro coil" starts to spin and the "synchro coil" produces an output.

And if I move the "synchro coil" with the spinning ball magnet inside closer to the rotor (to about a 80 mm distance) I can produce the same output as in my former test with the "synchro coil" http://www.overunity.com/13852/self-accelerating-reed-switch-magnet-spinner/msg380869/#msg380869.

An if I move this "Satellite Coil" even closer the rotor slows down till it stops.

Interesting enough the output of this "Satellite coil" (with the spinning ball magnet inside the air core) behaves essentially like in my former test, just that I have to do the test at a distance of 80 mm to 100 mm from the rotor (instead of a distance of about 20 mm).

My point, a "Satellite Coil" slows the rotor down just like any other generator coil. But only with a low torque and low power demand magnet spinner like my vertical model this is clearly visible.

People spinning their rotor with several Watts (instead of 15 mW to 25 mW) do not see this slow down, because it is only very small. But if they would measure the output of their "Satellite Coils" carefully, they would see its very small output in comparison to the power input to the rotor.

Sorry, I did not make any photos yet. More tests to come.

Greetings, Conrad
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: synchro1 on December 29, 2013, 08:59:03 PM
@Conradelektro,


                        You're inside the induction zone with the coil. Your coil is generating power without the spinning sphere inside at the distance of 100mm where the sphere starts to spin, right? The spinning ball is not slowing the rotor down as you push the coil in towards the rotor, the coil is responsible for that. You maintain that the "Synchro coil" generates the same amount of power with an air core as it does with the magnet core in your first experiment.

                         Lidmotor's flux field is powerful enough to allow him to spin his Maggie sphere entirely free of any rotor induction. Try and determine if the coil is generating any power on it's own without the spinning sphere inside at the same distance like the coil did in your first experiment without the magnet core installed!


Quote from Conradelektro:

"And if I move the "synchro coil" with the spinning ball magnet inside closer to the rotor (to about a 80 mm distance) I can produce the same output as in my former test with the "synchro coil"

The point is you're producing the same output without the magnet core at that distance, so  it's fair to infer you're inside the induction zone with coil and spinning sphere, not outside like Lidmotor with his magnified flux field.
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: conradelektro on December 29, 2013, 09:30:22 PM
@Conradelektro,

                        You're inside the induction zone with the coil. Your coil is generating power without the spinning sphere inside at the distance of 100mm where the sphere starts to spin, right? The spinning ball is not slowing the rotor down as you push the coil in towards the rotor, the coil is responsible for that. Try Turning the coil sideways  and repeat the spin experiment, see if that makes a difference.

                         Lidmotor's flux field is powerful enough to allow him to spin his Maggie sphere entirely free of any rotor induction. Try and determine if the coil is generating any power on it's own without the spinning sphere inside at the same distance!

The "synchro coil" with air core (no ball magnet inside) is producing 18 mV over the 59 Ohm load at a distance of about 80 mm from the rotor.

Turning the "Satellite Coil" sideways does not change much. (It is always difficult to make the ball magnet spin in an uniform way, which depends on friction, one has to try different tilt angles for the "Satellite coil" till the ball magnet spins nicely.)

Attached see a photo of the latest experiment.

Synchro1, the "induction zone" as you call it does extend to infinity in theory. It just becomes more and more difficult to measure the tiny output at greater distances from the rotor. I can not measure the output at distances greater than about 120 mm because my scope can only measure down to 1 mV.

You have to do careful experiments to see that some of your assumptions are faulty.

According to my unimportant opinion and based on my clumsy personal experiments (which could be wrong, but are likely good) the following assumptions are faulty:

- a bifilar coil has magical properties in comparison to a mono-filar coil
- a magnet core has magical properties in comparison to any other core
- a coil with a magnet inside produces power (without moving the magnet, I just did a quick test and will examine that more deeply)
- the "induction zone" ends some where (it only becomes less and less powerful with distance)
- a "satellite Coil" does not slow down the rotor (it is just a coil with a different core which allows greater distances to the rotor, but it causes mechanical problems because the ball magnet has a high friction).

Greetings, Conrad
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: synchro1 on December 29, 2013, 09:38:50 PM
@Conradelektro,


Debunking Quote:


"a bifilar coil has magical properties in comparison to a mono-filar coil".


Where is there anything in your experiment so far far to compare the bifilar and monofilar coil properties?
You're racing ahead of yourself with such rapidity you're betraying your own prejudice!


You just turned yourself into a clown. You can figure out some new direction for this thread because you've heard the last from me.
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: conradelektro on December 29, 2013, 09:51:03 PM
@Conradelektro,

Debunking Quote:

"a bifilar coil has magical properties in comparison to a mono-filar coil".

Where is there anything in your experiment so far far to compare the bifilar and monofilar coil properties?
You're racing ahead of yourself with such rapidity you're betraying your own prejudice!

I am not here to debunk anybody. I am here to do experiments. I am not here to discuss theories endlessly.

I know that my experiments can not disprove anything they can only show measurement results of a particular set up. (But that is the case with all experiments. One can always claim that the "true result" needs an other set up.)

Everybody has to draw his own conclusions. Some conclusions are straight forward, other conclusions might be misguided.

I plan to do more experiments with my magnet spinners and will report the results. But it will take time.

Synchro1, you are entitled to hold whatever opinion you like. It just would be nice if you could support your opinion with real experiments and careful measurements. It would make it more interesting.

Greetings, Conrad
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: synchro1 on December 29, 2013, 10:02:32 PM
@Conradelektro,


What's your objective in the first place? You built some very primitive pulse motors, what are up to anyway?
Can you tell us where you feel you're headed? Your test model so far is nothing to write home about!
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: conradelektro on December 29, 2013, 10:26:24 PM
@Conradelektro,

What's your objective in the first place? You built some very primitive pulse motors, what are up to anyway?
Can you tell us where you feel you're headed? Your test model so far is nothing to write home about!

My objective is to enjoy myself. Others do paintings, sculptures or poems. I do little electronics experiments. I do not have to prove anything, I am not selling anything, I just have fun.

My builds may be primitive but they show how it is.

My objective with the "primitive pulse motors" is to try out special generator coils (like the "synchro coil") which according to some have magical properties (like no Lenz drag). I try to see the magical properties. If I do not see magical properties with my builds I report it. If I saw magical properties I would also report it (but so far no luck).

The next type of generator coil I try will be pan cake coils (bifilar and monofilar). I am also thinking about the "nail experiment" (bifilar has higher magnetic field strength than monofilar as some say).

The point of my primitive pulse motors is that the input power is low and exactly known. It is also known (up to a few hundred rpm) how fast the rotor spins with a given power input (from 1200 rpm to 2400 rpm the results can be reproduced by varying the supply Voltage from 10 Volt to 15 Volt). The resulting low torque and the known "no drag rpm figures" reveal immediately if a generator coil has "little Lenz drag" or just the "normal Lenz drag". The "synchro coil" seems to have "normal Lenz drag" and "normal output". (I know, my "synchro coil replication" is wrongly built according to synchro1).

So, I like to write home about the well defined parameters of my primitive pulse motors. And if the parameters are well known one might find and would be able to prove "magical properties". But usually magic only appears if the parameters are not known or wrongly measured.

I always hope to find some magical properties but magic seems to be more difficult than some believe.

Greetings, Conrad
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: synchro1 on December 30, 2013, 01:09:00 AM
@Conradelektro,


I feel you threw a monkey wrench into the experiment and that no one has anything legitimate to gain from your jaundiced perspective. You're not the first flake to waffle under pressure from the "Trolls". I suggest you start your own thread, because I see nothing pertinent in any of your goals. I personally am through cooperating with you here because I can't see how your objectives relate to the thread topic. My advice to you is to try and consolidate your awareness and focus on a specific area then originate a new thread topic, because wide ranging interests such as paintings, sculptures and poetry seems not to be particularly germane to the area of "Self acceleration". Your pursuits have turned too eclectic. I believe it would help for you to create a new "Rubric" for your clutter box of experiments.


Best regards,


Synchro
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: synchro1 on December 30, 2013, 01:50:08 PM
Here's a video that's germane to the thread. Ibpointless2 demonstrates how bringing a magnet into rotor proximity accelerates the rotor speed and lowers amp draw. It's just a rough prototype, but he makes his point:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AN37ruFKrhs (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AN37ruFKrhs)

Deepcut was involved in a magnet core output coil experiment with me on the Thane Heins "Lenz Delay" thread, then suddenly and inexplicably disappeared in the middle of it. Anyone ever heard from him? It's no wonder why experimenters grow paranoid and are willing to take a dive for the Geo Resource power elite!
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: conradelektro on December 30, 2013, 02:12:06 PM
A measurement with a little pick up coil. The pick up coil is the same type as drive coil and trigger coil. (Taken out of a 24V relay.)

The measurement is consistent with the "synchro coil" measurements. The output is about 600 µW at the same conditions. The "synchro coil" had an output of about 400 µW under these condition.

Conditions: 13 V (~25 mW) power supplied to drive the rotor, the pick up coil slows down the rotor from ~2000 rpm to ~1200 rpm.

Now what does this say: any magic coil has to produce more than 600µW under the same conditions in order to be magic.

Greetings, Conrad
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: synchro1 on December 30, 2013, 02:22:58 PM

Here's a video from Igor Moroz of an aircore reed switch bearingless sphere that is very simple to build, loops BEMF to source and generates sufficient torque and flux field to get positive results:  

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TGHAMMEm8lo (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TGHAMMEm8lo)
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: synchro1 on December 30, 2013, 02:32:30 PM
@Conradelektro,


Here's another video from Igor that I posted earlier on this thread. He runs a magnet attached to a ferrite rod into the empty core of a trifilar Bedini coil. Power, trigger and output. The pole of the core magnet is opposed to the poles of his six magnet rotor. You can clearly see him demonstrate the magic of increased output, decreased input coupled with rotor acceleration. Your test motor is a weak piece of crap! That's why you're getting opposite results! Take a closer look again at Igor's one and a half inch neodymium sphere reed switch rotor above.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mzNjAs3-9LA (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mzNjAs3-9LA)
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: synchro1 on December 30, 2013, 03:11:23 PM
A simple platform to fairly retest the radial magnet stack coil core, would consist of a bifilar reed switch aircore coil, with a large bearingless neo sphere spinner, one coil for output the other for power. One could run the radial stack into the empty bifilar coil core and test for increased output and rotor speed. This is a very simple setup and would generate a thousand times the torque and flux field of Conradelekto's "Mickey Mouse" setup! Conradelektro's darning needle point would grow red hot and melt if he tried to achieve the rotational speeds of the bearingless neo sphere spinner! Piece of crap!


Everyone can see Igor get the effect with a monopole rotor and axial magnet core. It's not too far to go to imagine the effect's similar with a diametric rotor and radial magnet core! Conradelektro is just acting like some kind of child! He's supposed to be stripping wire off the coil and running the magnet stack in and out of the core. I only had one layer of wire on my original! He's really acting lame. Conradelektro's proving the magnet slows the rotor down! He can't even accomplish the simple speed up Ibpointless2 achieves with his plastic lid rotor! This guy is completely incompetent, and all his results so far are bogus. He could have played Gene Hackman's role in the Hoosiers!

@Conradelektro,


Why not power a large neodymium sphere up with a reed switch in series with the bifilar coil you wraped, like in Igor's schematic with a diode and capacitor. Divide the wraps, one for power the other output, then try ruuning the radial magnet core stack into the bore hole and try and measure the rotor speed and output?


Here's a video on magnetic vortex. The last few seconds are particularly informative:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YrR03K4nfY8 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YrR03K4nfY8)
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: conradelektro on December 30, 2013, 05:20:39 PM
@MileHigh: thanks for your comments, it helps me to understand better what I am trying to do.

Your posts are coming through almost a day late, so I did the "Maggie type coil test" before seeing your comment about Lidmotor's Maggie "Satellite Coil". And my test seems to confirm the better "impedance matching" when inserting a spinning ball magnet in the air core (which is at a large distance from the rotor).

What I am trying to do:

- At the beginning of a coil test I let the rotor speed up to about 2000 rpm by supplying 13 Volt to the drive circuit. From former measurements I know that the drive circuit consumes about 25 mW (about 2 mA at 13 Volt). I let the rotor spin for a minute to settle the rpm at around 2000 rpm.

- Then I move the "pick up coil under test" to such a distance to the rotor that the rpm drops to around 1200 rpm (the shunt resistor is connected). This needs some doing and patience, but eventually I find just the right distance and the rpm settles to around 1200 rpm (20 Hz to 23 Hz).

- The measurement with the scope is then done over the shunt parallel to the coil, the shunt resistor matches the DC resistance of the "pick up coil under test" (the impedance match error is kept within 10%). The scope probe is AC coupled. (The scope shows "true RMS".)

This "measurement protocol" is designed to always have about the same conditions during all tests. Which allows to roughly compare the "output capability" of each "pick up coil under test".

So far I tested:

- my "synchro coil replication" with air core, magnet stack core and spinning ball magnet core

- a coil from a 24 V relay (the same as I use as drive coil and trigger coil) with air core and iron core

The results (under the above measurement protocol) are all in the same order of magnitude, which is around 300µW to 600µW output from the "pick up coil under test".

I guess that one has to allow at least for a measurement error of 50% or even 100%, but the order of magnitude of the output measurement should be correct and seems to be consistent.


I will move on to pan cake coils.

MileHigh, do you have any suggestions for the geometry of the pan cake coil (I will try a monofilar and a bifilar)?

- Should the pan cake coil have a large diameter? (Its thickness will be the diameter of the wire.)

- I guess that the largest practical coil diameter for my test set up is about 100 mm, because the rotor is about 50 mm above the "floor"? (But I could move the spinning magnet higher up, the axis is very long.)

- Should I use thicker or thinner wire for the pan cake coils?

My argument:

A magic coil should at least show an output of several mW under my "measurement protocol". (Because the "non magic coils" show consistently an output of less than 1 mW.) OU would happen at an output of more than 25 mW (because I need 25 mW to drive the rotor).

Of course one could spin a bigger magnet very fast, but that would need several Watt and make all measurements just more complicated and less transparent. I also refuse to be near a magnet spinning at 24000 rpm.

I know that I am not showing anything new, but it should shed light on claims being made in this thread. An experiment (however simple) has more weight than mere words (however forcefully put forward).

Greetings, Conrad
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: MileHigh on December 30, 2013, 08:25:08 PM
Synchro1:

You need to calm down and just go with the flow.  In the first Igor clip you linked to, there is no BEMF looping back to the source.  The BEMF discharges though the diode.  In the second Igor clip you can see the current consumption increase on the power supply when he showed increased output when he inserts the rod into the coil.   In all three clips nothing special is happening but you have to make proper measurements to understand what is going on.  The clip that you linked to about the alleged magnetic vortex is pure bunk.  There is no Bloch wall at the center of a standard bar magnet like they allege in the clip.  All of the magnetic domains inside a bar magnet are lined up so the bar magnet looks like a single large uniform magnetic domain.  Seriously, that clip is pure junk and I know that unfortunately many people have this mistaken belief.

Conrad:

You made a comment about your measurement error.  It is probably more like less than 1%.  It could be way less than that.  The RMS voltage calculation on the scope is averaging out thousands of samples, and that makes the measurement more accurate.  I suggest you check the specifications for your scope for the measurement error.

So far your tests are great.  The one thing that I don't like is the pulse motor to drive the spinning magnet rotor.  It's weak and it slows down and you have little control over it.

Something for your consideration that would cost very little and might even be fun:  Do you have another variable power supply?   If you go into an electronics hobbyist/surplus store they usually have beautiful DC motors of all shapes and sizes.  If you could find a nice decent-sized 12-volt motor (10 cm x 10 cm or perhaps a bit smaller?) that could be used as the drive motor for your spinning magnet rotor.  It might only cost the equivalent of five dollars US.  Then you could connect a variable power supply to it.

The idea is simple:  Test the various coils at different distances and keep the rotor RPM constant.  That way you can do better comparative tests.  Also, with a larger motor running at a higher RPM, you could measure much more output power from the various pick-up coils.

If you have a lot of power being burned off in the pick-up coil load resistor that may slow the DC motor down a bit from the increased Lenz drag.  That's where the variable power supply comes in where you can slightly increase the voltage to the DC drive motor to compensate.

With respect to your test results, everything looks pretty much like you would expect it to look.  And that's a good thing.  Note the relay coil has a larger outer diameter than the other coil setup (I think) and that could explain the higher power output.  Note I mentioned that the geometry of the coil is of prime importance.

Note the whole idea of comparing power in to the pulse motor and power out from the pick-up coil is not relevant at this point.  The input power is much much greater than the output power.  Hence the suggestion to replace the weak pulse motor with a cheap surplus DC motor.

MileHigh
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: synchro1 on December 30, 2013, 09:00:08 PM
@Conradelektro,


Look, it's very unfair of you just to walk off from that "Synchro Coil" experiment after sabotaging the test with way too many windings and all the time I put into explaining how it works. You're just out to make a fool of me and I have a right to be angry with you! The induction from those excessive wraps is generating a locking field and killing the the magnetic oscillation.


Here's what I want you to do: Remove the magnets from the bobbin, then wrap a layer of plastic dielectric tape around them. Then wrap one bifilar layer, connect the near and far end in series, attach the resistors, then play the coil back into the flutter zone you discovered and check the output! The thin layer will reduce the inductance input to practically zero, so anything you get should be from the oscillation alone. This should not have a slowing effect on the rotor. You didn't test that coil, you just failed to get it to work! I feel you owe me and the thread audience at least that much.
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: MileHigh on December 30, 2013, 09:11:58 PM
Conrad:

For the pancake coils, about 10 cm in diameter should be fine.  You can use whatever gauge of wire you want for the pancake coils.  I would recommend that you do a regular and a bifilar coil and use the same wire.  You may want to use a smaller gauge of wire within reason so that you can get more inter-coil capacitance with the bifilar version.  For me that's not really a valid issue because my assumption is that the inter-coil capacitance will be insignificant and will not show any significant effects.  The effects of the capacitance will be so small that in many cases they will not even be measurable.

There is a fair amount of magnetic field self-cancellation in a pancake coil so I would expect that the inductance measurement would be quite low.

This is a typical case were visualization in your mind can be used as a tool.  It's easy to visualize the field of the spinning rotor magnet.  It's easy to imagine how each individual loop of the pancake coil will "see" the changing magnetic flux.  Where it gets complicated in this case is what happens when current starts to flow in the pancake coil and how do you visualize that?   A loop in the middle of the pancake has a relationship with both the smaller loops and the larger loops.  In certain regions there is magnetic field cancellation and in other regions there is magnetic field addition.  The net result is that the pancake coil has a certain inductance value and a certain field pattern.  Thankfully with the scope you can just look at the resultant waveforms and put the complicated pancake coil geometry inside a "black box."

Whatever tests you do with your regular and pancake coils, it's great that you are willing to do comparative tests.  It's really important and it would be good if all experimenters took this approach.  Will you find any differences between a regular pancake coil and a bifilar true-Tesla pancake coil?  I am assuming that you will not see any differences.

MileHigh
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: conradelektro on December 30, 2013, 10:25:40 PM
@Conradelektro,
Here's what I want you to do: Remove the magnets from the bobbin, then wrap a layer of plastic dielectric tape around them. Then wrap one bifilar layer, connect the near and far end in series, attach the resistors, then play the coil back into the flutter zone you discovered and check the output! The thin layer will reduce the inductance input to practically zero, so anything you get should be from the oscillation alone. This should not have a slowing effect on the rotor. You didn't test that coil, you just failed to get it to work! I feel you owe me and the thread audience at least that much.

Synchro1, I will do that test, but it will take some time. I owe nobody nothing, but I hope that you and me will learn something from that "one bifilar layer synchro coil" test.

And I ask you to be more polite. You make very bold assumptions and far reaching statements and then you freak out if they can not be proven or if someone takes the time to explain well proven facts. The accusation that I sabotaged the test is a good example of your questionable way of thinking. You are the one who sabotages himself constantly without realising it.

Stay cool and be patient, I do the tests according to my personal schedule. There is no hurry. And there is no audience who awaits something, you take yourself and the whole discussion far too seriously.

The best thing would be that you do the tests yourself. Nobody will ever be able to do tests to your liking, your assumptions are just too far reaching.

Greetings, Conrad
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: synchro1 on December 31, 2013, 12:36:19 AM
@Conradelektro,

I've done the tests. The Planet is overpopulating while resources diminish. A cesium cloud from the Fukashima Daiichi fission plant in Japan caused 50,000 miscarriages in the State of California alone. You pretend everyone has plenty of time. Time is running out! Carpe Dium! This is very important work for the future of mankind, it dosen't help to trivialize it. You post phoned this experiment long enough. You've been shifting my weight and filling the space in with your pet points of view. This is a ten minuite test. You managed to stretch it out for over a period of two long weeks already. People are getting fed up with your nonchalance. You should initiate your own thread if you're going to drift off with non germane projects.


This thread is about the "pulse width clipping of the Reed switch" attached to the bifilar pulse coil face. There's an inverse power to speed ratio that takes over to spin a powerful rotor for practically nothing. The combination of the fluttering field magnet core output coil, coupled with the very low input puts the entire COP where I said it was. These claims are not exaggerated. Let's see you get some positive results for a change, the chronic cynicism is a drag! I'm supplying hope to people, don't let us down.
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: Magluvin on December 31, 2013, 08:14:23 AM
Hey Conrad n Synchro

These bifilar coils you are testing. After you wind them, do you test them to see what freq they ring at?

Also, what is the rpm of the rotor again?  With the diametric mag, we get 1 AC cycle during one rotation.

I made a trifi coil on a 1 1/2in Ecore. 2 strands are series bifi, and 1 strand is not connected to the others. Each strand is 1.45ohm about 37ft each 26 awg.  My bifi, with core pieces tight together and bound to the bobbin(because it made a difference) rings at about 9600hz.  The capacitance between the 2  bifi strands is 3.5nf. The 3rd maybe affecting this. Whithout the closed core to increase inductance, the freq would be way up. Just a tweak of the core and I get max 10.2khz

What Im thinking is you may need a larger coil, meaning more turns, more capacitance, more inductance to get to the freq of the bifi to get an advantage.


My trifi, when I put a sq wave sig, + to the 3rd open ended lead, and the - of the sig gen to the opposite end of the bifi, the bifi produces output just because of capacitive connection in the transformer windings. But when I adjust the sq wave to 9600hz, my input is 4vpp and my output is 70v on the bifi.  My input doesnt change in or out of the freq, as the input is just charging the 3.5nf capacitance and cant input any more than that.  And the ringing is apparent at the freq even when loaded, as compared to normal transformer induction while in an off resonant/harmonic freq of the bifi. ;)   

So I think the coil or the motor needs to be matched with the other to get proper output from the bifi. Romeros motor had 9 mags per rotation I believe, and running about 1200rpm which is about 10khz. He used cores and a backing plate washer, of which Im absolutely sure could have great influence on freq of the coil. I dont think there will be any advantage unless you run the bifi at its resonant freq.

Romero used 7 strand litz.  In his last comments on hows and whats, he said to find a way to increase capacitance in the coils. And I didnt see any caps on those coils. ;)

Zeropoint132 claimed to use 4000 turns bifi of 32 and 46 awg. Self spinning sphere motor.

Romero didnt have 4000 turns I cant believe. I can only figure that he separated the strands and increased his turns and capacitance. Not sure but thats the only good guess there is. he did say he spent a huge amount of time on the coils. Other than winding them, what more work could there have been? ;)


Bifi coils of small number of turns will ring at very high freq. May be good for a power supply, but dunno about for a motor.  Would say less than 100khz for motor use. Power supplies can be in the 20khz to 500khz range.

Mags
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: Magluvin on December 31, 2013, 08:19:41 AM
Also, I think it may be tuff to make a pancake bifi that will operate in the motors freq range. Were probably talking huge diameter even with fine wire. Tesla said the bifi config can be applied to any style of coils.

Mags
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: conradelektro on December 31, 2013, 10:59:50 AM
@MileHigh: thanks again for your help.

On Thursday I will buy this 12V DC motor:

http://www.conrad.at/ce/de/product/244475/Igarashi-Igarashi-Motor-mit-5teiligem-Anker-12-VDC-Leerlaufdrehzahl-244475?ref=searchDetail (http://www.conrad.at/ce/de/product/244475/Igarashi-Igarashi-Motor-mit-5teiligem-Anker-12-VDC-Leerlaufdrehzahl-244475?ref=searchDetail) (the specifications should be clear even in German)

May be also this one:
http://www.conrad.at/ce/de/product/244478/Motraxx-Motor-mit-5teiligem-Anker-12-VDC-Leerlaufdrehzahl-244478/?ref=detview1&rt=detview1&rb=2

I have a variable DC power supply 1 V - 30 V (3 A max). The above first motor can be driven from 6 V to 24 V (0.35 A), the second one from 10 V to 14 V (0.25 A).

I guess the experiment with various "pick up coils under test" and a rotor (diametrically magnetised big ring magnet or cylinder magnet) driven by the above DC motor should be done like this:

- define a fixed distance of the "pick up coil under test" (its face) from the rotor (e.g. 30 mm)

- define a certain rpm under which the rotor should spin (e.g. 3000 rpm)

- put the  "pick up coil under test" at the defined distance from the rotor and make the rotor turn with the defined rpm by changing input Voltage (with the variable power supply)

- once the defined rpm of the rotor stabilises, measure the output of  the "pick up coil under test" (over a matched shunt, true RMS)

- the output of the  "pick up coil under test" and the Wattage (Volt and Ampere -> Watt) necessary to drive the rotor with the defined rpm gives an indication of the "quality of the pick up coil" (its capability to generate electricity)

- all  "pick up coils under test" which are to be compared have to be driven at the defined distance from the rotor and with the defined rpm of the rotor (and the same rotor)

Everybody interested is invited to refine this "measurement protocol".


@synchro1: The well being of the world depends only in a very very small way on you and on me. So stay calm, there is time. Be good.

Greetings, Conrad
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: conradelektro on December 31, 2013, 01:30:21 PM
Specially for synchro1, some facts about Reed switches. Switching frequencies above 20 Hz will produce unexpected results. Switch time is around 50 ms.

Driving a magnet spinner with a reed switch will be problematic above 1200 rpm (20 Hz).

http://www.meder.com/fileadmin/meder/pdf/en/Technical_Documents/Parameters_of_Reed_Switch.pdf

It is not forbidden to try higher frequency switching with a Reed switch, but the results will be unpredictable. But there could be a conspiracy about 400 Hz switching with a Reed switch (24000 rpm), watch out.

Greetings, Conrad
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: synchro1 on December 31, 2013, 03:50:14 PM
@Conradelektro,


I plan to switch your experimental comments on the Tesla Spiral over to the Tesla's "COIL FOR ELECTROMAGNETS". thread soon, where they belong. Surely you can appreciate why it makes more sense to include your current comments on this specific area into a background content of related charts and findings.


I restored the thread to the roster, and copied Milehigh's latest comment to it. Please direct the remainder of your comments about the Tesla Coil for electromagnets to the newly resurrected thread.


Thank you,


Synchro  


   
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: synchro1 on December 31, 2013, 05:09:57 PM
@Milehigh,

Here's what you have to say:

"In the first Igor clip you linked to, there is no BEMF looping back to the source.  The BEMF discharges though the diode".

Here's what Igor has to say in his Youtube comment:

"Just got another setup with the same idea to capture (utilize) some energy from bemf spikes (which gonna be lost anyway); it's running longer".


Here's a second quote from you:

"In the second Igor clip you can see the current consumption increase on the power supply when he showed increased output when he inserts the rod into the coil".

Here again you apparently see something there that's totally imaginary on your part, that's completely misleading and contrary to the facts represented in the video. Igor clearly states there's increased "Output current", this is over any apparent rise in input. Igor's reporting and demonstrating a gain here!

"I did some tests with bedini setup and found out that similar to TROS it might work as a breaker for magnacoaster circuit, yet, current increased by using a core with a magnet on it with opposite to rotors' magnets pole, in the way the magnacoaster used for increasing voltage AND current"


Your chronic and persistent twisting of the facts is truly revolting. You just flat out pretend Igor's results are fake. You never even conducted so much as one experiment. You're the fake! You remind me of the old Lorilard tobacco institute that maintained cigarette smoke contained vitamins.
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: synchro1 on December 31, 2013, 07:35:48 PM
Folks, take a look at this quote from Conradelektro from earlier in the thread:

"I am interested in this type of coil because I could feel this "rattle" in my fingers (which means "some strong force"), but the rotor did not slow down (the tub magnet has to be at a certain distance from the spinning magnet). That is interestingly strange. Maybe this "vibrating magnetic field" induces more current into the bifilar winding than one would expect. We will see, thank you for disclosing your observations I will try to replicate".

Ask yourselves what Conradelektro did wrong to get the failed results he posted? Practically everything I told him not to! Now he's dropped the "Synchro Coil" project cold!

Quote from Conradelektro:

"I will move on to pancake coils".

Just what went on? Does this failure of Conradelektro's have any connection to Deepcut's completely devestated web archive? Deepcut was in the midst of exactly the same experiment with me when everything of his suddenly and mysteriously grew deeply censored.

It looks to me as though Conradelektro just "Chickened out". Furthermore, we can anticipate any forthcoming results of his to be contaminated by the same brand of cowardice.
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: MileHigh on December 31, 2013, 08:41:31 PM
Conrad:

The two DC motors look fine.  I am assuming that these motors will increase in speed when you increase the voltage.  At the same time the available torque is quite high.  If this is true then my assumption is that in most cases the DC motor will run at a near-constant speed for most of your testing.  Perhaps only when the pick-up coil is very close will you have to slightly increase the voltage.

Note having a nice DC motor will be very handy and you will also be able to use it in all sorts of other projects.

I read your test protocol and it looks fine.  Naturally you are free to do just about anything you want but at the same time you have a "reference spinning magnetic rotor with a fixed (or variable) RPM" that can be used to make any type of A-B comparison testing of two or more coil configurations.  You can still try different distances or RPMs if you want.  With your variable DC power supply and a nice DC motor you can do just about anything you want. That sounds like fun!

Quote
- the output of the  "pick up coil under test" and the Wattage (Volt and Ampere -> Watt) necessary to drive the rotor with the defined rpm gives an indication of the "quality of the pick up coil" (its capability to generate electricity)

You are testing the ability of the pick-up coil to convert changing magnetic flux from a fixed-RPM spinning magnetic rotor into output electrical power.  You are much less concerned about the power consumption of the DC motor.  There are some subtleties worth considering so here is long discussion below about various issues:

I don't think that measuring the power consumption of the DC motor will give you that much information.  For starters, we know ahead of time that the power consumption of the DC motor will be much greater than the output power of whatever pick-up coil configuration that you test.  I must stress again that the idea is that the magnetic rotor will be spinning at a fixed RPM but the Lenz drag on the rotor can be variable.

That means that if you just look at the spinning magnetic rotor (and ignore the DC motor) then that is a fixed-RPM device with a variable mechanical output power.  The mechanical output power of the rotor will increase as you bring the pick-up coil closer to he rotor.  That means that the electrical power consumption of the DC motor will also increase.  However, it's very important to state that you cannot compare an increase in the measured electrical output power of the pick-up coil with the increase in input electrical power consumption of the DC motor.  The DC motor is an "unknown black box" and you don't know exactly what it is doing with the input electrical power to turn it into mechanical output power.  Therefore the "safe" measurement protocol is to treat the spinning magnetic rotor as a near-constant-RPM device.  You are aware that the mechanical output power of the DC motor is equal to the mechanical output power of the spinning magnetic rotor.  However, you cannot easily measure this mechanical output power in your testing.  Ultimately this is not an issue since you only want to compare the performance of different pick-up coil configurations.  Hence the idea of the spinning rotor as a "device that spins at a constant RPM under different pick-up coil loads."  That gives you a constant-RPM reference for testing the pick-up coils.  You "do not know" what the mechanical output power is but that's okay because you don't need to know it.

I put "do not know" for the mechanical output power of the spinning rotor in quotations because you can make inferences about it.  You can assume that the mechanical output power of the rotor is equal to the thermal power dissipation in the the pick-up coil assembly.  So that goes back to what I said before:  You know the resistance of the coil itself, you know the resistance of the load resistor, and you can measure the RMS current flowing through the circuit.  So the total electrical power measurement is equal to the total thermal power dissipated and that is also equal to the average mechanical power being provided by the spinning rotor.  You also know the RPM (or angular velocity) of the rotor.  Therefor you have all of the data necessary to calculate the average torque being supplied by the DC motor to make the magnetic rotor spin.  It's interesting to note that you can't directly measure the average torque of the spinning rotor, but you can measure it with quite a bit of accuracy (probably within 1%) by simply number crunching the RMS voltage measurement from your scope display!

MileHigh
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: MileHigh on December 31, 2013, 09:19:21 PM
Synchro1:

Here is Igor's second clip again:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mzNjAs3-9LA (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mzNjAs3-9LA)

Look at the left digits on the power supply showing the current draw of the setup.   When Igor inserts the ferrite rod into the core of the coil tell us if you see the current increase.   When he removes the rod tell us if you see the current decrease.

Note also that he is most likely crippling the usefulness of the ferrite rod by attaching the magnets to it.  Chances are the LEDs would have gotten much brighter if he inserted the ferrite rod alone without the attached magnets.  Notice however that he never makes that test, he failed to do an A-B comparison of rod with magnets vs. rod without magnets.  Naturally without making that test there is a possibility that you could lead yourself down a garden path and make incorrect conclusions and inferences.  The more information you have to work with the better off you are and the better your understanding of your test setup.

MileHigh
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: Magluvin on December 31, 2013, 10:20:55 PM
Specially for synchro1, some facts about Reed switches. Switching frequencies above 20 Hz will produce unexpected results. Switch time is around 50 ms.

Driving a magnet spinner with a reed switch will be problematic above 1200 rpm (20 Hz).

http://www.meder.com/fileadmin/meder/pdf/en/Technical_Documents/Parameters_of_Reed_Switch.pdf (http://www.meder.com/fileadmin/meder/pdf/en/Technical_Documents/Parameters_of_Reed_Switch.pdf)

It is not forbidden to try higher frequency switching with a Reed switch, but the results will be unpredictable. But there could be a conspiracy about 400 Hz switching with a Reed switch (24000 rpm), watch out.

Greetings, Conrad

Funny thing about reed switches. They have resonant freq also. :) So I would bet that the max recommended switching speeds are below any resonant freq known to the reed.  But if you find these res freq, may vary even in the same batch, then you could build the circuit around that and use the reed at its natural freq of movement.   

There are more than one freq the reed will show its colors. Below is a vid of mine that shows my  motor breaking through these areas between resonating reed freq. The coils are .45ohm not .9 ohm as stated in the vid.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B7QIpfSX_4Q (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B7QIpfSX_4Q)

So the reeds can be used at higher freq than recommended, just not all the frequencies above recommended. ;D And Im sure there are absolute limits. These big reeds cannot compete with tiny ones when it comes to speed.

Mags
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: conradelektro on January 01, 2014, 12:42:26 PM
Folks, take a look at this quote from Conradelektro from earlier in the thread:

"I am interested in this type of coil because I could feel this "rattle" in my fingers (which means "some strong force"), but the rotor did not slow down (the tub magnet has to be at a certain distance from the spinning magnet). That is interestingly strange. Maybe this "vibrating magnetic field" induces more current into the bifilar winding than one would expect. We will see, thank you for disclosing your observations I will try to replicate".

Ask yourselves what Conradelektro did wrong to get the failed results he posted? Practically everything I told him not to! Now he's dropped the "Synchro Coil" project cold!

I had no prior experience holding something that is attracted to a magnet (a piece of iron, another magnet, a coil with an iron core, a coil with a magnet stack core)  near a spinning magnet with my fingers. And if you do that you feel this "rattle" or "vibration". And this rattle and vibration increases and diminishes with the distance from the spinning magnet. And there is a certain distance where the effect is very fine (but you still feel it) and the rotor seems to stay at a stable speed. This happens because your fingers are very sensitive and the rotor speed change is not visible without very good instruments.

This "rattle" or "vibration" occurs because the spinning magnet offers a cyclical changing magnetic field to the "thing" (if it is attracted by the spinning magnet). This is also the reason why a pick up coil picks up a sine wave current and not DC.

So, I was fooled by sychro1's outrageous claims, by my inexperience and by my eagerness to detect something strange. But I am only fooled once by the same fool.

So, I made an error of judgment. But I learn from my errors.

And when building and testing my "synchro coil replication" I did everything as I understood from synchro1, no intentional falsification. And I will do his beloved "one layer synchro coil test" when I find the time. But there is no hurry. I am not a full time experimenter. It is just a hobby and I do experiments only every now and then. And I do things that I find interesting (for whatever reasons). I do not take orders from others. But I like suggestions, clarifications and corrections from others (as long as they have some real experience), because I want to learn. And believe me, I would very much like to see something extraordinary. But that is more difficult than expected. In this respect I was really naïve.

Synchro1, may be you can be less aggressive, less vindictive and less misguided by wrong concepts in 2014? Nobody is sabotaging anything or anybody. Nobody is in a conspiracy against you. Calm down, stay cool, and have a happy new year.

Greetings, Conrad
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: conradelektro on January 01, 2014, 05:18:26 PM
Also, I think it may be tuff to make a pancake bifi that will operate in the motors freq range. Were probably talking huge diameter even with fine wire. Tesla said the bifi config can be applied to any style of coils.

Mags

@Mags: May be it is sufficient to wind a bifilar pancake coil which rings at a higher harmonic to the rotor frequency?

Example:

- bifilar pan cake coil rings at 12.800 Hz (50 * 256)

- rotor spins at 3000 rpm = 50 Hz (I see the 1 AC cycle for each revolution of the "diametrically magnetized spinning magnet" in my measurements)

The idea is to measure the ring frequency of the bifilar pan cake coil (with my function generator) and then to adjust the rotor speed to a lower harmonic (by varying the supply Voltage to the 12 V DC motor which I plan to use in the future to spin the magnet).

Greetings, Conrad
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: synchro1 on January 01, 2014, 05:32:13 PM
I had no prior experience holding something that is attracted to a magnet (a piece of iron, another magnet, a coil with an iron core, a coil with a magnet stack core)  near a spinning magnet with my fingers. And if you do that you feel this "rattle" or "vibration". And this rattle and vibration increases and diminishes with the distance from the spinning magnet. And there is a certain distance where the effect is very fine (but you still feel it) and the rotor seems to stay at a stable speed. This happens because your fingers are very sensitive and the rotor speed change is not visible without very good instruments.

This "rattle" or "vibration" occurs because the spinning magnet offers a cyclical changing magnetic field to the "thing" (if it is attracted by the spinning magnet). This is also the reason why a pick up coil picks up a sine wave current and not DC.

So, I was fooled by sychro1's outrageous claims, by my inexperience and by my eagerness to detect something strange. But I am only fooled once by the same fool.

So, I made an error of judgment. But I learn from my errors.

And when building and testing my "synchro coil replication" I did everything as I understood from synchro1, no intentional falsification. And I will do his beloved "one layer synchro coil test" when I find the time. But there is no hurry. I am not a full time experimenter. It is just a hobby and I do experiments only every now and then. And I do things that I find interesting (for whatever reasons). I do not take orders from others. But I like suggestions, clarifications and corrections from others (as long as they have some real experience), because I want to learn. And believe me, I would very much like to see something extraordinary. But that is more difficult than expected. In this respect I was really naïve.

Synchro1, may be you can be less aggressive, less vindictive and less misguided by wrong concepts in 2014? Nobody is sabotaging anything or anybody. Nobody is in a conspiracy against you. Calm down, stay cool, and have a happy new year.

Greetings, Conrad


This experiment is very, very easy to succeed at. I simply slip two 1" radial magnets into the core of a plastic Radio Shack magnet wire spool lightly wrapped, and position it where it vibrates. The output goes through the roof. You have to be a real "Turkey" not to get that to work.  


Your magnets are not very strong compared to the one's I use. You were instructed by me to merely wrap some plastic tape around your radial magnets, not build a "Taj Mahal" to intern it in for starters. All that's left to do is just to lash wrap a little wire on it. This is a two minute job!
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: Magluvin on January 01, 2014, 07:01:40 PM
@Mags: May be it is sufficient to wind a bifilar pancake coil which rings at a higher harmonic to the rotor frequency?

Example:

- bifilar pan cake coil rings at 12.800 Hz (50 * 256)

- rotor spins at 3000 rpm = 50 Hz (I see the 1 AC cycle for each revolution of the "diametrically magnetized spinning magnet" in my measurements)

The idea is to measure the ring frequency of the bifilar pan cake coil (with my function generator) and then to adjust the rotor speed to a lower harmonic (by varying the supply Voltage to the 12 V DC motor which I plan to use in the future to spin the magnet).

Greetings, Conrad

Hey Conrad

You have a bpc that rings at 12.8khz?  I have not seen such as of yet. Maybe pancakes ring lower than a normal layered coil?  How big is the coil?

What I was claiming in the post before this one you replied to, is that I needed 70ft of 26awg in series bifi, multi layer wound on a closed Ecore. I would have imagined that a bpc no core, or even an open core, might need to be large to get to the 10khz I am experiencing with a closed core.

I can get my coil to ring 9600hz by applying 4800hz, but loaded, not much more than 1 cycle gets to the output as the load kills off the unpowered resonance going into the next res cycle before the input influences it again at half the freq. Using the exact freq of the coils res, helps to keep the coil resonance active while loading. Helps a lot.  So hitting the coil with half of its res freq, output is not nearly as high as giving it the same freq. To get similar output using half freq, the input needs to be larger to account for the loss of the second res cycle that is not being driven.

Mags

Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: synchro1 on January 01, 2014, 07:39:33 PM
@Conradelektro,


Milehigh asked you to buy a D.C. motor. I want to warn you in advance that the motor's drive shaft will be a different dimension then your magnet hole. I know from experience that you'll find it extremely difficult to attach the drive shaft to the magnet without it wobbling!


My advice to you is to spin a large radial tube attached to a ball bearing at the base, on a concave cosmetic mirror with your current pulse relay coil sensor circuit. This will increase your torque and balance greatly with a minimum of expense and effort. Happy new year to you!
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: MileHigh on January 03, 2014, 04:26:31 AM
Conrad:

With respect to the load resistor, note that although it gives you the maximum power transfer, it is only 50% efficient because the pick-up coil is dissipating the same amount of power.  Suppose that your pick-up coil is 10 ohms.  So if you make the load resistor 90 ohms then the setup is 90% efficient at transferring power to the load, and the trade-off is that you transfer much less power as compared to the matched load resistor.  In mains power distribution it works like this.

MileHigh
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: conradelektro on January 04, 2014, 01:34:05 PM
......
Therefore the "safe" measurement protocol is to treat the spinning magnetic rotor as a near-constant-RPM device.  You are aware that the mechanical output power of the DC motor is equal to the mechanical output power of the spinning magnetic rotor.  However, you cannot easily measure this mechanical output power in your testing.  Ultimately this is not an issue since you only want to compare the performance of different pick-up coil configurations.  Hence the idea of the spinning rotor as a "device that spins at a constant RPM under different pick-up coil loads."  That gives you a constant-RPM reference for testing the pick-up coils.  You "do not know" what the mechanical output power is but that's okay because you don't need to know it.
......
MileHigh

@MileHigh: I build a contraption with a 12V motor (see the photo and specs, eventually I bought the one depicted and not the one mentioned in my former post, the price was 9.-- EUR). And it behaves as you say, a device that spins the magnet with a specific rpm (depending on supply Voltage) even under considerable load. I will do more tests coming week. Thank you for your explanations.

The coil measurements with my vertical model and with this new contraption match (under the same conditions: rpm and distance from spinning magnet, the spinning magnets are the same type in both "machines").

@Mags: I did not wind a bifilar pan cake coil yet. I just stated an idea when writing about spinning the magnet at a lower harmonic of the bifilar coil.

Greetings, Conrad
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: synchro1 on January 04, 2014, 04:48:41 PM
Synchro1:

Here is Igor's second clip again:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mzNjAs3-9LA (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mzNjAs3-9LA)

Look at the left digits on the power supply showing the current draw of the setup.   When Igor inserts the ferrite rod into the core of the coil tell us if you see the current increase.   When he removes the rod tell us if you see the current decrease.

Note also that he is most likely crippling the usefulness of the ferrite rod by attaching the magnets to it.  Chances are the LEDs would have gotten much brighter if he inserted the ferrite rod alone without the attached magnets.  Notice however that he never makes that test, he failed to do an A-B comparison of rod with magnets vs. rod without magnets.  Naturally without making that test there is a possibility that you could lead yourself down a garden path and make incorrect conclusions and inferences.  The more information you have to work with the better off you are and the better your understanding of your test setup.

MileHigh


Those very tiny incremental changes on the display can't account for the blazingly bright increase in LED intensity! Igor states that there's an overall increase in voltage and current output, and he went further to report a rotor acceleration as well. He starts the video by visually by speeding the rotor up while holding the magnatized ferrite close to the rotor. You can very easily see the ferrite chasing the rotor. Look at the video by Ibpointless2: 


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AN37ruFKrhs (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AN37ruFKrhs)
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: synchro1 on January 04, 2014, 05:40:47 PM
@Milehigh,

Have a look at this video on the "Macroscopic Aharonov-Bohm effect":

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ugxmtT4FUME (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ugxmtT4FUME)


This relates to the "Vector A potential" of Dr. Richard Feynman; The vector A potential is not confined to the magnet core, and is located along the axis of symmetry in the toroid schematic below!


Conradelectro sadly failed to harness this charging effect because he overwound his "Synchro coil". 
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: synchro1 on January 04, 2014, 06:29:13 PM

This video is very informative, and demonstrates self assisted oscillation power output:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iJsVSMQqCOM (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iJsVSMQqCOM)


@Conradelectro,


                        At 3:15 in this video, a quote appears that reads as follows:


"Winding a coil or helix now needs a bit more thought! Spin of the "A VECTOR POTENTIAL" and the dynamic movement of it needs to be accounted for.

Quote from the Youtube comment:


"I show the importance of knowing and understanding the A Vector Potential and how simple it is to create a "self assisted oscillation". This set of shorted Self Assisted Oscillating Coils. This can be improved hugely and is possible to be made to self run with this technology. Nikola Tesla, Floyd Sweet, Lester Hendershot, Edd Leedskalnin and Daniel McFarland Cook all knew about this technology. They all used it in various ways to improve their devices"....
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: synchro1 on January 04, 2014, 07:09:18 PM
@Conradelektro,


There's one more test you can make on the "Synchro coil" that you over wrapped. Wire a fast switching diode in series with a capacitor between the two coil leads and check the capacitor for spontaneous charging. Please check for this self oscillated charging effect. This is just a ten minute job! Would you be willing to a least try that?


I noticed the fastener nut you choose to connect the DC motor drive shaft to the rotor axle with that large set screw jutting off to one side. That really looks very professional. You could probably get it going faster spinning it by hand! Fine example of precision craftsmanship.


What's that piece of crap have to do with the thread topic?
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: synchro1 on January 04, 2014, 08:45:37 PM
Thank you Gyula and synchro1 for your explanations.

To clarify for all readers what synchro1 proposes, I made a drawing of the "synchro coil" (a generator coil).

I do not realy see the connection (the equivalent components) between a "Gary horshoe magnet neutral line / plate near the neutral line" and what synchro1 proposes (the "synchro coil" near the spinning magnet)?

Synchro1 could you formulate your thoughts on the connection between the "Gary setup" and your "synchro coil"?

I understand that Gyula envisions the generator coil on the plate near or exactly at the neutral line in front of a horse shoe magnet (what I call the "Gary setup").

The Piezo actuator sounds great but it is too early for me to go into that. I want to experiment with a "synchro coil" near my two magnetspinners first. May be one has to go back to the "Gary setup" with a coil on the plate and glue the plate to the Piezo actuator?

Greetings, Conrad

P.S.: "Gary setup" is Fig.1 to Fig.4 from synchro1's post http://www.overunity.com/13852/self-accelerating-reed-switch-magnet-spinner/msg379824/#msg379824 (http://www.overunity.com/13852/self-accelerating-reed-switch-magnet-spinner/msg379824/#msg379824)
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: conradelektro on January 04, 2014, 08:51:32 PM
@Conradelektro,

There's one more test you can make on the "Synchro coil" that you over wrapped. Wire a fast switching diode in series with a capacitor between the two coil leads and check the capacitor for spontaneous charging. Please check for this self oscillated charging effect. This is just a ten minute job! Would you be willing to a least try that?

I noticed the fastener nut you choose to connect the DC motor drive shaft to the rotor axle with that large set screw jutting off to one side. That really looks very professional. You could probably get it going faster spinning it by hand! Fine example of precision craftsmanship.

Synchro1: I am willing to try. Well knowing that it will not please you, whatever I do, because you want the impossible.

What I do not understand is why you are always that spiteful, seems to be a habit of yours. I know that there is a better way of coupling a DC motor to a an other axis, it was just a first test of the concept. And it is sufficient to turn the magnet at a known rate. Why do you think that a precise measurement done at e.g. 2400 rpm reveals less than doing it at e.g. 24000 rpm? Turning speed is just a parameter, and if this parameter is the same in comparative tests, its value does not matter.

You also seem to always misunderstand strange videos: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iJsVSMQqCOM

There is no energy created in this video, the experimenter puts in 12,6 V at 1.1 A (~12 Watt) into his strange transformer. Lighting the small lamp with 12 Watt is no great feat and proves nothing. There are hundreds of videos in YouTube where the input becomes less when doing strange things with a transformer or drive coil. But the overall input always is very high and the output (electricity or torque) very low.

It has something to do with the Z value (impedance http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrical_impedance). The resistance can go higher and such the input lower. Voltage / current ratio is only trivial for a DC current not for an AC current going through an inductor. If the phase angle changes (by doing something strange to a transformer) the input can become lower (but there is no gain concerning the much lower output).

I am currently trying to understand the "complex nature" of inductors and capacitors, and it is a steep learning curve. Something you seem to want to avoid.

There is something you might want to learn: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impedance_matching

And concerning crap, you seem to be the master of it.

Greetings, Conrad
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: synchro1 on January 04, 2014, 08:57:43 PM
@Conradelektro,

Here's a quote from Dr. Richard Feynman:

"Winding a coil or helix now needs a bit more thought. Spin of the A vector potential and the dynamic movement of it needs to be accounted for".

Compare the coil in your schematic at the bottem with the "MOBY JOB" you delivered at the top!
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: MileHigh on January 04, 2014, 10:57:58 PM
Conrad:

That's a nice looking first setup.  I hope that you have fun with the DC motor and look forward to seeing what kinds of tests you end up doing.

Synchro1:

Quote
Those very tiny incremental changes on the display can't account for the blazingly bright increase in LED intensity!

We both know that you have no measurements to back up that claim.  Why don't you try being real?

The video by Ibpointles2 shows something that we have seen on hundreds of clips by now.  There is nothing special and it is a known and explainable phenomenon.

MileHigh
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: synchro1 on January 04, 2014, 11:17:00 PM

Quote from Conradelektro;

Synchro1: I am willing to try. Well knowing that it will not please you, whatever I do, because you want the impossible.

The A vector potential is not impossible to harness. There's a vibrating frequency of magnetism that's a constant throughout the Universe, like the speed of light. It's measured at 7.8 hertz in the Earth's field due to impedence in the atmosphere and known as the Schumman constant. This vibration produces a spin outside the magnet core even when the magnets are stationary. The only way you can not measure this output in your "Synchro Coil" is to get the polarity of the diode or capacitor mixed up. You only have a limited number of permutations to work through before you get it right. Just get some clip wires out, and make sure the insulation is cleaned from the ends of the coil leads. Try and test for coil wire polarity with your multi-meter in advance. Polarity makes a difference; If you can't determine which end is positive, you'll have to try a hit and miss approach. It shouldn't take long before you notice a charge climbing on the capacitor in very low range. The worst case scenario would involve stripping wire off the coil as a last ditch attempt, until a charge appears in the capacitor. We can re-engage in a fruitful dialogue once you establish the authenticity of this phantom "COOK EFFECT" force for yourself. I am not trying to hoodwink you, this is not a hoax!

On our Planet, the Bloch wall has a frequency of ten to the twelfth power hertz. This wave length is between short radio waves and infra red radiation!
 
                            "THE FREQUENCY OF THE BLOCH WALL IS ONE TERAHERTZ".
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: MileHigh on January 05, 2014, 08:05:37 AM
Synchro1:

Your posting #837 is filled with silly nonsense and gibberish.  It's getting tiring.  It's a disservice to everyone to read that kind of stuff.  The "A field" is just bunk.  You linked to a clip where a guy lights up a small incandescent and makes some crazy claim.  All that he did when he shorted the coil was to change the AC impedance of the setup so the bulb became brighter.  You linked to a clip where a dude thinks he has made a connection between quantum effects and a bar magnet.  He is unable to explain why the nails are attracted to the ends of the bar magnet and not the center.  That puts him in pre kindergarten when it comes to electronics.

I hope that Conrad does some of the tests that you requested to see if any of your fantastic claims are true.  If they turn out to be not true (which is what will happen) then we will see if you have the character to come back and be a man and admit that you were wrong.

MileHigh
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: TinselKoala on January 05, 2014, 10:47:49 AM
@Milehigh,

Have a look at this video on the "Macroscopic Aharonov-Bohm effect":

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ugxmtT4FUME (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ugxmtT4FUME)


This relates to the "Vector A potential" of Dr. Richard Feynman; The vector A potential is not confined to the magnet core, and is located along the axis of symmetry in the toroid schematic below!


Conradelectro sadly failed to harness this charging effect because he overwound his "Synchro coil".

This video does not show what it says it is showing. Both parts are simply wrong, they are misinterpretations of what is actually happening.

A "Bloch wall" has no more reality than isobars on a weather map. All magnetic field lines are closed loops.
This is the physical meaning of "div B = 0". To claim a "frequency" of a "Bloch wall" sounds like nonsense to me. Cut a bar magnet in half at the "Bloch wall" with a hacksaw and what do you get: you get two, smaller, bar magnets and now "suddenly" you have two "Bloch walls", one in the center of each of your new short bar magnets. Pretty strange behaviour for something that you think is "real" and has a "frequency".
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: conradelektro on January 05, 2014, 11:03:17 AM
Conrad:

That's a nice looking first setup.  I hope that you have fun with the DC motor and look forward to seeing what kinds of tests you end up doing.

MileHigh

@MileHigh: My intention is to test for differences between bi-filar and mono-filar coils with the same physical size and the same number of turns of identical wire (same wire length).

For such tests I need a "test bed" which allows to spin a diametrically magnetized magnet (as a rotor) with a predefined speed (rpm) to test for differences in "picking up electricity" as in a dynamo and to test for differences in "Lenz drag".

Now I have two such "test beds", a puls motor (which should react very well to "Lenz drag") and the set up with the 12V DC motor (which should provide a constant rpm even under some drag).

There are of course other measurements to do, like impedance, self resonance, phase angle, parasitic capacitance. I read so many fantastic stories and claims about bifilar coils, I want to see myself , if there is anything to it.

Since synchro1 made such outrageous claims about his "synchro coil", I tested a replication of such a "synchro coil". And it does not show any interesting effects. Therefore all further tests with a "synchro coil" are not very pressing for me and will be done as an unimportant "side show".

Once I have wound a set of "coils to be tested" I will create a new thread for discussion. I also want to make the "magnet spinner with the 12 DC motor" a bit better (a better coupling between the 12 V DC motor with the spinner axis).

In the meantime this crazy thread will do. Nobody is in a hurry besides synchro1. He can do his own tests in case he needs them urgently. I am not his tester. I test what interests me at my own slow speed. And I am always grateful for ideas and suggestions, as long as they are not too crazy and too insulting.

Synchro1 has clearly overstepped my tolerance. I have not made any claims, I even admit that my tests are not disproving the "synchro coil" in any general way (negative proof is never possible; one can only prove that "something is", never that "something is not"). My tests of a "replication of the synchro coil" show nothing special, that is the only result. One can draw conclusions, but not more. May be synchro1 can build one that is special. But it is up to him.

Greetings, Conrad
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: synchro1 on January 05, 2014, 05:10:00 PM
@MH, TK & CE,


I'm amused by you three stodgy cynics; To imagine a magnetic field is solid and not dynamic is utterly ludicrous to me. I tested the "Cook Effect" thousands of times, spoken about it constantly on the web site. A grade school kid could get the test to work.  Conradelectro says his experiment's on the "backburner" because I'm crazy. The Schumman constant turns out to be imaginary; We have Magnetic resonance imaging in medicine and recently I saw a bifilar pancake wireless energy receiver in a Samsung cell phone that's the highest state of the art, charging the phone off Wi-Fi signals at the airport, and Conradelectro's building some paleolithic "flintstone" contraption to demystify the coil. The three of you guys are just a set of inveterate "Cranks", and you all just "Chickened out" on my hot plate bet while all the time going on with endless reams of rubbish. I started this thread and I want you creeps to stay on topic.      
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: conradelektro on January 05, 2014, 06:09:21 PM
I did another test with the synchro coil. It is about the claim that the "synchro coil" charges up a capacitor by just sitting there.

Please see the attached photo and drawing which depicts the test.

I did the test also with a "normal coil". And I moved a strong magnet left and right (several times) in front of the coils which induces a small Voltage into the cap (up to 1 Volt if you do it fast and long enough) which dissipates soon through the Voltmeter. This is to prove that everything was connected correctly.

Measuring just 0 Volt is not very indicative. But showing that a coil produces electricity if a magnet is passed rapidly passed it, proves what is commonly known.

Of course, synchro1 will see a conspiracy, so be it. Sorry, I do not have a diode which can rectify Terahertz.

What did I show: in my house a "replication of the synchro coil" does not produce electricity by just sitting there. It behaves like a "normal coil" and only produces electricity if a magnet is moved passed it.

Conradelectro says his experiment's on the "backburner" because I'm crazy.

I did not write that, but you speak the truth this time. You are either trying to be funny in a strange way or you have a serious mental condition.

Greetings, Conrad
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: synchro1 on January 05, 2014, 08:47:54 PM
@Conradelektro,


Try one layer of wire on the magnet stack. There's a spin field outside the magnets, Dr. Richard Feynman calls it the A vector potential. He also says you have to give the coil a bit of thought to harness it. Daniel Mcfarland Cook used one layer of 32 gauage wire, and a second of 16. There's way too much wire on the coil. I pointed this out over and over. Try "A Little bit of thought"!  
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: conradelektro on January 05, 2014, 09:30:56 PM
@Conradelektro,
Try one layer of wire on the magnet stack. There's a spin field outside the magnets, Dr. Richard Feynman calls it the A vector potential. He also says you have to give the coil a bit of thought to harness it. Daniel Mcfarland Cook used one layer of 32 gauage wire, and a second of 16. There's way too much wire on the coil. I pointed this out over and over. Try "A Little bit of thought"! 

@synchro1: so, what is it, one layer of wire or two layers (one 32 gauge and the second 16 gauge)?

How do I wind "a little bit of thought" onto the magnet stack?

Why do we need the spinning magnet if the coil does it all by itself? Make up your mind. Give it a little bit of thought.

Greetings, Conrad
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: synchro1 on January 05, 2014, 10:27:24 PM
@Conradelektro,


The coil I got my best results with is in this picture with green wire on it. The magnets I used were very powerful 1" radials of high quality. You can see one mounted over the brown coil. Two of those coupled in the radio shack spool with the green wire. This is home sitting on my test bench and I find it a bit amusing that you're encountering such enormous difficulties getting the charge that's so easy for me.


You may have to start over with two of your more powerful rotor magnets. The A vector spin's close to the magnets, so it really doesn't help to build the wire to far away from the surface of the magnets. Somebody else will probably succeed before you do at the rate your going. I like to poke a little fun at you guys, don't take it the wrong way!  
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: conradelektro on January 05, 2014, 11:00:41 PM
Now I have a "one layer synchro coil".

And you do not have to guess, it is exactly the same, zero output, same set up as in my previous test with the "overwound synchro coil".

And of course, if I wave a magnet over the coil I can induce a few mV.

So synchro, what is it now, any excuses?

Quick, write some excuses before I hold the "one layer synchro coil" near the spinning magnet. It has about 2 Ohm DC resistance.

Greetings, Conrad
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: conradelektro on January 05, 2014, 11:22:49 PM
I tested the "one layer synchro coil" with the spinning magnet (with the 12 V motor magnet spinner) and the highest output over a 3 Ohm resistor is about 7 mV at 3000 rpm very close to the spinning magnet (3 mm).

If I go further away from the spinning magnet the output rapidly goes below 1 mV (which is the lower limit of my scope).

Synchro1, I am through with you. You have to find an other fool for your strange concepts. It was fun as long as it lasted. Best is you show your own tests and measurements in this thread. I can not do it to your liking.

Yes, I know, bigger magnets, faster spinning. It always needs something bigger and faster to do the impossible.

In a few days, once I have wound a set of pan cake coils, I will start a new thread for the discussion of the differences between bi-filar and mono-filar pan cake coils (the coils having the same physical dimensions and the same length of identical wire).

Greetings, Conrad
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: MileHigh on January 06, 2014, 02:39:40 AM
TK:

Certainly Bloch walls can exist in real life under the right set of conditions.  But my first response to that is "So what?"

Likewise certainly there are no Bloch walls in bar magnets.  In an ideal world when you state that to someone that believes that there is a Bloch wall inside a bar magnet, they would be curious and go and do the research.  It's so ridiculously easy to do in this day and age.  They would educate themselves and come back and post stating that they realize that they were wrong.  Perhaps more importantly they would realise that they were being misled by other people.  They might even start to question the motives of the people that misled them.

Very sadly, that almost never happens.  Even more sadly, some of their more informed peers that they consider colleagues with the same views and aspirations, they won't tell them that there are no Bloch walls in bar magnets.  Fear has many manifestations.

I think there is also a "rebel" angle.  It feels "cool" to go against the grain and just parrot incorrect and misleading concepts because some dude with an alternative energy cult following says it's true - without offering a shred of proof.  Many people wil continue to believe that there are Bloch walls inside bar magnets when it doesn't even make any sense.

MileHigh
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: synchro1 on January 06, 2014, 03:10:59 PM
@Milehigh,


Do you own any bar magnets? I purchased the full range of neodydmium spheres, tubes, and disk magnets
from the largest to the smallest and own hundreds of bar magnets. My theories followed my test results not the other way around. Every magnet has two poles and a neutral zone between the fields of opposite spin wherein there is no attraction force in either direction. 


Conradelektro has proven something of value; Weak low grade magnets won't produce the "Cook effect".
The only experimenters who can contribute worthwhile results are the ones who can afford to buy powerful high grade magnets to experiment with. Why can't you afford to buy magnets of this kind to help?
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: conradelektro on January 06, 2014, 03:37:29 PM

Conradelektro has proven something of value; Weak low grade magnets won't produce the "Cook effect".
The only experimenters who can contribute worthwhile results are the ones who can afford to buy powerful high grade magnets to experiment with. Why can't you afford to buy magnets of this kind to help?


@synchro1: why do you always twist the facts? Attached find the specification of the magnets I used to build both versions of the "synchro coil", they are "high grade" Neodymium NdFeB / N45 (6 stuck together to form a tube).

Greetings, Conrad
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: MileHigh on January 06, 2014, 04:04:14 PM
Synchro1:

Quote
Why can't you afford to buy magnets of this kind to help?

WHAT?  Did I ever say that I can't afford to buy magnets?  You have to stop putting words in people's mouths.

Quote
My theories followed my test results not the other way around. Every magnet has two poles and a neutral zone between the fields of opposite spin wherein there is no attraction force in either direction.

Your test results are correct but your theories are wrong.  "I see no attraction therefore there must be a Bloch wall" is wrong.  Please do the research online or get some books on electricity and magnetism.

MileHigh


Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: synchro1 on January 06, 2014, 05:51:36 PM
@synchro1: why do you always twist the facts? Attached find the specification of the magnets I used to build both versions of the "synchro coil", they are "high grade" Neodymium NdFeB / N45 (6 stuck together to form a tube).

Greetings, Conrad


Don't you think accusing me of "Always twisting facts" is putting a bit too much on it?


Get serious! Your magnets are a full five times smaller then the ones I used in length and half the width. That's a factor of at least 10 times less powerful. You need to link twenty of those magnets together to equal the strength. Cook's ferrite cores were six feet long. Try and couple as many large diametric magnets as you have together, place a wrap of dielectric tape around them, give them a light coil wrap and retest for the spontaneous charge!  


The magnet core coil won't work as a flux field generator if it fails to generate the spontaneous charge from the "A" vector potential. It doesn't matter how large it is! You can get this to work if you try hard enough.
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: Magluvin on January 06, 2014, 06:24:29 PM

Don't you think accusing me of "Always twisting facts" is putting a bit too much on it?


Get serious! Your magnets are a full five times smaller then the ones I used in length and half the width. That's a factor of at least 10 times less powerful. You need to link twenty of those magnets together to equal the strength. Cook's ferrite cores were six feet long. Try and couple as many large diametric magnets as you have together, place a wrap of dielectric tape around them, give them a light coil wrap and retest for the spontaneous charge! 


The magnet core coil won't work as a flux field generator if it fails to generate the spontaneous charge from the "A" vector potential. It doesn't matter how large it is! You can get this to work if you try hard enough.

Why the great push to have Conrad do tests that you say you have done yourself? Why cant you show 'your' results first?  Something is weird here. ???

Are you afraid to show the results??  So you want someone else to show them so they can take all the risks of showing, if it works at all?  Thats the only reason I can come up with. ???

Mags
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: conradelektro on January 06, 2014, 07:03:33 PM
@synchro1:

Show clear and concise measurement together with the specs of the materials you used.

Unless you do that I will not react to your posts any more. You are full of words but nothing tangible.

Reading through the thread http://www.overunity.com/13460/teslas-coil-for-electro-magnets today, I saw what a clown you are. You fooled me long enough, I hope you had some twisted fun.

Greetings, Conrad
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: synchro1 on January 06, 2014, 08:06:12 PM
Why the great push to have Conrad do tests that you say you have done yourself? Why cant you show 'your' results first?  Something is weird here. ???

Are you afraid to show the results??  So you want someone else to show them so they can take all the risks of showing, if it works at all?  Thats the only reason I can come up with. ???

Mags


@Magluvin,

I am teaching others how to replicate the design based on solid scientific principles. There's a big difference between showing something and explaining how it works. This project is open source and everyone is learning from experience. My first modified "Cook battery" had eight one inch diametric magnets coupled end to end. I never experimented with magnets of lesser strength. I can assure you if you wrap diametric magnets of that strength with 32 and 16 gauge in parallel, connected to a fast switching diode and hi-voltage capacitor, you will generate the spontaneous "Cook effect" charge I speak of. I never tried it with magnets of lesser strength. Conradelektro discovered that magnets of lesser strength don't work. This amounts to a time saver for anyone else who might want to attempt it. I did a bifilar nail test video and all I heard was that it's fake! A third party verification dispels these kinds of accusations.  
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: synchro1 on January 06, 2014, 08:14:11 PM
@synchro1:

Show clear and concise measurement together with the specs of the materials you used.

Unless you do that I will not react to your posts any more. You are full of words but nothing tangible.

Reading through the thread http://www.overunity.com/13460/teslas-coil-for-electro-magnets (http://www.overunity.com/13460/teslas-coil-for-electro-magnets) today, I saw what a clown you are. You fooled me long enough, I hope you had some twisted fun.

Greetings, Conrad


There's a story of a wise man who fell into a hole self consumed! Some people can't tell the forest from the trees. You have to do some intuitive gauging to get things to work right.


I was discussing a terahertz fractal of magnetic resonance as it relates to the Barkhausen effect on the Tesla Coil thread. The question is: Do the Barkhausen jumps correspond to a magnetic frequency resonance based on the terahertz constant, like musical octaves? There's no circus here. I'm prepared to re-engage in that discussion over on that thread if you choose.


See the magnet pictured below: Buy four of them from K&J magnetics. This magnet has over 40 lbs of pull. Four of them coupled would hold a grown man off the floor. These kinds of super strong diametric magnets will definitely generate the "Cook effect" power I achieved with just a wire coil wrapped around them alone. Be prepared to fork over around $100. for the set. A lot of money, but worth it. Once you tap the "A" vector potential in these magnets, it would only take a tiny rotor to oscillate the flux field!  
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: conradelektro on January 06, 2014, 08:58:13 PM
@synchro1: I see a stack of magnets and a coil with a very thick layer of wire (clearly more than two layers).

Which diode did you use? Specify the wire, the number of turns and the number of layers, bifilar?

Show a measurement, but without clutter on the table. You said you measured in the woods, on a garden table would be sufficient.

The photos and videos you show (if they are your photos and videos at all) do not show anything useful.

I think I see through your strange ways. You latch on to some words, theories and videos from others which you happen to come across and then you spin an ever evolving tale of nonsense. One has to read your posts through in one go to see that.

But it does not matter, you have lost credibility. Your game has become a lame duck. I wonder what you get out of it. Looks pretty sick to me.

Greetings, Conrad
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: synchro1 on January 06, 2014, 09:06:06 PM
@Conradelektro,


You couldn't change a flat tire. The picture is a picture of magnets. The coil has nothing to do with the magnets. You're an "Ivory Tower Egg Head", bub. I wouldn't trust you to shine my shoes. You're in Liliputia! Here's where to shop for those kinds of "Man Size" magnets:


http://www.kjmagnetics.com/products.asp?cat=16 (http://www.kjmagnetics.com/products.asp?cat=16)
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: conradelektro on January 06, 2014, 10:06:30 PM
@Conradelektro,


You couldn't change a flat tire. The picture is a picture of magnets. The coil has nothing to do with the magnets. You're an "Ivory Tower Egg Head", bub. I wouldn't trust you to shine my shoes. You're in Liliputia! Here's where to shop for those kinds of "Man Size" magnets:


http://www.kjmagnetics.com/products.asp?cat=16 (http://www.kjmagnetics.com/products.asp?cat=16)

It is not a question of getting some magnets or of showing a photo of some magnets.

A sane person would just show clear measurements and would build several versions of his great discovery and describe it in a concise way. You would be on to the greatest discovery since electricity was discovered.

You just spin a strange tale. Always wiggling away from really showing something useful. Always changing to some nonsense or to some unimportant subject (like a photo of a magnet). Always avoiding the real issue.

Over and out of this nonsense thread.

Greetings, Conrad
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: synchro1 on January 06, 2014, 10:41:28 PM
@Conradelektro,


I spend the winter in the tropical paradise of Costa Rica where the winter weather's warm. It's no problem for me upload a video demonstrating the effect once I return home in six months. Your turn to be patient!  
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: conradelektro on January 06, 2014, 10:47:18 PM
@Conradelektro,

I spend the winter in the tropical paradise of Costa Rica where the winter weather's warm. It's no problem for me upload a video demonstrating the effect once I return home in six months. Your turn to be patient! 

Fine, please demonstrate your great discovery whenever it is convenient for you. In the meantime, let's do something useful. I am sick and tired of words.

Greetings, Conrad

Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: synchro1 on January 06, 2014, 11:26:12 PM
@Conradelektro,


Imagine eight of those 40 lb diametrics coupled inside an electrical conduit, then wrapped with one layer of 32 gauge wire and over that another layer of 16 gauge wire going in the same direction. They're connected in parallel. There's a fast swirching diode and a capacitor in series between the thick and thin wire on the other end. We have a total of 360 lbs of pull force inside the conduit. Cook's original was an LL-LL tank . This is now a modified LL-C tank for the self assisted oscillation. You can bet you'll be able to measure spontaneous output in the capacitor. This I call the "Cook effect".


You can position this "Cook Coil" very close to a spinning rotor without causing attraction. The output that accrues there has nothing to do with rotor induction at that point. None of your tests were conducted in accordance with any of these conditions and all your findings were false.


I modified the winding and found it worked with just the 32 gauge wrapped series bifilar, but without the powerful magnets it's hopeless. I didn't know it wouldn't work with weaker magnets. Now I do. So at least we know that much more now then before, and I think it was worth it, so thanks anyway for trying.


Best regards,


Synchro
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: conradelektro on January 06, 2014, 11:55:18 PM
@Conradelektro,


Imagine eight of those 40 lb diametrics coupled inside an electrical conduit, then wrapped with one layer of 32 gauge wire and over that another layer of 16 gauge wire going in the same direction. They're connected in parallel. There's a fast swirching diode and a capacitor in series between the thick and thin wire on the other end. We have a total of 360 lbs of pull force inside the conduit. You can bet you'll be able to measure spontaneous output in the capacitor. This I call the "Cook effect".


You can position this "Cook Coil" very close to a spinning rotor without causing attraction. The output that accrues there has nothing to do with rotor induction at that point. None of your tests were conducted in accordance with any of these conditions and all your findings were false.


I modified the winding and found it worked with just the 32 gauge wrapped series bifilar, but without the powerful magnets it's hopeless. I didn't know it wouldn't work with weaker magnets. Now I do. So at least we know that much more now then before, and I think it was worth it, so thanks anyway for trying.


Best regards,


Synchro

Fine, fine, demonstrate that in a clear way and with all components clearly specified in six months or whenever. Then may be I listen to you again. In the meantime, words will not help any more. Way too much has been written by you.

It was my own decision to do tests, so do not worry, I take the responsibility for my follies. I do not resent time spent on strange endeavours, but I do not like strange tales span over and over again. Show something in a credible and straight forward way without the hype and I am ready to try again.

It is fine if you can not do tests for a six months or for a year, but spare us the words. Only measurements count the rest is just vapour. In all the strange tales I read in the OU forums there is never something tangible. Words, words, words, words, words, words, words, ...........

And again I have to tell you, a bigger magnet can not do anything more in principle than a smaller magnet. It is the hallmark of a delusion that faster and bigger does it. It does not help to talk a real test down, it speaks for itself. I do not have to prove that your concept does not work. The burden of proof is on you.

Greetings, Conrad
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: synchro1 on January 07, 2014, 12:12:26 AM
@Conradelektro,


You act like you're the only one paying attention to this thread. What about all the other people learning from me. Who are you to tell me I'm writing too much? I'll write all I want. This is my thread! Who appointed you censor? You're the one that post phoned the test and ran too much rubbish for two weeks over the Holidays.


Quote from Conradelektro;


"And again I have to tell you, a bigger magnet can not do anything more in principle than a smaller magnet. It is the hallmark of a delusion that faster and bigger does it".


This quote from you is really really stupid!

You should try and stack all the magnets you have together, including the radials of different dimension. Strip everything down, all the rotors the levitator etc. Lash wrap a single layer, then test for the spontaneous output. Improvise a solution! Go where no man has gone before! You want a 3-D schematic in triplicate of what a "Single Wrap" is supposed to look like. You have allot of nerve calling me lame. Just go for it!
                 
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: MileHigh on January 07, 2014, 01:57:37 AM
This is the inescapable reality:

http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/electric/farlaw.html#c1 (http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/electric/farlaw.html#c1)

Faraday's Law:

Any change in the magnetic environment of a coil of wire will cause a voltage (emf) to be "induced" in the coil. No matter how the change is produced, the voltage will be generated. The change could be produced by changing the magnetic field strength, moving a magnet toward or away from the coil, moving the coil into or out of the magnetic field, rotating the coil relative to the magnet, etc.

Faraday's law is a fundamental relationship which comes from Maxwell's equations. It serves as a succinct summary of the ways a voltage (or emf) may be generated by a changing magnetic environment. The induced emf in a coil is equal to the negative of the rate of change of magnetic flux times the number of turns in the coil. It involves the interaction of charge with magnetic field.

There is just no validity to what you are alleging Synchro1.  I challenge you yourself to prove otherwise.

MileHigh
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: synchro1 on January 07, 2014, 02:56:20 AM
I first noticed the "Cook effect" while spinning magnets inside coil cores. There's a brown coil wrapped serial bifilar in the group photo on the last page. I noticed a voltage across the wraps while the rotor magnet was stopped inside that coil. The rotor was a 1&1/2" diametric neo on an internal axle. I began to explore this effect and it led me to the "Cook battery". Therefore it's much easier to get the "Cook effect" then outlined by me. This diametric tube was on the perpendicular, across the inside of the coil core. A very powerful magnet too, but merely one magnet. That's all it took for me to get the effect the first time! I discovered the self oscillation intensified dramatically by accident, when my first "Cook battery" fell into a spinning rotor. I self looped that model, and the source battery began to charge furiously, and the charge held. I believe this kind of "Flux field generator" has the potential to replace fission power. I don't want it trivialized by an "Egotistical Pretender"! The "A" vector potential is real, and it's assisted self oscillation from rotor resonance is a very powerful generating source of electricity!        


Incidentally; It helps to warm a newly wound coil up by running a little current through it from a battery before you start testing with it!
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: MileHigh on January 07, 2014, 03:21:55 AM
Synchro1:

Quote
It helps to warm a newly wound coil up by running a little current through it from a battery before you start testing with it!

You should start doing stand-up comedy at tech trade shows!

If you mean the "Jeff Cook" effect like we see in these videos....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IMm70qQ5Jms (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IMm70qQ5Jms)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UA-6PSO2A_k (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UA-6PSO2A_k)

....then it is yet another misfire.   All that you are seeing is the magnet in the tube "falling" into its lowest magnetic potential energy state.  You know like when you stand a pencil vertically on end and then it falls over and likes flat on the table?

Assuming that I am correct and I have the right "Cook" effect then it's just another example of ignorance leading people down a garden path of their own making.  There is no such thing as the "Cook" effect.  Yet another reason to open up a book.

MileHigh
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: synchro1 on January 08, 2014, 01:56:19 AM
@Conradelectro,


Please check the voltage on the "Synchro Coil" capacitor periodically to see if any charge begins to build up over the course of time. The coil and capacitor constitute an LC tank . There's a strong chance that a tiny amount of power will begin to seep in and start to develop and that the magnets will then have a chance to begin to assist the oscillation.  

Here's an informative analysis by JLN of an LC tank with iron inductor core in his Parametric Power Transfer experiment:

http://jnaudin.free.fr/html/paraintr.htm (http://jnaudin.free.fr/html/paraintr.htm)


Initially, I explicitly requested that you test the "Synchro coil" with a 100uF Hi-voltage capacitor attached as an LC tank magnet assisted oscillator coil. This was just a ballpark guess by me based on my estimate of wire length. Milehigh interfered and persuaded you to remove the capacitor altogether, and replace it with resistors. This constituted a radical departure from my instructions! After taking sufficient time to think it over, I now firmly believe that Milehigh's over meddling was the primary cause of our failure! Tinselkoala can tell you how much of a major difference not having the capacitor in place would make! What we need to do now is to match a new capacitor value to the actual bifilar coil's inductance to achieve peak resonance! JLN calls the increased output created by the addition of the core to the LC tank, "Parametric Power Transfer". Our experiment is nearly identical to JLN's, except we have magnets in place of iron ferrite for a coil core, and we're inducing AC current mechanically instead of with integrated circuitry. 

Milehigh really bombed in on us like a "Barrel of Monkeys"!
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: Magluvin on January 08, 2014, 02:21:32 AM
Hey Synchro

When you said you first noticed it with the diametric mag, was the diametrics(not spinning) poles in line with the axis of the coil a the time, similar to the way the magnet stacks as Conrad tried?

Also, what voltages should be expected from your directions on how to build it? I have a few 3/4 dia x 1/2 N52's. Very hard to separate by hand. Would they be satisfactory?

Seems odd if the poles of the mags are lined up with the coil, that there would be AC oscillation.

Mags




Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: synchro1 on January 08, 2014, 02:33:09 PM
@Magluvin,


One large diametric tube sitting side ways inside the core of a Tesla series bifilar coil produced the spontaneous charge. Two fairly large coupled diametric tube magnets coupled end to end sitting up and down tightly inside the bore hole of a series bifilar solenoid coil produced the spontaneous charge. One diametric magnet up and down had no effect. The original "Cook battery" consisted of two criss croosed primary and secondary coils in parallel to create two intermeshed LL tanks. My modified oscillator of a Tesla series bifilar with a resonant capacitor is actually an LCC tank, including the bifilar coils inherent capacitance. It dosen't help to overwrap the coil, and it should be of fairly thin wire. The series bifilar style connection is important.


I discovered that the diametric magnets placed as described, help assist the tank oscillation. You need to jump start the circuit by charging the capacitor a little or shaking the magnets up and down inside the core. Once it's started it should continue to charge on it's own. I'll add something about the diode. I used a fast switching glass germanium of the crystal radio type.
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: synchro1 on January 08, 2014, 02:39:29 PM
Synchro1:

You should start doing stand-up comedy at tech trade shows!

If you mean the "Jeff Cook" effect like we see in these videos....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IMm70qQ5Jms (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IMm70qQ5Jms)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UA-6PSO2A_k (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UA-6PSO2A_k)

....then it is yet another misfire.   All that you are seeing is the magnet in the tube "falling" into its lowest magnetic potential energy state.  You know like when you stand a pencil vertically on end and then it falls over and likes flat on the table?

Assuming that I am correct and I have the right "Cook" effect then it's just another example of ignorance leading people down a garden path of their own making.  There is no such thing as the "Cook" effect.  Yet another reason to open up a book.

MileHigh


This is just more "Curve ball mischief" from you. Get a life for yourself you malicious goon! You rediscovered Faraday for me huh; Bully for you! You got Conradelektro to cut the capacitor off my LC tank for testing you meat head!


The "Cook effect" I'm referring to is a "Parametric Power Transfer".
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: synchro1 on January 08, 2014, 02:52:42 PM

Here's an active hyperlink on high frequency diodes:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JcCLIwlbhLc&;feature=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JcCLIwlbhLc&;feature=related)

@Milehigh,

Tell me what rectifying terahertz frequency AC current directly into DC current through an MIM diode has to do with Faraday?

The rectenna is a novel combination of a micro-antenna and a tunneling metal-insulator-metal (MIM) diode. This combination will allow for conversion of electromagnetic radiation in the terahertz frequency range (AC) directly into direct current (DC).


http://coolcadelectronics.com/portfolio-item/infrared-rectennas/ (http://coolcadelectronics.com/portfolio-item/infrared-rectennas/)
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: synchro1 on January 08, 2014, 04:22:24 PM
@Milehigh and Conradelektro,


I see the fine work you're doing on the Tesla coil thread, how did you guys conclude my "Synchro Coil" would work better with no capacitor attached?
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: Magluvin on January 08, 2014, 07:04:09 PM

 You got Conradelektro to cut the capacitor off my LC tank for testing you meat head!




Is this true Conrad?

Mags
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: Magluvin on January 08, 2014, 07:07:52 PM
@Milehigh and Conradelektro,


I see the fine work you're doing on the Tesla coil thread, how did you guys conclude my "Synchro Coil" would work better with no capacitor attached?

Hey Syncro

Is there an exact circuit posted for this?  Cuz you did mention diodes.  Thanks

Mags
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: synchro1 on January 08, 2014, 10:18:25 PM
I am including this Hendershot analysis of Fred B. Epps because there are two very important points here. One: The "Synchro Coil Capacitor" must be electrolytic; and Two: There has to be a "One way" interaction between the coil and capacitor!

THE COIL/CAPACITOR

In examining the CC assembly we find a very interesting component that is quite likely to create overunity performance if used properly.

(The basket-weave coil consists of braided windings over a modified electrolytic capacitor).
It is common sense that the capacitor and coil are intended to interact. The question is, what is the nature of that interaction?

Logically, there are three possibilities:

1) The coil affects the capacitor, but not the reverse.
2) The capacitor affects the coil, but not the reverse.
3) The coil affects the capacitor, and the reverse.


I reject option 2 because there is no element in the coil that can be affected by a changing electric field in the capacitor.


I reject option 3 because no true overunity device can be reciprocal-- it must be nonreciprocal. A reciprocal or 'two-way" device must always load the input and cause power loss at the input equivalent to the power gain. Let me explain what I mean by "reciprocal". Most systems that are encountered in everyday life and engineering practice are reciprocal in nature. What this means is that the energy relations are reversible. A good example is EM induction, where if the output of a motor becomes the input, the motor becomes a generator, and the energy relationship is reversed without being changed. This is an extension of Newton's law of action and reaction.


It has been proven (1) that certain systems are nonreciprocal, that is, the outputs cannot be made inputs. It has also been proven (2) that any nonreciprocal device with electrical inputs and outputs must contain a magnetic field. The magnetic field has the property of changing the direction of applied forces without doing work-- this is essential to these types of systems. In nonreciprocal systems the output does not load the input. Imperfect, lossy nonreciprocal devices can be constructed in many forms, among them gyroscopes, gyrators, ferromagnetic amplifiers, microwave phase shifters, and Hall effect devices.


Only the first option is capable of creating overunity performance: there must be a one-way interaction between the magnetic field of the coil and the capacitor. Otherwise the magnetic field must be loaded in some way, either inductively or parametrically, and the coil will lose energy. For there to be no losses in the core, it must 'see' the capacitor as basically an air core with an unvarying u of 1.
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: synchro1 on January 08, 2014, 10:30:50 PM
@Conradelektro,


Here are pictures of the precise componants I'm calling for: The Capacitor has to be the metal can electrolytic type in the correct range, and the diode, a tunnel germanium as pictured below, capable of rectifying micro wave frequency radiation!


The 100uF 50 volt capacitor I called for is of the "electrolytic" type, and the the germanium close to the tunnel diode. I noticed you ignored both those instructions from me, so I'm taking time out to reemphasize and underscore these very critical points over again!


I failed to emphasize these details strongly enough sooner, because my memory was a little fuzzy! You may have to special order these components. They're not that expensive, but utterly essential to the successful operation of the coil! Remember what we're aiming for! A resonant LC tank frequency that's reinforced by the terahertz vibratory spin of the permanent magnet "A" Vector Potential, and rectified by the tunnel germanium diode to DC power stored in the electrolytic capacitor. This magnet assisted LC self oscillation is then amplified by the magnet rotor resonance. Voila! The parametric power transfer "Synchro Coil". complete!
 
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: synchro1 on January 09, 2014, 02:03:13 AM
I  think it might help to wire a "Radio Tuner", or variable capacitor, in where the capacitor goes and fish around for the ideal resonant tank capacitance experimentally by scope at first. It should be a terahertz fractal, maybe a fibonacci number.
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: TinselKoala on January 09, 2014, 02:26:16 AM
I  think it might help to wire a "Radio Tuner", or variable capacitor, in where the capacitor goes and fish around for the ideal resonant tank capacitance experimentally by scope at first. It should be a terahertz fractal, maybe a fibonacci number.

That earns a ROFL, for sure. Just what does a terahertz fractal look like on a DSO, I wonder.

If you want some credibility, synchro.... why don't you present some _evidence_, like demonstrations of your own, that show some of these remarkable effects you claim.



Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: MileHigh on January 09, 2014, 02:57:13 AM
Synchro1:

It's time for a peace treaty.  I am not going to comment any more on your fantastical speculations, there is no point any more.  Do as much fantasy electronics talk as you want.  On your side stop all of the creative names you give me.

The only thing I will comment on are real world circuits or real clips made by people like Conrad and others.  Or I will comment on any serious electronics talk on threads of mutual interest.

The only "action" going on right now is Conrad, and let's hope that he continues his investigations.  I am sure that you have noticed that so far has has found no differences between monifilar and bifilar coils of similar construction.

MileHigh
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: synchro1 on January 09, 2014, 04:23:11 PM
@Milehigh,


I designed a coil to work with an electrolytic capacitor wired directly to one end of a bifilar coil. You got Conradelektro to remove the capacitor and test the coil with resistors. Now, you want to maintain that removing the capacitor made no difference because there's no difference between monfilar and bifilar coils. You stepped in and ruined that experiment.

Where's the diode I called for? What happend to the diode, huh? How's it possible for your amputated version to work as a resonant tank with no capacitor and no diode?

The other thing is, it's an outrageous distortion to maintain the bifilar and monofilar coils act the same by ignoring the resonant and power transfer characteristics that would cause you to loose your shirt on the JLN hotplate bet you chickened out on.


None of the high frequency sine wave energy was rectified into DC current in Conradelektro's test. The test was a complete farce thanks to your gross interferance. You have not an inkling of what the coil's real purpose is. It's hard for me to believe anyone can be as stupid as you are.



   
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: synchro1 on January 09, 2014, 08:02:20 PM
@Milehigh,


Try and remove the diode and capacitor from a crystal radio and see how much that improves performance.
You ran a snout rut that wide through my experiment, now you dare to call the coil "Fantastical"! Send me back to grammer school again why don't you. You're just a stinking fraud!
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: synchro1 on January 09, 2014, 08:41:22 PM
What Milehigh doesn't understand is that the "Synchro Coil" is not an induction coil, It's more of a Radio reciever, but the sine waves it rectifies are just outside the radio frequency bandwidth in the Teraherz range.


Conradelectro has determined that Tesla's series bifilar pancake coil acts equally well as an induction coil to a monofilar. What neither of these knaves understands is that the series bifilar in the "Synchro Coil" acts as a wireless energy reciever, much like the pancake coil in the Samsung cell phone, that charges it's battery off ambient radiation!


These guys reduced my Hi-frequency receiver coil to a worthless  induction coil to prove Milehigh's fetish theory about Tesla's inauthenticity! Both of them have been acting "Troglodytic"!  
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: synchro1 on January 10, 2014, 01:19:36 AM
@Conradelektro,


You need to wire the specific components I posted to the thread onto the magnet coil and check for spontaneous charge. Once you succeed at that you can move on to testing with the spinning magnet rotor. The charge zone should be located outside the induction zone as tested for with a multi-meter. You can go about this chore at your leisurely pace. You'll probably need to special order the "Tunnel Germanium diode". I'm very impressed with the look of your pancake video, but I never maintained anything about the use of a pancake coil for output purposes.


Everyone knows how good it performs as a wireless power receiver. This is it's function on the "Synchro Coil". I never at any time alleged the Tesla series bifilar coil works better as an induction coil. It was a huge mistake to test my "Synchro Coil" as an induction coil and maintain that it failed to work. The "Synchro Coil" series bifilar is designed to work as a POWER RECEIVER COIL, not an induction coil!  
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: picowatt on January 10, 2014, 01:44:38 AM


You'll probably need to special order the "Tunnel Germanium diode". 

Can you provide a part number for a "Tunnel Germanium Diode" suitable for operation in the THz band?

PW
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: Magluvin on January 10, 2014, 05:05:39 AM
Can you provide a part number for a "Tunnel Germanium Diode" suitable for operation in the THz band?

PW

This is from a document from 1963.  Maybe they are better these days.


"
TYPICAL RCA TUNNEL DIODE • switching times to 75 picoseconds • peak currents from 1 milliampere to 220 amperes • broad application capability • gigacycle switciiing speeds





http://www02.us.archive.org/stream/RcaTunnelDiodeManual/Rca1963TunnelDiodeManual_djvu.txt



Mags
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: synchro1 on January 10, 2014, 05:06:46 PM
@Picowatt and Conradelectro,


try a: 1N3712. In the meantime have a look at this "Leon Dragone Magnet Pump Video". You can see a closeup of the electrolytic capacitor and diode I use. The disk magnets on the coil are the most powerful available on the commercial market.


@Milehigh,


I prove here in this video, that I can generate power without moving magnets over the coil, outside the restrictions of "Faraday's Law". The magnets are in attraction. The coil is pulsed through the reed switch, then power is generated in the coil when the permanent magnet field reestablishes itself inside the coil! I produced this video to demonstrate the viability of the the "Synchro coil" theory you flagrantly scorned! There are no moving "Faraday magnets" in this magnet pump! Dr. Dragone maintained his simple magnet pump was COP>40.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q5WSPMeWGdE&list=TLvfF6ZA57LvV7eDFDeue0XosYGWgsP5s9 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q5WSPMeWGdE&list=TLvfF6ZA57LvV7eDFDeue0XosYGWgsP5s9)


Here's a second one with a clear view of the power reading:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jBPKO9qSfGk&list=TLvfF6ZA57LvV7eDFDeue0XosYGWgsP5s9
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: synchro1 on January 10, 2014, 06:32:29 PM
It occurred to me that if we ran a tickler coil down the center hole of the tube magnets in the "Synchro Coil", and pulsed it, we'd have a virtual the VTA, Vacuum Triode Amplifier, of Floyd Sweet. Floyd reported mega OU COP's!  


Quote from Dr. Dragone:


When a permanent magnet is placed inside a coil, and the current in the coil is turned on, the coil's field can aid or cancel the PM's field. If the coil cancels the PM's field, the magnetic energy of this field is lost from the environment. Where does this energy go?
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: picowatt on January 10, 2014, 06:47:01 PM
@Picowatt and Conradelectro,


try a: 1N3712. In the meantime have a look at this "Leon Dragone Magnet Pump Video". You can see a closeup of the electrolytic capacitor and diode I use. The disk magnets on the coil are the most powerful available on the commercial market.


@Milehigh,


I prove here in this video, that I can generate power without moving magnets over the coil, outside the restrictions of "Faraday's Law". The magnets are in attraction. The coil is pulsed through the reed switch, then power is generated in the coil when the permanent magnet field reestablishes itself inside the coil! I produced this video to demonstrate the viability of the the "Synchro coil" theory you flagrantly scorned! There are no moving "Faraday magnets" in this magnet pump! Dr. Dragone maintained his simple magnet pump was COP>40.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q5WSPMeWGdE&list=TLvfF6ZA57LvV7eDFDeue0XosYGWgsP5s9 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q5WSPMeWGdE&list=TLvfF6ZA57LvV7eDFDeue0XosYGWgsP5s9)


Here's a second one with a clear view of the power reading:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jBPKO9qSfGk&list=TLvfF6ZA57LvV7eDFDeue0XosYGWgsP5s9

Synchro1,

The 1N3712 is useless in the THz band.  A quick look at the setup in your video tells me that whatever you think you have going on, it is not likely to be happening anywhere near the THz band.   

PW


 
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: synchro1 on January 10, 2014, 08:57:15 PM
@Picowatt,


I realize that. The "Synchro coil's" resonant tank oscillation is in the megahertz range, close enough to gain excitement from the higher frequency. This is a magnet assisted oscillation! The power comes from the LC tank oscillation. The tank oscillation acts like a step down transformer. You have to match your electrolytic capacitor value to your series bifilar windings inductance so the resonant frequency's in the diode's catch range.

Some Radio shacks usually stock one hi-frequency glass diode that will work. They can order it if it's not readily available. It can help to go with a higher frequency broader spectrum diode like the tunnel germanium I recommended, but the Radio Shack inventory will work.


I thought there was a better close up of the diode then appeared. There's a close up of one in the intercom video. Just fast forward to 6:22 in the video:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9XMfCpUzq_g&list=TLIIucQXNfeEQeX8aSPjZQXw9pbykaf9I7 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9XMfCpUzq_g&list=TLIIucQXNfeEQeX8aSPjZQXw9pbykaf9I7)


I used powerful 1/2" x 1" coupled diametric neos, lightly wrapped in fine wire series bifliar. I never tested weaker magnets. The LC tank oscillation would normally peter out with out added input. The powerful neos alone are enough to sustain the oscillation, and continually charge the capacitor! I've been calling this the "Cook effect", after Daniel McFarland Cook, inventor of an eighteenth century magnet battery. Mine is a simplified version. I find it simple to get the effect. I tried different types of diodes, and the hi-frequency types perform the best. How large are the most powerful magnets you own? 
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: picowatt on January 10, 2014, 10:12:22 PM
What Milehigh doesn't understand is that the "Synchro Coil" is not an induction coil, It's more of a Radio reciever, but the sine waves it rectifies are just outside the radio frequency bandwidth in the Teraherz range.
... 

Synchro1,
I was merely disagreeing with your claim regarding the rectification of THz range sine waves.

That is very, very unlikely with your setup.  If the propagation and rectification of THz sine waves were happening with your circuit, that would be as much or more so remarkable than any overunity operation.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/THz_gap

PW



Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: synchro1 on January 10, 2014, 11:50:44 PM
Synchro1,
I was merely disagreeing with your claim regarding the rectification of THz range sine waves.

That is very, very unlikely with your setup.  If the propagation and rectification of THz sine waves were happening with your circuit, that would be as much or more so remarkable than any overunity operation.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/THz_gap (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/THz_gap)

PW


@Picowatt,


Take a look at this link on terahertz diode:


http://coolcadelectronics.com/portfolio-item/infrared-rectennas/ (http://coolcadelectronics.com/portfolio-item/infrared-rectennas/)
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: synchro1 on January 11, 2014, 12:02:17 AM
That earns a ROFL, for sure. Just what does a terahertz fractal look like on a DSO, I wonder.

If you want some credibility, synchro.... why don't you present some _evidence_, like demonstrations of your own, that show some of these remarkable effects you claim.


You'll have to wait for me to return from Costa Rica to the shop in Northern California. I just posted two videos of the incredible effects; You've probably already seen them both. One : Leon Dragone's magnet pump, and Two: the intercom coil. Have another look!


The Terahertz fractal I'm speaking of would appear as an increased charge rate. I talking about an LC tank resonance tested for with a variable capacitor.

Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: picowatt on January 11, 2014, 12:06:45 AM

@Picowatt,


Take a look at this link on terahertz diode:


http://coolcadelectronics.com/portfolio-item/infrared-rectennas/ (http://coolcadelectronics.com/portfolio-item/infrared-rectennas/)

So what is your point?  Do you actually believe that your clip leads, magnets, coils, and a relatively slow tunnel diode are accomplishing something similar to what is described in the link on rectennas?  DARPA would be very interested if that were so.

Sorry,  I do not believe you are rectifying THz range sine waves with the setup in your video. 

PW
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: synchro1 on January 11, 2014, 12:08:32 AM
Hey Syncro

Is there an exact circuit posted for this?  Cuz you did mention diodes.  Thanks

Mags


No, I currently have limited upload capabilities here in Costa Rica. The circuit is blindingly simple. Just a germanium diode in series with an electrolytic capacitor between the ends of a series bifilar coil. The coil of course is wrapped solenoid around powerful coupled diametric magnets of any number in length, the more the better!
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: synchro1 on January 11, 2014, 12:10:32 AM
So what is your point?  Do you actually believe that your clip leads, magnets, coils, and a relatively slow tunnel diode are accomplishing something similar to what is described in the link on rectennas?  DARPA would be very interested if that were so.

Sorry,  I do not believe you are rectifying THz range sine waves with the setup in your video.  

PW


The "Synchro coil's" resonant tank oscillation is in the megahertz range, close enough to gain excitement from the higher frequency. This is a magnet assisted oscillation! The power comes from the LC tank oscillation. The tank oscillation acts like a step down transformer. You have to match your electrolytic capacitor value to your series bifilar windings inductance so the resonant frequency's in the diode's catch range.



The magnet's assisting the LC tank oscillation. The magnet's frequency's in the terahertz range. The diode is not directly rectifying the magnet's vibration, but the excited energy in the circuit.


Look, the magnet is sustaining a resonant oscillation that would normally die out without additional input. The magnet assisted self oscillation is overunity. You'll have to wait for me to upload a new video. I've succeeded at this hundreds of times, it never failed to work. It's a wonder to me why no one else has tried it. Conradelektro started out with an attempt, and Milehigh barged in and ruined the test. You'll just have to be patient. I'm describing a very simple to understand effect!  
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: picowatt on January 11, 2014, 12:19:31 AM

 The "Synchro coil's" resonant tank oscillation is in the megahertz range, close enough to gain excitement from the higher frequency. This is a magnet assisted oscillation! The power comes from the LC tank oscillation. The tank oscillation acts like a step down transformer. You have to match your electrolytic capacitor value to your series bifilar windings inductance so the resonant frequency's in the diode's catch range.

Synchro1,

So then why would you state that you are "rectifying THz range sine waves"? 

PW
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: gyulasun on January 11, 2014, 12:20:03 AM

...   The circuit is blindingly simple. Just a germanium diode in series with an electrolytic capacitor between the ends of a series bifilar coil. The coil of course is wrapped solenoid around powerful coupled diametric magnets of any number in length, the more the better!

Synchro1, can you tell the exact type of the germanium diode you use in your circuit?
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: synchro1 on January 11, 2014, 12:20:43 AM
Synchro1,

So then why would you state that you are "rectifying THz range sine waves"?  

PW


By proximate consequence.
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: picowatt on January 11, 2014, 12:22:10 AM

By proximate consequence.

Whatever that means...

Have a nice day...

PW
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: synchro1 on January 11, 2014, 12:26:19 AM
Synchro1, can you tell the exact type of the germanium diode you use in your circuit?


@Gyulasum.


I believe the diode should depend on the resonant frequency of the circuit and the strength of the magnets.
It wouldn't hurt to test it with a handfull just to see which one works best. The "Germaium" diode has two numbers from two different manufacturers. They're made for crystal radio builders and are identical. So there's really only one "Germanium" diode that's manufactured for sale.
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: synchro1 on January 11, 2014, 12:33:32 AM
Does anyone of really believe that I'm trying "Hoodwink" any right honorable experimenters? Why would I put all this effort into trying to perpetrate a hoax? You can bet your bottom dollar that you'll get the results I'm positing, if you have the kind of strong magnets I used. It's really not that difficult to get this gizmo to work.
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: synchro1 on January 11, 2014, 12:43:56 AM
Whatever that means...

Have a nice day...

PW


Alright, maybe it would be better to say transforming and rectifying.
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: picowatt on January 11, 2014, 12:45:02 AM
Does anyone of really believe that I'm trying "Hoodwink" any right honorable experimenters? Why would I put all this effort into trying to perpetrate a hoax? You can bet your bottom dollar that you'll get the results I'm positing, if you have the kind of strong magnets I used. It's really not that difficult to get this gizmo to work.

I have not followed this thread or even what it is you are doing, so I have no comment regarding any of that.

I was just reading some random threads and saw your statement to MH regarding the "rectification of THz sine waves", which is a rather extraordinary claim.

Surely you do not believe a simple germanium diode and a rather large electrolytic cap are capable of rectifying a THz range sine wave.

PW

Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: synchro1 on January 11, 2014, 12:46:16 AM
One more thing; Don't wrap the magnet wire directly onto the magnets. You need a dielectric insulator. This can be a plastic tube, electrical tape cardboard etc.
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: synchro1 on January 11, 2014, 12:47:46 AM
I have not followed this thread or even what it is you are doing, so I have no comment regarding any of that.

I was just reading some random threads and saw your statement to MH regarding the "rectification of THz sine waves", which is a rather extraordinary claim.

Surely you do not believe a simple germanium diode and a rather large electrolytic cap are capable of rectifying a THz range sine wave.

PW


I modified that. I got effect first and set out to develop a theory afterwards to help explain the effect. I may have overstated that. I asserted the Bloch wall has a frequency of a teraherz. Then I maintained the vibratory spin of the A vector potential, outside the magnet core was exciting the self oscillation of the LC tank. Then I stated the diode was rectifying the terahertz sine wave energy however by proxy not directly. Got it? Maybe it would help if you took the the time to read the thread!
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: synchro1 on January 11, 2014, 05:16:43 PM
@Milehigh,


There are different ways to view phenomenon, like the wave and particle theory of light. They are different but not mutually exclusive. There's Dr. Dragone's point of view on the "Synchro Coil's" kind of output:

You challenged me to prove how a stationary magnet can generate a charge inside a coil. I submitted two Dr. Dragone video's demonstrating that effect.

The "Synchro Coil" is a wire coil wrapped around a permanent magnet core. You act as if it's preposterous for this kind of magnet core coil to generate electric power.

The coil charge, no matter how small, displaces the permanent magnet field, and the recoiling of the permanent magnet field generates a charge in the coil, just like in my Dr. Dragone demonstration. What exactly do you find wrong with this theory? You completely destroyed this "Magnet pumping" effect in Conradelektro's test coil! Maintaining the coil charge could be compared to an inflatable splint. The output over flow. No pressure in the splint tube, no compression on the broken bone!  

Look more closely at what you caused to take place in Conradelektro's "Synchro Coil" when you seduced him into breaking the electrical tank circuit by removing the capacitor from the coil! This would be the equivalent of disconnecting a battery electrode from my Dr. Dragone magnet pump, which I did by mistake in the second video. No output appeared! There was no coil charge to "bump" the magnets! The electrolytic capacitor, in series with a fast switching diode, needs to be precharged, before it can work in the "Lenz free" flutter zone of the spinning rotor! The "Dr. Dragone effect" and the "Cook effect" are synonymous. How could it be possible for the coil to bounce the magnet core for the recoil charge with the circuit broken? Do you understand what I'm saying? There's no "MAGNORESTRICTION" without the capacitor!

I have a right to be outraged at you for barging into that test with your brand of supercilious and condescending sabotage. You humiliated me as some kind of charlatan. I want a retraction of those fallacious test results, and an admission by you that you caused a critical malfunction followed by an apology! I hope Conradelektro can understand how radical a departure your alteration was from my original design. This coil deserves a retest! Furthermore, I don't want any additional interference from you!
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: synchro1 on January 12, 2014, 06:12:17 PM

Here's the "Old Scientist" tuning a bifilar coil LC tank with a variable air capacitor:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2CcxJogghxY (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2CcxJogghxY)

He concludes that a bifilar coil has strong harmonics but is not influenced in the same way a standard or
parallel LC tank circuit would be, due to the resonance between capacitor and the self capacitance of the coil.

In other words, the additional resonance between the capacitor and the self capacitance of the series bifilar LC tank creates a "Self stabilizing" feature not found in the normal LC tank.  
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: synchro1 on January 21, 2014, 07:08:04 PM

Here's a very simple Reed Switch Pulse Motor, from Igor, charging more than it consumes:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AWbtWofTjyc (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AWbtWofTjyc)
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: TinselKoala on January 21, 2014, 08:37:29 PM
It does NOT "charge more than it consumes".

If it did, you could do this: when the run battery is depleted, swap with the charged battery and run again. Measure the charge on each battery each time. Keep doing this back and forth... and the _average charge level_ of the two batteries will increase, until the batteries fail from being overcharged.

But this doesn't happen. In reality the average charge level of the two batteries will decrease steadily until neither is able to run the motor. If you believe otherwise.... feel free to demonstrate.
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: synchro1 on January 21, 2014, 09:13:35 PM

This circuit of Igor's is so blindingly simple, I feel I need to draw attention to it. Igor has merely two components in this self running circuit; A reed switch in series between the positive pole of the battery and the coil, and an LED collecting bemf from the coil and returning the back spike to the source battery! Take a close look at the schematic and listen to his explanation. This circuit is running very close to, if not right at unity!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vWvI7T7h3tk (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vWvI7T7h3tk)


Igor maintains he ran this spinner for six hours with hardly any drop in input voltage. Maybe milli volts, unmeasurable with the scale on his multi meter. This is proof some kind of charge is looping it's way back to the source battery, and not completely dissipating in the diode as milehigh maintains.
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: synchro1 on January 21, 2014, 11:00:04 PM
It does NOT "charge more than it consumes".

If it did, you could do this: when the run battery is depleted, swap with the charged battery and run again. Measure the charge on each battery each time. Keep doing this back and forth... and the _average charge level_ of the two batteries will increase, until the batteries fail from being overcharged.

But this doesn't happen. In reality the average charge level of the two batteries will decrease steadily until neither is able to run the motor. If you believe otherwise.... feel free to demonstrate.


The topic of this thread is a self accelerating reed switch spinner, not a self charging one. I'm examining an even simpler circuit with merely one component. It appears that some amount of current is making it's way back to the source battery through Igor's diode. In my set up, I believe the bemf is somehow feeding back to the pulse coil alone, to augment the existing pulse before it has a chance to get to the battery, and self accelerating the rotor.    


Let's be patient and wait for Igor's next video where he plans to mate a partner to his reed switch LED looper, and see if he succeeds in achieving a self runner. John Bedini points out that pulsing directly back to the source battery can cause problems by encountering a blocking resistance caused by the input pulse coming from the opposite direction. Igor's next model may get around that by staggering the back spike to the charge/ power batteries.  
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: MileHigh on January 22, 2014, 01:05:51 AM
Synchro1:

Quote
This circuit of Igor's is so blindingly simple, I feel I need to draw attention to it. Igor has merely two components in this self running circuit; A reed switch in series between the positive pole of the battery and the coil, and an LED collecting bemf from the coil and returning the back spike to the source battery! Take a close look at the schematic and listen to his explanation. This circuit is running very close to, if not right at unity!

That Igor clip unfortunately is a total bust.  No self running visible.  He thinks that the current is reversing and that's not the case.  It's a really bad mistake.  The LED lights up.  So either he has it backwards in his schematic or the LED really does light up when it gets a "coil fry" when the coil pushes current through the reversed-biased LED.  There is no battery recharging at all during the cycle, only discharging.

If you link to a clip that shows a serious attempt to show OU I will let you know.  That means they have to make real measurements, not just play "show and tell."

MileHigh
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: synchro1 on January 22, 2014, 01:23:01 AM
Synchro1:

That Igor clip unfortunately is a total bust.  No self running visible.  He thinks that the current is reversing and that's not the case.  It's a really bad mistake.  The LED lights up.  So either he has it backwards in his schematic or the LED really does light up when it gets a "coil fry" when the coil pushes current through the reversed-biased LED.  There is no battery recharging at all during the cycle, only discharging.

If you link to a clip that shows a serious attempt to show OU I will let you know.  That means they have to make real measurements, not just play "show and tell."

MileHigh


Yet another inane pontification from the improver who built a gas tank into my "Synchro coil"!
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: MileHigh on January 22, 2014, 01:37:52 AM
Attack of the Know-it-Alls!  lol

http://www.imdb.com/video/screenplay/vi179831065/?ref_=tt_ov_vi
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: synchro1 on January 22, 2014, 02:01:55 AM
Attack of the Know-it-Alls!  lol

http://www.imdb.com/video/screenplay/vi179831065/?ref_=tt_ov_vi (http://www.imdb.com/video/screenplay/vi179831065/?ref_=tt_ov_vi)


@Milehigh,


This video's not available in my country.


Current can only flow in one direction through an LED from anode to cathode. You'll notice that Igor has the cathode, or negative pole of the LED connected to the positive pole of his battery. Power can only flow in one direction here, from the coil into the battery, from the coil's back spike. Igor maintains he ran the spinner for six hours with no drop in input battery voltage. I guarantee you the battery voltage would go down noticeably if he disconnected the LED from the battery!


Take a look at his charge video:


How do explain the reading on his multi meter showing a charge increase on the charge battery if no current gets past the diode? That's just absurd to pretend the charge is imaginary!!
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: Farmhand on January 22, 2014, 02:14:09 AM
Synchro no current is measured in that video so no input/output power figures are known or shown, therefore no conclusion can be based on that. Atteh end he shows the output from one motor is just enough to run the other motor but there is no charging of the battery. No OU there.

..
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: Magluvin on January 22, 2014, 03:05:13 AM



Current can only flow in one direction through an LED from anode to cathode. You'll notice that Igor has the cathode, or negative pole of the LED connected to the positive pole of his battery. Power can only flow in one direction here, from the coil into the battery, from the coil's back spike. Igor maintains he ran the spinner for six hours with no drop in input battery voltage. I guarantee you the battery voltage would go down noticeably if he disconnected the LED from the battery!




I have found similarly that coil field collapse can happen in forward direction 'or' backwards.

From what is known, when we switch on dc to a coil then switch off, the field collapse causes more forward current from the coil. But what I had found a couple years ago was that if there is no where for that forward collapse current to go in the forward direction, then the field collapse charges the coils self capacitance to peak, and that stored voltage bounces back through the coil causing a reverse current and field.

I call it field collapse because Back/Reverse emf doesnt really apply during initial field collapse because the resulting current is forward and has nothing to do with a field collapsing on the coil that made it. BEMF has everything to do with impedance of a coil. The gradual field building of an inductor is due to Reverse emf due to currents building in the coils windings, which all the windings are inducing all the others at the same time and the induced windings want to push current in the opposite direction.

The only thing I can figure about how coils do what they do is because of resistance. Due to resistance, the voltage/current applied to the coil will always supercede the back/reverse emf and the input will eventually win the battle of fighting the bemf till the bemf does not exist and current from the input gets to its maximum due to resistance.

Soo, if the coil were super conducting, zero resistance, I believe the coil would not pass current at all as the bemf should be equal to the input, like the magnet floating on a super cooled super conductor.

I see Igor is using a single cell battery voltage of 1.3v.  That is key to what he is doing. If the input is higher, then there is a chance that the voltage potential developed by the coil collapse could be high enough to breach the gap in the read switch(spark). Reeds are pretty good at fast switching mechanically. Quick to close and open the distance between contacts. So the quicker the reed springs to its fully open position, the less chance of the collapse current from jumping the contacts.

On can easily get higher than input voltages from a coil collapse into a cap using a diode, WITH THE DIODE IN EITHER DIRECTION.   ;D   In one direction, when the reed is closed sending power to the coil, the diode does not conduct until the coil collapse. With the diode in the other direction, source current does flow to the cap and coil, but when the coil collapses, the cap gets just about as much HV as it did with the diode the traditional way.  This was when I discovered that the collapse can develop currents in either direction, depending on a way out for those currents. If there is no way out, then the collapse currents will die off within the coil in the form of oscillation within the coils LC. This isolated oscillation within the coil is at its resonant freq, whether it be 4mhz or 100hz depending on the coil and its self capacitance.


Possibly this is what Tesla switching is all about. Using a high speed rotor, the closing of the contacts, then the opening and creating distance very quickly and collapse currents dont have a chance to breach the gap. Just thoughts.


Mags

Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: synchro1 on January 22, 2014, 05:12:36 PM

Igor's new partner video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zc6Kf9U0yvc (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zc6Kf9U0yvc)
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: synchro1 on January 22, 2014, 05:31:04 PM
The current in this video travels through the LED to charge the capacitor, it dosen't "Dead End" there like MH implies: The opposite field change from the inductor collapse is graphically depicted at 5:20 in the video.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8vu9WDjBAho (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8vu9WDjBAho)


"The inductor changes the directions of electrons, the capacitor does not. Lets say the capacitor has just given all its energy to the inductor and it is the positive peck. Now the inductor has the energy and now the magnetic field starts to collapse, the electrons change in direction, but the potential is still positive for awhile but it is going negative.

At the positive peck and the negative peck is when collapsing magnetic changes the electron flow, not the potential right away. It is like pumping water up hill through a pipe into a tank. Then the water is allowed to run out of the tank back though the pipe in the opposite direction. It takes awhile for the energy in the tank to change (potential), but the water (electrons) changed direction right away. And that is why it is call a Tank Circuit".
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: synchro1 on January 22, 2014, 06:10:22 PM
I suggested to Conradelektro that he try and build this simple reed switch bemf feedback to source spinner to test my "Synchro coil". I plan to try it when I get home. The idea includes a bifilar power coil with one loop for output in series with a second fast switching diode and electrolytic capacitor, and of course a stack of coupled diametric magnets inserted into the coil core for the additional Lenz free "Magnet pumping" type power.
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: Tito L. Oracion on January 23, 2014, 01:21:59 AM
I have found similarly that coil field collapse can happen in forward direction 'or' backwards.

From what is known, when we switch on dc to a coil then switch off, the field collapse causes more forward current from the coil. But what I had found a couple years ago was that if there is no where for that forward collapse current to go in the forward direction, then the field collapse charges the coils self capacitance to peak, and that stored voltage bounces back through the coil causing a reverse current and field.

I call it field collapse because Back/Reverse emf doesnt really apply during initial field collapse because the resulting current is forward and has nothing to do with a field collapsing on the coil that made it. BEMF has everything to do with impedance of a coil. The gradual field building of an inductor is due to Reverse emf due to currents building in the coils windings, which all the windings are inducing all the others at the same time and the induced windings want to push current in the opposite direction.

The only thing I can figure about how coils do what they do is because of resistance. Due to resistance, the voltage/current applied to the coil will always supercede the back/reverse emf and the input will eventually win the battle of fighting the bemf till the bemf does not exist and current from the input gets to its maximum due to resistance.

Soo, if the coil were super conducting, zero resistance, I believe the coil would not pass current at all as the bemf should be equal to the input, like the magnet floating on a super cooled super conductor.

I see Igor is using a single cell battery voltage of 1.3v.  That is key to what he is doing. If the input is higher, then there is a chance that the voltage potential developed by the coil collapse could be high enough to breach the gap in the read switch(spark). Reeds are pretty good at fast switching mechanically. Quick to close and open the distance between contacts. So the quicker the reed springs to its fully open position, the less chance of the collapse current from jumping the contacts.

On can easily get higher than input voltages from a coil collapse into a cap using a diode, WITH THE DIODE IN EITHER DIRECTION.   ;D   In one direction, when the reed is closed sending power to the coil, the diode does not conduct until the coil collapse. With the diode in the other direction, source current does flow to the cap and coil, but when the coil collapses, the cap gets just about as much HV as it did with the diode the traditional way.  This was when I discovered that the collapse can develop currents in either direction, depending on a way out for those currents. If there is no way out, then the collapse currents will die off within the coil in the form of oscillation within the coils LC. This isolated oscillation within the coil is at its resonant freq, whether it be 4mhz or 100hz depending on the coil and its self capacitance.


Possibly this is what Tesla switching is all about. Using a high speed rotor, the closing of the contacts, then the opening and creating distance very quickly and collapse currents dont have a chance to breach the gap. Just thoughts.


Mags


Your really kind buddy  :) ;)
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: MileHigh on January 23, 2014, 01:58:37 AM
Synchro1:

Quote
"The inductor changes the directions of electrons, the capacitor does not. Lets say the capacitor has just given all its energy to the inductor and it is the positive peck. Now the inductor has the energy and now the magnetic field starts to collapse, the electrons change in direction, but the potential is still positive for awhile but it is going negative.

The gentleman that makes those clips is very smart and really knows his electronics.  It's wonderful to see how he restores old radios.  So it's strange how in that clip he makes a very basic fundamental mistake.  He says when the capacitor in the LC tank circuit has discharged all its energy then all of the energy is in the inductor.  Then he says the inductor's magnetic field starts to collapse and the current changes direction.

The reality is that when the capacitor is fully discharged and the inductor is fully charged, yes the inductor starts to discharge, but the current does not reverse direction at this point.  The point in time where the capacitor is fully discharged is the point where the current flow though the inductor is at a maximum.  As the inductor starts to discharge the current flow keeps going in the same direction but the capacitor voltage changes direction.

It was just one of those funny moments where he made a mistake, but all in all the guy is great.

MileHigh
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: Magluvin on January 23, 2014, 02:29:52 AM

Your really kind buddy  :) ;)

Well, Im some kind. ;D Others are a different kind. :) But you tito, you are The Kind. ;)

Why Am I kind?

Mags
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: synchro1 on January 23, 2014, 05:23:53 PM
Well, Im some kind. ;D Others are a different kind. :) But you tito, you are The Kind. ;)

Why Am I kind?

Mags


Tito excels at enigmatic riddles.
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: Magluvin on January 24, 2014, 12:34:13 AM

Tito excels at enigmatic riddles.

Yeah but just because I did not get the riddle yet, and supposedly some have, yet to be shown, doesnt mean he doesnt have some real answers. Anything is possible.  I still look back through the tread and I did learn some things along the way. But havnt figured out what doomaflochy works with the hickymajig to realize any amplification yet. My problem is lately not having enough time. When I had most of my nights and weekends free, I was always doing more and always in a groove where I didnt have weeks at a time away from projects.

Mags

Mags
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: synchro1 on January 24, 2014, 04:38:11 AM
@Magluvin,

Partial quote from Mags:

"I see Igor is using a single cell battery voltage of 1.3v.  That is key to what he is doing".

I think maybe the fact that you implied that Igor might actually be doing something, may have been perceived as too kind from the balustrade of a skeptic.
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: Tito L. Oracion on January 24, 2014, 05:03:48 AM
Well, Im some kind. ;D Others are a different kind. :) But you tito, you are The Kind. ;)

Why Am I kind?

Mags


If others only new what you've wrote above, surely they will appreciate it.  :)


well, maybe we have different understanding about it. :-\
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: Tito L. Oracion on January 24, 2014, 05:07:08 AM

Tito excels at enigmatic riddles.




No!, i'm actually trying to synchronize unsynchronize heads. joke  ;D

Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: Magluvin on January 24, 2014, 05:29:56 AM
@Magluvin,

Partial quote from Mags:

"I see Igor is using a single cell battery voltage of 1.3v.  That is key to what he is doing".

I think maybe the fact that you implied that Igor might actually be doing something, may have been perceived as too kind from the balustrade of a skeptic.

All Im saying is YES, it is a good way to send the coil energy back to the source. If the source were say 12v, the hv from the coil could breach the space between the switch contacts and produce continued forward current, draining the batt even more while the switch is suppose to be open. Basically it is good that he is using low voltage. It is a very good demonstration of what I have been saying for a while now.

But trust me, when the reed opens, the coil initially has all the intention of pushing current forward. But if the potential currents in the coil have no forward path, the field will collapse completely, charging the coils internal capacitance, the field goes into reversal and then the coil tries to push current in reverse. Once that potential reaches the conductivity of the white led 3.5-4v, then the coils currents have a path, back to the battery in a direction that charges it. He may get better results with just a plain diode that will conduct at .5-.7v  or red led at 2.1v, reducing the voltage drop which should send more back to the battery.

Mags
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: Dave45 on January 25, 2014, 12:47:30 AM
I have found similarly that coil field collapse can happen in forward direction 'or' backwards.

From what is known, when we switch on dc to a coil then switch off, the field collapse causes more forward current from the coil. But what I had found a couple years ago was that if there is no where for that forward collapse current to go in the forward direction, then the field collapse charges the coils self capacitance to peak, and that stored voltage bounces back through the coil causing a reverse current and field.

I call it field collapse because Back/Reverse emf doesnt really apply during initial field collapse because the resulting current is forward and has nothing to do with a field collapsing on the coil that made it. BEMF has everything to do with impedance of a coil. The gradual field building of an inductor is due to Reverse emf due to currents building in the coils windings, which all the windings are inducing all the others at the same time and the induced windings want to push current in the opposite direction.

The only thing I can figure about how coils do what they do is because of resistance. Due to resistance, the voltage/current applied to the coil will always supercede the back/reverse emf and the input will eventually win the battle of fighting the bemf till the bemf does not exist and current from the input gets to its maximum due to resistance.

Soo, if the coil were super conducting, zero resistance, I believe the coil would not pass current at all as the bemf should be equal to the input, like the magnet floating on a super cooled super conductor.

I see Igor is using a single cell battery voltage of 1.3v.  That is key to what he is doing. If the input is higher, then there is a chance that the voltage potential developed by the coil collapse could be high enough to breach the gap in the read switch(spark). Reeds are pretty good at fast switching mechanically. Quick to close and open the distance between contacts. So the quicker the reed springs to its fully open position, the less chance of the collapse current from jumping the contacts.

On can easily get higher than input voltages from a coil collapse into a cap using a diode, WITH THE DIODE IN EITHER DIRECTION.   ;D   In one direction, when the reed is closed sending power to the coil, the diode does not conduct until the coil collapse. With the diode in the other direction, source current does flow to the cap and coil, but when the coil collapses, the cap gets just about as much HV as it did with the diode the traditional way.  This was when I discovered that the collapse can develop currents in either direction, depending on a way out for those currents. If there is no way out, then the collapse currents will die off within the coil in the form of oscillation within the coils LC. This isolated oscillation within the coil is at its resonant freq, whether it be 4mhz or 100hz depending on the coil and its self capacitance.


Possibly this is what Tesla switching is all about. Using a high speed rotor, the closing of the contacts, then the opening and creating distance very quickly and collapse currents dont have a chance to breach the gap. Just thoughts.


Mags
  8) good explanation Mags
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: Magluvin on January 25, 2014, 03:20:25 AM
  8) good explanation Mags

Thanks Dave

Well the energy from the mag field collapse has to go somewhere. ;D If it can go forward, and it can go backward, then my explanation has merit. And I have not found another explanation for it, nor is there one out there like mine, that I know of. I have searched and not one book on power supplies or other lit has even shown or described the actual reverse possibilities, only forward. Strange.

Funny thing, Falstads Circuit sim can show it also. And you can pulse a coil and let it go and a scope trace will show a big hf oscillation of the coil. 

An easy example of showing the coil have reverse current from collapse is to put up a coil, dc source and a momentary switch in a loop. The add a diode across the switch in the reverse of switch on current. When you release the switch, the coil charges the source.  In real life, if the voltage potential developed across the coil during the first collapse is high enough to breach the switch, be it a reed, transistor, etc, then the coil will dissipate forward current, further depleting the source when the switch is suppose to be off. So be encouraged to work with low input voltage with reeds so as to avoid sparking the contacts because the collapse voltage isnt high enough to breach the gap.  Some use a cap across the reed and it can help. But real small caps can get to really high voltages and guess where the cap is? Across the switch contacts. ZAP. Ive ruined more reeds with a super small cap across them than a larger one.  ;) And then, hope that the reed doesnt close while the cap is charged. It can be a waste of energy. ;)

Higher voltage, bigger open gaps and faster switching motion. It does take a bit of time for the collapse current to build a high potential, so the switch would have to beat that time and get to max open gap before the spark can jump. ;D So Tesla's rotary switch makes a lot of sense in that respect.

Mags

Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: synchro1 on February 10, 2014, 07:01:02 PM

Dr. Stiffler demonstrates an oscillartory zone of swinging magnets that is a specific distance from the speaker magnets that help power the oscillation:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IljUwQGEkGo

Imagine holding the magnets stationary in the free swing zone, and wrapping them with a wire coil. Any chance we could measure any output from them? I think so!


The pendulum of magnets settles down to a stable oscillating frequency, Dr. Stiffler states it ran continuously at a this stable frequency. Perhaps if we determined what this oscillating frequency was, we could build a resonant LC tank around the stationary magnets to assist, and amplify any output?
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: TinselKoala on February 10, 2014, 08:05:49 PM
I'd rather imagine lunch. Happy Hour at the China Palace, 5.99, all you can eat.
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: synchro1 on February 10, 2014, 08:18:42 PM
The point is if we station a "Synchro Coil" where the magnet pendulum is free swinging, the stationary magnets will generate and store a charge! This kind of spontaneous charge is amplified powerfully if we impart motion to the driver magnets, and match that RPM to swing and tank frequency!


Dr. Stiffler mentions the "Dancing Magnets" oscillating blocker video of Marco's where we see an amplified motion at 7.8 hertz. A close inspection of Stiffler's video will show that his pendulum frequency works out to a neat twenty times the 7.8 Shumman constant! He says it self starts, runs ten hours, and stops inside a minute without the speaker magnets present.

@Tinselkoala,

Magnets have no MSG!
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: synchro1 on February 11, 2014, 07:02:31 PM

Quote from Tinselkkoala from the "Permanent Magnet Pendulum Motor" thread:


"Cheers, carry on, don't mind me, I hope somebody builds and tests it and proves me wrong by making a selfpowered perpetual pendulum, I really really do".


He really really did, now he'd rather get a case of acid indigestion from a cheap bowel of rancid noodles.
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: TinselKoala on February 11, 2014, 08:03:11 PM
Sorry... Stiffler never has demonstrated a truly self-powered anything. He demonstrates lots of interesting _RF_ effects, but he always has power coming in from some laboratory source.

I've got a pendulum sitting on my bench right now, that oscillates "perpetually". It never really comes to rest. How is it powered? It is in a draft tube, sealed on both ends, no wind is blowing it, I am not supplying it with electricity. Answer: it is powered by environmental vibrations in the sonic and subsonic frequency range, coupled into its suspension by mechanical contact with the table and wooden floor.

Now... off to China Palace for some _fresh_ noodles, no MSG included.
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: synchro1 on February 11, 2014, 10:15:18 PM
@Tinselkoala,


It wouldn't take Sherlock Holmes to solve the mystery of the missing alley cats in the restaurant's neighborhood.
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: synchro1 on February 12, 2014, 05:42:00 AM
Tinselkoala is attempting to trivialize the importance of Wesley Gary's "Neutral Zone Effect" observed in Dr. Stiffler's "Magnet Pendulum" with another silly prank. There's nothing trivial about this effect, or a scholar of Dr. Stiffler's calibre wouldn't be paying attention to it. None of these "Shade Tree" buffoons has any formal schooling.
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: synchro1 on April 26, 2014, 05:00:24 PM

Here's a video by Doug Konzen demonstrating the LENZ PROPULSION OUTPUT effect I tried to get Conradelectro to help show. Doug speeds the rotor up and reduces input by positioning a magnet core shorted output coil in adjacency to the spinning rotor. Doug would get the same effect if the coil leads were wired to a capacitive load, like the "Synchro Coil":


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uaaEdGPO7C8 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uaaEdGPO7C8)



Doug shows no difference with the circuit open! Conradelectro tested his version of my "Synchro Coil" with the coil leads unattached, against my stern protestation. This explains clearly why Conradelectro's tests were a miserable failure!
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: synchro1 on April 26, 2014, 05:44:43 PM
@Conradelectro,


Why not  try and retest your "Synchro Coil" again merely with the coil leads shorted, and see if you can replicate Doug Konzen's results? This shouldn't cause you too much bother. I would prefer to mend our collaborative effort. We started off with a very civil relationship, this would be a positive step towards reforging our friendship.
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: synchro1 on April 26, 2014, 09:25:12 PM

We need these three videos to fully understand the complete effect of Igor's ferrite magnet core in opposition trifilar.

Doug Konzen:

Backing magnets on motor coils:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jlgEaZ8Ppc0 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jlgEaZ8Ppc0)

Konzen's Shorted coil speed up video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uaaEdGPO7C8 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uaaEdGPO7C8)

And:

Igor Moroz:

Bedini magnacoaster:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mzNjAs3-9LA (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mzNjAs3-9LA)


Igor's trifilar has a power, trigger and output coil. The ferrite magnet core effect on the power coil speeds the rotor up, and increases input. The ferrite magnet core effect on the output coil speeds the rotor up more and lowers input while generating output. The increase in power consumption is offset by the increased speed and consequent output, which leaves the "Lenz Propulsion" output effect of rotor speed up and decreased input for a net gain!


Additionally, there's room for three more ferrite magnet core output coils around Igor's six magnet monopole rotor! I believe this configuartion has strong promise to self run!
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: Bob Smith on April 27, 2014, 03:25:59 AM
Synchro1,
You might find this of interest:
http://electropub.files.wordpress.com/2011/07/rotating-magnetic-field-using-4-coils-wrapped-around-a-ferrite-toroid1.pdf
Bob

Edit:  FWIW http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3cyw0x7Qg3I (See other related vids in channel)
Title: Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
Post by: synchro1 on April 27, 2014, 05:29:56 PM

4 coils wound in asymmetrical direction! Two sets, of oppositely wound coils around a toroid. Now, run opposite phase a.c currents through them, and you get some "Motion in The Ocean."

"The converter only works with 2 Phase Alternating Currents for the Transformer has TWO sets of windings ( PRIMARY), 4 wound coils is connected in a manner that they fix the magnetic lines of field in 90 degrees.. The Converter/Transformer is powered with TWO Primaries on the toroid, the 4 coils is wound in a Asymmetrical Manner".