Storing Cookies (See : http://ec.europa.eu/ipg/basics/legal/cookies/index_en.htm ) help us to bring you our services at overunity.com . If you use this website and our services you declare yourself okay with using cookies .More Infos here:
https://overunity.com/5553/privacy-policy/
If you do not agree with storing cookies, please LEAVE this website now. From the 25th of May 2018, every existing user has to accept the GDPR agreement at first login. If a user is unwilling to accept the GDPR, he should email us and request to erase his account. Many thanks for your understanding

User Menu

Custom Search

Author Topic: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.  (Read 289878 times)

synchro1

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4720
Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
« Reply #330 on: December 19, 2013, 02:09:36 PM »
@Tinselkoala,


 JLN performed a series of experiments with the Gegene electric hot plate that uses a Tesla series bifilar coil. Have you seen any of these experiments?

"Here is an interesting experiment about a high power electrical generator which is able to produce some KW. It uses the electronic controller of an induction cooker which can be purchased in any store for less than 80 €. The main specification of the GEGENE (Great Efficiency GENErator) is that it uses a BIFILAR PANCAKE COIL patented by Nikolas TESLA in 1894 in the patent N° 512,340".

Quote from Wikipedia:

"Eddy currents in conductors of "non-zero resistivity" generate heat as well as electromagnetic forces. The heat can be used for induction heating".
 
I used the phrase: "Zero reluctance to change in current direction" to explain" that the Tesla serial biflilar is a conductor of "Zero resestivity" and does not generate any heat from electromagnetic forces!

A single wrap coil has two ends. Run current through one side then stop and run current through it from the other side in the other direction and alternate repeatedly, then the wire will begin to heat up due to residual resistance. Repeat this with Tesla's serial connected bifilar and no heat will appear. Does this help?

http://jnaudin.free.fr/gegene/indexen.htm

I tried to point this crucial fact out to Milehigh in our numerous exchanges, and he recommended that I return to kindergarden.


P.S. No hard feelings, I'm glad you're sticking with the thread!
« Last Edit: December 19, 2013, 04:16:50 PM by synchro1 »

TinselKoala

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 13958
Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
« Reply #331 on: December 19, 2013, 05:08:59 PM »
@Tinselkoala,


 JLN performed a series of experiments with the Gegene electric hot plate that uses a Tesla series bifilar coil. Have you seen any of these experiments?
Of course I've seen them. There is no OU there, just a continuing series of misunderstandings and poor measurements, with conclusions based on faulty data and ignorance.
Have you seen a comparison of a TBC with a normal coil using the same amount of wire and the same geometry in the Gegene demonstration? (What JLN has done is a _demonstration_ not an experiment.)
Quote
"Here is an interesting experiment about a high power electrical generator which is able to produce some KW. It uses the electronic controller of an induction cooker which can be purchased in any store for less than 80 €. The main specification of the GEGENE (Great Efficiency GENErator) is that it uses a BIFILAR PANCAKE COIL patented by Nikolas TESLA in 1894 in the patent N° 512,340".

Quote from Wikipedia:

"Eddy currents in conductors of "non-zero resistivity" generate heat as well as electromagnetic forces. The heat can be used for induction heating".
 
I used the phrase: "Zero reluctance to change in current direction" to explain" that the Tesla serial biflilar is a conductor of "Zero resestivity" and does not generate any heat from electromagnetic forces!
You are once again simply wrong about that. Can you provide any evidence that your claim is true? EVIDENCE from good measurements performed on actual systems by competent individuals?
If by "resestivity" you mean "resistance" as in DC resistance, you are clearly wrong. If you mean, as you have claimed before, that the TBC winding has no inductance, you are also again clearly wrong.
Quote
A single wrap coil has two ends. Run current through one side then stop and run current through it from the other side in the other direction and alternate repeatedly, then the wire will begin to heat up due to residual resistance. Repeat this with Tesla's serial connected bifilar and no heat will appear. Does this help?
This is simply not true! Where did you ever get that idea?
Quote
http://jnaudin.free.fr/gegene/indexen.htm

I tried to point this crucial fact out to Milehigh in our numerous exchanges, and he recommended that I return to kindergarden.


P.S. No hard feelings, I'm glad you're sticking with the thread!

I'm with MH on this one. You have made preposterous claims about TBC windings before, without any substantiation, but you link to a certain web page as if it supports your claims. The claims on that webpage are also in error and appear to arise, once again, from a misunderstanding of #512340, coupled with some basic misunderstandings of EM theory itself. It's easy to refute most of what you claim about the Tesla Bifilar winding with simple experiments. Have you ever done these experiments for yourself?

Let me propose one to you FOR YOU TO PERFORM YOURSELF. Wind a TBC coil of your chosen dimensions. Use enough wire so that you have a respectable DC resistance. You do believe, I hope, that a TBC will have DC resistance! Then simply hook it to the AC mains through a Variac, and ramp up the voltage until you see a reasonable current of several amps in the circuit. This will reproduce your scenario described above, alternating current in the coil. Now... does the coil heat up, or does it not? If it does... there goes your misconception, out the window, and you really should spend some time rethinking what you "know" about Tesla bifilar windings.

Please perform this or a similar experiment using a TBC that you make yourself, and report your findings.

conradelektro

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1842
Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
« Reply #332 on: December 19, 2013, 06:46:00 PM »
Synchro1 has a theory which sounds good. And I like that he specifies exactly what he thinks should be built. Therefore I am willing to give it a serious try (within my personal means and capabilities).

It would of course be very astonishing if synchro1's predictions come true on the scale he envisions. But let's give him credit till someone has done good measurements. It would also be astonishing that no one has seen this phenomenon in the last 150 years. But still, synchro1 has seen something intriguing and it is worth while to investigate within reason.

Talking about reason. I have to postpone all further work till the new year. Reason dictates that I do not get over exited and enjoy the Christmas season as customary here in Austria.

Everybody, take care till the next year, I will be back and hopefully will do some useful measurements with the synchro coil. May be some will find the courage to join in on the fun in the next year.

Synchro1, thank you again for all your contributions, let's do some work in 2014.

Greetings, Conrad

synchro1

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4720
Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
« Reply #333 on: December 19, 2013, 07:08:53 PM »
@Tinselkoala,


                   I am willing to bet you any amount of money, wiseguy, I'm very serious about this, that a single wire coil placed on the JLN hotplate will start to melt, while the Tesla serial bifilar pancake coil transfers nearly all of the hotplate eddy current inductively without gaining in heat rise. Now you can put up or shut up!

                   You're telling me that if I plug the Tesla Pancake coil into a 120 volt A.C. wall outlet that it will catch on fire too. I already tried that, so maybe you're right about something!

MileHigh

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7600
Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
« Reply #334 on: December 20, 2013, 06:23:45 AM »
Conrad and Synchro1:

I caught up on the thread discussion and there are a lot of misconceptions.  This posting is not about the misconceptions, it's about your test setup and test plan.

The "synchro coil" test involves a vertically spinning radially magnetized magnet and a "synchro coil" as the external pickup coil in the "neutral zone."  The "synchro coil" has a stack of radially magnetized cylindrical magnets inside it.

From what I saw from reading the thread I did not see much about how you want to test this setup.  Of course I saw the FWBR and cap circuit and load resistor to measure the output.  Conrad will not be working on the bench until the new year but perhaps he will read and contribute to the thread.

So my question to both of you is what do you plan on doing for testing?  This is something  that normally is left to the experimenter to do.  Often they simply make a clip with some tests and then the clip is discussed afterwards.  I am requesting that you discuss the testing in the tread before you make a clip.  Please let me know what your approximate test plan is.

Thanks,

MileHigh

synchro1

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4720
Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
« Reply #335 on: December 20, 2013, 05:30:50 PM »
@Milehigh,

My initial approach involved looping output back to source to accomplish a self runner and demonstrate the postulated overunity of the "Synchro Coil". Coradelektro is in charge of his experiment. The initial test merely involves the proof of concept of the output coil as I understand. You and TK mastermined a novel circuit on this thread, and I propose a provisional truce on the acrimonious "Neutral self inductance" issue related to the Tesla series bifilar coil.  

conradelektro

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1842
Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
« Reply #336 on: December 20, 2013, 06:22:58 PM »
Conrad and Synchro1:

So my question to both of you is what do you plan on doing for testing?  This is something  that normally is left to the experimenter to do.  Often they simply make a clip with some tests and then the clip is discussed afterwards.  I am requesting that you discuss the testing in the tread before you make a clip.  Please let me know what your approximate test plan is.

Thanks,

MileHigh

@MileHigh: First, I am not claiming anything. I am just willing to do some tests. Thank you for taking an interest and I appreciate very much all advice you are willing to give. I am not an electronics specialist, I just like to build strange things, but my talents and my knowledge are limited.

I am intrigued by synchro1's claims and I am willing to spend some time on that. But I have no special relationship with synchro1 and if there is something to his ideas I give him full credit. All is his intellectual property, mine is just some non profit interest in strange claims. I think that synchro1 and I live on different continents and can not do anything together in reality besides exchanging ideas in this thread or by PM.

I can sit down at my computer during the holidays every now and then, but the "lab" is closed, so to speak.

Planned first test (please look at the attached drawing):

1) The magnet on the vertical axis will be driven by the depicted drive circuit. The power requirements of the drive circuit are known (approximately). The input Voltage from a laboratory power supply can be varied to achieve different turn speeds and different power demands (see the power requirement list on the drawing).

2) The "synchro coil" (only the empty bobbin case is available at the moment, the stack of ring magnets for the core is also available) will be placed by hand near the spinning magnet. Various positions can be tested by positioning the "synchro coil" by hand slowly nearer and farer from the spinning magnet.

3) The output of the synchro coil will be measure with the depicted "rectifier circuit" (scope or digital voltmeter). This should give some indication whether the output is in any way unexpected or strange (very high at a certain position of the synchro coil). It will be checked whether the synchro coil causes a strong reduction of the turn speed of the spinning magnet (may be at a certain distance the breaking effect will be stronger or weaker than expected).

I think that a video would not be of much help initially. Reporting my observations should be enough to get a first impression. I will do all tests suggested by others, as long as they are not too complicated and time consuming. All questions, comments and suggestions are welcome. I can also do videos in case there are interesting effects.

Much later, after some simple initial tests, I can try a loop back. But that will only make sense after we discover a unexpected high output of the "synchro coil".

Greetings, Conrad

MileHigh

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7600
Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
« Reply #337 on: December 21, 2013, 06:28:19 AM »
Synchro1:

Attempting to loop is bypassing some more basic steps that should be done fist.

You probably saw where I said that magnets don't affect coils because they don't produce changing magnetic fields.  So if Conrad does some tests he could check for that.

Conrad:

Some suggestions:

Keep in mind you are checking a "new coil" configuration.  So the logical thing to do is to compare it with an air core coil and a coil with a normal unmagnetized ferromagnetic core.  If you don't have a ferromagnetic core you can use nails of course.

We know that the higher the permeability of the core the more magnetic flux will flow through it.  You know the relative permeability of air is one, and for your ferromagnetic core it's say greater than 500.  What about the stacked magnets?  Well in the case of the stacked magnets the magnetic domains are already "busy" and you assume that the relative permeability is quite low.  So before even making the measurements the presumption is that the possible output power will increase as you go from air core to the synchro core to the regular ferromagnetic core.

You notice the strategy is to compare something new and different with some other things that are similar.  When you do listening tests with audio speakers at a Big Box electronics store you switch back and forth between two sets of speakers.  They call that "A-B comparison testing."  So the same concept applies here.

MileHigh

MileHigh

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7600
Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
« Reply #338 on: December 21, 2013, 06:52:55 AM »
Conrad:

For the FWBR output circuit there are technical issues for why it is less than perfect for this test.  It's a whole other discussion and if you want to know why I can explain in another posting.  So in addition to that test let me discuss another way of doing it for your consideration.

For starters, the basic idea is just to use a single resistor and not use an FWBR at all.  Then you simply look at the waveform on your scope and if your scope can measure true RMS voltage then you get an output power readout.  Or you can use a true-RMS multimeter.

An issue is the choice of the value of the load resistor.  This is very important because the choice of load resistor directly affects the output power going into the load resistor.

If you measure the resistance of your coil, and then use the same resistance value for the load resistor, then you will dissipate the maximum power in the load.  Note that the same amount of resistive power is being burned off in the coil itself.  So the "true" power output is arguably the coil resistive power plus the load resistor power.  When you measure one you know the value of the other.

This is actually the heart of your experiment:  You try air core, synchro core, and regular core for different values of load resistor.  You make your input power measurement going to the pulse motor and your output power measurement going into the load resistor or the (load resistor + the coil resistance) and compare.

You know that with a regular ferromagnetic core and using a load resistor that has the same resistance as your coil resistance, you should be extracting the maximum power from the spinning rotor.

Let's look at that from the point of view of the spinning rotor.   When the rotor sees this "maximum output power" coil configuration approaching it, it will experience the strongest Lenz drag possible.  There is a chance the power drain will overcome your pulse motor circuit and slow the rotor down a lot.  In most experiments the load resistor is too high in value and very little power is transferred into the load.  What you are trying to do when you chance the value of the load resistor is to make an impedance match between the spinning rotor magnet and the pickup coil.  Understanding the concept of impedance matching is of prime importance for understanding electronic and mechanical and other types of circuits.

So this is a study of different pickup coil configurations and how they output power into different values of load resistor.

Anyway, those are my suggestions for your consideration.

MileHigh

synchro1

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4720
Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
« Reply #339 on: December 21, 2013, 03:58:34 PM »
To Whom It May Concern:

"Be it known that I, Daniel McFarland Cook, of Mansfield, in the county of Richland and State of Ohio, have invented an Electro-Magnetic Battery, of which the following is a specification: My invention relates to the combination of two or more simple or compound helices and iron cores or "MAGNETS" in such a manner as to produce a constant electric current without the aid of a galvanic battery".


Below are pictures of the Cook battery with iron cores. The "Synchro coil" is basically just a simple modified version of Cook's invention with a 1:1 instead of 32:16 wire gauge bifiilar. The radial magnetized rings were initially chosen for the 'Synchro coil" core merely because they were available. The "Synchro coil" will generate a small amount of current spontaneously. It's interesting to note, that Cook used a hairpin bifilar tank wrap, called a "compound helice" similar to Tesla's pancake coil, twenty three years before Tesla patented his Pancake! Here's a link to the full patent:


http://my.voyager.net/~jrrandall/CookCoil.htm


The unique feature of this kind of output coil is that all the power is generated from within the output coil itself! The "Flux field" of the magnet rotor excites the coil's magnet core, but the "Synchro coil's" magnet core generates the output power not the magnet rotor.  
« Last Edit: December 21, 2013, 11:39:44 PM by synchro1 »

synchro1

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4720
Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
« Reply #340 on: December 21, 2013, 10:39:15 PM »

Here's a video by Tinselkoala, demonstrating that the inductance and magnetic field of a hairpin spool coil are zero. He then goes on to measure the same bifilar spool connected in series, measures inductance and calls this series bifilar spool a "True Tesla Coil" when Tesla's "Zero inductance coil" was patented as a flat coil, not a spool coil!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OcFySCAxLzs

Quote from Allcanadian:

"I was looking at tesla's patent for his bifilar coil a long time ago, and it's interesting to note that tesla's bifilar coil is "flat", and only works as tesla described when it is wound "flat" with no core. I built tesla's coil and put it on my scope and you should have seen the frequency hash this thing develops, it is nothing like the normal bifilar coil everyone is building. Tesla stated as well that a ferromagnetic core only dampens oscillations, If you want to see some weird shit try (not) building tesla's coil the way his patent states it should be built".


I think it would help to experiment with many different kinds of output windings on the "Synchro coil". The current series bifilar type worked fine for me, but I never tried anything else. Something different could work better!


synchro1

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4720
Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
« Reply #341 on: December 22, 2013, 12:13:54 AM »

@Tinselkoala,

"Magnetoresistance
is the property of a material to change the value of its electrical resistance when an external magnetic field is applied to it".

The electrical resistance in the copper wire material of the magnet core coil is changed when the external field of the magnets is applied to the wire. This is a different measure but related to self inductance. I used the term "Reluctance" not resistance "to change in current direction", as a measure of the magnet core's influence on the electrical resistance in the coil wire.

The point here as I understand it, relates to the series bifilar spool's neutrality to magnet strength effecting the electrical resistance in the copper wire. This characteristic of the series bifilar connection was learned by me from engineering text, not dreamed up. This non-effect was never laboratory tested by me but something I believe to be true  as a consequence of many hours of experimentaion.  One would have to measure the resistance of the "Synchro coil" wire with and without the magnets present to confirm the proposition. This amounts to a pretty simple test, and Conradelektro should easily be able to conduct it with his removable bobbin magnet core and a multimeter.

TinselKoala

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 13958
Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
« Reply #342 on: December 22, 2013, 01:09:37 AM »
@synchro:
You really shouldn't misrepresent my videos. As I recall, around the time of that video you (I believe, perhaps it was someone else) were posting links to a page that spoke of a cylindrical coil with the Tesla bifilar connection and made incorrect claims about its energy storage, etc. I happened to have a coil with that cylindrical winding configuration lying around so I used it for the demonstration. I have always made the point in my postings that the patent 512,340 refers to a flat coil, precisely wound so that windings are parallel in the precise order listed in the patent, in order to take advantage of the increased interturn capacitance in the way that Tesla intended in the patent. The cylindrical coil used in the video preserves that property and is covered, IIRC, as a variant in the patent or in subsequent claims and usages.

Tesla never claimed it was a "zero inductance coil"!! Those are your words and indicate the depths of your misconceptions!

Quote
This characteristic of the series bifilar connection was learned by me from engineering text, not dreamed up.

Can you give a reference to the engineering text where you learned about the difference in magnetoresistance of the two windings? I'd like to see the exact explanation in the text. I think that you are misinterpreting "reluctance", "resistance", "magnetoresistance", and "inductance", because what you seem to be saying is contradicted by experiments that anyone can do, as I showed in the video you linked.

The magnetoresistance effect in copper is tiny at normal temperatures and normal magnetic field strengths.

TinselKoala

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 13958
Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
« Reply #343 on: December 22, 2013, 01:22:31 AM »
@Tinselkoala,


                   I am willing to bet you any amount of money, wiseguy, I'm very serious about this, that a single wire coil placed on the JLN hotplate will start to melt, while the Tesla serial bifilar pancake coil transfers nearly all of the hotplate eddy current inductively without gaining in heat rise. Now you can put up or shut up!
But that's not what you claimed at first. The single winding coil will need extra external capacitors in order to attain the proper total impedance for efficient power transfer, where the TBC will not: that is the whole point of the patented winding. And it's not "eddy current" that is being inductively transferred. Let's not forget, please, that I was building and demonstrating inductive power transfer systems quite a bit before JLN started playing with his inductive hotplates and reporting false overunity measurements from them.
Why would I want to make any kind of "bet" with someone who keeps moving the goalposts and who makes up their own meanings for words?

Quote
                   You're telling me that if I plug the Tesla Pancake coil into a 120 volt A.C. wall outlet that it will catch on fire too. I already tried that, so maybe you're right about something!

I'm telling you that your original claim is incorrect. If you have the right number of turns in your 120 VAC TBC you can do it safely, but that wasn't the issue in your original claim, which was, I believe, about resistance.

synchro1

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4720
Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
« Reply #344 on: December 22, 2013, 01:42:59 AM »
@Tinselkoala,


                   I understand mightily why you would a need a capacitor to reach the same resonant frequency with the single wrap coil. I understand about the resonant winding feature for the pancake!  Milehigh trashed me out about these points on the "Electromagnet" thread. Plus extra magnetic field per watt has been tested and proved over on energetic forum by compass needle at an additional 75%.


                    Your non- zero self inductance measure on the series bifilar spool was completely fraudulent and misleading in your hairpin comparison video.


                   The other point is, I already made the Ohmic resistance measurements on the magnet core series spool bifilar and tested no change in resistance. That's why it's the wrap of choice.