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Author Topic: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.  (Read 289919 times)

MileHigh

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Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
« Reply #210 on: October 19, 2013, 08:58:14 PM »
TK:

I am getting stuck on the signal coupling transformer part of the design.  I think it's because it's more difficult to couple lower frequencies though the transformer than I thought.   Note that in the AC-coupling with the capacitor, it's fairly easy to have a very long time constant.  So although the signal is "corrupted" because of the voltage droop associated with the RC time constant, you can easily make the time constant long enough so that you don't notice it at all when you look at your pulsing current waveform.

Then when I switched to the signal coupling transformer, I realized that if you had a half-ideal transformer with no resistance in the primary winding, and the op-amp could source or sink enough current, then you in theory get perfect signal integrity from input to output.   However, how long you can maintain that perfect signal integrity depends on how much current you can source or sink at your maximum output voltage.

Let's just do some number without major limits on the parameters.

Let's assume that we can source or sink 200 mlilliamperes and we want one-half second of perfect signal integrity and the resistance of the primary is zero.  We will keep the max output voltage at +/-0.25 volts.

 L = vt/i

L = (0.25 x 0.5)/0.2 = 0.625 Henries.

That seems more reasonable, but then we have to factor in the resistance of the primary winding.  That will cause an L/R time constant for the current flow.

If the resistance of the primary coil is 2 ohms, then L/R = 0.625/2 = 0.3125 seconds.  So that is shorter then 0.5 seconds but that all seems to be in the right ball park.  There is not that much "droop" over 1.5 time constants so it's a reasonable compromise.

If the current waveform is pulsing at 10 Hz and the duty cycle is 50% then the pulse is active for 50 miliseconds.  Let's use that as a baseline.  Let's say we want good signal integrity and very little perceptible L/R voltage droop for 100 miliseconds.

Initial parameters:  0.25 maximum voltage onput, very good signal integrity for 100 milliseconds, 200 milliamperes maximum current sourcing or sinking, and an L/R time constant of 150 milliseconds.

L = vt/i

L = (0.25 x 0.1)/0.2 = 0.125 Henries.

L/R = time_constant,

Therefore R = L/time_constant

R = 0.125/0.150 = 0.83 ohms

So, to meet the "10 Hertz" threshold for good isolated signal integrity on your scope display, you need the following:

Max voltage drive to the transformer of +/-0.25 volts
Op-amp that can source or sink 200 milliamperes of current
Transformer primary of 0.125 Henries
Transformer primary resistance of 0.83 ohms or less

I suppose the above or something similar where you play with the parameters would give you what you want - isolated coupling on a current sensor probe.  It's just that it's a more involved project that requires a beefier op-amp that has higher output current capabilities.  The transformer might be hard to reproduce, I'm not sure.  The low primary resistance worries me.

Oh well, perhaps this will remain a paper napkin design.  If somebody was hard core, this would all be doable.  You can shop around for an integrated amplifier power module, or perhaps even use an old car stereo amplifier.  If you can source or sink a lot more current that 200 milliamperes then you can get a break on the transformer specification and then find the transformer more easily, as an example.

Anyway, I haven't crunched timing parameters for pulse circuits in a looong time.  If I made any mistakes perhaps someone will let me know.  I am reasonably confident that I am in the right ballpark at least.

MileHigh

P.S.:  I forgot to check what the current limit would be as imposed by the coil resistance and the max voltage drive.

Max current = 0.25/0.83 = 301 milliamperes.  It's above the 200 milliampere limit of the op-amp output so it appears that it might be okay.

synchro1

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Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
« Reply #211 on: October 20, 2013, 02:58:17 AM »
@Tinselkoala,


       Run a ferrite rod with a magnet attached to the end of it into the air core of the power coil from behind.
This will cause the rotor to speed up at a certain distance into the air core. The rotor will stabilize. Now, re-time the circuit and repeat the process, by running the ferrite rod a little further into the core. This should speed the rotor up a second time, wait again for it to stabilize a second time and re-time the pulse again. This should cause constant acceleration with a decrease in input power until the ferrite core is nearly adjacent to the rotor.!  

synchro1

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Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
« Reply #212 on: October 20, 2013, 04:22:24 PM »

@Tinselkoala,

Please take another look at this video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mzNjAs3-9LA

TinselKoala

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Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
« Reply #213 on: October 20, 2013, 05:21:57 PM »
@Tinselkoala,

Please take another look at this video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mzNjAs3-9LA

Why? I find it boring and the music very obnoxious. Why don't you take a look at this video, and compare the dates.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W8S02SB-ENA

Most of my Orbette videos seem to be missing. I have several where I demonstrate and explain the effect of biasing magnets on the drive coils. But even in this video, where I am talking about the effect of the ferrite core on the _generating_ coil,  you can see that I am using biasing magnets on the drive coil, for example at 3:58 you can see the two NdBFe button magnets on the right side of the frame, stuck to the core of the toroidally wound "bead" drive coil.

You may note that I am actually _generating power_ here, from a separate coil system, not extracting it from interacting drive-sense-pickup coils wound on the same core.

You may also note that none of my videos are "monetized"... you don't have to watch ads to see them, and I get _no revenue_ when people watch them.

synchro1

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Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
« Reply #214 on: October 21, 2013, 12:26:47 AM »

@Tinselkoala,

Here's a quote from your "Orbette" youtube comment:

"Change the inductance of the coil by placing a small magnet near it. Now again compare the rotor's equilibrium speeds with and without the diode in circuit. The speeds will be different with the extra magnet than without it, and the exact amount of work that it takes to move the inductance from its former value to its new value will be seen in the change in momentum of the rotor".

You had no way to narrow the pulse width with your old "Orbette" circuit as the new inductance value changed the momentum of the rotor. Your new MHOP circuit allows you this flexability, right? How better to miser your input?

MileHigh

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Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
« Reply #215 on: October 21, 2013, 07:23:26 AM »
TK:

So now that you have done rundowns it will be interesting to see what happens next.  I am assuming that you have a system to measure the moment of inertia and the spin-down.

Measuring the power required to maintain the rotor at a given RPM is not easy.  Note that you have the sensor coil and the op-amp output giving you ticks as the rotor spins down.  And you could get some ticks if you had a thread wrapped around the rotor with a dropping weight and a pulley wheel.

I assume an Arduino wizard could write a program to crunch the data. I can only think of an old-school way to record the data.  Something like condition the signal so your sound card input could record the ticks.  You record a wav file and there is your raw data.  Then there is a bunch of processing steps to get your information.  I wonder if out there in cyberspace if some Good Samaratin has written an Arduino or other program to do that.

MileHigh

synchro1

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Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
« Reply #216 on: October 21, 2013, 03:14:33 PM »


Imagine the gain in efficiency the MHOP circuit's duty cycle reduction timing would bring to Art Porter's GAP technology.

TinselKoala

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Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
« Reply #217 on: October 26, 2013, 12:52:36 AM »
I guess it all depends on what you mean by "useful". It makes a killer power supply for my neon ring oscillators.


Rotorless MHOP, the motor with no moving parts:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z0sjqoshznU

TinselKoala

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Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
« Reply #218 on: October 26, 2013, 01:04:12 AM »
TK:

So now that you have done rundowns it will be interesting to see what happens next.  I am assuming that you have a system to measure the moment of inertia and the spin-down.
I'll eventually calculate the MoI based on the weights and dimensions of the parts and the geometry. Without a paper chart recorder, the spin-down is best measured by taking a video (for the time stamps) of the rotor alongside the Arduino tachometer display (for the second-by-second RPM value).
Quote

Measuring the power required to maintain the rotor at a given RPM is not easy.  Note that you have the sensor coil and the op-amp output giving you ticks as the rotor spins down.  And you could get some ticks if you had a thread wrapped around the rotor with a dropping weight and a pulley wheel.
I think you are making it far more complicated than it really is. The MoI and rundown data will allow the calculation of rotor mechanical power dissipation at any RPM in the operating range. The instantaneous slope of the unpowered rundown curve is the power dissipation at that instantaneous RPM (when the correct units are used.)
Quote
I assume an Arduino wizard could write a program to crunch the data. I can only think of an old-school way to record the data.  Something like condition the signal so your sound card input could record the ticks.  You record a wav file and there is your raw data.  Then there is a bunch of processing steps to get your information.  I wonder if out there in cyberspace if some Good Samaratin has written an Arduino or other program to do that.

MileHigh
Programming the Arduino tachometer to write RPM values to a file every second, say, and report it to the controlling computer over the serial line is trivial. A nice rundown curve can be generated this way nearly automatically and in realtime, by sending the data to a "processing" sketch. (What a stupid name for a programming suite. Am I talking about just processing some data, or using the program named "processing" to process the data? Dumb choice of names.)
http://processing.org/

TinselKoala

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Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
« Reply #219 on: October 26, 2013, 01:08:14 AM »

Imagine the gain in efficiency the MHOP circuit's duty cycle reduction timing would bring to Art Porter's GAP technology.

OK, I'll try really hard to do that.

It appears that Art Porter has invented the linear alternator.

synchro1

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Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
« Reply #220 on: October 26, 2013, 02:38:49 AM »
@TK,


       What's the COP of the rotorless MHOP?

Robo

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Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
« Reply #221 on: October 26, 2013, 02:46:45 AM »
This is in the wrong place I know, but is this possible or is it trickery?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c3I2zeoUbzg

TinselKoala

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Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
« Reply #222 on: October 26, 2013, 04:03:11 PM »
@TK,


       What's the COP of the rotorless MHOP?

Well... if I follow the standard practice of some of the researchers on this forum, I would say that it is over 3.2157673, and it would be up to you to Prove Me Wrong. And if you don't get numbers like that from your replication.... that only proves that you are incompetent and you aren't holding your mouth right, in addition to performing the entire experiment upside down. Your test equipment must be faulty as well; try using an Atten 200 dollar digital scope, or even a sound-card based PC scope.
After all, I've been running for days and the battery voltage is still over 12 volts each, they are still _fully charged_. Aren't they?

TinselKoala

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Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
« Reply #223 on: October 26, 2013, 04:11:57 PM »
I have "found" to many of those by accident,, or finger in the wrong place :)

I suppose what I was getting at is simple.

If you get a reduction in draw while the cap is in use, but up at a higher voltage than the system, then if you take some of the high voltage off and send it back to the source you could get something like a 10 percent or so reduction in running costs.
Yes, I actually think you are right about that.  In this design, at least, the inductive spike and the associated ringdown represents power that is lost, in that it doesn't add to the drive of the rotor, it is just dissipated as heat in the coil and mosfet and as light in the neons. By siphoning the spike out and using it for something, anything at all, you are not taking away from the mechanical drive power of the rotor, you are just taking this wasted power and putting it to use. If you put it back into the run battery, like I'm trying to do through the "run neon" connected to the battery positive pole, or by using any of the various self-charging systems like Bowling's or Bedini's or many others, you might be able to get longer battery runtimes with the same mechanical power output than from the same motor without spike recycling.

Of course, if you designed the motor and driver from the beginning not to make these spikes or to recycle them into the coil at the right timing ... you'd probably get the same increase in runtime efficiency, or even more.

synchro1

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Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
« Reply #224 on: October 27, 2013, 01:35:59 AM »
Well... if I follow the standard practice of some of the researchers on this forum, I would say that it is over 3.2157673, and it would be up to you to Prove Me Wrong. And if you don't get numbers like that from your replication.... that only proves that you are incompetent and you aren't holding your mouth right, in addition to performing the entire experiment upside down. Your test equipment must be faulty as well; try using an Atten 200 dollar digital scope, or even a sound-card based PC scope.
After all, I've been running for days and the battery voltage is still over 12 volts each, they are still _fully charged_. Aren't they?


           Negative battery electrode ground scouring from the high voltage spikes may account for any actual gain. Briefly; The high voltage charge cleanses the ground electrode of any negative charge until it's below surrounding ambience, and positive power is drawn in backwards through the negative pole. Aaron Murakami and John Bedini spent alot of time discussing this theory over at Energetic forum. The problem is that this kind of charging seems to eventually kill the lead acid type battery.