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Author Topic: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.  (Read 236154 times)

Offline MileHigh

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Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
« Reply #405 on: December 30, 2013, 09:11:58 PM »
Conrad:

For the pancake coils, about 10 cm in diameter should be fine.  You can use whatever gauge of wire you want for the pancake coils.  I would recommend that you do a regular and a bifilar coil and use the same wire.  You may want to use a smaller gauge of wire within reason so that you can get more inter-coil capacitance with the bifilar version.  For me that's not really a valid issue because my assumption is that the inter-coil capacitance will be insignificant and will not show any significant effects.  The effects of the capacitance will be so small that in many cases they will not even be measurable.

There is a fair amount of magnetic field self-cancellation in a pancake coil so I would expect that the inductance measurement would be quite low.

This is a typical case were visualization in your mind can be used as a tool.  It's easy to visualize the field of the spinning rotor magnet.  It's easy to imagine how each individual loop of the pancake coil will "see" the changing magnetic flux.  Where it gets complicated in this case is what happens when current starts to flow in the pancake coil and how do you visualize that?   A loop in the middle of the pancake has a relationship with both the smaller loops and the larger loops.  In certain regions there is magnetic field cancellation and in other regions there is magnetic field addition.  The net result is that the pancake coil has a certain inductance value and a certain field pattern.  Thankfully with the scope you can just look at the resultant waveforms and put the complicated pancake coil geometry inside a "black box."

Whatever tests you do with your regular and pancake coils, it's great that you are willing to do comparative tests.  It's really important and it would be good if all experimenters took this approach.  Will you find any differences between a regular pancake coil and a bifilar true-Tesla pancake coil?  I am assuming that you will not see any differences.

MileHigh

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Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
« Reply #405 on: December 30, 2013, 09:11:58 PM »

Offline conradelektro

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Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
« Reply #406 on: December 30, 2013, 10:25:40 PM »
@Conradelektro,
Here's what I want you to do: Remove the magnets from the bobbin, then wrap a layer of plastic dielectric tape around them. Then wrap one bifilar layer, connect the near and far end in series, attach the resistors, then play the coil back into the flutter zone you discovered and check the output! The thin layer will reduce the inductance input to practically zero, so anything you get should be from the oscillation alone. This should not have a slowing effect on the rotor. You didn't test that coil, you just failed to get it to work! I feel you owe me and the thread audience at least that much.

Synchro1, I will do that test, but it will take some time. I owe nobody nothing, but I hope that you and me will learn something from that "one bifilar layer synchro coil" test.

And I ask you to be more polite. You make very bold assumptions and far reaching statements and then you freak out if they can not be proven or if someone takes the time to explain well proven facts. The accusation that I sabotaged the test is a good example of your questionable way of thinking. You are the one who sabotages himself constantly without realising it.

Stay cool and be patient, I do the tests according to my personal schedule. There is no hurry. And there is no audience who awaits something, you take yourself and the whole discussion far too seriously.

The best thing would be that you do the tests yourself. Nobody will ever be able to do tests to your liking, your assumptions are just too far reaching.

Greetings, Conrad

Offline synchro1

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Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
« Reply #407 on: December 31, 2013, 12:36:19 AM »
@Conradelektro,

I've done the tests. The Planet is overpopulating while resources diminish. A cesium cloud from the Fukashima Daiichi fission plant in Japan caused 50,000 miscarriages in the State of California alone. You pretend everyone has plenty of time. Time is running out! Carpe Dium! This is very important work for the future of mankind, it dosen't help to trivialize it. You post phoned this experiment long enough. You've been shifting my weight and filling the space in with your pet points of view. This is a ten minuite test. You managed to stretch it out for over a period of two long weeks already. People are getting fed up with your nonchalance. You should initiate your own thread if you're going to drift off with non germane projects.


This thread is about the "pulse width clipping of the Reed switch" attached to the bifilar pulse coil face. There's an inverse power to speed ratio that takes over to spin a powerful rotor for practically nothing. The combination of the fluttering field magnet core output coil, coupled with the very low input puts the entire COP where I said it was. These claims are not exaggerated. Let's see you get some positive results for a change, the chronic cynicism is a drag! I'm supplying hope to people, don't let us down.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
« Reply #407 on: December 31, 2013, 12:36:19 AM »
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Offline Magluvin

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Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
« Reply #408 on: December 31, 2013, 08:14:23 AM »
Hey Conrad n Synchro

These bifilar coils you are testing. After you wind them, do you test them to see what freq they ring at?

Also, what is the rpm of the rotor again?  With the diametric mag, we get 1 AC cycle during one rotation.

I made a trifi coil on a 1 1/2in Ecore. 2 strands are series bifi, and 1 strand is not connected to the others. Each strand is 1.45ohm about 37ft each 26 awg.  My bifi, with core pieces tight together and bound to the bobbin(because it made a difference) rings at about 9600hz.  The capacitance between the 2  bifi strands is 3.5nf. The 3rd maybe affecting this. Whithout the closed core to increase inductance, the freq would be way up. Just a tweak of the core and I get max 10.2khz

What Im thinking is you may need a larger coil, meaning more turns, more capacitance, more inductance to get to the freq of the bifi to get an advantage.


My trifi, when I put a sq wave sig, + to the 3rd open ended lead, and the - of the sig gen to the opposite end of the bifi, the bifi produces output just because of capacitive connection in the transformer windings. But when I adjust the sq wave to 9600hz, my input is 4vpp and my output is 70v on the bifi.  My input doesnt change in or out of the freq, as the input is just charging the 3.5nf capacitance and cant input any more than that.  And the ringing is apparent at the freq even when loaded, as compared to normal transformer induction while in an off resonant/harmonic freq of the bifi. ;)   

So I think the coil or the motor needs to be matched with the other to get proper output from the bifi. Romeros motor had 9 mags per rotation I believe, and running about 1200rpm which is about 10khz. He used cores and a backing plate washer, of which Im absolutely sure could have great influence on freq of the coil. I dont think there will be any advantage unless you run the bifi at its resonant freq.

Romero used 7 strand litz.  In his last comments on hows and whats, he said to find a way to increase capacitance in the coils. And I didnt see any caps on those coils. ;)

Zeropoint132 claimed to use 4000 turns bifi of 32 and 46 awg. Self spinning sphere motor.

Romero didnt have 4000 turns I cant believe. I can only figure that he separated the strands and increased his turns and capacitance. Not sure but thats the only good guess there is. he did say he spent a huge amount of time on the coils. Other than winding them, what more work could there have been? ;)


Bifi coils of small number of turns will ring at very high freq. May be good for a power supply, but dunno about for a motor.  Would say less than 100khz for motor use. Power supplies can be in the 20khz to 500khz range.

Mags

Offline Magluvin

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Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
« Reply #409 on: December 31, 2013, 08:19:41 AM »
Also, I think it may be tuff to make a pancake bifi that will operate in the motors freq range. Were probably talking huge diameter even with fine wire. Tesla said the bifi config can be applied to any style of coils.

Mags

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Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
« Reply #409 on: December 31, 2013, 08:19:41 AM »
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Offline conradelektro

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Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
« Reply #410 on: December 31, 2013, 10:59:50 AM »
@MileHigh: thanks again for your help.

On Thursday I will buy this 12V DC motor:

http://www.conrad.at/ce/de/product/244475/Igarashi-Igarashi-Motor-mit-5teiligem-Anker-12-VDC-Leerlaufdrehzahl-244475?ref=searchDetail (the specifications should be clear even in German)

May be also this one:
http://www.conrad.at/ce/de/product/244478/Motraxx-Motor-mit-5teiligem-Anker-12-VDC-Leerlaufdrehzahl-244478/?ref=detview1&rt=detview1&rb=2

I have a variable DC power supply 1 V - 30 V (3 A max). The above first motor can be driven from 6 V to 24 V (0.35 A), the second one from 10 V to 14 V (0.25 A).

I guess the experiment with various "pick up coils under test" and a rotor (diametrically magnetised big ring magnet or cylinder magnet) driven by the above DC motor should be done like this:

- define a fixed distance of the "pick up coil under test" (its face) from the rotor (e.g. 30 mm)

- define a certain rpm under which the rotor should spin (e.g. 3000 rpm)

- put the  "pick up coil under test" at the defined distance from the rotor and make the rotor turn with the defined rpm by changing input Voltage (with the variable power supply)

- once the defined rpm of the rotor stabilises, measure the output of  the "pick up coil under test" (over a matched shunt, true RMS)

- the output of the  "pick up coil under test" and the Wattage (Volt and Ampere -> Watt) necessary to drive the rotor with the defined rpm gives an indication of the "quality of the pick up coil" (its capability to generate electricity)

- all  "pick up coils under test" which are to be compared have to be driven at the defined distance from the rotor and with the defined rpm of the rotor (and the same rotor)

Everybody interested is invited to refine this "measurement protocol".


@synchro1: The well being of the world depends only in a very very small way on you and on me. So stay calm, there is time. Be good.

Greetings, Conrad

Offline conradelektro

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Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
« Reply #411 on: December 31, 2013, 01:30:21 PM »
Specially for synchro1, some facts about Reed switches. Switching frequencies above 20 Hz will produce unexpected results. Switch time is around 50 ms.

Driving a magnet spinner with a reed switch will be problematic above 1200 rpm (20 Hz).

http://www.meder.com/fileadmin/meder/pdf/en/Technical_Documents/Parameters_of_Reed_Switch.pdf

It is not forbidden to try higher frequency switching with a Reed switch, but the results will be unpredictable. But there could be a conspiracy about 400 Hz switching with a Reed switch (24000 rpm), watch out.

Greetings, Conrad

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
« Reply #411 on: December 31, 2013, 01:30:21 PM »
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Offline synchro1

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Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
« Reply #412 on: December 31, 2013, 03:50:14 PM »
@Conradelektro,


I plan to switch your experimental comments on the Tesla Spiral over to the Tesla's "COIL FOR ELECTROMAGNETS". thread soon, where they belong. Surely you can appreciate why it makes more sense to include your current comments on this specific area into a background content of related charts and findings.


I restored the thread to the roster, and copied Milehigh's latest comment to it. Please direct the remainder of your comments about the Tesla Coil for electromagnets to the newly resurrected thread.


Thank you,


Synchro  


   

Offline synchro1

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Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
« Reply #413 on: December 31, 2013, 05:09:57 PM »
@Milehigh,

Here's what you have to say:

"In the first Igor clip you linked to, there is no BEMF looping back to the source.  The BEMF discharges though the diode".

Here's what Igor has to say in his Youtube comment:

"Just got another setup with the same idea to capture (utilize) some energy from bemf spikes (which gonna be lost anyway); it's running longer".


Here's a second quote from you:

"In the second Igor clip you can see the current consumption increase on the power supply when he showed increased output when he inserts the rod into the coil".

Here again you apparently see something there that's totally imaginary on your part, that's completely misleading and contrary to the facts represented in the video. Igor clearly states there's increased "Output current", this is over any apparent rise in input. Igor's reporting and demonstrating a gain here!

"I did some tests with bedini setup and found out that similar to TROS it might work as a breaker for magnacoaster circuit, yet, current increased by using a core with a magnet on it with opposite to rotors' magnets pole, in the way the magnacoaster used for increasing voltage AND current"


Your chronic and persistent twisting of the facts is truly revolting. You just flat out pretend Igor's results are fake. You never even conducted so much as one experiment. You're the fake! You remind me of the old Lorilard tobacco institute that maintained cigarette smoke contained vitamins.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
« Reply #413 on: December 31, 2013, 05:09:57 PM »
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Offline synchro1

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Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
« Reply #414 on: December 31, 2013, 07:35:48 PM »
Folks, take a look at this quote from Conradelektro from earlier in the thread:

"I am interested in this type of coil because I could feel this "rattle" in my fingers (which means "some strong force"), but the rotor did not slow down (the tub magnet has to be at a certain distance from the spinning magnet). That is interestingly strange. Maybe this "vibrating magnetic field" induces more current into the bifilar winding than one would expect. We will see, thank you for disclosing your observations I will try to replicate".

Ask yourselves what Conradelektro did wrong to get the failed results he posted? Practically everything I told him not to! Now he's dropped the "Synchro Coil" project cold!

Quote from Conradelektro:

"I will move on to pancake coils".

Just what went on? Does this failure of Conradelektro's have any connection to Deepcut's completely devestated web archive? Deepcut was in the midst of exactly the same experiment with me when everything of his suddenly and mysteriously grew deeply censored.

It looks to me as though Conradelektro just "Chickened out". Furthermore, we can anticipate any forthcoming results of his to be contaminated by the same brand of cowardice.

Offline MileHigh

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Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
« Reply #415 on: December 31, 2013, 08:41:31 PM »
Conrad:

The two DC motors look fine.  I am assuming that these motors will increase in speed when you increase the voltage.  At the same time the available torque is quite high.  If this is true then my assumption is that in most cases the DC motor will run at a near-constant speed for most of your testing.  Perhaps only when the pick-up coil is very close will you have to slightly increase the voltage.

Note having a nice DC motor will be very handy and you will also be able to use it in all sorts of other projects.

I read your test protocol and it looks fine.  Naturally you are free to do just about anything you want but at the same time you have a "reference spinning magnetic rotor with a fixed (or variable) RPM" that can be used to make any type of A-B comparison testing of two or more coil configurations.  You can still try different distances or RPMs if you want.  With your variable DC power supply and a nice DC motor you can do just about anything you want. That sounds like fun!

Quote
- the output of the  "pick up coil under test" and the Wattage (Volt and Ampere -> Watt) necessary to drive the rotor with the defined rpm gives an indication of the "quality of the pick up coil" (its capability to generate electricity)

You are testing the ability of the pick-up coil to convert changing magnetic flux from a fixed-RPM spinning magnetic rotor into output electrical power.  You are much less concerned about the power consumption of the DC motor.  There are some subtleties worth considering so here is long discussion below about various issues:

I don't think that measuring the power consumption of the DC motor will give you that much information.  For starters, we know ahead of time that the power consumption of the DC motor will be much greater than the output power of whatever pick-up coil configuration that you test.  I must stress again that the idea is that the magnetic rotor will be spinning at a fixed RPM but the Lenz drag on the rotor can be variable.

That means that if you just look at the spinning magnetic rotor (and ignore the DC motor) then that is a fixed-RPM device with a variable mechanical output power.  The mechanical output power of the rotor will increase as you bring the pick-up coil closer to he rotor.  That means that the electrical power consumption of the DC motor will also increase.  However, it's very important to state that you cannot compare an increase in the measured electrical output power of the pick-up coil with the increase in input electrical power consumption of the DC motor.  The DC motor is an "unknown black box" and you don't know exactly what it is doing with the input electrical power to turn it into mechanical output power.  Therefore the "safe" measurement protocol is to treat the spinning magnetic rotor as a near-constant-RPM device.  You are aware that the mechanical output power of the DC motor is equal to the mechanical output power of the spinning magnetic rotor.  However, you cannot easily measure this mechanical output power in your testing.  Ultimately this is not an issue since you only want to compare the performance of different pick-up coil configurations.  Hence the idea of the spinning rotor as a "device that spins at a constant RPM under different pick-up coil loads."  That gives you a constant-RPM reference for testing the pick-up coils.  You "do not know" what the mechanical output power is but that's okay because you don't need to know it.

I put "do not know" for the mechanical output power of the spinning rotor in quotations because you can make inferences about it.  You can assume that the mechanical output power of the rotor is equal to the thermal power dissipation in the the pick-up coil assembly.  So that goes back to what I said before:  You know the resistance of the coil itself, you know the resistance of the load resistor, and you can measure the RMS current flowing through the circuit.  So the total electrical power measurement is equal to the total thermal power dissipated and that is also equal to the average mechanical power being provided by the spinning rotor.  You also know the RPM (or angular velocity) of the rotor.  Therefor you have all of the data necessary to calculate the average torque being supplied by the DC motor to make the magnetic rotor spin.  It's interesting to note that you can't directly measure the average torque of the spinning rotor, but you can measure it with quite a bit of accuracy (probably within 1%) by simply number crunching the RMS voltage measurement from your scope display!

MileHigh

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Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
« Reply #415 on: December 31, 2013, 08:41:31 PM »
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Offline MileHigh

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Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
« Reply #416 on: December 31, 2013, 09:19:21 PM »
Synchro1:

Here is Igor's second clip again:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mzNjAs3-9LA

Look at the left digits on the power supply showing the current draw of the setup.   When Igor inserts the ferrite rod into the core of the coil tell us if you see the current increase.   When he removes the rod tell us if you see the current decrease.

Note also that he is most likely crippling the usefulness of the ferrite rod by attaching the magnets to it.  Chances are the LEDs would have gotten much brighter if he inserted the ferrite rod alone without the attached magnets.  Notice however that he never makes that test, he failed to do an A-B comparison of rod with magnets vs. rod without magnets.  Naturally without making that test there is a possibility that you could lead yourself down a garden path and make incorrect conclusions and inferences.  The more information you have to work with the better off you are and the better your understanding of your test setup.

MileHigh

Offline Magluvin

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Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
« Reply #417 on: December 31, 2013, 10:20:55 PM »
Specially for synchro1, some facts about Reed switches. Switching frequencies above 20 Hz will produce unexpected results. Switch time is around 50 ms.

Driving a magnet spinner with a reed switch will be problematic above 1200 rpm (20 Hz).

http://www.meder.com/fileadmin/meder/pdf/en/Technical_Documents/Parameters_of_Reed_Switch.pdf

It is not forbidden to try higher frequency switching with a Reed switch, but the results will be unpredictable. But there could be a conspiracy about 400 Hz switching with a Reed switch (24000 rpm), watch out.

Greetings, Conrad

Funny thing about reed switches. They have resonant freq also. :) So I would bet that the max recommended switching speeds are below any resonant freq known to the reed.  But if you find these res freq, may vary even in the same batch, then you could build the circuit around that and use the reed at its natural freq of movement.   

There are more than one freq the reed will show its colors. Below is a vid of mine that shows my  motor breaking through these areas between resonating reed freq. The coils are .45ohm not .9 ohm as stated in the vid.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B7QIpfSX_4Q

So the reeds can be used at higher freq than recommended, just not all the frequencies above recommended. ;D And Im sure there are absolute limits. These big reeds cannot compete with tiny ones when it comes to speed.

Mags

Offline conradelektro

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Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
« Reply #418 on: January 01, 2014, 12:42:26 PM »
Folks, take a look at this quote from Conradelektro from earlier in the thread:

"I am interested in this type of coil because I could feel this "rattle" in my fingers (which means "some strong force"), but the rotor did not slow down (the tub magnet has to be at a certain distance from the spinning magnet). That is interestingly strange. Maybe this "vibrating magnetic field" induces more current into the bifilar winding than one would expect. We will see, thank you for disclosing your observations I will try to replicate".

Ask yourselves what Conradelektro did wrong to get the failed results he posted? Practically everything I told him not to! Now he's dropped the "Synchro Coil" project cold!

I had no prior experience holding something that is attracted to a magnet (a piece of iron, another magnet, a coil with an iron core, a coil with a magnet stack core)  near a spinning magnet with my fingers. And if you do that you feel this "rattle" or "vibration". And this rattle and vibration increases and diminishes with the distance from the spinning magnet. And there is a certain distance where the effect is very fine (but you still feel it) and the rotor seems to stay at a stable speed. This happens because your fingers are very sensitive and the rotor speed change is not visible without very good instruments.

This "rattle" or "vibration" occurs because the spinning magnet offers a cyclical changing magnetic field to the "thing" (if it is attracted by the spinning magnet). This is also the reason why a pick up coil picks up a sine wave current and not DC.

So, I was fooled by sychro1's outrageous claims, by my inexperience and by my eagerness to detect something strange. But I am only fooled once by the same fool.

So, I made an error of judgment. But I learn from my errors.

And when building and testing my "synchro coil replication" I did everything as I understood from synchro1, no intentional falsification. And I will do his beloved "one layer synchro coil test" when I find the time. But there is no hurry. I am not a full time experimenter. It is just a hobby and I do experiments only every now and then. And I do things that I find interesting (for whatever reasons). I do not take orders from others. But I like suggestions, clarifications and corrections from others (as long as they have some real experience), because I want to learn. And believe me, I would very much like to see something extraordinary. But that is more difficult than expected. In this respect I was really naïve.

Synchro1, may be you can be less aggressive, less vindictive and less misguided by wrong concepts in 2014? Nobody is sabotaging anything or anybody. Nobody is in a conspiracy against you. Calm down, stay cool, and have a happy new year.

Greetings, Conrad

Offline conradelektro

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Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
« Reply #419 on: January 01, 2014, 05:18:26 PM »
Also, I think it may be tuff to make a pancake bifi that will operate in the motors freq range. Were probably talking huge diameter even with fine wire. Tesla said the bifi config can be applied to any style of coils.

Mags

@Mags: May be it is sufficient to wind a bifilar pancake coil which rings at a higher harmonic to the rotor frequency?

Example:

- bifilar pan cake coil rings at 12.800 Hz (50 * 256)

- rotor spins at 3000 rpm = 50 Hz (I see the 1 AC cycle for each revolution of the "diametrically magnetized spinning magnet" in my measurements)

The idea is to measure the ring frequency of the bifilar pan cake coil (with my function generator) and then to adjust the rotor speed to a lower harmonic (by varying the supply Voltage to the 12 V DC motor which I plan to use in the future to spin the magnet).

Greetings, Conrad

 

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