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Author Topic: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.  (Read 236173 times)

Offline MileHigh

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Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
« Reply #345 on: December 22, 2013, 04:37:07 AM »
Synchro1:

I still hold my view that the series bifilar coil is much ado about nothing.

Take the example of TK's clip.  If he had a second linear-wound coil made with the same wire and the same number of turns then the inductance meter would show the same reading.  So that means you are left with the minuscule capacitance in he series bifilar coil to show a "difference."

So imagine you have the two coils as per TK's clip, one regular and one series bifilar with the same build and materials, etc.  Run those two coils through a series of tests, LC resonance, self resonance, series choke, pulse response and related L/R time constant and you will be very hard pressed to see any significant differences at all.  At least that is what I believe when I crunch the two coil configurations in my head.  For the series bifilar I crunch a measurable inductance interacting with a minuscule and nearly insignificant capacitance and that's what I get.  The minuscule capacitance is simply blown away by the effects due to the inductance.  Sort of makes sense, don't you think?

Unfortunately I am not set up to do any testing.  Until I see someone do those tests it's all just talk and speculation on both sides.  However, I have explained my rationale for my statements in detail in the past.

Suppose you do the A-B comparison test and see nothing remarkable at all, the coils look and act almost the same.  So then what are your thoughts?

Then you could extend the tests to a pancake series bifilar coil, the "true Tesla coil."  Will you see significant differences from what you see above?  My guess is you will see some frequency response differences, but in the overall scheme of things they won't really and truly mean much.

I am just giving you a simple, rational analysis as I see it.  Others may have differing opinions.  Someone can run some good tests if they want to and that would answer a lot of questions.

Your far out claims about the series bifilar coil are still far out.  To put it in context, the "wondrous properties" of the series bifilar coil as it is interpreted around here are never discussed in the real world of electronics and engineering.  The concept doesn't even exist.

MileHigh

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Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
« Reply #345 on: December 22, 2013, 04:37:07 AM »

Offline synchro1

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Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
« Reply #346 on: December 22, 2013, 08:01:08 PM »

@Tinselkoala,

"Tesla explains that a standard coil of 1000 turns with a potential of 100 volts across it will have a difference of .1 volt between turns. A similar bifilar coil will have a potential of 50 volts between turns. In that the stored energy is a function of the square of the voltages, the energy in the bifilar will be 502/.12 = 2500/.01 = 250,000 times greater than the standard coil!"


How can anyone generate the same kind of potential between the windings of a single wire coil with the addition of a capacitor? You can't duplicate the performance of the Tesla pancake that way. A single wire coil doctored by you can never work as well without the potential of the Tesla pancake on JLN's hotplate. I still challenge you to a bet. 


Coil type D below, a series bifilar, produces more magnetisem:  

Offline conradelektro

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Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
« Reply #347 on: December 22, 2013, 09:46:48 PM »
Looking at the drawing synchro1 posted (the Tesla coils type A to D) I wonder if one can measure the values given there with a good LCR meter?

Santa Clause will bring me this LCR meter http://www.bkprecision.com/downloads/datasheets/87xB_datasheet.pdf

So, my question: Once I wound the "synchro coil" I will be able to hook it up to form any of the four types A to D from the drawing synchro1 posted.

Is it possible to measure directly L (Henry) R (Ohm) and C (Farad) of this coil with my new BK-879B (with no additional electronics and without destroying it)?

And if I wind a similar coil (same size, about the same number of windings) with just one wire, I think I can lay to rest the whole theoretical discussion in what way bifilar coils are better than ordinary coils.

Please give me advice. I only believe in measurements, words are just words.

Greetings, Conrad

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Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
« Reply #347 on: December 22, 2013, 09:46:48 PM »
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Offline gyulasun

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Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
« Reply #348 on: December 23, 2013, 12:07:11 AM »
Hi Conrad,

Very nice and useful-looking LCR meter indeed, its switchable test frequencies are an advantage.
Trying to answer the questions,

1) yes, your meter is supposed to measure the 'coil' types A to D, mainly for their DC resistance and inductance.
2) yes, your meter should measure directly the L and R  values of a coil, no need for additional electronics and you cannot distroy it .

Notice:  the C capacitance of  'coil' types A and B and D cannot be measured with this meter, and not with many other LCR meter, it needs a different measuring method than these meters use.  I think, you can measure the capacitance between the two bifilar coils in coil type C but of course in this case there is no L meter possibility because the meter will sense 'coil' type C as a capacitor.

There is a 35 minute demo video on your meter: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H4TP0i917Ro 

Merry Xmas to you all!

Gyula

Offline conradelektro

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Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
« Reply #349 on: December 23, 2013, 01:07:44 PM »
@Gyula: thank you for the explanation, that helps.

I searched a bit for "parasitic capacitance of a coil" and found this measurement method:

http://forum.allaboutcircuits.com/showpost.php?p=50941&postcount=6

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parasitic_capacitance

I have a signal generator, so in principle I can do it. But the bifilar coil next to the spinning magnet will only receive rather low frequencies (20 Hz = 1200 rpm to 100 Hz = 6000 rpm) and the parasitic capacitance could be ignored.

All these people talking and writing about Tesla coils (pancake, bifilar, ..), have they ever done some real measurements?

Greetings, Conrad

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Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
« Reply #349 on: December 23, 2013, 01:07:44 PM »
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Offline gyulasun

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Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
« Reply #350 on: December 23, 2013, 04:12:31 PM »
Hi Conrad,

Yes, what you found in the link as a measurement method is known as a double frequency method to get a coil's self capacitance. I agree that at the very low frequencies involved in connection with the rotating magnets, the physical sizes and number of turns used for the bifilar coils define coil capacitances which still very low values to give resonance with the coil's inductance at or near the frequencies what the rotating speed of the magnets represent, unfortunately.     

Here is a calculator for the double frequency measurement method, to ease the calculating process, hopefully it would give correct results versus your own calculations as per the formula included in your link (I did not check it): http://www.qsl.net/in3otd/inductors.html

Notice: In the link you found, the scope probe connected in parallel with the coil to be measured adds its own probe capacitance to the coil (it actually reduces the original coil resonance what the parasitic capacitance would originally define) and it is suggested that you substract the probe capacitance from the calculated value to get the actual parasitic cap for the coil.
It is okay that you will be able to measure your probe's input capacitance by your LCR meter and then substract it but perhaps you may wish to use a simply pick-up coil of a few turns to couple to your coil to be measured and watch the resonant voltage amplitudes on your scope. This way the unwanted extra capacitance from the measurement setup can be kept at a minimum (first you use a strong close coupling to ease the seaching for the resonance then you place further away the pick-up coil when you found resonance).
Here is a link http://www.g3ynh.info/zdocs/magnetics/appendix/self_res/photo/18t_Xe_1389_srf.jpg where a few turn pick-up coil is shown, albeit it is just used as a transmitting loop to excite the multiturn solenoid, it does work as a receiver antenna loop of course, the diameter of such pick-up loops could approach that of the coils to be measured and the number of turns (say 3 to 5) are not critical. You can connect the output of this pick-up coil directly to your scope input via a short (say 50cm long) piece of coax cable or say via a 1:1 scope probe. (the picture above belongs to this website: http://www.g3ynh.info/zdocs/magnetics/appendix/self_res/gallery.html )

Your BK-879B meter is able to measure Z impedance too, perhaps this feature (together with the selectable measurement frequency feature) opens some other ways to estimate parasitic capacitance of coils, just a food for thought for others reading this too.

Greetings
Gyula

Offline synchro1

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Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
« Reply #351 on: December 23, 2013, 07:09:18 PM »

@Tinselkoala and Milehigh,


Quote from Dave at Yahoo:

"The bifilar does not magnify the current.  The current follows Ohm's law and nothing special happens with it.  

I worked out the math a little more and I was wrong about increased current causing increased magnetic flux.  The magnetic flux will tend to decrease with the potential.  What actually increases is the magnetic field strength.  The magnetic field strength has a different set of dimensions than magnetic flux or magnetic field.  I'm not yet certain how to visualize magnetic field strength, but I will give it more attention.  

I'm aware of Tesla's claim about the increase in energy.  Energy is often thought of as the ability to do work.  And indeed, bifilar windings are used at metal scrap yards as electromagnets since they do more work per kwh.  But the work is in grabbing more metal per pickup.  It is questionable whether there is free energy here of just better efficiency.  At this time, I think the latter.

I've read accounts where guys found other geometrical considerations that further increase the magnetic field strength per pound of wire and for the same kwh.  But they didn't share the method.

Increased magnetic field strength occurs even though the magnetic flux likely decreases.  So it would take a different method than usual to get any kickback effect, which in turn would produce more potential.  There's room for experimentation here.  It won't be the usual transformer through turns ratio.  The inductance also decreases substantially in a bifilar coil.  You've got to stay focused on magnetic field strength if you're going to capitalize on any unique properties.

BTW, I found that flat spiral bifilars are pretty strong.  I haven't compared the flat spiral bifilar to a solenoid bifilar on a pound per pound of wire basis, though.  That's something I need to do.  That might be one of the tricks used by the guys at scrap yards for winding their coils".

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Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
« Reply #351 on: December 23, 2013, 07:09:18 PM »
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Offline synchro1

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Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
« Reply #352 on: December 23, 2013, 08:48:33 PM »
I think it's time to redirect everyone's attention to the topic of this thread; I witnessed unexplained hyper acceleration of a diametric magnet rotor up to 50k rpm's with a reed switch attached to the face of a thread spool series bifilar coil.

I choose to use this bifilar wrap for specific reasons as an output coil too, after spending sufficient time researching it's characteristics. Dave in the quote above states that the magnetic flux decreases while the magnetic field strength increases in the coil. Magnetic flux is measured in Webers and field strength in Teslas.

I noticed that while under power, the diametric flux field from the spinning rotor increases, while the attraction to the magnet rotor decreases. Dave says the same kind of inverse relationship holds true for the Tesla bifilar under power! These are very important inter relationships, and have a bearing on both the unexplained acceleration and output effects this thread currently has under testing and exploration.

The power portion of my precision ceramic bearing alternator ran cost free and cold, as I maintained , with no input power whatsoever detectable by me on my amp meter at top end! The output portion of the alternator use's  the same bifilar coil and exhibits the performance I already detailed in the thread. let me restate that it's the same bifilar coil's awesome performance on the power side that I initiated this thread to help explain.

Re-quote from Dave about the Tesla series bifilar:

"The magnetic flux will tend to decrease with the potential.  What actually increases is the magnetic field strength".

The inverse flux field to magnetic strength relationship of this coil is a critical factor in understanding it's anomalous effects. This is what I have been able to deduce so far: The Tesla series bifilar power coil  looses magnetic flux and gains magnetic strength as it powers up, while the diametric magnet rotor apparently works just the opposite, loosing magnetic strength and increasing it's magnetic flux field as it accelerates.


Following the assumption that the Tesla series bifilar is somehow producing extra magnetic strength per watt, one can envision why the magnet rotor would begin to run away under it's own steam. The magnet flux from the accelerating rotor begins feeding the magnet strength of the coil at a greater then 1:1 ratio. This causes the series bifilar coil to manufacture more magnetic field strength then the magnet rotor had standing still. Up around 25 or 30 thousand r.p.m, the accrued force takes over and accelerates the magnet rotor with hyper velocity. It takes a few minutes to build up to 25k, then the rotor hits 50k in a matter of seconds. Physical constraints limit the upward speed.


Tinselkoala questioned me about my ratio comparison of negative micro henries and decreased inductance in Tesla's serial bifilar coil. I hope this will help him better understand the dynamics behind my description


     
« Last Edit: December 24, 2013, 01:13:51 AM by synchro1 »

Offline synchro1

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Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
« Reply #353 on: December 24, 2013, 01:12:14 AM »
@Tinselkoala,

You produced a video comparing the flat spiiral coil to the the Tesla Pancake. Both coils were attached to the same plexiglass frame. The experiment we need for you to perform is to determine which coil has more magnetic field strength by picking up iron filings on each end with same power, and weighing them to see if they pick up the same amount of filings in weight or if one side picks up more then the other. Would you be willing to perform this experiment for us please?

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Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
« Reply #353 on: December 24, 2013, 01:12:14 AM »
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Offline MileHigh

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Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
« Reply #354 on: December 24, 2013, 01:23:54 AM »
Synchro1:

It's the holiday season so it's taking my postings a while to appear.  The "hyper acceleration" is explainable if you are good with a set of scope probes.  Constructing a timing diagram would be a big help also.

Quote
"The magnetic flux will tend to decrease with the potential.  What actually increases is the magnetic field strength".

That's pretty much a nonsensical statement that you quoted.  There is a "coil understanding gap" somewhat akin to a generation gap.  I don't have a solution for that.

You should try to grock this:  A coil is like a flywheel where the voltage corresponds to the torque and the current corresponds to the angular velocity.  The size of the coil is like the size of the flywheel.

In most cases for a coil you actually don't even have to think about the magnetic field which may be a shocker.  The only things that you have to worry about are the inductance, the voltage, and the current.  When is the last time you saw somebody worried about the electric field inside a capacitor?

You can try to grock this:   Think of a big fire hose that is formed into what looks like a big electrical coil that's 10 feet in diameter and has 200 turns.  Imagine a high rate of water flow through the hose.  So you are looking at what effectively is a big cylinder of circulating (looks like rotating) water.  It might be a ton of water in motion that is inside the coiled hose.  Can you envision what would happen if you suddenly closed the exit valve of the hose?  Can you see a resemblance to a coil there?  Hint:  Water flow rate is like current and water pressure is like voltage.

MileHigh

Offline MileHigh

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Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
« Reply #355 on: December 24, 2013, 04:00:26 AM »
Synchro1:

Following up on your comments about magnetic field strength of a coil, it's all in the ampere-turns.  It was already discussed a long time ago.  A series bifilar and a regular coil with the same number of turns will generate approximately the same strength of magnetic field.  You can find it all proved in books and online and in YouTube clips.

Here is the real thing!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4c6fRmyh4q8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZBXVuHpUucc

Note the formula for the magnetic field strength of a coil is B = u0ni,  where n is the turn density per unit length of coil.

So the real way to get a stronger magnetic field from a coil is to increase the turn density and push higher current through it.  The way to do that is to make a coil that has many layers of turns one on top of the other.  You can buy a roll of speaker wire and you have an instant coil with many layers of turns one on top of the other.  If you buy a large spool of a small gauge wire and then put a good ferromagnetic core in the center you will have a very strong electromagnet.  You just have to increase the voltage to the coil to overcome the DC resistance of the wire.  You also have to monitor the temperature of a coil like that if you push it.  The inner layers of the coil are in their own semi isolated thermal environment and could get really really hot.

You note it has nothing to do with the regular or series bifilar coil configuration.  It's all in the turn density and the current flow.

MileHigh

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Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
« Reply #355 on: December 24, 2013, 04:00:26 AM »
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Offline synchro1

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Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
« Reply #356 on: December 24, 2013, 02:34:57 PM »
@Tinselkoala,

Here's an excellent video on the "Law of Laplace":

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wvScSTbly1c&list=PL62433DB6D0A09218&index=17

This video demonstrates the effect of passing current through a magnetic field on a conductor. The Tesla bifilar neutralizes this effect; Hence there is "Zero reluctance to change in current direction", unlike the single conductor in this video. The strict engineering terms you requested of me can be simply stated as; "The Tesla series bifilar neutralizes Laplace's law"! The coil measures no inverse Henries.

                          The units for magnetic reluctance are inverse Henries, H–1.
« Last Edit: December 25, 2013, 01:02:04 AM by synchro1 »

Offline synchro1

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Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
« Reply #357 on: December 24, 2013, 03:46:09 PM »
Can anyone please try and explain to me why no one else on this web site can get this simple experiment to work right?

http://www.tesla-coil-builder.com/bifilar_electromagnet.htm

Have another look at this video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9mxtwS2OsaA


I challenge anyone to competently demonstrate the presence of inverse henries or the absence of increased magnetic field strength in the Tesla series bifilar!
« Last Edit: December 25, 2013, 01:03:26 AM by synchro1 »

Offline synchro1

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Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
« Reply #358 on: December 24, 2013, 06:04:43 PM »
All Tesla's laboratory notes along with his original patents were confiscated by the United States Government, after Tesla's death. They were either censored or redacted then re-released to the public. Tesla's patent for his "Coil for Electromagnets" was one of the patents heavily censored and reworded. This coil is and always has been overunity the entire time. That's why no where in this patent for an electromagnet can anyone find any reference to electromagnetism. However, this patent was already purchased by Westinghouse, and appeared in scrap yards where the secret was closely guarded under watchful eyes! That's why there is hardly anything to be found about those kinds of electromagnets in the historical archives.
   
« Last Edit: December 25, 2013, 02:14:31 AM by synchro1 »

Offline conradelektro

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Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
« Reply #359 on: December 25, 2013, 05:51:12 PM »
Tesla's patent for his "Coil for Electromagnets" was one of the patents heavily censored and reworded. This coil is and always has been overunity the entire time. That's why no where in this patent for an electromagnet can anyone find any reference to electromagnetism.

I challenge anyone to competently demonstrate the presence of inverse henries or the absence of increased magnetic field strength in the Tesla series bifilar!

@Synchro1:

Bifilar Tesla coil is OU: How would you prove (by doing what kind of measurements) that a "bifilar Tesla coil" is "over unity"?

Bifilar Tesla coil and magnetism: Once I am back home near my lab I will try to measure the "increased magnetic field strength" of a bifilar winding over a soft iron core (nail) and over a Ferrite core (I have some 10 mm diameter Ferrite rods). I think I have all the materials needed and will do it more or less like in the video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9mxtwS2OsaA you mentioned, but with a laboratory power supply instead of a battery and an Ampere-meter to see the real DC power demand in both cases (100 windings mono-filar versus 50 windings bifilar). I have very good scales, (electronic letter scales) which can weigh 1/10 of a gram, to measure the pick up weight by both "electromagnets".

Synchro1 you are making some pretty strong statements. It would be better to back up these opinions by real experiments than by words. There is a lot of Tesla-lore and Tesla-hype out there repeated over and over again by people who never produce anything tangible. So, pointing to questionable sources it not of much help.

Let's do real experiments instead of throwing words around.

Greetings, Conrad

 

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