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Author Topic: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.  (Read 221129 times)

Offline MileHigh

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Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
« Reply #120 on: October 09, 2013, 02:35:14 PM »
Conrad:

Sorry, I didn't specify the setup.  When I say "output power" I am referring to capturing the coil current discharges into a charging battery.

The power measurement would be displayed on the digital multimeter.  You set your digital multimeter to measure DC volts but what you will see on the display is input or output watts.  It's just a little "trick" and tricks are fun.

For a pulse motor, I almost never think about the mechanical output power.  The torque is very weak and how often do we see people using the mechanical output power from a pulse motor?  The line from the Bedini enthusiasts that say "when you factor in the mechanical output power from the motor you get over unity" is nonsense.

To be sober and a realist for a second, most pulse motors are just built for the fun of building them.  They are super inefficient battery chargers and if you want to desulfate a battery with inductive current pulses you may as well do that all solid state - that will be way more efficient.

MileHigh

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Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
« Reply #120 on: October 09, 2013, 02:35:14 PM »

Offline Lakes

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Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
« Reply #121 on: October 09, 2013, 02:39:58 PM »
TK:

Need some new project ideas?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VlOxlSOr3_M
Haha, very good setup, no wonder its 15 million views.

Offline MileHigh

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Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
« Reply #122 on: October 10, 2013, 02:32:11 AM »
 8)

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Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
« Reply #122 on: October 10, 2013, 02:32:11 AM »
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Offline TinselKoala

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Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
« Reply #123 on: October 10, 2013, 02:43:17 AM »
I'm not going to answer your "mystery circuit" with the gain-controlling feedback loop....   ;)

But I am going to link this new video showing the start and stop strobe LED effects. I was too lazy to build the 556 dual pulse shortener so I just put in a DPDT switch instead, and you can see the two strobes sequentially instead of simultaneously.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6amIEYDDFOM

Offline MileHigh

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Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
« Reply #124 on: October 10, 2013, 02:59:41 AM »
That clip was so awesome that I almost had a seizure!  lol  When you moved the sense coil and you could see the the strobe tracking of the sense coil movement, it was uber awesome.  We went from my head to your build and we skipped the napkin!  (You get full credit for starting/trailing strobes!)

über fantastisch!

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Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
« Reply #124 on: October 10, 2013, 02:59:41 AM »
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Offline MileHigh

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Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
« Reply #125 on: October 10, 2013, 03:17:48 AM »
Supposing that you decided that you wanted to have a voltage waveform averaging filter.... One way to do that is where you connect an AC voltage source to a resistor, and that connects to a capacitor that goes to ground.  The voltage that you would get at the junction of the resistor and the capacitor would be the average of the AC voltage waveform supplied by the voltage source if you provide enough filtering.

So, supposing that we want to use a resistor that is 1K ohm.  Supposing that we decide that if our filtering time constant is one second, then when the pulse motor is running at a normal speed then the averaging of some kind of mystery voltage waveform from the pulse motor will be excellent.

What we are really saying is that we want R x C = 1 second.

Therefore C = 1 / R.

Therefore C = 0.001 Farads.   That equals 1000 uF, which is a pretty standard electrolytic cap hat just about anybody should  have.  Likewise, just about anybody should have a 1K ohm resistor.

Connect the dots.....................

Offline MileHigh

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Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
« Reply #126 on: October 10, 2013, 04:10:04 AM »
TK:

Now that you are in possession of the most flexible pulse motor I have have ever seen on YouTube, I will give you my thoughts on getting the highest RPM per input watt ratio.  In other words, not looking for highest RPM, instead looking for highest electrical efficiency to produce RPMs.  Standard disclaimer that I am not asking you to do this.

Permit me to discuss this in terms of a repulsion motor, but everything I will state applies equally to an attraction motor.

Also, we are going to "forget" about the energizing time constant of the drive coil and any possible influences on that energizing time constant by the passing rotor magnets.  This is just to make the discussion simpler.

So if you switch on the drive coil at top-dead-center it's useless to you.  You are not applying any torque to the rotor at TDC.

Likewise, if you switch on the drive coil at +45 degrees after TDC, that also useless for the same reason.  You are not applying any torque to the drive coil.

Somewhere in between there is a "torque sweet spot."

So, with your 10-turn potentiometer you can dial up any coil energizing pulse width (a.k.a conduction angle) you want.  Then, by changing the angular position of the sense coil, you can move that coil energizing pulse around and hunt for the "torque sweet spot" by checking your RPM.  You can also experiment with the width of the energizing pulse and hunt for the sweet spot and see how efficient you can make the pulse motor.

In theory, there is a "sweet energizing pulse with" and a "sweet angle past TDC" that lines up with the physical torque sweet spot that corresponds to how the energized coil and the rotor magnets interact.  i.e.; the good old repulsion between a magnet and an electromagnet.

Then, there is just a dumb brute force reality check.  Switch the coil on 100% of the time by changing the potentiometer setting.  Then take the rotor in your hand and hold the rest of the motor down with your other hand and simply feel for the angle with the most torque.  That will be were the sweet spot is.  In theory your "hunt" for the sweet spot by running the motor as described above, and the angle you feel with your brute force reality check, should correspond.

MileHigh

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
« Reply #126 on: October 10, 2013, 04:10:04 AM »
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Offline Pirate88179

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Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
« Reply #127 on: October 10, 2013, 05:36:34 AM »
MH:

I agree but,  (always a but) does the frequency not have to increase also or, in TK's set-up, does that happen automatically like in a Bedini motor?  In other words, on mine, I have to change the vr's to get it to accelerate.  This can be done continually until it reaches the max rpm for that configuration.

Perhaps you can explain this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LfprTzG5SY4

I never was able to figure out why this happened the way it did.  Some folks on Youtube offered their opinions which may, or may not have been correct.

This probably has nothing to do with TK's motor and for that, I am sorry.  (But it might)

Bill

PS  I had mounted the coil on a threaded rod assembly such that I could, with some precision, move the coil's position to the rotor.  I had already found the "sweet spot" in my earlier videos.

Offline TinselKoala

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Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
« Reply #128 on: October 10, 2013, 05:56:55 AM »
Hey Bill, this whole discussion is kind of a "hijack" of the original thread on reed-switched magnet spinner, and I apologize for that. I would ask a moderator to transfer all this to a new thread but I don't have the foggiest idea how.

Maybe we should just start a new thread and carry on the MHOP discussion there.

Your little motor is really cooking! I don't have any idea why it is doing what it does with your resistance changing. What kinds of explanations did people give you?


MH, your AC voltage integrator is great... but will it work for a spiky, pulsed DC signal too? But I'm not sure if it is applicable here because any power taken off will be through a diode and put onto a big cap anyway, and there are losses in that process for sure.

And your explanation of the torque point is good, for the max RPM case under no load. I'm not sure if the same timing and dwell parameters will apply to the loaded rotor though, since it will stabilize at a slower speed.

I've made a new video showing the waveforms and how they change with setpoint setting; it's being processed and uploaded now, should be ready in an hour or so.


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Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
« Reply #128 on: October 10, 2013, 05:56:55 AM »
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Offline Pirate88179

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Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
« Reply #129 on: October 10, 2013, 06:10:42 AM »
TK:

Thanks for your understanding.

A fellow named Drevetoobe offered the following explanation:

 "I'll take a stab at an explanation. For starters the motor is exhibiting "metastability", there are multiple speeds where everything stabilizes. That's were the electrical power coming from the coil is in balance with the mechanical power being burned off in the spinning rotor.
When you start to increase the resistance, less power is being burned off in the pick-up coil. This means there is more power left over to go towards spinning the rotor and it speeds up.
Now that you are spinning faster, the main drive coil is on less time, and the inductor's natural resistance to change in current is giving you another opportunity to add more power. If you can provide more voltage for a longer time you can pump a bit more power through the coil. So you lower the resistance again and the coil is on for a slightly longer time and the speed creeps up. And so on. Every time the motor stabilizes it is running at a new metastability point. A reasonable guess."

I did this video back in 2009 and it makes me feel a lot better that you are not sure (right away) why this worked the way it did.  It has always bugged me.  Oh, input was 12v in case it was not mentioned in this video.  (I started with a 9v battery in the first videos)

Also, I think that if that fellow's explanation above were correct, then I could do this again (3rd gear) and again (4th gear) etc.  But 2nd gear was all I could get out of it.

Thanks again,

Bill


Offline Magluvin

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Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
« Reply #130 on: October 10, 2013, 06:34:35 AM »
MH:

I agree but,  (always a but) does the frequency not have to increase also or, in TK's set-up, does that happen automatically like in a Bedini motor?  In other words, on mine, I have to change the vr's to get it to accelerate.  This can be done continually until it reaches the max rpm for that configuration.

Perhaps you can explain this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LfprTzG5SY4

I never was able to figure out why this happened the way it did.  Some folks on Youtube offered their opinions which may, or may not have been correct.

This probably has nothing to do with TK's motor and for that, I am sorry.  (But it might)

Bill

PS  I had mounted the coil on a threaded rod assembly such that I could, with some precision, move the coil's position to the rotor.  I had already found the "sweet spot" in my earlier videos.

Dang Bill. That thing screams.  :o ;)   I believe I can see the tape bulging outward from the centrifugal force of the magnets. ;D Gorilla tape is very tough. 2 layers around and I wouldnt worry much. Dab a bit of super glue at the edge of the last wrap to ensure that it wont flap out and slap the coil, ever.  ;)   Or fiberglass a ring around the outside of the rotor.  I dont usually point these things out, except for motors that move like yours. ;)

I had a speedup thing similar to yours, where my 2/12in reeds have resonance at certain freq. The rotor would build up and start to level off and then zing up higher, then level off again and then another step higher. So maybe your coil is doing something similar. Even if it is bifi and one coil is just for pickup, there could be capacitive effects at certain freq.  Do you have a scope?

Thanks for showing.  ;)

Mags

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Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
« Reply #130 on: October 10, 2013, 06:34:35 AM »
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Offline TinselKoala

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Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
« Reply #131 on: October 10, 2013, 07:04:29 AM »
I'm not sure Drevtoob's explanation is really an explanation, it's more like just a redescription of the phenomenon. Magluvin is at least trying to say why it happens, and with a reed switch all kinds of crazy things like mechanical resonances can come into play.

But I dunno. I suspect the transistor, somehow. I've found that all 2n3055s are definitely not created equal, especially these days with substandard dies from China.


Meanwhile, the new video will be up shortly at
http://youtu.be/qSjcP55msAg

ETA: It's up now.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qSjcP55msAg

Offline Pirate88179

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Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
« Reply #132 on: October 10, 2013, 07:05:54 AM »
Mags:

Thanks.  Those magnets are first superglued, then epoxied around the edges and then like 5 turns of the vinyl tape over the top.  I screwed up on this Bedini design by placing all of the magnets with the south facing out instead of north.  I used Lidmotor's "transformer" bifilar Bedini coil which is basically using all of the mag wire in the top 2 of the 3 pack Radio Shack mag. wire pack.  The thinner wire, 28 ga. I think? is quite a bit longer and Lidmotor decided to use all of it so we have much more of the thinner wire as in a transformer.

Yes, I have a Tek 2013 but I am not very good with it and I am always afraid of hooking up to any of my device for fear of frying it somehow.  This motor as you saw in that video has fried 3 sets of vr's since I built it.  I tried to find heavier ones to no avail.  Sad to say, the 12 volt bats I bought for it have since died and no longer take a charge of any kind.  I recycled them.  This may be par for the course as MH says with these motors or, it could be because of my altered parameters, but I sure had fun building it.  It still sits on my coffee table.

This is nothing like what TK is doing except that I thought that possibly the altering of the resistance for increased rpm might play a part.  Glad to hear you saw something similar.

I estimated (by pitch) the rpm of this one to be about 12,000 rpm WAG.  (Wild Ass Guess)
My JohnnyDavro replications were much faster.  (Scary fast)

Bill

Offline TinselKoala

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Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
« Reply #133 on: October 10, 2013, 08:08:22 AM »
Bill, is your scope a plain 2213, or a 2213a like mine? Outside they are the same, but inside, the 2213a has the attenuator/preamp system that corresponds to the 2215, and it turns out it's pretty easy to fix if it gets popped. I recently blew the input fet and PIN diode on one channel... the only hard part of the fix was locating a replacement diode. The NTE555A is the only PIN diode I could find, but while I waited for it I just used a regular small signal diode in there. The JFET I used was just a common MPF102,  and after following the calibration process in the 2215 service manual, all is good again.

ETA: Now I remember that the atten knobs have to be removed to get the attenuator board out, and the switch itself taken apart because the diode is underneath it. But it's easy, only needs one Allen wrench and a screwdriver and nothing goes flying out.

Offline MileHigh

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Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
« Reply #134 on: October 10, 2013, 02:29:18 PM »
Bill:

Big speed, is your rotor based on the bearing for the spinning tape heads from a VCR?  For a small pulse motor that's probably one of the best ways to go.  You can probably get a VCR for $5 at the Sally Ann or a recycling center these days.

The real answer would be found out with your scope.  Perhaps it's related to the turn-on turn-off feedback mechanism in the drive coil pulse for a conventional Bedini motor.  Suppose at low speed there are 10 pulses per magnet pass and as the rotor speeds up that goes down to say three pulses.  But those three pulses are skinny, and as you play with your pots you "fatten" those pulses and as a result the rotor speeds up some more.  Something like that.

It's arguable that when you play with a pulse motor and just measure the average current consumption and the RPM those are the "symptoms" and the pulse motor is just a black box.  The "causes" are what's going on inside the black box, to be discovered with your scope.

I will repeat again, a pulse motor is just an exercise in how signals react in time.  It's pretty much the same for any electronic circuit, they are all based on timing.  How well is your transistor working?  Why is your transistor hot?  Why is your transistor blowing?  Why does one type of transistor work well and why does another type of transistor suck in the same circuit?  All of these questions are answered with your scope and analyzing what is happening with respect to time.   Perhaps dozens and dozens of times I have suggested to experimenters that they use their scope to investigate and construct a timing diagram on paper for their circuit and it never happens.  It's frustrating but that's just the way it is.

Think of all of Sterling's 39 (or whatever the count is now) alleged free energy motor-generator systems that supposedly "harness the wheel work of Nature."  There is no reason that you couldn't construct timing diagrams for each and every one of them.  If they were real, the proud inventor should be able to point to a pulse on the timing diagram and say, "This pulse is precisely where the over unity is manifesting itself."

MileHigh

 

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