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Author Topic: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.  (Read 187018 times)

Offline synchro1

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Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
« on: September 30, 2013, 07:47:45 PM »

Quote from Energetic Forum:



"Here is whats happening with reed switch

1. Strength of magnet is very low, just to activate the reed switch. Once its activated, the circuit is in ON state hence transistor charges up the coil.

2. When coil is charged up, it creates a magnetic field, which is opposite to the magnet pole that is facing towards reed switch, And this electromagnetic field is way more strong than magnet. Hence its turns off the reed switch by pulling it opposite side.

3. When reed switch is OFF, the circuit is OFF, hence coil collapse and radiant is captured in battery, but at the same time the magnetic field of magnet is now stronger because there is no electromagnetic field here any more, SO the reed switch is ON again and Coil turns it off once charged

**Note, You must place the magnet facing opposite pole towards the coil, you have to find out the exact pole that activate oscillation, e.g if coil is charging up as South pole, the magnet should be facing North towards reed switch

Above three steps are repeating again and again with a very high frequency, probably automatically adjusted. It gives very sharp pulses and very much strong voltage output. I can get purple light on reed switch all the time but this may blow out the transistor within seconds" 


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Offline synchro1

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Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
« Reply #1 on: September 30, 2013, 07:55:42 PM »
The above quote is from Energetic forum. What I realized from his explanation is that the mach speeds  I witnessed resulted from the kind of oscillation between the electro magnetic coil field and the magnet. My switch is simply hot wired to the battery, not to a transistor base. I can assure everyone the addition of the Bedini circuit is retroverted.


Look at where his Reed switch is in comparison to mine above. Below is the spinner the coil and reed switch cap over. I fished for the reed switch sweet spot with a lasertach and amp meter. I did not arrive at it empiracly. My theory's belated.


The speed up is accompanied by a drop in input perhaps due to a shortened pulse width? This setup's rpm's exceed the rated switching speed for the reed switch. I believe there's perhaps a doubling of speed effect when the magnet skips over the switch. The other point the autor makes is that the coil sends BEMF back to the power source. The power generated by the spinner in the power coil must cancel or equal the input with the advantage of Lenz delay. Super fast, cold with an oscillating  plasma arc across the reed switch points.


The author sums it up here:



"3. When reed switch is OFF, the circuit is OFF, hence coil collapse and radiant is captured in battery, but at the same time the magnetic field of magnet is now stronger because there is no electromagnetic field here any more, SO the reed switch is ON again and Coil turns it off once charged".


So the power coil begins to "CLIP" the pulse with the reed switch in this position by turning the reed switch off ahead of time before the magnet does, like an Ozzie motor! The Ozzie motor is virtually self running. We can see the same pulse clipping in effect in this simple version. So it automaticly keeps shortening it's own pulse duration. The Ozzie motor runs with two reed switchs at a very slow rpm. One of Ozzie's reed switches shuts the current off.  This, based on the same principle goes ballistic for close to nothing with merely one reed switch that's grown dual purposed.


This PVC model is designed to house Lenz free bifilar pancake output coils with ferrite toroid cores like Skycollection designed positioned in the base of the PVC coupling or pancke output coils with magnet cores that induce Lenz acceleration. The spinner  rpm is way above the 28k Lenz delay threshold speed. This core positioned reed oscillator would make a very powerful safe and dependable motor alternator coupled with phase shifted output coils..
« Last Edit: October 01, 2013, 01:14:25 AM by synchro1 »

Offline synchro1

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Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
« Reply #2 on: October 01, 2013, 12:30:25 AM »
Consider the sequence of events with an air core coil centered reed switch: The magnet face closes the reed switch points, the coil charges and almost instantly kills itself off when the reed switch points are drawn apart by the coil's magnetisem. This scenario differs widely from the one where the magnet face keeps the reed switch points closed through the full transit of the rotor, extending the pulse duration dramatiacly. The power consumption ratio must vary by an enormous amount!


The sensitivity of the reed switch might keep the power coil from reaching full charge allowing for a higher discharge and recharge rate like a capacitor discharge rate bell curve would describe. Peak efficiency and maximum rpm result from this setting. The core centered polarity placed reed switch acts as a pulse trimmer and a power switch! Super speed brings additional relativistic effects to the setup that defy adequate explanation.

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Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
« Reply #2 on: October 01, 2013, 12:30:25 AM »
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Offline TinselKoala

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Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
« Reply #3 on: October 01, 2013, 01:51:45 AM »
You are deluding yourself if you really believe that there are any relativistic effects happening.
What you have invented there is a reed-switch killer. A proper Hall-effect sensor circuit switching the right mosfet or IGBT will outperform the reed switch in terms of switching speed, and proper design and layout will preserve the inductive collapse spikes so that you can do with them what you will.

Put a small ceramic capacitor right across the contacts of the reed switch and it will last a lot longer. Of course you won't see it flashing plasma in there...



Offline synchro1

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Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
« Reply #4 on: October 01, 2013, 02:15:26 AM »

@Tinselkoala,


                   Thanks for the advice. You helped point the importance of the reed switch oscillation out in one of your prior posts, but I just realized over the past week that the kill side was important.




Here's my Depalma weight gain video: The scale is reverse weighted, so it actually drops to 249 when it's stoped.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t_atlyEC7o4[/size]

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Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
« Reply #4 on: October 01, 2013, 02:15:26 AM »
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Offline MileHigh

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Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
« Reply #5 on: October 01, 2013, 02:31:05 AM »
TK:

Something I have never seen and it puzzles me why no one has done it.  I figure the desire is to have a coil firing pulse with as sharp an edge as possible (in both directions) with full control over the pulse width and the starting angle relative to top-dead-center is what you want.  And you want to do it cheaply and easily and in the analog domain.

There must me a little $2 op-amp chip out there.   Power it from the source 12-volt battery.  I would have an independent pick up coil on a stand that you could move around.  So you fire the pulse from an alternate magnet on the rotor.  Your pick-up coil output connects to the + input of the op-amp and you have a 100K potentiometer to dial the voltage on the - input of the op-amp.  (Tie one side of the pick-up coil to a simple resistor voltage divider and a filtering cap at about +6 volts.)  The output from the op-amp is going to either be very close to ground or very close to +12 volts.  So you use that to fire your IGBT or MOSFET or transistor.  I would also run the op-amp output to a simple transistor voltage-follower to power a bright LED that strobes the rotor.  So you paint some white lines in the right places on the rotor and that's your rotary strobe to observe the pulse timing.  So you don't even need a scope.

So ultra clean fast switching and fully variable pulse timing to hunt for the sweet spot and throw in a strobe for free.  All this for less than $8.  Plus you can't forget the "exotic" pulse width control with a potentiometer.  A boss machine.

MileHigh

PS:  Perhaps instead of running off the source battery voltage you run the whole thing off a regulator chip at say 9 volts.  Just to stay away from the battery when the voltage output starts to choke.

Offline totoalas

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Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
« Reply #6 on: October 01, 2013, 02:31:35 AM »
lo generator  in YT
he's using the ferrite rod as negative path instead of end of coil from positive source   and the induction of the coil closes the circuit
in his channel   where a reed switch simulation is shown also
totoalas :)

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Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
« Reply #6 on: October 01, 2013, 02:31:35 AM »
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Offline forest

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Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
« Reply #7 on: October 01, 2013, 10:03:51 AM »
Definately the sharp spike is one of the keys, and Tesla method of placing capacitor around the interrupter is the solution....but I'm having problems with capacitors, commonly used are not good enough because voltage rise too high and could damage them if switching time is not fast enough to lower tension (voltage) across them. But  I can say once in 2004 I accidentally combined the proper ingredients and got it working nice with 25V rated electrolytic cap in resonant circuit. Unbelievable....


Offline TinselKoala

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Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
« Reply #8 on: October 01, 2013, 04:59:40 PM »
@Synchro:
thanks, yes, I think I also pointed out some time ago about biasing or tuning the reed switch with an external magnet on the other side from the actuating magnet (works with Hall sensors too)...

It is notoriously difficult to weigh magnets accurately. There are problems with just about every kind of weighing system that cause them to give inaccurate weights when you try to weigh a permanent magnet or working electromagnet. When you start adding rotation of parts or oscillating fields to the mix it becomes even more difficult. I'd need to see the _same_ degree of weight loss/gain from at least three _different_ weighing systems to be able to believe a weight gain/loss from a magnet system with moving parts. And then I'd need to construct a special apparatus or two to add yet other weighing methods for confirmation. I've done a few DePalma-type experiments myself, it was one of the things we were very interested in at a former employer's laboratory years ago.

@MileHigh:
I replied to your idea in another thread. I think it's a good one and I'll probably try it, if I can find the Bedini rotor in this pile of junk. At least I know where the op-amp chips are....

@Forest:
The cap to protect reed switch, relay, or motor commutator contacts should be a high-quality ceramic capacitor of high-voltage rating, 1 kV or better, with a low capacitance value (best found by experimentation.) It should be located as close as possible to the reed contacts themselves to minimize inductance in the cap wiring.
A good reed switch is a relatively expensive component, and all reed switches have limited lifetimes. They aren't really designed for switching inductive loads at high frequencies directly. Using a reed to switch a fast mosfet's gate voltage, letting the mosfet do the heavy lifting, is better for the reed's longevity but then you lose the "magic" of the noisy, jittery, contact-burning arcing reed.

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Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
« Reply #8 on: October 01, 2013, 04:59:40 PM »
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Offline synchro1

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Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
« Reply #9 on: October 02, 2013, 11:10:49 PM »
@Tinselkoala,


                    I think your new op amp test motor would be a strong contender for RWG's pulse motor build off prize this year. I'm looking forward to seeing your new design perform.

Offline TinselKoala

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Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
« Reply #10 on: October 03, 2013, 07:33:05 AM »
I don't think there's time for this year's contest, and I'm wrapped up in something else right now anyway. But when I have a little time and benchspace I'll see if MH's idea can be made to work, using the rotor/axle assembly from my Bedini SGM.
I especially like the "autostrobe" idea. I am using something like that in my Arduino Pulse Motor driver program, but that's still a work in progress and it's simmering on a back burner right now.


The site www.fasttech.com has all kinds of breakout sensor modules for Arduino, and I think I saw a couple of reed switch breakout boards listed there.

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Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
« Reply #10 on: October 03, 2013, 07:33:05 AM »
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Offline MileHigh

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Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
« Reply #11 on: October 03, 2013, 06:39:40 PM »
TK:

Just for fun...  You take it to the next level.  lol  You have your favourite 555 oscillator.  Then we go high tech and get a quand NAND gate chip, the 74XXX00.  The most useful gate chip of all!

De Morgan's law, very important:  "not (A and B)" is the same as "(not A) or (not B)"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NAND_gate

If you were hard core you could build a gate with transistors, the schematic is right there!

You actually want an AND gate.  You do this:  Output = [Comparator] AND [555_timer]

The output from the AND gate drives your IGBT/MOSFET/transistor.   So now when the output of the comparator is TRUE the coil driver is being switched on and off by the 555 timer signal.  This takes the "slicing" of the energizing of the coil to the next level.  You can slice and dice to your heart's content and control the average amount of current that goes into the coil before you collect the back spikes.  It's arguable that this allows you to reduce the current into the coil to reduce your resistive losses in the coil itself and collect a purer form of "radiant energy."   8)

MileHigh

Offline TinselKoala

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Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
« Reply #12 on: October 03, 2013, 08:38:49 PM »
Uhhh... OK..... but for that degree of complexity I'd probably go with the Arduino for its programmability. The idea of chopping the signal could be implemented by using one of the Arduino's PWM outputs, and gating that thru the external mosfet with another of the Arduino's digital outputs.

Meanwhile I implemented your comparator idea with a basic circuit using a TL082 opamp and a single supply. I can trigger the comparator without difficulty using a magnet swung past a coil.... but I have already identified two issues.

First... of course the voltage generated by the sense coil will depend on the speed of the magnet's passage. This means the comparator's setpoint will determine the speed of the rotor necessary to even start firing, and as the rotor speed increases the pulse width will actually increase, since the "window" of firing voltages will occur over a wider space during the magnet approach to the coil.

Second... the coil I used had to have a core. I couldn't get it to fire easily with no core. So the rotor magnets will be interacting with the core of the sense coil, which, as I understand your idea, would be mounted in a different place than the drive coil(s). This will cause mechanical problems, I think.

Now, using a ratiometric Hall sensor instead of the sense coil would allow the comparator to flip and fire the mosfet at a given magnetic field strength, which would eliminate both of the above problems I think. The firing point (translating to dwell or "on" time, I think)  could still be adjusted with the level control on the comparator, and the precise timing could be done with sensor positioning as you envisioned. (That's the way I timed my Marinov Slab and my Orbo replications, by adjusting the position of the Hall sensors.)

Offline MileHigh

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Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
« Reply #13 on: October 03, 2013, 10:01:35 PM »
TK:

It might be more fun to do it without a microcontroller for some people.  Can you change both the frequency and the duty cycle of an Arduino PWM output without resorting to any software tricks?

Quote
First... of course the voltage generated by the sense coil will depend on the speed of the magnet's passage. This means the comparator's setpoint will determine the speed of the rotor necessary to even start firing, and as the rotor speed increases the pulse width will actually increase, since the "window" of firing voltages will occur over a wider space during the magnet approach to the coil.

Note that a conventional Bedini motor setup also exhibits the same behaviour where the relative pulse ON time per rotation increases as the rotor speed increases.  With the comparator circuit addition you have the luxury of slicing the positive hump output from the coil at any potential you want, allowing you more control over the pulse width.

Quote
Second... the coil I used had to have a core. I couldn't get it to fire easily with no core. So the rotor magnets will be interacting with the core of the sense coil, which, as I understand your idea, would be mounted in a different place than the drive coil(s). This will cause mechanical problems, I think.

In theory the comparator gives you more sensitivity.  Did you tie the opposite end of the pick-up coil to +6 volts?  If the "ground" for the coil is +6.0 volts and you set your comparator threshold to +6.1 volts then it should be very sensitive.

I envision a pick-up coil that is mounted on a right-angled stand made with wood or something.  The number of turns and the geometry of the coil and core or no-core give you a lot of options.  The "problem" with a typical Bedini setup with a single drive-pickup coil is that the receding rotor magnet induces positive EMF into the pick-up coil which switches on the transistor.  However, when the transistor switches on that induces negative EMF in the pickup coil which switches the transistor off again.  So you have an undesirable (in my opinion) negative feedback oscillator effect taking place during the firing pulse.  "Negative" in the sense that I would rather have complete control - a full pulse or a chopped pulse of my own choosing and with guaranteed clean switching.  Depending on the particular Bedini motor sometimes you see the self-oscillation, sometimes you don't.  Sometimes you see it but then it disappears as the rotor speeds up and the "regular" pulse width decreases.

When you get your reference timing signal that is 90 degrees displaced from the main driving coil, the magnetic flux from the drive coil does not cut the pickup coil very much.  In fact, just with a scope and putting a sine wave into the main drive coil, you could tweak the angle of the pickup coil so that there is near-total self cancellation in the small amount of flux that passes through the 90 degree offset pickup coil.  You can imagine the toroidal magnetic field pattern generated by the drive coil and adjust the pick-up coil angle such that it has a low cross sectional profile with near full flux-self cancellation relative to the curving magnetic field pattern of the drive coil.

MileHigh
« Last Edit: October 04, 2013, 07:41:45 AM by MileHigh »

Offline TinselKoala

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Re: Self accelerating reed switch magnet spinner.
« Reply #14 on: October 04, 2013, 01:02:27 AM »
The setup I'm using has one end of the coil tied to ground and the other to the noninverting input of one amp in the TL082 through a 1n914 diode. The inverting input gets the signal from the wiper of the 10-turn, 10k trimpot, whose legs are at positive rail and ground. I'm using a single supply, just Vcc and 0. For the test load I'm using an LED and a dropping resistor. So with a blue LED, I'm using 1.8k and about 10-12 v Vcc for a brilliant LED when the comparator flips and sends the supply voltage to the output. The FET input of the op amp is so sensitive I can flip the comparator by touching a little "antenna" on the Pin 3 noninverting input, same place as the diode from the coil goes. The 10k trimmer provides precise adjustment.

But I still see the issues I raised as problems. The Bedini motor, as you point out, is self-quenching, so firing the coil at the timing point and then recirculating the shutoff spike provides a sharp "bang" to the rotor with a narrow duty cycle. This will not be the case with the speeding rotor magnets unless the comparator has extra circuitry. The comparator will stay "flipped" until the magnet starts receding again and the sign of the induced voltage changes (and is clipped by the diode.) So for increasing speed it will flip earlier and earlier. I think it will still turn off at the same place in the cycle though. So maybe this is analogous to the Bedini self-quenching. I'll just have to go on to a whole build to find out, I guess.

Two words: ratiometric Hall effect sensor. Wait, that's four words. But for simplicity and immunity they can't be beat. Allegro Microsystems rules.

ETA: I think the PWM of the Arduino normally has a fixed frequency and the user varies the duty cycle. But I think that the frequency can also be changed, by Real Programmers. Know any?

ETA2: there is another problem I just recognized. If your sense coil is 90 degrees around from the pulse coil, (4-magnet rotor) then you are triggering on a different magnet than you are driving. This means your magnet positions have to be precisely equal around the rotor, or you will have a weird repeating jitter pattern. A big advantage of the Bedini system and a Hall trigger system is that you can trigger on the same magnet you are going to drive with the pulse, so you don't have to worry about precise magnet positioning around the rotor. My Bedini motor uses a peanut-butter jar lid as the rotor and the magnet positions are ...er.... let's just say they are not to "MYLOW" levels of a hundredth of a millimeter precision.

 

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