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Author Topic: Lidmotor's Penny circuit help needed.  (Read 38704 times)

Offline Dark Alchemist

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Lidmotor's Penny circuit help needed.
« on: September 27, 2013, 08:35:45 AM »
www.youtube.com/watch?v=S1FTnxstQY4

That is the simulation I did and I can't figure out how to get it to do more than 28ma at 0.5v (any higher volts makes it go crazy).

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Lidmotor's Penny circuit help needed.
« on: September 27, 2013, 08:35:45 AM »

Offline TinselKoala

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Re: Lidmotor's Penny circuit help needed.
« Reply #1 on: September 27, 2013, 02:38:29 PM »
The circuit is a Joule Thief variant. I've re-drawn it using a more standard "rail-to-rail" layout so that the JT-ness is more obvious.
Please check my schematic re-draw for errors. I couldn't quite make out the value of the base resistor-- it looked like 400k but please correct me here if I got it wrong.

I am confused about your "28 mA". Please explain what you are talking about here. The JT produces pulses through the LED. The current during the pulse will be a matter of the "turn-on" voltage of the LED and its resistance, or fwd voltage drop, and the supplied peak voltage value from the JT oscillator. I see nothing in your sim or schematic that allows measurement of current here.

Offline Dark Alchemist

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Re: Lidmotor's Penny circuit help needed.
« Reply #2 on: September 27, 2013, 03:45:38 PM »
That looks about right except it is 800k resistor not 400k.  He managed to get this to work at .5v but max is 28ma with my mods but a higher voltage, or ma requirement, and forget it.

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Re: Lidmotor's Penny circuit help needed.
« Reply #2 on: September 27, 2013, 03:45:38 PM »
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Offline TinselKoala

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Re: Lidmotor's Penny circuit help needed.
« Reply #3 on: September 27, 2013, 05:44:10 PM »
OK, I'll correct the schematic to read 800K for the resistor. thanks.

But I still don't understand this "28 mA" and "higher mA requirement" that you are talking about. Do you mean input current from the 0.5 V source?

Please tell me exactly where this "28 mA" figure is coming from, and what you do to change it to, say, 29 mA that doesn't work.

JTs that are designed for very low input voltages will often "saturate" and stop oscillating if given too much input voltage. That's not so unusual.

Offline Dark Alchemist

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Re: Lidmotor's Penny circuit help needed.
« Reply #4 on: September 27, 2013, 08:41:21 PM »
OK, I'll correct the schematic to read 800K for the resistor. thanks.

But I still don't understand this "28 mA" and "higher mA requirement" that you are talking about. Do you mean input current from the 0.5 V source?

Please tell me exactly where this "28 mA" figure is coming from, and what you do to change it to, say, 29 mA that doesn't work.

JTs that are designed for very low input voltages will often "saturate" and stop oscillating if given too much input voltage. That's not so unusual.
The video showed what I meant by 28ma and .7v and 1v I don't consider too much voltage but I think this circuit does.

28 ma LED and that box (sorry I assume people have multisim) you saw me open that is where you can change the If of the LED.  I can change it all the way up to 28ma and it works but at 29ma it no longer will power the LED on.

So, I am wanting a way to increase the circuit's ability to power a LED beyond 28ma.
« Last Edit: September 27, 2013, 10:52:26 PM by Dark Alchemist »

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Re: Lidmotor's Penny circuit help needed.
« Reply #4 on: September 27, 2013, 08:41:21 PM »
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Offline TinselKoala

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Re: Lidmotor's Penny circuit help needed.
« Reply #5 on: September 27, 2013, 10:56:42 PM »
The video showed what I meant by 28ma and .7v and 1v I don't consider too much voltage but I think this circuit does.

Are you talking about where you changed the LED model component parameters from 20 mA to 28 mA?

What that number means is that, at a supplied DC voltage of 3.4 V (or whatever you are putting into the LED parameters), the LED _model_ is designed to draw 20 mA of DC current and produce the rated light output. I don't think this has anything to do with what your circuit is producing. By raising this current value you are essentially lowering the forward voltage of the LED model component, I think.
I have found that higher forward voltages usually work better for light output. In fact, by putting two LEDs in series, one can often get better performance. This is why most JTs use the higher voltage white or blue LEDs rather than red or green ones, I think. Why don't you try _lowering_ this current value in your LED model and see what happens? Or you could try raising the LED model's voltage to 6 volts, keeping the 20 mA current value.

Offline TinselKoala

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Re: Lidmotor's Penny circuit help needed.
« Reply #6 on: September 27, 2013, 11:04:58 PM »

The LED will have a published "forward voltage" that describes the voltage needed to put a certain small current through the LED. Above that stated forward voltage the relationship between the supply voltage and the current through the LED will look like the graph below. This is for a red LED with a rated "forward voltage" of about 1.7 V, but your blue LED will have the voltage values higher, but the shape of the curve will be the same. Your simulator model is setting the curve to hit the point at 3.4 V at 20 mA. So when you change the value to 28 or 29 mA, you are essentially moving the curve to the left: the voltage values needed to produce a given current in the LED decrease.

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Re: Lidmotor's Penny circuit help needed.
« Reply #6 on: September 27, 2013, 11:04:58 PM »
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Offline Dark Alchemist

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Re: Lidmotor's Penny circuit help needed.
« Reply #7 on: September 27, 2013, 11:09:03 PM »
Are you talking about where you changed the LED model component parameters from 20 mA to 28 mA?

What that number means is that, at a supplied DC voltage of 3.4 V (or whatever you are putting into the LED parameters), the LED _model_ is designed to draw 20 mA of DC current and produce the rated light output. I don't think this has anything to do with what your circuit is producing. By raising this current value you are essentially lowering the forward voltage of the LED model component, I think.
I have found that higher forward voltages usually work better for light output. In fact, by putting two LEDs in series, one can often get better performance. This is why most JTs use the higher voltage white or blue LEDs rather than red or green ones, I think. Why don't you try _lowering_ this current value in your LED model and see what happens? Or you could try raising the LED model's voltage to 6 volts, keeping the 20 mA current value.
I started it at 5ma it worked even better and there is no way to change the foward voltage in multisim.  I could try to make a brand new model but I tried that a few days ago to a dismal failure.

Offline Dark Alchemist

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Re: Lidmotor's Penny circuit help needed.
« Reply #8 on: September 27, 2013, 11:10:32 PM »
The LED will have a published "forward voltage" that describes the voltage needed to put a certain small current through the LED. Above that stated forward voltage the relationship between the supply voltage and the current through the LED will look like the graph below. This is for a red LED with a rated "forward voltage" of about 1.7 V, but your blue LED will have the voltage values higher, but the shape of the curve will be the same. Your simulator model is setting the curve to hit the point at 3.4 V at 20 mA. So when you change the value to 28 or 29 mA, you are essentially moving the curve to the left: the voltage values needed to produce a given current in the LED decrease.
As I said it works from 1ma all the way to 28ma but not beyond with the Blue LED (3.45v)

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Re: Lidmotor's Penny circuit help needed.
« Reply #8 on: September 27, 2013, 11:10:32 PM »
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Offline TinselKoala

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Re: Lidmotor's Penny circuit help needed.
« Reply #9 on: September 27, 2013, 11:17:52 PM »
I started it at 5ma it worked even better and there is no way to change the foward voltage in multisim.  I could try to make a brand new model but I tried that a few days ago to a dismal failure.
Well, there you go then, this confirms what I said. Lowering this current value effectively moves the graph to the right, in other words raises the forward voltage.
Don't make a new model, just put 2 or 3 LEDs in series in your sim circuit, this will effectively raise the forward voltage. Think of it like raising the height of a dam. The blocking oscillator needs to have a voltage swing, and when your LED turns on and passes current this limits or clips the voltage level of the swing. If you put two in series you are raising the height of the "dam" so that the voltage swing when the dam overflows is greater, and contains more power.

Offline Dark Alchemist

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Re: Lidmotor's Penny circuit help needed.
« Reply #10 on: September 27, 2013, 11:22:37 PM »
Well, there you go then, this confirms what I said. Lowering this current value effectively moves the graph to the right, in other words raises the forward voltage.
Don't make a new model, just put 2 or 3 LEDs in series in your sim circuit, this will effectively raise the forward voltage. Think of it like raising the height of a dam. The blocking oscillator needs to have a voltage swing, and when your LED turns on and passes current this limits or clips the voltage level of the swing. If you put two in series you are raising the height of the "dam" so that the voltage swing when the dam overflows is greater, and contains more power.
Am I only looking to see if it lights all of them up?  I was hoping to put a 300ma and/or a 700ma bright white LED in the real circuit but I need it to simulate that first.

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Re: Lidmotor's Penny circuit help needed.
« Reply #10 on: September 27, 2013, 11:22:37 PM »
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Offline Dark Alchemist

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Re: Lidmotor's Penny circuit help needed.
« Reply #11 on: September 28, 2013, 12:02:32 AM »

Offline Dark Alchemist

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Re: Lidmotor's Penny circuit help needed.
« Reply #12 on: September 28, 2013, 12:53:02 AM »
I am up to 4 LED and 670pF.

Offline TinselKoala

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Re: Lidmotor's Penny circuit help needed.
« Reply #13 on: September 28, 2013, 03:39:13 AM »
Good for you. Now you are making higher voltages with your circuit, and you should be seeing more total light output.

I can't quite make out the scope trace in the video. It looks to me like your timebase is set to 1 millisecond per division, is that right?

I'd like to see the scope display the actual signal, three or four peaks across the screen, instead of the "comb" you are showing. Try changing the timebase to 0.1 ms or even 1 us per division. We should also look at the voltage signal directly at the base of the transistor on the other channel of the scope. The max rated Vebo for your BC337 is only 5 volts.

I hope you realize what I was saying about the LED current/voltage relationship. To see what the _actual_ current is that you are putting into your LED stack, you can put a 1R resistor in series with the LEDs/capacitor at the cathode end, and look at the voltage drop across this resistor with one of the scope channels. By Ohm's Law, the current in this resistor is I == V/R, and since R is 1, the current in amps will be equal to the voltage drop in volts that you see on this resistor.

Offline TinselKoala

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Re: Lidmotor's Penny circuit help needed.
« Reply #14 on: September 28, 2013, 04:01:03 AM »
Consider what a "300 mA" LED means. This means that you take the LED, and a DC voltage source that is comfortably above the fwd voltage of the LED, and you use a current-limiting resistor to limit the current through the LED to 300 mA, and then you get your rated light intensity output from that LED. The average current the LED draws will depend on the average voltage you supply to it! It will _not_ always be 300 mA!

A typical 1 Watt LED (300 mA) has a fwd voltage of 3.4 volts or so. The problem is that your circuit cannot supply 300 mA at over 3.4 volts for any length of time, so the LED won't reach its full brightness during the brief flashes that the oscillator is sending it.
If I had one of these 300 mA LEDs I would not hesitate to try it in the circuit. It's not going to draw an average of 300 mA, though!

 

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