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Author Topic: Overunity (what is it?)  (Read 41314 times)

Offline TechStuf

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Re: Overunity (what is it?)
« Reply #45 on: September 27, 2013, 07:28:52 PM »
Tinman, think of the bubbles as a lot of "ball bearings" alleviating water's elastic death grip on the rotor.  Griggs's setup has been tested by various universities, and found to produce more heat than is taken in as electricity, and the technology has not reached it's full potential by a long shot.
 
 
TS

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Re: Overunity (what is it?)
« Reply #45 on: September 27, 2013, 07:28:52 PM »

Offline MileHigh

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Re: Overunity (what is it?)
« Reply #46 on: September 27, 2013, 11:34:04 PM »
Tinman:

I can only offer you a theory for your story.  I believe that I have good to very good mechanical aptitude so I will give it a try.

For starters, the drum setup is not a water pump so you can't compare the two.  Here is the theory:  The pump was obviously being stressed to the limit because the water started to cavitate.  When this happens, all of a sudden the water pump is not pumping water anymore.  If it's not pumping water then the mechanical load on the electric motor goes way down and thus you see the current consumption drop.  It may seem counter-intuitive, but that's the likely scenario.

Now, just for fun, let's take a step back and just look at what's happening at face value without knowing the specifics.  The old Black Box experiment.  If the current consumption of the motor drops, that means the load on the motor has dropped.  It's as simple as that, nothing to think about.  Now put that together with your example and you can say with quite a bit of confidence that when the cavitation was happening there was a reduced load on the motor.  It's the same idea with the drum.  If you are told that the drum is producing more hot water thermal power, then without even looking at it you can look at two possibilities:  1) the driving motor RPM increased, 2) the torque supplied by the driving motor increased.  If you are told that the cavitation in the drum increases the thermal power output then with your eyes closed you can say that it takes more torque to drive the drum when cavitation is happening.  In this case the cavitation increases the friction that wants to stop the drum from turning.

Going back to your story, if the pump has stopped pumping because of the cavitation, the the the water flow at the output side of the motor slows down.  It may slow down a lot in a fraction of a second.

Then the cavitation disappears and all of a sudden the motor is ready to pump again.  However, there is a problem.  The problem is that you have to overcome the inertia of all of the water in the pipe again because it has slowed down a lot and the pump wants to resume pumping at the normal flow rate.  In fact, that's the mechanical inductance of the long pipe filled with water that's causing this problem.  Mechanical inertia is a form of inductance.  So the pump now has a double load, overcoming the inertia of the water in the pipe, and the regular load that's always there.  The motor/pump can't drive the double-load and it chokes and slows down a lot.  Because the motor has slowed down a lot, it's not generating enough CEMF, the current shoots up, and the breaker trips.

Quote
in my youth,and racing formula 3 tunnel boat's,once you trimed up to high,the prop would cavitate,and RPM would go sky high.

That is a somewhat similar example.  When the water cavitates the blades of the prop are not pushing on the water anymore to drive the boat forward.  There is no more load.  The blades are driving "empty space" or "room temperature steam" instead, hence the propeller RPM shoots way up because there is no longer a load to drive.

TS:

Quote
Griggs's setup has been tested by various universities, and found to produce more heat than is taken in as electricity, and the technology has not reached it's full potential by a long shot.

Please show us some data.  Otherwise it's just talk.

MileHigh

Offline TechStuf

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Re: Overunity (what is it?)
« Reply #47 on: September 28, 2013, 01:39:50 AM »
Quote
TS:

You should listen to Tinman's words of wisdom.  I already told you in a previous posting that my alias just popped into my head, it's not a drug reference at all.  Don't even think about making follow-up comments along that line.

Gulp;  I'm sorry, it won't happen again.  And my sincere apologies to your dealer.  I do not wish to offend the cartel!   :P
 
It was an honest question, wrapped in a joke, inside an enigma.  I truly wondered if you selected MileHigh for reasons of lifestyle rather than location.   Feel free to write an unauthorized biography about my username if you wish, I can take it.  My skin isn't quite as thin as some.  I might even get a chuckle and encourage further hyperbole!  Instead of offering up the over reactionary, "don't even dare" line of defense of what is in fact, just a thin, arbitrary veneer.  As you said, an "alias". 
 
Quote
Please show us some data.  Otherwise it's just talk.

Us?  Do you have a mouse in your pocket, or is Harry Dunn over for a visit?
 
If you cannot see the evidence already shared for what it is, then your optometrist has my sympathies.
 
Better days, seeing through the haze, and navigating your maze.
 
 
 
TS

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Re: Overunity (what is it?)
« Reply #47 on: September 28, 2013, 01:39:50 AM »
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Offline MileHigh

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Re: Overunity (what is it?)
« Reply #48 on: September 28, 2013, 02:13:26 AM »
TS:

Quote
If you cannot see the evidence for what it is, then I am sorry for you.

Really?  I view the above comment as pure spin and disconnected from reality.  You simply don't have any evidence that I am aware of.  The original fire station clip is more than 10 years old now and the guys have wised up.  They don't make claims of over unity.

Just by saying "there is evidence" does not not cut it for me and I am sure that there are many that share my opinion.  I won't let my brain get comfortably numb and just believe what you are saying just because you are saying it.  You see that often in the realm of free energy.  Just look at Sterling Allen's web site.  Very recently there was a comical motor-generator clip from some Romanian guy where you can see where he tried to hide the power cord for the second motor underneath a 2x4 that formed a stand for the contraption.  The vast majority of the comments say that the clip is pure junk yet there are still posters that just blindly want to believe.

I won't ask any more and if you don't provide evidence the readers of the thread can draw their own conclusions.

Webby1:

Like I said, you can't compare apples and oranges.  One is a friction heater and the other is a pump.  They are completely different things.  The cavitation in the friction heater does not affect the integrity of the thin water "skin" that is wrapped around the inner drum.  What it does do is create a "disturbance" to the quasi-laminar flow of water that would exist if there was no cavitation.  That disturbance to the quasi-laminar flow causes more resistance to the rotation of the inner drum.

For a pump, some kind of cylinder is sucking on a long cylindrical plug of water and pulling it through a long pipe and there is resistance to the water flow.  When the length of a pipe is over 100 times the inner diameter of the pipe it acts just like a resistor.  When the water cavitates, then the pump is not pulling the water through the long pipe any more hence the resistance experienced by the motor goes down.

Going back to the drum heater, if it was driven to the point that the thin water "skin" that surrounds the drum itself cavitated, then the resistance to rotation would drop sharply and the drum would speed up like crazy.  Does that make sense to you?

MileHigh

Offline MileHigh

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Re: Overunity (what is it?)
« Reply #49 on: September 28, 2013, 02:28:35 AM »
Quote
Gulp;  I'm sorry, it won't happen again.  And my sincere apologies to your dealer.  I do not wish to offend the cartel!   (http://www.overunity.com/Smileys/default/tongue.gif)
 
It was an honest question, wrapped in a joke, inside an enigma.  I truly wondered if you selected MileHigh for reasons of lifestyle rather than location.   Feel free to write an unauthorized biography about my username if you wish, I can take it.  My skin isn't quite as thin as some.  I might even get a chuckle and encourage further hyperbole!  Instead of offering up the over reactionary, "don't even dare" line of defense of what is in fact, just a thin, arbitrary veneer.  As you said, an "alias".

Would you like to be called a crack hoe?

I'll tell you what.  Think instead about having ssex with a 1974 Sylvie Kristel in bathroom of an airplane during a long transatlantic flight.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Overunity (what is it?)
« Reply #49 on: September 28, 2013, 02:28:35 AM »
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Offline TechStuf

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Re: Overunity (what is it?)
« Reply #50 on: September 28, 2013, 02:35:53 AM »
Quote

 
I won't ask any more and if you don't provide evidence the readers of the thread can draw their own conclusions.


Time will tell.  And as for the readers of the thread,  I'm fairly certain that a goodly number of them are capable of using the "search" function on this site to find further information, as the topic has been re-visited "once or twice".
 
You're too jaded, you must be communist Chinese.
 
See, I can make leaps in logic while ignoring evidence too.
 
I think it obvious that my "vice" is FE.  As for your use of "Hoe", that "cracked" me up.
 
Quote
I'll tell you what.  Think instead about having ssex with a 1974 Sylvie Kristel in bathroom of an airplane during a long transatlantic flight.

 
Wow.  With delusional fantasy skills like that....Umm....who needs drugs?
 
 
 
 
 
TS
 
 

Offline MileHigh

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Re: Overunity (what is it?)
« Reply #51 on: September 28, 2013, 02:49:20 AM »
I'll make an appeal to the readers of this thread:

If anybody can provide some links that back up TechStuf's claims about cavitation I would be happy to have a look at them.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Overunity (what is it?)
« Reply #51 on: September 28, 2013, 02:49:20 AM »
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Offline TechStuf

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Re: Overunity (what is it?)
« Reply #52 on: September 28, 2013, 02:59:32 AM »
 
Well, it seems obvious that you have fingers....
 
 
Perhaps use them for typing a few bits in the search field.
 
 
As a wise man once said,  "These aren't fart bubbles in the tub we're talking about here".  (I paraphrase)
 
 
 
TS

Offline MileHigh

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Re: Overunity (what is it?)
« Reply #53 on: September 28, 2013, 04:06:29 AM »
Webby1:

Just for "fun" I tried to look up the tensile strength of water.  It was one of those cases where the search was frustratingly difficult.  Finally I found what looked like a credible link that stated it can vary between one and 25 megapascals.  It depends on things like impurities in the water.  So let's say for argument's sake it's two megapascals.  Converting that to psi gives you the tensile strength of water being 290 psi.

Air pressure is 14.7 psi.   Let's imagine you have a metal cylinder with a closed end and an open end.  It's filled with water and the cross-sectional area of the inner cylinder is five square inches.  So if you have a piston in the cylinder and a machine pulling on the piston and slowly ratcheting up the pulling force, the machine has to pull with about 1450 pounds of force before the "break" happens and the water cavitates.  After the cavitation, then you are only pulling against the outside air pressure, which would be about 73.5 pounds.

So as you can see in this thought experiment, imagine the pulling pressure from the machine slowly increases to the point where it hits 1450 pounds of pulling force.  During this whole time the piston is barely moving.  Then, all of a sudden, the situation changes and the machine is pulling with 1450 pounds of force, but the resistance to the pulling has suddenly dropped to 73.5 pounds.  So the piston will suddenly fly off in the direction of the pulling force.

Now relate that back to the story of the pump speeding up and the power consumption dropping when the cavitation starts.  Obviously they are not directly comparable situations, but at least you get a sense of the dynamics at play.

MileHigh

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Re: Overunity (what is it?)
« Reply #53 on: September 28, 2013, 04:06:29 AM »
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Offline Farmhand

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Re: Overunity (what is it?)
« Reply #54 on: March 09, 2014, 04:01:10 AM »
@MH
Im not sure how it would work in the drum setup with the holes drilled in it,but with any other water pump,once it cavitates,the load come's off the motor-meaning it draws less current.This we seen all the time in the mine's,with both the water pump's and hydrolic power packs.We found this out when trying to figure out why the surge breakers kept tripping.So myself and the sparky sat there and would watch the amp meters on the motor's.The pump would cavitate ,and the current draw would drop.But when the pump grabed again while running flat out,it would draw a shit load of current in one hit,and throw the breakers.
So from my experiance,cavitation reduces the load on the prime mover. The same applies for boat.When in my youth,and racing formula 3 tunnel boat's,once you trimed up to high,the prop would cavitate,and RPM would go sky high. That was also the end of the prop aswell-high carbon S/S melted in a flash. Now that takes some heat.

But like i said at the start,i dont know if this would be the same in the drum setup?.

I haven't got far reading this thread yet, but it seems to have gone off topic where I am at, anyway about the cavitation.

How about this theory, the water gains most of it's heat before cavitation begins. The in-out measurements should begin when the device is first turned on and continue for some period after cavitation has been going.

I know what cavitation does when it happens with a prop on a boat, suddenly the engine screams with less load and the boat slows, usually an operator with any sense will reduce the applied power to stop it as quick as possible. In a boat the heat created before cavitation occurs is left behind, with the drum heater I'm guessing the heat remains local.

Cheers

P.S. most boat motors that have cavitation issues usually have an anti cavitation plate or surface which would seem to increase the water pressure around the propeller at a cost of more drag.



     
« Last Edit: March 09, 2014, 09:26:24 AM by Farmhand »

Offline Farmhand

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Re: Overunity (what is it?)
« Reply #55 on: March 09, 2014, 04:29:04 AM »
Here's my view on O.U. it is short for over unity. THere seems to be an assertion by some that O.U.breaks the laws of thermodynamics.

1) The definition could be seen by some as being more energy out than is consumed in total.

2) Or it could mean more energy out than we put in.

Only the first case would violate any laws of whatever. The second case would not, a solar panel is included in the second case as is hydro and wind input, we don't blow the wind.

Now if we think of it as more out than we put in it is likely the case that some input is from out side the so called "closed system", meaning it is not really a "closed system".

Now also if we consider that in mostly all systems except the entire Universe, the dissipated energy leaves the system, so any system where the dissipated energy leaves the system is an "open system" and therefore not really subject to breaking the 2nd law or whatever, said same system could be also collecting energy from the environment in a similar way to the way the energy is released or another way,either by accident or a device built to do it. Case 2 is nothing special, Case 1 is the Law breaker.

I see only two possible definitions to choose from, i think we should vote on it in a poll, at least so we can see the viewpoints of the majority of posters.

1) The definition of O.U. is "More energy out than is consumed in total".

2) The definition of O.U. is "More energy out than we put in".

Even if we could say which meaning we are speaking of in any situation would help.

Cheers

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Re: Overunity (what is it?)
« Reply #55 on: March 09, 2014, 04:29:04 AM »
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Offline profitis

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Re: Overunity (what is it?)
« Reply #56 on: March 09, 2014, 07:56:44 AM »
@farmhand the definition of overunity is more work out than we put in without the need for a fuel-consuming temperature gradient,for the net gain.your 1st definition smashes the 1st law thermodynamics,unlikely to ever happen in a normal laboratory.your 2nd definition covers the 2nd law of thermodynamics(if by 'we' you mean humans) but doesnt exclude natural resources.

Offline Farmhand

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Re: Overunity (what is it?)
« Reply #57 on: March 09, 2014, 09:11:15 AM »
@farmhand the definition of overunity is more work out than we put in without the need for a fuel-consuming temperature gradient,for the net gain.your 1st definition smashes the 1st law thermodynamics,unlikely to ever happen in a normal laboratory.your 2nd definition covers the 2nd law of thermodynamics(if by 'we' you mean humans) but doesnt exclude natural resources.

Yes ok then if we consider that definition it means solar panels, wind and hydro turbines are all Over Unity. Do you agree ? As are some other regular things which produce an output without us providing some or any of the input.

No matter what the mechanism, in that definition if more energy is output then we input we have Over Unity. Also any excess energy from an unknown source is just that an unknown source, and until we determine that the unknown source is not man made in origin we cannot claim Over Unity. eg. Radio waves or ground disturbances ect.

If we consider man made radio waves as a source of energy not provided by us personally then do we also consider power taken from the grid without paying for it as energy not provided by us and legitimate Over Unity ? I say no, any energy that comes from a man made source should be excluded as they may not be available for ever.

Cheers

I still say we should have a Poll so we can see what the opinion of the majority of posters is. Many people claim they break the Laws of thermodynamics, Lenz's Law and even Ohms Law when they obviously do not. eg. Cold electricity would break Ohms law, if there was such a thing.

..


Offline vasik041

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Re: Overunity (what is it?)
« Reply #58 on: March 09, 2014, 09:43:38 AM »
Perhaps somebody find this book interesting

Free Energy Principles
https://www.dropbox.com/s/msza1mkalq06uw0/fe_principles.pdf


Offline Farmhand

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Re: Overunity (what is it?)
« Reply #59 on: March 09, 2014, 10:49:15 AM »
Perhaps somebody find this book interesting

Free Energy Principles
https://www.dropbox.com/s/msza1mkalq06uw0/fe_principles.pdf

Free energy is different to the definition of Over Unity. It also depends what you mean by "Free" exactly. I'll give an example.

Take a small community near a river, if we want to build a small hydro station for the community, even if we get all the materials for "free", let's say 'donated', then we still need to build and maintain and run the facility. And if everyone just does their bit with no money involved, it could be considered by some as totally "free" energy.

However if you consider free as in "cost" then all "Costs" as in to the environment, for materials gathering, maintenance and day to day running, possible continuing effect to others down stream or up ect. need be considered.

By the way some people just say "Tesla never claimed Over Unity from the many non Over Unity systems people claim he did for those systems" based mainly on power figures, such as with the "Magnifying Transmitter" people claim it was a free energy device but he clearly states it operates at less than 100% efficiency under Oath and has generators to feed it power and energy. Nothing sad about that at all, what is sad is people continually claiming almost everything Tesla did was Over Unity. He did have energy collectors and idea's for obtaining energy from the Niagara Falls for many years before it happened.

There should be no mistake the energy being tapped by a hydro plant is free, but it costs human effort to collect and distribute it.

Cheers

 

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