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Author Topic: Overunity (what is it?)  (Read 41153 times)

Offline MileHigh

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Re: Overunity (what is it?)
« Reply #30 on: September 26, 2013, 04:54:29 AM »
Just to finish off this discussion let's discuss that famous cavitation bubble that produces sonoluminesence.  The amazing pistol shrimp and all that jazz.  There is this belief out there that it's some kind of a source of energy.  Nothing could be further than the truth so let's look at it.

Let's start off with magnets.   You have two magnets stuck together on your bench top.  You pull them apart and place them six inches away from each other.  You may not realize it but you have just put energy into the magnet system.  There is literally a certain tangible amount of energy now in that system that wasn't there before.

You think that's crazy?  Here is a crazy thought experiment:  You spread peanuts still in their shells on your bench.  Then you carefully place neo magnets in among the peanuts so that they stay in place and don't move.  Then you bang the bench top with your fist a few times and all of a sudden *smash*, all of the neo magnets come crashing together.  Some of the peanut shells get busted and liberate the peanuts.

So where did the energy come from to bust the peanut shells open?  The energy came from the positions of the neo magnets on your bench top.  When the neo magnets are on your desktop and spread out that represents a high energy state.  When they all come crashing together, then once the crash is over that represents a low energy state.

Where does the energy come from to create the high energy state, the energy that eventually is used to smash the peanut shells?  It comes from your arm when you pull the neos apart again and place them on the table such that they remain separated from each other.

There is no "energy from the neo magnets" that smashes the peanut shells.  You put energy into the system when you pulled the neo magnets apart (force x displacement = energy).  The energy to smash the peanut shells comes from you, it doesn't come from the magnets at all.

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Re: Overunity (what is it?)
« Reply #30 on: September 26, 2013, 04:54:29 AM »

Offline MileHigh

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Re: Overunity (what is it?)
« Reply #31 on: September 26, 2013, 05:18:57 AM »
So let's look at the cavitation bubble in the same manner.

The cavitation bubble is formed by a strong suction, or negative pressure, on the water.  It takes work (force x displacement) to pull the water apart and actually make the cavitation bubble.

That's just like pulling two magnets apart.  So when you are looking at a cavitation bubble for the brief time it is in existence, the bubble itself represents a higher energy state.  Just the fact that the bubble exists means that there is now more energy in the system.

You can't forget that an outside energy source did the work to create the cavitation bubble.

Then when the cavitation bubble collapses it's just like when the magnets all smash together and break some of the peanut shells.

So, you know that looking at a cavitation bubble means that there is energy stored in the system.

The cavitation bubble collapses ->  the stored energy in the bubble now has just been transformed into kinetic energy of the moving water. ->  This is like all of the moving neo magnets at the instant before they crash together.

The moving water "crashes into itself" when the bubble has completely collapsed ->  This is like imagining all of the moving neo magnets hit each other at the same time.

What happens to the kinetic energy in the moving water when it crashes into itself?  It has to go somewhere.

Certainly some of the energy in the moving water becomes a shockwave that travels through the water.  So some of the kinetic energy becomes sound energy that continues flowing through the water.

Some of the energy simply becomes heat.  But since this heat is all contained within a microscopic volume at the very center of the former bubble, the temperature has to get very high simply to respect the conservation of energy.  The temperature gets so high that some of the heat is radiated away as visible light.  Some of the heat heats the water.  It's all just the conservation of energy in action.

Kinetic energy of the moving water gets transformed into sound energy (shockwave) and heat energy (various wavelengths of EM energy including visible light, and the heating of the water itself)

The entire process of sonoluminescence when a tiny cavitation bubble collapses in on itself is just an ordinary process where energy transforms from one form to another form to another form.   The energy is supplied by an outside source.

So there is no pot of gold associated with sonoluminesence or the pistol shrimp.

Offline TechStuf

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Re: Overunity (what is it?)
« Reply #32 on: September 26, 2013, 08:16:01 AM »
 
Quote
So there is no pot of gold associated with sonoluminesence or the pistol
shrimp.

I'm going to go out on a limb here and take a guess that you didn't choose the user name, "MileHigh" because you live in Denver.
 
TS

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Re: Overunity (what is it?)
« Reply #32 on: September 26, 2013, 08:16:01 AM »
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Offline MileHigh

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Re: Overunity (what is it?)
« Reply #33 on: September 26, 2013, 08:34:40 AM »
TS:

Nice little implicit play on words.... but you are not responding to the points made.

The name just popped into my head.  The first thing I thought of after it popped into my head was Denver.  The second thing I thought about was the airplane scene at the end of the movie Emmanuelle.  Go figure.

MileHigh

Online ramset

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Re: Overunity (what is it?)
« Reply #34 on: September 26, 2013, 02:43:48 PM »
Piezo Nuclear reactions ,that's a brand new word for the planet ,maybe they didn't teach this in your school book MH ?{ why would they?]
 
and its caused By sound ?
 
 
 
The Soundwaves can cause a cascading chain reaction with tempertures easily reaching millions of degrees!
 
There is definately something to see here
the future of power on Planet earth [once all the "Mongers" lay down]
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ba-FeswwGNQ
 
Thx
Chet

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Re: Overunity (what is it?)
« Reply #34 on: September 26, 2013, 02:43:48 PM »
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Offline tiquila77

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Re: Overunity (what is it?)
« Reply #35 on: September 26, 2013, 04:38:29 PM »
Hello guys, I have perfected a novel magnetic gate that I call "Ouroboros"(the snake biting its tail). The Ouroboros has the following characteristics: (1) It has a "sticky point" at its exit; (2) Its magnetic forces are uniform from its entrance to its exit; (3) When closed loop, its sticky point vanishes. Now from its mathematical model, it has a power-to-weight ratio of 2horse-power per kilogram. A sample of 9.37kg has a power of 21horse-power, a torque of 11newton-meter, and a speed of 13920 rev/min...

Offline tiquila77

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Re: Overunity (what is it?)
« Reply #36 on: September 26, 2013, 04:53:17 PM »
From 1995  till this year, I worked on a particular design, the prototype of which I built 3 months ago; although I succeeded in producing asymetrical magnetic field around the rotor, the design didnt work. Why? The torque was far lesser than the moment of inertia of the rotor. Early this year, I came across the U.S patent 5455474; and when I applied the method I used to produce asymetrical magnetic field in the other design, it worked well. The advantage of the new design is that I could easily adjust the torque arm, something I couldnt do in the first design. I want to approach NEST to see if they could help me...

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Re: Overunity (what is it?)
« Reply #36 on: September 26, 2013, 04:53:17 PM »
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Offline MileHigh

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Re: Overunity (what is it?)
« Reply #37 on: September 26, 2013, 05:03:10 PM »
Webby1:

I really don't know what you mean by "pushes the conditions over the top."  You seem to be implying that the rotating drum plus cavitation system will "take on a life of its own" after a certain input power threshold and start to produce over unity in the form of more thermal heat power out than mechanical power in.  That's not going to happen.  It's a huge mistake to just assume that "cavitation" is some mechanism to get over unity because it's not.

In fact there is a sobering point that I forgot to mention.  If the motor driving the drum is 95% efficient well there is a 5% loss right there from the get-go.   So a "dumb" water heater with a controller and a big resistive heating element is more efficient on paper and it's essentially zero maintenance.

Chet:

Quote
The Soundwaves can cause a cascading chain reaction with tempertures easily reaching millions of degrees!

I am assuming that you are referring to the pistol shrimp and the sonoluminesence.  I will repeat that it's nothing more than the conservation of energy in action.  You take a certain amount of heat energy and you put it into a volume of water.  As the volume size decreases then the temperature must increase to hold the same amount of energy.  If the volume is really minuscule then the temperature can indeed reach millions of degrees.  It really doesn't mean anything in the searching for over unity scheme of things.

As far as the clip goes, I only glanced at it.  Perhaps it's somewhat akin to reading about a new "breakthrough" in solar cell efficiency every two weeks.  That's 26 "breakthroughs" a year, how many actually get into production?  If you put radioactive materials in a fluid with cavitation going on, perhaps the microscopic water hammer effects will induce nuclear reactions, I don't know.  Will there ever be a commercial "fission reactor with a cavitation catalyst assist" in our future?  I don't know the answer to that one.  Cavitation in this case is just part of the process, the energy is still coming from the nuclear materials.

I hope that you try to digest my little treatise about the cavitation bubbles and the sonoluminesence.  There is nothing magical about the pistol shrimp.  Certainly it's remarkable how it developed a mechanism to ccock it's muscles/ligaments/claw to create the effect it creates, but it's COE and all fully understandable.  Look at kangaroos, when they are running full speed their long ligaments act like elastic bands that store and release energy.  That's also remarkable.  Then there is that flagellar motor that has people going a bit crazy and talking about the big guy that may be in the sky, that's also remarkable.

MileHigh

Offline tiquila77

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Re: Overunity (what is it?)
« Reply #38 on: September 26, 2013, 05:07:23 PM »
The closed loop version of the ouroboros has a power-to-weight ratio of 2Hp/kg. It behaves like a piece matter falling in a bottomless pit, since the rotor accelerates endlessly in a circle. We all know that a circle has no begining or ending. Like the SMOT, the oroboros has its sticky point at its exit; unlike the SMOT, its magnetic field is uniform from its entrance to its exit; and unlike the SMOT, when closed loop, its sticky point doesnt come into play, for it siezes to exist!

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Re: Overunity (what is it?)
« Reply #38 on: September 26, 2013, 05:07:23 PM »
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Online ramset

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Re: Overunity (what is it?)
« Reply #39 on: September 26, 2013, 05:36:37 PM »
MH
You really need to pay attention here,This is not Flatulent Bubbles in the tub.......
 
Completely heretofore unknown Process which was at first spotted in your "shrimp" Vid [around 1989]
and is evolving towards a complete new understanding which apparently knows few limits!
 
Take a look, you'll be seeing much more of this!
 
Synthetic Radioactivity [Piezo Nuclear reaction]
 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ba-FeswwGNQ
Thx
Chet

Offline TechStuf

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Re: Overunity (what is it?)
« Reply #40 on: September 27, 2013, 08:36:53 AM »
Quote
MH
You really need to pay attention here,This is not Flatulent Bubbles in the
tub.......

LOL

Don't bother, Ramset, this isn't bubbles in bong water either....but MileHigh still has a while before he can come back down to Terra Firma, curb the munchies, and initiate his due diligence on the matter.
 

 
TS
« Last Edit: September 27, 2013, 11:29:08 AM by TechStuf »

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Re: Overunity (what is it?)
« Reply #40 on: September 27, 2013, 08:36:53 AM »
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Offline tinman

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Re: Overunity (what is it?)
« Reply #41 on: September 27, 2013, 11:58:34 AM »
Guy's
We all have our own opinions,and we are all entitled to post them here-thats why were here.But we should all respect others opinions,and not just deem them wrong because we dissagree with them.I think we should also be able to post those opinions ,without the fear of being insulted.Unless we can prove otherwise,then there opinion is just as good as anyone elses.

What we would like to see,is if there is any way that extra energy can come from cavitation in the rotary heater. Once this is proven,then maybe we can start to correct those that shared what they think is right.But until then,we should take all conciderations in account,and be respectful to one- another in the process.

Offline MileHigh

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Re: Overunity (what is it?)
« Reply #42 on: September 27, 2013, 02:44:30 PM »
TS:

You should listen to Tinman's words of wisdom.  I already told you in a previous posting that my alias just popped into my head, it's not a drug reference at all.  Don't even think about making follow-up comments along that line.

For the clip that Ramset linked to, it's 18 minutes long, perhaps I will get around to it later.  Iron is a very stable atom so I am not sure what they are going on about, and I am not smelling anything real there but I will have to watch the clip.

For anybody that reads this thread, there is a fair amount of "shouting" from you that "cavitation gives you gains!" and you are stating that it's over unity.  I have pointed out to you a few times that Hydro Dynamics makes no claims at all of over unity on their web site.  I have also analyzed a cavitation bubble, and lots of other stuff.   There are about half a dozen points in this thread where I ask you to back your claims up or explain yourself further.  Lo and behold, you have ignored them all.  That tells me, and it tells the readership, that you don't have any technical substance to back up your claims and all of your postings are wishful thinking about cavitation - unless you want to go back and respond to my questions and add substance to your argument.

Going back to the drum water heater.  Imagine it's spinning at 600 RPM without cavitation and producing a flow of hot water representing say 500 watts.  Then imagine it's spinning at 600 RPM with cavitation and producing a flow of hot water representing say 600 watts.  You are shouting and saying, "See, cavitation is amazing and gives you gains!"

What you are missing is this:  When the cavitation bubbles happen inside the drum, the drum produces more heat.  That extra heat doesn't come from "nowhere."   You have two cases where the drum is spinning at 600 RPM.  What's the difference?  The difference is that the drum that is producing the cavitation requires more torque at the same RPM to account for the increased hot water thermal power output.  The drum with the cavitation offers more resistance to the drive motor and therefore requires more torque at a given RPM to output more thermal power.

You are trying to argue that it's "free!!!!!" but it's not free.  You haven't presented any evidence to back up your claims nor have you responded to the half-dozen places in the thread where I asked you to add substance to your argument.

I am more than willing to see you put up some evidence or argue your points.  But for now, cavitation is just "there" and it doesn't do anything in terms of free energy.

MileHigh

Online ramset

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Re: Overunity (what is it?)
« Reply #43 on: September 27, 2013, 03:48:44 PM »
Funny You should say that about Iron MH !!
 
Iron 's place on the periodic Table is DIRECTLY attributed to its ability to do things previously thought impossible.
 
Thus The whole Synthetic Nuclear reaction ....{in the 18 minute vid]
 
Studying The Pistol shrimp has paved the way to Unimaginable opportunities that have absolutely Nothing to do with Pseudo and everything to do with real science.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ba-FeswwGNQ
 
School is in session .........
thx
Chet
PS
To be Prejudice with out investigation is both arrogant and Ignorant [I should know]
PPs

Start with Roger Stringham in the late 90's, http://sonofusionjets.com/
 
The Iron discovery being discussed in the 18 minute vid is from the last decade 2005 -08 .
« Last Edit: September 27, 2013, 06:16:04 PM by ramset »

Offline tinman

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Re: Overunity (what is it?)
« Reply #44 on: September 27, 2013, 07:06:18 PM »
@MH
Im not sure how it would work in the drum setup with the holes drilled in it,but with any other water pump,once it cavitates,the load come's off the motor-meaning it draws less current.This we seen all the time in the mine's,with both the water pump's and hydrolic power packs.We found this out when trying to figure out why the surge breakers kept tripping.So myself and the sparky sat there and would watch the amp meters on the motor's.The pump would cavitate ,and the current draw would drop.But when the pump grabed again while running flat out,it would draw a shit load of current in one hit,and throw the breakers.
So from my experiance,cavitation reduces the load on the prime mover. The same applies for boat.When in my youth,and racing formula 3 tunnel boat's,once you trimed up to high,the prop would cavitate,and RPM would go sky high. That was also the end of the prop aswell-high carbon S/S melted in a flash. Now that takes some heat.

But like i said at the start,i dont know if this would be the same in the drum setup?.

 

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