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Mechanical free energy devices => mechanic => Topic started by: carlprad on September 17, 2013, 08:24:26 PM

Title: Can a PMM rotor generate enough usable electricity to escape the "sticky point"?
Post by: carlprad on September 17, 2013, 08:24:26 PM
Hello everyone

Is it possible to generate enough electricity/power from the spin of a PMM rotor, to escape the dreaded "sticky spot"?

For example, a TOROID generator does not introduce friction and can be an amazing amplifier. (If I am not mistaken.)

So, can a single turn of a PMM rotor generate enough energy to then power a device that pushes the "stator" past the "sticky spot"?

Or, maybe if you get the rotor spinning to the necessary RPM's, by hand, will it then be self-sustaining with the proper form of energy generator concept?

The TOROID is simply one idea. I'm really hoping someone will have a better idea for harvesting the most out of rotor spin and the most efficient way to spend that energy on getting past the "sticky spot".

I am currently working with the V-GATE rotor paradigm.

Thank you everyone in advance.

Carlos


Title: Re: Can a PMM rotor generate enough usable electricity to escape the "sticky point"?
Post by: LibreEnergia on September 17, 2013, 11:50:06 PM
Hello everyone

Is it possible to generate enough electricity/power from the spin of a PMM rotor, to escape the dreaded "sticky spot"?

For example, a TOROID generator does not introduce friction and can be an amazing amplifier. (If I am not mistaken.)

So, can a single turn of a PMM rotor generate enough energy to then power a device that pushes the "stator" past the "sticky spot"?

Or, maybe if you get the rotor spinning to the necessary RPM's, by hand, will it then be self-sustaining with the proper form of energy generator concept?

The TOROID is simply one idea. I'm really hoping someone will have a better idea for harvesting the most out of rotor spin and the most efficient way to spend that energy on getting past the "sticky spot".

I am currently working with the V-GATE rotor paradigm.

Thank you everyone in advance.

Carlos


It is not possible. Field theory is on absolutely correct on this point. Magnetic fields are conservative making it impossible to build a working PMM where the prime motive power is derived from the magnets alone.

Don't waste your time.
Title: Re: Can a PMM rotor generate enough usable electricity to escape the "sticky point"?
Post by: TechStuf on September 18, 2013, 12:53:17 AM
LE is right about one thing,  "don't waste your time".  As for a magnetic field being conservative, it is until it isn't. "they" also said that a vehicle cannot move down wind, faster than the wind, using only the power of the wind.....yet today they now do so at 3 times the wind speed (and more). 

"they" also said steam power was conservative.  Yet Griggs's hydrosonic pump puts out appreciably more energy as heat than it takes in as electricity.

No.  Magnetic fields are not only conservative.  They are relatively conservative.  Big difference.  The V-gate doesn't work because it's researchers are not adequately apprised of the methodology necessary to properly exploit the scales and modalities of efficiency required to see positive gains.  The V-gate makes very poor use of magnetic flux energy. 

Instead of thinking, "how can I make magnets move themselves eternally?"  Think, "How can I move magnets the least to make their fields change the most?"

Then comes the "aha".....

And then, one is encouraged to dwell on the perpetual aspects.




TS
Title: Re: Can a PMM rotor generate enough usable electricity to escape the "sticky point"?
Post by: LibreEnergia on September 18, 2013, 03:00:21 AM
LE is right about one thing,  "don't waste your time".  As for a magnetic field being conservative, it is until it isn't. "they" also said that a vehicle cannot move down wind, faster than the wind, using only the power of the wind.....yet today they now do so at 3 times the wind speed (and more). 

"they" also said steam power was conservative.  Yet Griggs's hydrosonic pump puts out appreciably more energy as heat than it takes in as electricity.

No.  Magnetic fields are not only conservative.  They are relatively conservative.  Big difference.  The V-gate doesn't work because it's researchers are not adequately apprised of the methodology necessary to properly exploit the scales and modalities of efficiency required to see positive gains.  The V-gate makes very poor use of magnetic flux energy. 

Instead of thinking, "how can I make magnets move themselves eternally?"  Think, "How can I move magnets the least to make their fields change the most?"

Then comes the "aha".....

And then, one is encouraged to dwell on the perpetual aspects.




TS

All very well, but you've never built one that works or even have any idea how to go about it do you?
The math cannot be disputed. If we accept that the field theory models magnetism accurately then there is no possibility of a working PMM.

You need to show how the math is wrong, and then I'd accept there is some possibility of devising a working device.
Title: Re: Can a PMM rotor generate enough usable electricity to escape the "sticky point"?
Post by: TechStuf on September 18, 2013, 03:55:48 AM
Quote
The math cannot be disputed.
lol.  Only with those who've already judged it indisputable.
 
Quote
but you've never built one that works or even have any idea how to go about it
do you?
And here I thought we were going to be "homies"....
 
TS
 
 
Title: Re: Can a PMM rotor generate enough usable electricity to escape the "sticky point"?
Post by: Liberty on September 18, 2013, 05:07:43 AM
LE is right about one thing,  "don't waste your time".  As for a magnetic field being conservative, it is until it isn't. "they" also said that a vehicle cannot move down wind, faster than the wind, using only the power of the wind.....yet today they now do so at 3 times the wind speed (and more). 

"they" also said steam power was conservative.  Yet Griggs's hydrosonic pump puts out appreciably more energy as heat than it takes in as electricity.

No.  Magnetic fields are not only conservative.  They are relatively conservative.  Big difference.  The V-gate doesn't work because it's researchers are not adequately apprised of the methodology necessary to properly exploit the scales and modalities of efficiency required to see positive gains.  The V-gate makes very poor use of magnetic flux energy. 

Instead of thinking, "how can I make magnets move themselves eternally?"  Think, "How can I move magnets the least to make their fields change the most?"

Then comes the "aha".....

And then, one is encouraged to dwell on the perpetual aspects.




TS

"Instead of thinking, "how can I make magnets move themselves eternally?"  Think, "How can I move magnets the least to make their fields change the most?""

How about some more specifics on this?  Do you have some example pictures/drawings so we can see what you are talking about?
Title: Re: Can a PMM rotor generate enough usable electricity to escape the "sticky point"?
Post by: TechStuf on September 18, 2013, 05:30:44 AM
First, consider the magnetic field as an open/closed system.  A permanent magnet by itself, is a closed system as currently taught.  (Ironically, according to the misdirections taught at the "universities",  their own field models preclude conservation.)  This is done by leading students to believe that the common dipole is comprised of flux quanta emanating SOLELY from one pole and entering the other.

Are they really that unaware?  OR, are they simply counting on their students remaining unaware that there is more?  A simple test proves their field models are wrong.  One has only to bring two PMs into close proximity with like poles repelling...finally forced to make physical contact against their will, to disprove their enforced notion.

How does this disprove the model?  If one cannot see how for themselves, then anything I might be motivated to share further is moot.

If, however, one is able to get close enough to peek through even this single, one way example (among many) of their maliciously overpriced fun house mirrors....

 
TS
 
 
Title: Re: Can a PMM rotor generate enough usable electricity to escape the "sticky point"?
Post by: LibreEnergia on September 18, 2013, 06:56:59 AM
lol.  Only with those who've already judged it indisputable.

TS

As I've said before.. show me where it is wrong then.

You haven't got the slightest clue do you.
Title: Re: Can a PMM rotor generate enough usable electricity to escape the "sticky point"?
Post by: TechStuf on September 18, 2013, 10:33:16 AM
Quote
You haven't got the slightest clue do you.

lol.....On that we can certainly agree.
 

TS
Title: Re: Can a PMM rotor generate enough usable electricity to escape the "sticky point"?
Post by: elecar on September 18, 2013, 02:32:09 PM
LibreEnergia, respectfully I believe you did not read the OPs post correctly. It appears that the OP is asking whether it is possible to derive enough power from a single turn of a PMM to be able to use that power to escape the sticky spot.

Perhaps a generator driven by the PMM could be geared many times to 1 where it could store energy in say a cap and that energy released via a coil at the gate. There are some examples of PMMs giving very good torque on a single rotation.

I would say it may be possible regardless of magnets having conservative fields.
Title: Re: Can a PMM rotor generate enough usable electricity to escape the "sticky point"?
Post by: Liberty on September 18, 2013, 03:17:53 PM
LibreEnergia, respectfully I believe you did not read the OPs post correctly. It appears that the OP is asking whether it is possible to derive enough power from a single turn of a PMM to be able to use that power to escape the sticky spot.

Perhaps a generator driven by the PMM could be geared many times to 1 where it could store energy in say a cap and that energy released via a coil at the gate. There are some examples of PMMs giving very good torque on a single rotation.

I would say it may be possible regardless of magnets having conservative fields.

It depends on how much energy is required to overcome the locking or blocking point (sticky spot).  If you have to equal the magnet's strength, it will not be a useful device to have more output than input.  It's all about efficiency.  Here is a permanent magnet motor design that is capable of achieving this level of efficiency.  www.dynamaticmotors.com (http://www.dynamaticmotors.com)
The electric car industry needs a developed version of this technology, but so far they only try to use batteries.
Title: Re: Can a PMM rotor generate enough usable electricity to escape the "sticky point"?
Post by: elecar on September 18, 2013, 06:47:48 PM
Hi Liberty, my point was that the OPs questions were not being answered. Instead there are a load of replies that are of no use. To me the OPs questions were pretty clear.

I believe Carl is asking is it possible to generate enough power from a single turn of a PMM to use to escape/pass the sticky spot.
Personally I do not have the answers, specifically because electronics/electrics are beyond me.
But that does not mean it is not possible, and replies simply stating that PMM can not work because they are conservative fields has nothing to do with the questions being asked.

Can a PMM rotate 1 time before it hits the sticky point ? Yes
Can energy be used to pass the sticky point ? Yes
Can energy be stored during that rotation ? Yes

So the OP wants to know, how can energy be captured during that rotation, to be used to get past the sticky point.
Title: Re: Can a PMM rotor generate enough usable electricity to escape the "sticky point"?
Post by: Liberty on September 18, 2013, 07:43:29 PM
Hi Liberty, my point was that the OPs questions were not being answered. Instead there are a load of replies that are of no use. To me the OPs questions were pretty clear.

I believe Carl is asking is it possible to generate enough power from a single turn of a PMM to use to escape/pass the sticky spot.
Personally I do not have the answers, specifically because electronics/electrics are beyond me.
But that does not mean it is not possible, and replies simply stating that PMM can not work because they are conservative fields has nothing to do with the questions being asked.

Can a PMM rotate 1 time before it hits the sticky point ? Yes
Can energy be used to pass the sticky point ? Yes
Can energy be stored during that rotation ? Yes

So the OP wants to know, how can energy be captured during that rotation, to be used to get past the sticky point.

Hi elecar,

1.  Whether a PMM can rotate 1 time before it hits the sticky point is not the most important issue.  What is important is how much energy does it take to pass the sticky point, (how efficient is the transaction)?

2.  The energy might be able to be used depending on your design.  How much torque output does your motor have and can it constantly produce this torque or only at certain points in the rotation?  Then (if you have a running motor), calculate the output of the motor using a prony brake and a weight scale at 1 foot distance (Foot ounces).  Then calculate the measurement into watts to find the average output from the motor.  Or if the motor doesn't run,  use a string attached to the rotor and test to see how much weight the motor can lift, and how far it pulls it, in how much time.

3.  To store the energy or delay the energy usage till the proper time to use it.  You can use mechanical methods to feed back the energy into the motor input.  But there are issues and loss you will encounter with this method including friction.

You can capture the energy by generating power with a generator and storing electrical power in a capacitor, or using mechanical means such as a spring.  There is loss using both methods.  The real question is how little energy can I use and how efficiently can the sticky point be overcome vs. how much output can the motor produce.  What is the best method of passing the sticky point?  Is the method to pass the sticky point efficient enough to make the motor useful and practical? 

Happy experimenting!
Title: Re: Can a PMM rotor generate enough usable electricity to escape the "sticky point"?
Post by: TechStuf on September 18, 2013, 09:11:26 PM
Quote
The real question is how little energy can I use and how efficiently can the
sticky point be overcome vs. how much output can the motor produce.  What
is the best method of passing the sticky point?  Is the method to pass the
sticky point efficient enough to make the motor useful and practical? 

Compare the simplest and most inefficient electric motor you can find.....one with ceramic magnets even....and it will outperform these "gate/track" setups.  Why?  For the simple reason that magnets are MUCH more efficient in close proximity direct push/pull operation than in some slow, drawn out, slide to no where.

The v-gate and similar "experiments" are rather like watching a geriatric try and negotiate a wheel chair ramp.  Eventually one sympathizes with the situation and offers a boost because the person didn't have the energy to clear the bump at the top of the ramp.  And who put that bump there in the first place? 

Monkey see, Monkey do....doesn't just apply at the zoo.

One should make solid efforts to remain methodical in one's approach to negotiating the concepts and practices of any science to which they wish to offer contribution. Starting in the middle somewhere, after watching a video, without first seeking solid foundation, nearly always ends in frustration. 

These exotic, time consuming setups which may look impressive....of which there are many.....one may only truly critique them by the yardstick of "EXPERIENCE".
In your experience, is it worth replicating?  Not sure?  Get more experience.
So many are still copying long ago disproved concepts, in hopes of re-inventing the wheel by....apparently attempting to wear a circular groove in space/time itself?
 
Before following another's path......first get hands on.  Serious hands on time with magnets and their interactions.  Feel nature's rules before trusting the 'sanitized for your protection' versions of others.  Sit in a room by yourself, quiet, no distraction.  Pen and paper handy.  You and two magnets.  Begin observing their interactions in your hand, keeping distance and orientation always in mind.  You may be shocked at the "rules" you observe that no one else has revealed to you.

It can and will save the serious researcher much wasted time following the circular tracks laid down by many.
 
H. Johnson
S. Kundel
Q. Gang
 
Three examples of those on the "Right" track.  Perhaps if they'd have shared the same "train", So many wouldn't still be stuck at the station.
 
TS
 
Title: Re: Can a PMM rotor generate enough usable electricity to escape the "sticky point"?
Post by: lumen on September 18, 2013, 09:54:17 PM
I think, just build it without the "sticky spot"!
 
It may be easier than you think!
Without giving the entire concept at this time, ask "at what point do two magnets contain the most kinetic energy.
1: Far from each other?
2: Close to each other?
I have a computer model that shows an PM oscillator with no "sticky spot".
So before I embarrass myself with claims, I will first build it and see for myself why it fails to operate the way the model indicates it should.
 
Title: Re: Can a PMM rotor generate enough usable electricity to escape the "sticky point"?
Post by: LibreEnergia on September 19, 2013, 04:16:44 AM
LibreEnergia, respectfully I believe you did not read the OPs post correctly. It appears that the OP is asking whether it is possible to derive enough power from a single turn of a PMM to be able to use that power to escape the sticky spot.

Perhaps a generator driven by the PMM could be geared many times to 1 where it could store energy in say a cap and that energy released via a coil at the gate. There are some examples of PMMs giving very good torque on a single rotation.

I would say it may be possible regardless of magnets having conservative fields.

I did read his post correctly. Simple conservation of energy principles are enough to dismiss the idea of gathering energy during the rotation to provide enough energy to escape the 'sticky spot'.

The integral the forces with respect to distances travelled over a closed path in a magnetic field is zero so,  If you try to store energy during some part of the rotation then you convert kinetic energy to stored potential energy. As you approach the 'sticky spot' you then convert that potential back to kinetic energy.

Due to conversion losses the amount of energy you store will ALWAYS be less than the amount of kinetic energy the device had in the first place. So if you convert the stored energy back to kinetic energy (incurring further losses) and then try to surmount the 'sticky spot' the end result is worse than if you didn't try storing any of the energy in the first place.

It just doesn't work.. get used to the idea and try something else.
Title: Re: Can a PMM rotor generate enough usable electricity to escape the "sticky point"?
Post by: lumen on September 19, 2013, 04:32:44 PM

The integral the forces with respect to distances travelled over a closed path in a magnetic field is zero so,  If you try to store energy during some part of the rotation then you convert kinetic energy to stored potential energy. As you approach the 'sticky spot' you then convert that potential back to kinetic energy.

Due to conversion losses the amount of energy you store will ALWAYS be less than the amount of kinetic energy the device had in the first place. So if you convert the stored energy back to kinetic energy (incurring further losses) and then try to surmount the 'sticky spot' the end result is worse than if you didn't try storing any of the energy in the first place.

It just doesn't work.. get used to the idea and try something else.

I agree!
So, what needs to change to make something operational.
It's all about the field lines and their direction at all points of movement through them.
It seems there is a way to start at some point and make a movement with and energy gain, only to end up at a the same condition as you started.
It should be impossible, but there may be a way.