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Author Topic: Magnetic fields within a toroid inductor.  (Read 77099 times)

Offline MileHigh

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Re: Magnetic fields within a toroid inductor.
« Reply #105 on: September 19, 2013, 06:23:55 AM »
Dave45:

You keep changing the subject mid stream.  Hence another "spooky" posting.

Here is the subject at hand:

Where is the electric field in this example Dave?  Please state your proof that I am wrong.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Magnetic fields within a toroid inductor.
« Reply #105 on: September 19, 2013, 06:23:55 AM »

Dave45

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Re: Magnetic fields within a toroid inductor.
« Reply #106 on: September 19, 2013, 06:27:24 AM »
Here's one powered with 12v ac


Dave45

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Re: Magnetic fields within a toroid inductor.
« Reply #107 on: September 19, 2013, 06:30:52 AM »
This coil the first one I showed in this thread is wound and powered with dc so the current runs against each winding and results in no detectable magnetic field using a compass but still has an electric field.



Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Magnetic fields within a toroid inductor.
« Reply #107 on: September 19, 2013, 06:30:52 AM »
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Offline MileHigh

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Re: Magnetic fields within a toroid inductor.
« Reply #108 on: September 19, 2013, 06:36:53 AM »
Well if you can change the subject then I can change the subject.  You will get a "charge" out of this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oe5FgFOkxkI

Are we having a productive "debate" now?

Offline MileHigh

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Re: Magnetic fields within a toroid inductor.
« Reply #109 on: September 19, 2013, 06:42:30 AM »
Dave45:

Focus..... Focus....

Quoting you:

Quote
Not true.  I could prove you wrong.

For reference, here is the example from the earlier posting:  We were talking about an example were there were interacting fields from two wires with DC current going through them.  In that case there will be places in the 3D field where there is no magnetic field and by definition there is no electric field.

Where is the electric field in this example Dave?  Please state your proof that I am wrong.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Magnetic fields within a toroid inductor.
« Reply #109 on: September 19, 2013, 06:42:30 AM »
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Dave45

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Re: Magnetic fields within a toroid inductor.
« Reply #110 on: September 19, 2013, 06:46:07 AM »
your post had nothing to do with magnetic and electric fields, mine well I know pseudoscience, like I said wasting my time.
later
dave

Offline MileHigh

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Re: Magnetic fields within a toroid inductor.
« Reply #111 on: September 19, 2013, 06:48:40 AM »
A legitimate second subject:

Quote
This coil the first one I showed in this thread is wound and powered with dc so the current runs against each winding and results in no detectable magnetic field using a compass but still has an electric field.

I don't know what you mean when you say, "the current runs against each winding."  Can you elaborate?

How much current was running through the coil when you tried to measure the magnetic field with a compass?  How did you actually physically do the compass measurement?  How can you be sure the compass was sensitive enough?

How do you know there was an electric field?  How did you measure it?

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Magnetic fields within a toroid inductor.
« Reply #111 on: September 19, 2013, 06:48:40 AM »
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Dave45

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Re: Magnetic fields within a toroid inductor.
« Reply #112 on: September 19, 2013, 06:49:04 AM »
Dave45:

Focus..... Focus....

Quoting you:

For reference, here is the example from the earlier posting:  We were talking about an example were there were interacting fields from two wires with DC current going through them.  In that case there will be places in the 3D field where there is no magnetic field and by definition there is no electric field.

Where is the electric field in this example Dave?  Please state your proof that I am wrong.
Its like me saying there's a nose on your face and your saying there isnt, and the whole time your looking right at it.
past my bedtime
later

Offline MileHigh

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Re: Magnetic fields within a toroid inductor.
« Reply #113 on: September 19, 2013, 06:54:43 AM »
Dave45:

Quote
your post had nothing to do with magnetic and electric fields, mine well I know pseudoscience, like I said wasting my time.
later
dave

I would call that a "spooky fail" on your part.  You challenge me on my example, and when I reply to engage with you, you post more pictures of coils frozen in glass containers.  What the heck?

And then you get rude again.  The truth is I tried to legitimately hear you out with respect to your comments about my example and discuss it with you and you ended up wasting my time.  You did not discuss my example at all, the one you challenged me about.  How ironic.

MileHigh

P.S.: 
Quote
Its like me saying there's a nose on your face and your saying there isnt, and the whole time your looking right at it.

I would call that an attempt at misdirection.  Thanks for the non-debate.  I was truly willing to debate your contention that there is an electric field in my example with the two wires with DC current flowing through them.  As much as I tried to debate that specific example with you, you simply thew things at me that had nothing at all to do with the example.  Hence I gave you the example of an ice hotel.  The art of "non-linear debate."

It makes me think of those silly little things that people put in their high school year book write-ups for their personal profiles.  This one guy put this in for his write-up and for some reason I could never forget it:

Roses are red
Violets are blue
I like Corn Flakes
Can you swim?

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Magnetic fields within a toroid inductor.
« Reply #113 on: September 19, 2013, 06:54:43 AM »
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Offline Magluvin

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Re: Magnetic fields within a toroid inductor.
« Reply #114 on: September 19, 2013, 07:43:05 AM »
Should we just dismiss the ice formations in Daves Ice projects?  If we had 2 containers with the same coils filled with water, and we power one coil and not power the other, and if in the end, the powered coil in ice has spiral formations and the unpowered coil doe not, is it still insignificant? Are we not curious as to what is causing these distortions in the ice due to an energized coil? If not, then why not? ;)

Mags

Offline xee2

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Re: Magnetic fields within a toroid inductor.
« Reply #115 on: September 19, 2013, 09:10:24 AM »

Here is a thought experiment:  You have a 10-meter length of straight wire.  So that's an inductor.  You put 10 volts across the ends of the wire and let's say 10 amps of current flow.  It takes a short while to overcome the inductance and build up the magnetic field that surrounds the wire.  So we know that there is a certain amount of energy stored in the magnetic field around the wire.

Now, lets take the same same wire and make a 180-degree bend at the 5-meter point so that the wire is folded over and the two ends of the wire are right next to each other.  You put 10 volts across the terminals and 10 amps of current flow.  However, there is a huge difference here.  The parallel halves of the wire create magnetic fields that mostly cancel each other out.  Therefore the inductance for this wire configuration is much much smaller than for the straight wire.  Therefore the current rises to 10 amps much much faster, and there is much much less energy stored in the magnetic field around the wire.  So there is no "energy that was always there" in this configuration.  There is simply less energy from the get-go.  Everything balances out like it is supposed to.

MileHigh,

Agreed. I guess we were not talking about the same thing. Thanks for your interesting discussions.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Magnetic fields within a toroid inductor.
« Reply #115 on: September 19, 2013, 09:10:24 AM »
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Offline MileHigh

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Re: Magnetic fields within a toroid inductor.
« Reply #116 on: September 20, 2013, 09:00:10 AM »
Perhaps just a few closing thoughts on on some of the topics.

The analysis of the toroid using Ampere's Law was based on an "air" toroid.  Of course that's the hardest one to set up to not emanate any magnetic field and you need "perfect" symmetry in your coil windings.  Once you add a high-permeability core to the inside of the toroid then things get a lot easier.  The core is going to channel the magnetic flux and offer a much "easier" path than the free space outside the core.  So a decently wound toroidal coil around a toroidal core will produce a near near zero field outside the toroid.  Even just doing a partial wind (totally broken symmetry) and leaving a lot of the core bare will still barely emanate a magnetic field to the outside free space.  The point is to understand the harder problem first, and appreciate the fact that even without a core the toroid will not emanate much of a magnetic field.  And for the sake of completeness note that the analysis that was done for the air core toroidal coil was only done in the horizontal plane of the toroid that cuts it in two like a bagel.  The analysis doesn't say anything about what the magnetic field looks like outside of the center plane of the air toroid.

Also, note that I mentioned the "secondary" magnetic field.  So you draw a different Amperian loop.  This one is at a right angle to the plane of the toroid and it cuts right through the center of the doughnut and encircles the tube of the toroid.  That Amperian loop sees current so you know that there is a secondary magnetic field through the doughnut hole of the toroid.

I may have been able to decipher Dave45's thinking.  Dave45 please comment to correct me if I am wrong.  I will take a chance and state this.  He may have seen the thought experiment with the wires with DC current and just instantly related it to his experiments with coils in ice.  So perhaps he just superimposed what he thinks his coil and ice experiments were telling him and "forced" the same conclusions on my thought experiment?  That's kind of like a bull in a China shop.  The two things are not related at all.  Here is another hypothetical.  Dave45 stated that there is no magnetic field around one of his setups.  Let's take the example of the photograph of the vertical glass cylinder with the vertical coil embedded in ice.  If you run DC current through the coil and move a horizontal hand-held compass around the vertical glass cylinder there is a good chance that you could get thrown off and not detect the magnetic field generated by the coil!  You would have to lay the glass ice cylinder out horizontally to measure the magnetic field.  You also have to be sure you are running enough current through the coil so that the magnetic field generated by the coil generates a magnetic bubble in the Earth's magnetic field.  Dave45 offers up next to zero information so I am just speculating.

MileHigh

Offline tinman

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Re: Magnetic fields within a toroid inductor.
« Reply #117 on: September 20, 2013, 03:15:08 PM »
Well,looking at the video you posted MH,it's good to see the eskimo's have gone up in the world with there igloo's.

Anyway,im quite supprised Dave45 could get the water to freeze,having a heater in the middle of it. Must have been very low P/in,so as the coil didnt get hot-or even warm.

Now how exactly dose the coriolis effect work in a bathtub(when you pull the plug)-when the object is fixed and traveling with the rotating mass?.

Dave45

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Re: Magnetic fields within a toroid inductor.
« Reply #118 on: September 21, 2013, 02:13:03 AM »
Just to clarify I checked the coil for a magnetic field before I put it in water, horizontal, no magnetic field.
The coil was powered with 12v dc using an automotive bulb pulling 2 amps.
Iv froze alot of coils using different types of water, bottled drinking water works best for clarity.
Something I found strange if the bulb is placed after the coil, on the pos side it will kill the power supply, its like the coil draws on the supply, the bulb acts as a limiter (resistor) keeping the coil from pulling on the supply, very strange. I killed three or four power supply's before I found this out.
If the coil is placed horizontal in the ice it distorts the fields, the earth has an effect on a coil, all coils in your experiments should be in a vertical position so the fields are not distorted, if you remember the TPU would not work if positioned wrong this is because of the distorted fields, that and the TPU draws energy in one end and passes it out the other.
Alot can be learned by placing coils in water and freezing them, it takes about 24 hours for one to freeze solid but it you check the cell about every hour you may see some interesting results.

The coil winding I showed, not this specific one, but one like it.
The core was rusted and the rust spread and settled in the bottom of the container, the coil spun the water and cleared the rust in the bottom this was at about five or six inches from the coil, do you realize how much force it took to spin the cold water, this was a strong spinning field.

This post was posted in haste Im kindof in a hurry
later
dave

Offline Magluvin

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Re: Magnetic fields within a toroid inductor.
« Reply #119 on: September 21, 2013, 03:45:00 AM »
Hey Dave

So you use the light bulb in series with the coil to limit the current?

Here is what I think some are thinking, and I question it a bit also. Its natural to question.  ;)

The coil is producing a certain amount of heat. This will cause currents in the water, up and down, all while the freeze tries to solidify.  Its a logical thought considering.
At my work, when the painter has cleaned out his gun into a container, and the paint was a pearl, it ends up a liquid of lacquer thinner tainted with paint color and pearl. If I take that container and set it in the palm of my hand, the top surface of the liquid seams to come alive. Swirling fractal waves coming up from the center spreading outward across the top surface. Put your hand on the side of the container and the swirls come up from that side. So its not hard for me to believe that heat may have something to do with it.  Possibly ;)

Are these vector fields able to go through glass? If so, here is what I suggest.  Fill your container to the top and set up the coil on a horizontal axis facing the jar. The distance should be close to the jar optimally, but heat radiates. Maybe freeze the coil in a block first, then place the block right next to the jar. If you still get swirls in the jar, then I would have much more confidence in saying that it is not heat causing it. Or make a framework that the coil is mounted in the middle and shelves you can put one jar below the coil, one above and one left and right. If there are mostly only swirls in the top jar, then heat is rising and causing it I would say.

Just thoughts on how you could get people to understand that fields are really doing it instead of the first possible thought by others of the effect being caused by heat. ;D

Mags





 

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