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Author Topic: Magnetic fields within a toroid inductor.  (Read 76529 times)

Offline MileHigh

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Re: Magnetic fields within a toroid inductor.
« Reply #75 on: September 15, 2013, 10:15:13 PM »
Webby1:

Quote
When I energize the copper coil, with a pulse, the coat hanger coil, aka the core, does produce a current.  If I leave the ends open I can measure it.

It's not surprising that you get some kind of reaction from the coat hangar core when you pulse the outer copper toroid.  Any core that is conductive will produce eddy currents when it is pulsed, as an example.  Plus the ideal toroid configuration would have perfect symmetry, and any deviations from the symmetry will show up in your measurements as small detectable signals.  So your setup will do that.

Quote
So,, what I was getting at is, that this way the core is still a core maybe and then you could actually measure what the internal current is instead of using formulas.

In theory you would only see eddy currents in a conductive core when there is AC excitation of the real copper toroid coil.  If you have a lot of experience on the bench you may have observed that a scope probe on high sensitivity will pick up a main signal in a circuit almost anywhere else in the circuit for all sorts of reasons; unexpected signal propagation in the circuit itself, coupling through stray capacitance and stray inductance, etc, etc.

MileHigh

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Magnetic fields within a toroid inductor.
« Reply #75 on: September 15, 2013, 10:15:13 PM »

Offline MileHigh

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Re: Magnetic fields within a toroid inductor.
« Reply #76 on: September 15, 2013, 10:59:29 PM »
Dave45:

Quote
If you look at the pic of the solenoid froze in ice you can see the A field.

I have never in my life heard about immersing something in water and then freezing it into ice to visualize fields.  Can you explain how that works?

Quote
Once you understand this concept you can see exactly how Ed leedskalnin's PMH works, there is a magnetic field flowing in the toroid and an electric field flowing in the air looping through the toroid, as long as the magnetic field is not interrupted the fields will continue for years, but when the magnetic field is broken the electric field collapses into the coils and will light a bulb. There are quite a few vids on youtube showing this effect.
simple simple simple

I understand exactly how the PMH works, it's like a magnetic equivalent to a charged capacitor.  There is no electric field in the air that loops through the toroidal form of a typical PMH.  The only field at play is the magnetic field that is contained within the PMH.  The PMH is basically a temporary magnet that loops back onto itself.  Because it feeds back onto itself the temporary magnet can remain permanently magnetized as long as it is not disturbed.

From my personal perspective it's almost like there is a mini cult around the PMH and that's a real shame.

Quote
but when the magnetic field is broken the electric field collapses into the coils and will light a bulb. There are quite a few vids on youtube showing this effect.  simple simple simple

It is simple but not like you state.  Only when the magnetic field collapses do you get a brief electric field appearing and then disappearing that can light the light bulb.  The electric field only exists for a brief amount of time.  You are saying that it's always there and finally collapses when you break the magnetic field and that's not true.

As far as the A field goes, you are of course referring to an "Aether field."  Sorry but there is no such thing.  It's part of a belief system that has a life of its own and you are buying into it.  Freezing water does not organize into ice around an A field, there are other explanations for how and why water freezes into ice in recognizable patterns that could be explained to you by people knowledgeable in that field.  I did read how water is slightly diamagnetic and saw a cool picture of a frog floating in thin air though!

You did a drive-by posting linking to a pseudoscience document about toroids and alleged Aether fields.  It really had nothing to do with Tinman's investigation but I thought I would still comment.   I know people believe that it is raining down Aether particles and that's pushing on us to keep our feet on the ground.  You can do the modelling like that and it will function just like gravity.  But where do all the raining Aether particles go when they reach the center of the Earth?  It's just pseudoscience as far as I am concerned.  How come there are no experiments that I am aware of that document and show detection of "collisions" between Aether particles and our bodies to keep our feet on the ground?  They can detect alpha particle collisions and neutrino collisions and neutron collisions, how come no detection of Aether particle collisions?

Did you see how we derived a formula for the magnetic field inside a toroid?  It was just an application of Maxwell's equations.  For this alleged A field, I would not be surprised if all that you have are sketches dreamed up by enthusiasts and a rough anecdotal "rule book" like you expressed in some of your postings.  You can't mathematically model the alleged A field, nor can you measure it with anything.  Like I said, the ice deal is a non starter as far as I am concerned.

Quote
I just showed you the secret of the ages and you dont even realize it

You can buy a tshirt that shows Maxwell's equations in differential and integral form - that's the secret of the ages revealed.

There has never been a legitimate demonstration of a bunch of stacked coils showing a reduction in the acceleration due to gravity.  It's just a fantasy, all part of the belief system that you ascribe to.  Even in the graphic the author says that it "may" work like he or she needs some kind of escape clause if they are ever seriously challenged.

MileHigh

Offline MileHigh

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Re: Magnetic fields within a toroid inductor.
« Reply #77 on: September 16, 2013, 01:16:38 AM »
Tinman:

Poynt made a very interesting comment:

Quote
With no input current, the axis of the majority of the speaker magnet domains is in the vertical plane. When you apply some current to the coil, some or all of the magnet's domains will rotate towards the horizontal plane, and the degree to which they rotate will depend on the current, strength of the magnet, and frequency of the drive signal.

If you were to replace the core with a non-magnetized material, or use no core at all, you should find that most of the B-field is contained within the toroid, and you will have little to no signal in your pickup coil.

That's something that I didn't think of and it sounds reasonable.  Supposing that instead of a magnet inside the coil there was an electromagnet.  This is a thought experiment.  With an electromagnet generating the magnetic field in the vertical plane, then when you put AC into the toroidal coil the vertical field generated by the electromagnet would not be affected at all.

I am going to disagree with Poynt when he says that when you replace the core with non-magnetized material that you will have little or no signal in your pick-up coil.  I already explained why several times so I won't repeat it.  Let's call my process the "secondary magnetic field" process.

Therefore in your current setup with the magnetized core, the pick coil may be responding to the disturbed magnetic field from the magnet, as well as the secondary magnetic field process.

You mentioned that at low frequencies that you saw no phase shift in the pick-up coil waveform.  That suggests that the coil was responding as a coil.

Then you stated that at a higher frequency you got maximum amplitude with a 90 degree phase shift observed in the pick-up coil.  There is a possible explanation for that.  You hit this self-resonant frequency for the coil and the inductive reactance and the parasitic capacitive reactance cancelled each other out.  That means the coil just looked like an ordinary wire with no inductance or capacitance.  So you would get AC current through the coil at the self-resonant frequency and at the same time there would be no phase shift between the AC voltage excitation for the coil and the AC current flowing through the coil  (normally it's 90 degrees).  Under those conditions you would expect to see a 90 degree phase shift between your AC excitation waveform and the AC voltage waveform for the pick-up coil.

When you push the frequency even higher the capacitive reactance takes over and then you would expect to see a 180 degree phase shift between the AC excitation waveform and the AC voltage waveform for the pick-up coil.  Under these conditions your toroidal inductor actually looks like a capacitor.

The standard caveat is that this would have to be checked and verified on the bench.

MileHigh

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Magnetic fields within a toroid inductor.
« Reply #77 on: September 16, 2013, 01:16:38 AM »
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Offline MileHigh

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Re: Magnetic fields within a toroid inductor.
« Reply #78 on: September 16, 2013, 01:26:50 AM »
Finally, I will state a very easy way to visualize the secondary magnetic field with another example that was just recently mentioned by Poynt.

He talked about a mile-long straight inductor coil that was one inch in diameter.  He said that for all practical intents and purposes the field is fully contained inside the tube of the coil.  There is a "return magnetic field" outside the tube of the coil but it would be so weak as to be undetectable.

Imagine you have one ampere of current flowing through the mile-long straight coil.   Now imagine you back away from the coil.  50 feet away, then 100 feet away, then 500 feet away.

From 500 feet away the one-inch-diameter coil looks just like an ordinary straight wire with one ampere of current flowing through it.  You know that a straight wire with one amp of current flowing through it will have a cylindrical magnetic field wrapped around it.  So it's the same thing for the one-mile-long one-inch-diameter coil.  It will also have a cylindrical magnetic field wrapped around it.  That's the secondary field that I am talking about.  So the same process happens with a toroidal coil also.

MileHigh

Dave45

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Re: Magnetic fields within a toroid inductor.
« Reply #79 on: September 16, 2013, 02:42:13 AM »
You just keep following the same old dogma as for me Im headed for free energy with a clear understanding of how it works, There's alot of things I havent shown but it wouldnt do any good anyway, Youv never experimented with the ice so how do you know what it can or cant do, you will see.

Dave45:

I have never in my life heard about immersing something in water and then freezing it into ice to visualize fields.  Can you explain how that works?

I understand exactly how the PMH works, it's like a magnetic equivalent to a charged capacitor.  There is no electric field in the air that loops through the toroidal form of a typical PMH.  The only field at play is the magnetic field that is contained within the PMH.  The PMH is basically a temporary magnet that loops back onto itself.  Because it feeds back onto itself the temporary magnet can remain permanently magnetized as long as it is not disturbed.

From my personal perspective it's almost like there is a mini cult around the PMH and that's a real shame.

It is simple but not like you state.  Only when the magnetic field collapses do you get a brief electric field appearing and then disappearing that can light the light bulb.  The electric field only exists for a brief amount of time.  You are saying that it's always there and finally collapses when you break the magnetic field and that's not true.

As far as the A field goes, you are of course referring to an "Aether field."  Sorry but there is no such thing.  It's part of a belief system that has a life of its own and you are buying into it.  Freezing water does not organize into ice around an A field, there are other explanations for how and why water freezes into ice in recognizable patterns that could be explained to you by people knowledgeable in that field.  I did read how water is slightly diamagnetic and saw a cool picture of a frog floating in thin air though!

You did a drive-by posting linking to a pseudoscience document about toroids and alleged Aether fields.  It really had nothing to do with Tinman's investigation but I thought I would still comment.   I know people believe that it is raining down Aether particles and that's pushing on us to keep our feet on the ground.  You can do the modelling like that and it will function just like gravity.  But where do all the raining Aether particles go when they reach the center of the Earth?  It's just pseudoscience as far as I am concerned.  How come there are no experiments that I am aware of that document and show detection of "collisions" between Aether particles and our bodies to keep our feet on the ground?  They can detect alpha particle collisions and neutrino collisions and neutron collisions, how come no detection of Aether particle collisions?

Did you see how we derived a formula for the magnetic field inside a toroid?  It was just an application of Maxwell's equations.  For this alleged A field, I would not be surprised if all that you have are sketches dreamed up by enthusiasts and a rough anecdotal "rule book" like you expressed in some of your postings.  You can't mathematically model the alleged A field, nor can you measure it with anything.  Like I said, the ice deal is a non starter as far as I am concerned.

You can buy a tshirt that shows Maxwell's equations in differential and integral form - that's the secret of the ages revealed.

There has never been a legitimate demonstration of a bunch of stacked coils showing a reduction in the acceleration due to gravity.  It's just a fantasy, all part of the belief system that you ascribe to.  Even in the graphic the author says that it "may" work like he or she needs some kind of escape clause if they are ever seriously challenged.

MileHigh

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Magnetic fields within a toroid inductor.
« Reply #79 on: September 16, 2013, 02:42:13 AM »
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Offline MileHigh

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Re: Magnetic fields within a toroid inductor.
« Reply #80 on: September 16, 2013, 03:00:11 AM »
Dave45:

Then why don't you open up a thread and explain how it works and show some free energy experiments, explain the freezing water business, the whole nine yards?  But my request is absolutely refrain from hints and teases and smoke and mirrors.  Just be straight and put forth your proposition.

MileHigh

Dave45

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Re: Magnetic fields within a toroid inductor.
« Reply #81 on: September 16, 2013, 03:03:14 AM »
The coils Iv shown create a spinning aether vortex and yes I have seen this in my ice experiments.......... :-\
never mind its usless  :-\

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Magnetic fields within a toroid inductor.
« Reply #81 on: September 16, 2013, 03:03:14 AM »
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Offline Magluvin

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Re: Magnetic fields within a toroid inductor.
« Reply #82 on: September 16, 2013, 05:21:58 AM »
The coils Iv shown create a spinning aether vortex and yes I have seen this in my ice experiments.......... :-\
never mind its usless  :-\

Hey Dave

Have you done the freeze test on a normal coil in the water?

Mags

Offline MileHigh

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Re: Magnetic fields within a toroid inductor.
« Reply #83 on: September 17, 2013, 06:56:35 AM »
I am going to try a simple example to demystify Ampere's Law and then relate it back to the toroid.  No math, just a thought experiment instead.

<<< Ampère's circuital law, discovered by André-Marie Ampère in 1826,[1] relates the integrated magnetic field around a closed loop to the electric current passing through the loop. >>>

Let's suppose you are in a room and in the center of the room there is a vertical conductor that goes from the floor to the ceiling with one ampere through it.   The current is flowing upwards.

You face the conductor and you know that you are standing in a magnetic field.  From the right hand rule you know that the magnetic field is pointing to the right.  It has a certain strength, let's call it B1.

You have a task to do.  The task is to record the magnetic field strength times the distance you have to walk around the circle of the magnetic field.  No need to ask why, you just do the task.

Now, facing the conductor all the time, you move one meter to the right.  We will say your distance from the wire is R1.  On a pad you record B1 x 1 meter.  You keep doing that and adding up the steps.  Let's suppose you move 10 meters total to make the full circle.  You end up with B1 x 10 meters.

Lets say you move closer to the wire.  We will say your distance to the wire is now R2.  Now the magnetic field strength has increased to B2.  To make the full circle this time you move only 5 meters.   So you end up with B2 x 5 meters.

In both cases you have gone full-circle and you have two summations.  Think about this:  The closer you are, the stronger the magnetic field.  And also, the closer you are the smaller distance to make the circle.   So it would seem to make sense that B1 x 10 meters should be equivalent to B2 x 5 meters.

What are the units for a magnetic field?  From Ampere's law we know that B1 x 10 meters = the current in the wire.  Think about the fact that the wire is the actual source of the magnetic field.

We can say that B x meters = Current (From Ampere's Law).   That means that B is simply equal to current/meters.   And that is indeed the case, you can express the magnetic field in the units of amperes per meter.

When you walk around the circle you you add up magnetic field in amperes per meter times the meters you walk -> that gives you amperes.

Now, suppose that there is a second wire 50 centimeters away from the first wire.  It also has one ampere of current flowing through it going upwards.   Now the magnetic field will not be the same strength in every place as you walk around the circle.  However, when you do your summation you will end up with the B x meters walked giving you a result of two amperes.  The B changes as you move but that's doesn't matter.  You end up with two amperes in the loop that you formed by walking around the two wires.

Now here is a key point.  Let's make the current in the second wire go downwards instead of upwards.   Recall that the original wire has current going from bottom to top.

As you walk around the loop and take note of the magnetic field strength it varies.  In fact when you are closer to the original wire the magnetic field is going to the right.  However, now when you are closer to the new wire with the downward current flow, the magnetic field is going to the left.  You should be able to see that part of your loop will have a "positive" field x distance summation and part of the loop will have a "negative" field times distance summation.  Therefore when you travel through the complete 360-degree loop, the summation will be "positive field x distance" plus "negative field x distance" for a net result of the distance x field summation being zero amperes.   Since one wire has one ampere of current gong from bottom to top and the other wire has one ampere of current going from top to bottom the net current going through the "walk around" loop is zero.  So it all works out, net zero amperes current flow equals net zero field times distance.

Very important point:   Even though the summation is zero, the magnetic field is not necessarily zero in this two-wire example as you walk around the loop.

Next posting for the big reveal.

MileHigh



Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Magnetic fields within a toroid inductor.
« Reply #83 on: September 17, 2013, 06:56:35 AM »
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Offline tinman

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Re: Magnetic fields within a toroid inductor.
« Reply #84 on: September 17, 2013, 07:11:53 AM »
@MH
I for one,will be looking forward to that next posting,as the first make's complete sence.
So with that being said,im about to throw a spanner in the work's with something i am building at the moment.I will try and get the video done and up by tonight-here on this thread.It's not so much a device to try and gain energy,but more a tool for learning.

Offline MileHigh

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Re: Magnetic fields within a toroid inductor.
« Reply #85 on: September 17, 2013, 07:20:34 AM »
Now suppose that you have a toroid.  Let's say that there are 100 turns and there is one ampere flowing through the wire.

As you walk around the in the center horizontal plane of the toroid, you are "seeing" 100 wires with upwards current and 100 wires with downwards current.  So you would expect that as you walk around the loop the summation will be zero net current.

Now, in the previous example you got a zero net current summation as you walked around the loop.  But depending on where you were there was a measurable magnetic field.  Sometimes it pointed left, sometimes it pointed right.

Here is the biggie:  The 100 + 100 wires that are emanating a magnetic field are all perfectly symmetrical.  The wire spacing is all evenly spread out.  You have symmetry.

Because there is symmetry in the physical layout of the wires, you are never closer to an particular "upwards" wire or a particular "downwards" wire.

Therefore you know that the field that you see as you walk around the toroid MUST be the same in all places because of the symmetry.

At the same time you know that the net current seen by the loop is 100 up + 100 down which equals zero net current.

Put those two concepts together:   The field must be the same everywhere and the summation of the field x walking through the circle must be zero.

The only magnetic field condition that will satisfy both of those requirements at the same time is for the magnetic field to be ZERO everywhere in the horizontal plane of the toroid.

This same set of conditions will apply if you are outside the toroid or if you are inside the "doughnut hole" of the toroid.

Inside the toroid itself is a different story, and in this thread we already showed what the magnetic field looks like inside the toroid.

MileHigh

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Magnetic fields within a toroid inductor.
« Reply #85 on: September 17, 2013, 07:20:34 AM »
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Offline xee2

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Re: Magnetic fields within a toroid inductor.
« Reply #86 on: September 17, 2013, 11:02:13 AM »

Very important point:   Even though the summation is zero, the magnetic field is not necessarily zero in this two-wire example as you walk around the loop.



Yes. When the sum of the fields is zero, both fields are still present. Just because the net field strength at some point is zero, it does not mean that there is no magnetic field at that point. It only means you can not detect the field at that point. The fields do not magically disappear, they are still there. I see many text books saying that the magnetic field "disappears" and that is not true.

Offline xee2

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Re: Magnetic fields within a toroid inductor.
« Reply #87 on: September 17, 2013, 11:19:47 AM »

Because there is symmetry in the physical layout of the wires, you are never closer to an particular "upwards" wire or a particular "downwards" wire.

MileHigh


You lost me there. The distance to any particular wire will change as you move (unless you move in a circle around it).


Offline tinman

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Re: Magnetic fields within a toroid inductor.
« Reply #88 on: September 17, 2013, 07:24:23 PM »
I think i may have found a time lag in the magnetic field,from the outer part of the core,to the inner part of the core-or something like that???
Ok,we have a toroid core with three windings of equal length and wire size raped around the toroid core.1 is our primary,and the other two are the secondaries.Each secondary has a 100 ohm load resistor across it. Using an ac input to the primary,is it possable to get a phase shift between the two secondaries? from 0* right through to 180* out,simply by raising the frequency?.

Offline xee2

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Re: Magnetic fields within a toroid inductor.
« Reply #89 on: September 17, 2013, 10:33:15 PM »
I think i may have found a time lag in the magnetic field,from the outer part of the core,to the inner part of the core-or something like that???
Ok,we have a toroid core with three windings of equal length and wire size raped around the toroid core.1 is our primary,and the other two are the secondaries.Each secondary has a 100 ohm load resistor across it. Using an ac input to the primary,is it possable to get a phase shift between the two secondaries? from 0* right through to 180* out,simply by raising the frequency?.



My first guess would be no. Both secondaries are driven by the same flux path circulating in the toroid and therefore will have the same output if they are identical. However, if the primary is next to one of the secondaries, then it is possible that there is capacitive coupling between that secondary and the primary which does not exist for the other secondary. This creates a more complex circuit which may produce a difference in phase shift between the two secondaries. Are you actually seeing this? Does it happen when the primary is not near the secondary coils? Do the secondaries have a different capacitance to ground? As the frequency is increased, even very small (often unnoticed) capacitances will create all sorts of funny problems in ccircuits. That is why professional engineers are very careful to avoid stray capacitance.
 






 

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