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Author Topic: Magnetic fields within a toroid inductor.  (Read 77173 times)

Offline Farmhand

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Re: Magnetic fields within a toroid inductor.
« Reply #15 on: September 13, 2013, 04:14:38 AM »
AS far as my telling people to disregard MileHighs post in the Coil For Electromagnets thread, I said that because I felt a lot of posts were distracting from the actual effect Tesla intended to show.

Tell me MileHigh do you still deny that the voltage applied to a Coil For Electromagnets as described in the patent will change the resonant frequency due to capacitor plate separation distance and "effective" capacitance secured as a result of the voltage applied ?

If the plates are a certain distance apart then a certain voltage is required to secure the full capacitance possible. Simple.

I also described Synchro as an extremist, and in the context of that thread I felt it was true. The theory is sound. Tesla describes it in his patent and I explained how it is so.

Did Tesla lie about the claims ? I say no. The thread had nothing to do with the possible uses of the coil. It was to investigate the validity of the patent claims. They are true and correct. Yet some very educated people denied that was even possible. Gotta wonder who has the ego.

I say we all have ego's and ego is not a dirty word. 

Just like this song by Skyhooks explains.  :)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UduuxKdPt9Q

Cheers


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Re: Magnetic fields within a toroid inductor.
« Reply #15 on: September 13, 2013, 04:14:38 AM »

Offline MileHigh

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Re: Magnetic fields within a toroid inductor.
« Reply #16 on: September 13, 2013, 04:41:22 AM »
Farmhand:

This is off topic but there are no substantive claims made in the patent.  You are reading something into the patent that is not there.  The patent just describes the architecture of the physical coil and says that it will have no impedance at the self-resonant frequency which is exactly what is supposed to happen.  It's a patent that tells you how to build something and makes a comment about how it will behave at the self-resonant frequency.  Beyond that there are no claims.  And yes, the capacitance is not a function of the voltage in a general sense and I see no reason that the Tesla bifilar coil would have any special capacitance vs. voltage relationship.

Beyond that, to say "don't listen to that guy" on a discussion board is inappropriate to the extreme.  How would you like it if somebody said to ignore all of your postings?  Take that to the limit and you don't have a forum anymore.

Anyway, that's all water under the bridge and nobody that I am aware of ever made a significant demo of a "series bifilar coil" that showed any special redeeming qualities above and beyond a regular coil or above and beyond a regular coil in parallel with a tiny capacitor.  As far as I am concerned this is just over reading of a document from the 19th century and imagining you can apply it to all sorts of unconnected and unrelated applications without any rational reason behind it.

Sorry Tinman, back to your thread.  With respect to your clip, using a magnet as a core does not make any sense.  I know that you see it being done everywhere but the simple fact is that it does not make any sense.  The purpose of the core is to allow itself to get polarized in any direction so that it can store magnetic energy.  A magnet as a core is already polarized in a fixed direction and by definition is not designed to store magnetic energy.

MileHigh

Offline Pirate88179

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Re: Magnetic fields within a toroid inductor.
« Reply #17 on: September 13, 2013, 05:46:02 AM »
MH:

What about a core made from a neo magnet that has been heated above the currie temp. to demagnetize it?  Would the properties that allow such a strong magnetic field to be had from the neo make it a good core choice then?  Or, would it try to be magnetized when the field is on and then not collapse?  The best thing I can find so far is Metglas.

Bill

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Re: Magnetic fields within a toroid inductor.
« Reply #17 on: September 13, 2013, 05:46:02 AM »
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Offline MileHigh

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Re: Magnetic fields within a toroid inductor.
« Reply #18 on: September 13, 2013, 07:33:07 AM »
Bill:

I haven't read up on magnetic core properties in a while but without brushing up on the subject I am quite certain the answer is no.  I am assuming that the raw unmagnetized  neodymium material has a very fat BH "S" curve.  In other words it has a fat hysteresis loop and the area inside the hysteresis loop represents lost energy after you do a complete travel around the loop.  It also would have very high remanence (also shown in the BH curve) and that's the last thing you want in an inductor core.  You want the core to be made of a material that can easily be temporarily magnetized and just as easily give up all of that stored magnetic energy (low remanence) and go back to a neutral state, all with a minimal loss of energy.

From what I recall a Metglas core has next to zero remanence and very high permeability and they make it in ribbon-like spools that form insulated layers to keep eddy current losses to a bare minimum.  I believe it's an expensive and exotic way to implement a core and as a result its very high in performance.  One assumes that for more "mainstream" cores the standard core materials are still in use because they are much cheaper.  Take this all with a grain of salt because I don't regularly scour the Internet reading up on cores.

Going back to using magnets in cores, a point that I made a few times is that the magnetization of the core can't by definition affect anything.  The magnetization is a DC-type phenomenon and all the "action" is in the realm of AC.  So the magnetization is invisible and has no affect on the AC circuit.  You just end up with a magnet doing a lousy job as a core.  You often see people posting, and you see free energy propositions, where people claim that using a magnet as a core means that the magnet will give an "extra kick" to the return energy but it's not true, it's just an old wives' tale.  All that you have to do is build your circuit twice, one version with a proper core and the second version with a magnet as a core and compare them if you are the type that needs to prove these things for yourself.  However, in this case, understanding all of the issues is ten times more important than building a test circuit.

MileHigh

Offline tinman

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Re: Magnetic fields within a toroid inductor.
« Reply #19 on: September 13, 2013, 02:27:19 PM »
@MH
Quote: Going back to using magnets in cores, a point that I made a few times is that the magnetization of the core can't by definition affect anything.

So i guess this being the case,i should ask as to why i am able to get a voltage out of the coil that is sitting 3/4 of an inch away from the toroid coil?.We can see(other than the phase shift due to high frequency)that it seems to be coupled to the pulsed input> Now this is an AC input,but i dont see that makeing a difference?.
If the fields are contained within the core,i should get nothing in the way of voltage in the secondary coil?.

A test thought.
If i take a standard toroid coil(non magnetised core)and place a magnet above the center,when applying a dc current to the toroid coil,the magnet above should have less attraction due to core saturation?. If i get a stronger pull on the PM when a dc current is applied,this could only mean an eminating magnetic field-correct?.
Just trying to think how we could test to see if there is an eminating magnetic field from the toroid.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Magnetic fields within a toroid inductor.
« Reply #19 on: September 13, 2013, 02:27:19 PM »
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Offline Magluvin

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Re: Magnetic fields within a toroid inductor.
« Reply #20 on: September 14, 2013, 04:22:13 AM »
Yes Mr Eric Dollard is confused by toroidal transformer induction and says no one knows how it happens.  ;D  So I linked that PDF at EF maybe over 1 year ago.  ;) In response to mbrowne.

Although I think it is theoretical.

I think bench tests are in order.

Cheers

Yes, tests. ;)

When we consider how 1 wire can induce another wire using Ac or pulse input, then why would we ignore it within a transformer?  ;)   When I see vids on YT on the subject or even in books(havnt read them all) they tend to show a core, primary and secondary and depict magnetic field lines in the cores. But I dont see much about how that field, locked in the core(lets say most of it) produced by the primary, induces current in the secondary. Its like they skip that part and what they show is all there is to know apparently. ::) That pdf I posted gives those answers, and those answers explain clearly how that mutual induction works within a toroid or any other transformer with a closed loop core.

One experiment that might be interesting is to just have 2 wires, a primary and a secondary of particular length laying next to each other and pulse the primary while reading the secondary. Then get a bunch of toroids stacked almost the length of the wires and run the 2 wires through the cores where we have the ends of the wires coming out of each end of the core stack and redo those tests to see if there is a difference.


I have a 10 pack of linear hall sensors coming from China. Will see what we can see. ;)

Mags

Offline Magluvin

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Re: Magnetic fields within a toroid inductor.
« Reply #21 on: September 14, 2013, 05:02:01 AM »
@MH
Quote: Going back to using magnets in cores, a point that I made a few times is that the magnetization of the core can't by definition affect anything.

So i guess this being the case,i should ask as to why i am able to get a voltage out of the coil that is sitting 3/4 of an inch away from the toroid coil?.We can see(other than the phase shift due to high frequency)that it seems to be coupled to the pulsed input> Now this is an AC input,but i dont see that makeing a difference?.
If the fields are contained within the core,i should get nothing in the way of voltage in the secondary coil?.

A test thought.
If i take a standard toroid coil(non magnetised core)and place a magnet above the center,when applying a dc current to the toroid coil,the magnet above should have less attraction due to core saturation?. If i get a stronger pull on the PM when a dc current is applied,this could only mean an eminating magnetic field-correct?.
Just trying to think how we could test to see if there is an eminating magnetic field from the toroid.

Hey Tin

If your core is a magnet, then thats why you get output from a coil near the toroid coil.

The magnet has a field that can reach the pickup coil. Then when you pulse the toroid coil, it alters the magnet(core) field from normal to the altered field, thus giving you output in your pickup coil due to the flexing of the magnets field. ;) ;D   Use a normal core and you should not get much of anything from the pickup, unless the core becomes saturated due to large input that produces a field so strong that it cant hold anymore, so the excess field expands outward to induce the pickup coil.

As for  "If i take a standard toroid coil(non magnetised core)and place a magnet above the center,when applying a dc current to the toroid coil,the magnet above should have less attraction due to core saturation?."

This is the concept of Steorn's Orbo motor.  My Orbonbon solid state Orbo uses the same concept of controlling a cores attraction ability to direct a magnets field elsewhere in order to induce a field in a pickup coil.  Here is a vid of my tiny toroid orbo. The magnets of the rotor are attracted to the toroid core, and when the toroid coil is pulsed, just when the mag is right at the core, the coil saturates the core and lets the magnet pass by. ;D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FrtGzxOKpwQ

And here is the Orbonbon vid.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ES00DfhHH-U

The Orbonbon has a core in a core, where the inner core is wound with a pickup coil around the circumference of the inner bead core. Then I wind that inner bead core with a toroid winding also.

Pulsing the toroid winding has little affect on the pickup coil, I have a few vids on this, but when I insert magnets in the inner core, those N and S fields of the magnets are attracted to the inner core due to proximity. Then when we pulse the toroid coil, the inner core saturates and the magnets are not attracted to it anymore and the fields jump to the outer core, in which the flux 'cuts' the pickup coil. Then when the pulse is over, the flux jumps back to the inner core, due to shortest path, and it induces the pickup coil again causing an opposite output as the flux cuts the pickup coil again, only inward this time. So we get a positive pulse out when the toroid coil is energized, and neg out when the toroid pulse drops.  ;) ;D

Mags

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Magnetic fields within a toroid inductor.
« Reply #21 on: September 14, 2013, 05:02:01 AM »
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Offline tinman

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Re: Magnetic fields within a toroid inductor.
« Reply #23 on: September 14, 2013, 10:34:19 AM »
Here is another oddity found today,while looking into field strength over P/in of the rotor of the new high powered pulse motor project-the Altipulse.
Now we all know how an alternator works-right?.
Well in this video,i seem to be missing one polarity of the magnetic field???.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t5nrlGpCB9I

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Magnetic fields within a toroid inductor.
« Reply #23 on: September 14, 2013, 10:34:19 AM »
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Offline MileHigh

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Re: Magnetic fields within a toroid inductor.
« Reply #24 on: September 14, 2013, 05:14:09 PM »
Tinman:

Quote
why i am able to get a voltage out of the coil that is sitting 3/4 of an inch away from the toroid coil?

It's because the main coil is actually two coils in one.  The main toroidal coil is one coil and the the single big loop of the entire toroidal coil is another coil - a single turn coil.  There are no fields of any significance radiating from the main toroidal coil.  The coupling you are seeing is between your pick-up coil and the single big loop.  That looks like two coils on the same center axis facing each other, N turns of your pick-up coil and one turn of your driving coil.  It's an N:1 air core transformer with a 3/4 inch gap between the coils.

Quote
We can see(other than the phase shift due to high frequency)that it seems to be coupled to the pulsed input

The phase shift looks like it is nearly exactly 90 degrees, and that could be significant.  With an N:1 air core transformer coupling a signal between the two coils there should be no phase shift.  I can't explain any more beyond that.

One possibility is that your excitation frequency is very high and the coil is not functioning like a coil anymore, and the parasitic capacitance has taken over.  If I were in your shoes I would do a frequency sweep and observe what happens to the phase shifts and current amplitudes to figure out what is going on.

Quote
If i take a standard toroid coil(non magnetised core)and place a magnet above the center,when applying a dc current to the toroid coil,the magnet above should have less attraction due to core saturation?. If i get a stronger pull on the PM when a dc current is applied,this could only mean an eminating magnetic field-correct?.

Yes you should get less attraction due to core saturation.  However, you have the field generated from the toroid like I mentioned above, where toroid does generate a magnetic field from the equivalent single-turn coil.  That will cause attraction or repulsion.  So there will be two effects happening at the same time.  Also, the degree of perceived saturation from the point of view of the magnet may be different if the magnet is above the toroid as compared to if the magnet is on the side of the toroid.  It also will depend on how how much current is flowing through the toroidal coil.  How do you know how much current is required to saturate the core?  Maybe the core will only be 90% saturated as an example.

Everything has direction when playing with magnetic fields.  I suspect that when the magnet is above the toroid that the perceived degree of saturation will be less as compared to when the magnet is on the side of the toroid.  That's because there is perhaps more of an opportunity to "bend" the direction of the magnetic domains as compared to when the magnet is beside the toroid.  I have never done any of this stuff, I am just trying to crunch this in my head.

Quote
Here is another oddity found today,while looking into field strength over P/in of the rotor of the new high powered pulse motor project-the Altipulse.
Now we all know how an alternator works-right?.
Well in this video,i seem to be missing one polarity of the magnetic field???.

This looks like nothing more than current steering with diodes and two sets of coils.  So how do you check for the presence of the diodes?

MileHigh

Offline MileHigh

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Re: Magnetic fields within a toroid inductor.
« Reply #25 on: September 14, 2013, 05:51:27 PM »
Wake up indeed.

http://www.tuks.nl/pdf/Reference_Material/Andersen_AETHER_CONTROL_via_an_understanding_of_ORTHOGONAL_FIELDS.pdf

Take a bunch of toroids and stack them all you want and they will not negate the force of gravity in any way.  These "drive by" links that don't have anything to really contribute to the discussion are tedious.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Magnetic fields within a toroid inductor.
« Reply #25 on: September 14, 2013, 05:51:27 PM »
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Offline tinman

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Re: Magnetic fields within a toroid inductor.
« Reply #26 on: September 14, 2013, 06:00:16 PM »
@MH
Quote: This looks like nothing more than current steering with diodes and two sets of coils.  So how do you check for the presence of the diodes?

This is just a standard alternator electromagnetic rotor setup. There is no diodes in the rotor coil,as it is powered by a DC current-normal setup. Where i have the P/in going,is just each end of the coil.
It is a bit strange,but at a higher p/in to the coil,the effect starts to go away,and both fields become apparent.Just found it a bit odd,so thought i would post it.

Offline MileHigh

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Re: Magnetic fields within a toroid inductor.
« Reply #27 on: September 14, 2013, 06:34:42 PM »
Timnan:

I don't recognize that motor(?) configuration at all.  Are we looking at what is normally an AC alternator, a DC generator, or is it normally an AC motor or a DC motor?  What kind of equipment is it from?

I am not so clear on how you normally power this device. (If it is powered)  I see the two slip rings.  If you apply power to the slip rings do you apply AC or DC?

MileHigh

Offline MileHigh

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Re: Magnetic fields within a toroid inductor.
« Reply #28 on: September 14, 2013, 07:02:57 PM »
Tinman:

Quote
There is no diodes in the rotor coil,as it is powered by a DC current-normal setup.

That's not what your clip is indicating when you flip the polarity.  From what I can see your clip shows all the indications that there are two separate coils and there is current steering into the coils with diodes unless I am missing something or unaware of something.  So I am challenging you and your buddies here and possibly your buddies on your own forum to figure out what is going on with that device.  How to test for the presence of diodes would be a key part of the investigation.

MileHigh

Dave45

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Re: Magnetic fields within a toroid inductor.
« Reply #29 on: September 14, 2013, 07:51:23 PM »
Wake up indeed.

http://www.tuks.nl/pdf/Reference_Material/Andersen_AETHER_CONTROL_via_an_understanding_of_ORTHOGONAL_FIELDS.pdf

Take a bunch of toroids and stack them all you want and they will not negate the force of gravity in any way.  These "drive by" links that don't have anything to really contribute to the discussion are tedious.

you couldnt see the truth if it slapped you up side the head


 

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