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Mechanical free energy devices => mechanic => Topic started by: gammarayburst on September 05, 2013, 09:00:53 PM

Title: Proof of Overunity From Magnets Fixture, No Negative Work Aspect, LaFonte
Post by: gammarayburst on September 05, 2013, 09:00:53 PM
This is about as clear as it gets when demonstrating overunity with magnets. I have attached 4 drawings. I very much need someone to help me that can do a 3D rotating animation of this to help every one see the operation and aid the building process. I have tested this at home many many times over the years and posted video's on youtube of the Pseudo Solid effect. What was needed to make it work for a demonstration fixture is the angle cut on the end of the top bar that I show in the drawings. The operation is as follows.
1. The two magnets in the lower bar pull the upper bar down flush with it doing positive work with the force of the two NIB magnets, 1" by 1" cylinder grade 48.
2. One of the two magnets is now moved in Pseudo solid fashion to the top bar with no work to speak of. The magnet is floating with equal but opposite forces on both poles between the two side bars. There is a .003" air gap between the magnet ends and the bars slide surface. This air gap is filled in with a low friction plastic.
3. Now the two magnets can repel each other doing positive work because they are in two separate fixtures.
4. As the top bar repels up, the angle at it's end becomes flush with the bar surface.
5. Now you move the upper magnet down the path shown in pseudo solid fashion with no work to speak of.
6. The cycle repeats.
7. Converting the principle to a practical machine is just a matter of engineering.
Please someone help me with a 3D rotating animation so everyone can see this simple operation.
See attached
Thanks, Butch LaFonte
Title: Re: Proof of Overunity From Magnets Fixture, No Negative Work Aspect, LaFonte
Post by: norman6538 on September 06, 2013, 04:29:26 AM
Butch, good to see your post. I don't understand how the magnet in step 2 and 4 can easily
be moved because a magnet almost touching iron wants to stay where it is.

"2. One of the two magnets is now moved in Pseudo solid fashion to the top bar with no work
 to speak of."    ( a magnet near metal will want to stay where it is ie not slide easily)

Norman
Title: Re: Proof of Overunity From Magnets Fixture, No Negative Work Aspect, LaFonte
Post by: gammarayburst on September 06, 2013, 06:06:52 AM
Norman, it will slide so easy you could push it with a feather. Think of sliding a magnet down the side of a file cabinet with an air gap of .003" between the magnet and metal side. That is what I base the whole Pseudo Solid principle on. It won't grab on to anything till it gets to the end of the metal cabinet. There is no end with the bars in this. I have many video's showing this on youtube at the LaFonte Research and LaFonte Group site for 5 years now. Think of a magnet sliding down the front of your refrigerator door. The only reason it does not slide all the time is because of the friction between it and the door surface. Put an air gap of .003" between the two and watch it slide down like a rock being dropped.

Butch
Title: Re: Proof of Overunity From Magnets Fixture, No Negative Work Aspect, LaFonte
Post by: LibreEnergia on September 06, 2013, 06:50:02 AM
Hardly a convincing demonstration of anything at all here.

No measurements of the actual forces involved,  No accounting for the fact that would need to be work input to lift the magnet up to counter its weight.

 
Title: Re: Proof of Overunity From Magnets Fixture, No Negative Work Aspect, LaFonte
Post by: norman6538 on September 06, 2013, 11:00:20 AM
Butch, I just took 3 different ceramic magnets on a 3x5 note card which is about .010 and
they all stick to the fridge. Does it have to be .003?

Norman
Title: Re: Proof of Overunity From Magnets Fixture, No Negative Work Aspect, LaFonte
Post by: tinman on September 06, 2013, 12:53:32 PM
@ norman
He did say an air gap,not a shim between the fridge and magnet,as friction would still apply.
You could always use a cylinder magnet insted,as they will just roll straight down the fridge door-as long as it's not diametricly magnetised.
Title: Re: Proof of Overunity From Magnets Fixture, No Negative Work Aspect, LaFonte
Post by: gammarayburst on September 06, 2013, 03:01:36 PM

 
Hardly a convincing demonstration of anything at all here.


No measurements of the actual forces involved,  No accounting for the fact that would need to be work input to lift the magnet up to counter its weight.
Did you ever think about turning the fixture sideways? Then the magnets are not lifted but rather slide from one point to another. Also, when you lift something to a point it will have potential energy. Notice how high the magnet is lifted by the swing bar due to repulsion from the bottom bar. That is about 5 times more potential energy added to it so when it's time to slide down back to the bottom bar it will have released more energy than it took to lift it that 1 inch in the second step. Also the work done by the NIB magnets when pulling the swing bar down and repelling it up is about 100 times more than the work needed to slide that little old magnet 1 inch. I have 35 years hands on experience with these magnets and have posted countless videos on youtube of the Pseudo Solid principle. One last thing, where can I go to see video's of your work? I'm very interested in seeing them.
Butch
Title: More views on drawings
Post by: gammarayburst on September 06, 2013, 07:36:09 PM
See attached
Title: Re: Proof of Overunity From Magnets Fixture, No Negative Work Aspect, LaFonte
Post by: Nali2001 on September 06, 2013, 11:07:11 PM
Made the 3d animation for easier understanding:

http://home.planet.nl/~sintt000/ButchVideo.wmv

Also attached below:
Title: Re: Proof of Overunity From Magnets Fixture, No Negative Work Aspect, LaFonte
Post by: gammarayburst on September 06, 2013, 11:22:15 PM
Made the 3d animation for easier understanding:

http://home.planet.nl/~sintt000/ButchVideo.wmv (http://home.planet.nl/~sintt000/ButchVideo.wmv)

Also attached below:
Thank you so much! But you left out the most powerful step. It's when the two magnets are in the bottom bars and the top swing bars are raised up all the way and are pulled down with a huge attraction force by those two bottom magnets. That is the first step and the most powerful. With that added it will be perfect! Thanks so much!
Butch
Title: Sequence of operation explained super simple
Post by: gammarayburst on September 06, 2013, 11:57:45 PM
1. Swing bars are all the way up.
2. They are pulled down by by the attraction force of the two magnets in the bottom bar set. This is a huge force and can damage fingers if they are in the way.
3. Now one of the magnets in the bottom set is moved in Pseudo Solid fashion to the top bar set and now the two bar sets are in repulsion.
4. The top bar set is repelled away for it's full travel.
5. Now the magnet in the top bar set is move in Pseudo Solid fashion to the bottom bar set and the sequence starts over again with the top bar set being pulled down to the two magnets in the lower set.


That makes two positive power cycles, one attraction and one repulsion and no negative power cycle at all in the sequence.
Title: Re: Proof of Overunity From Magnets Fixture, No Negative Work Aspect, LaFonte
Post by: Nali2001 on September 07, 2013, 12:10:41 AM
Interesting, I wonder though, Although in-between steel, how 'easily' these two magnets really want to get next to each other.
I know the steel 'sandwitching' reduces the repulsion, I wonder how low the between-magnet repulsion really is.

Steven
Title: Re: Proof of Overunity From Magnets Fixture, No Negative Work Aspect, LaFonte
Post by: gyulasun on September 07, 2013, 12:40:44 AM
Here is Butch's earlier video on how easy to separate two magnets in attraction next to each other:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mhfqe2dyR3s 

Perhaps Butch has done the test for magnets in repulsion between the two parallel bars and experienced how the repel force got reduced.

Gyula

Title: Re: Proof of Overunity From Magnets Fixture, No Negative Work Aspect, LaFonte
Post by: gammarayburst on September 07, 2013, 01:00:34 AM
Steven, I will send you video links. You will not believe how the attraction and repulsion forces are reduced when the magnet is between the two bars.
It's as though they are no longer magnets! I have shown on video many times how you can take your little finger and with next to no effort move that grade 48 NIB up to where it is touching another grade 48 and there is no repulsion! But all the flux from the two magnets goes out of the bars just looking for something to grab hold of. But when out of the bars only the strongest of men can push the two magnets together. I named the effect Pseudo Solid effect because when I was a kids in grade school I noticed a magnet would slide down or up a file cabinet with ease but grab on to it when you got to the end. I later during research put two bars together and it's crossed them as though the two were one solid piece. I then though up the name Pseudo Solid. What is down right magical is how the two magnets pull a second bar to them with huge force but when you just simply slide one magnet to that second bar the two bars jump to repelling each other. Now getting the magnets back together again was the problem. As you see in the animation you did that sliding them in Pseudo solid fashion was the answer. Something super important > The magnet with say a .003" air gap between each pole and the bar surface has to maintain that gap and it must be equal on both ends of the magnet. This allows the magnet to "float" because of equal but opposite forces on each end. Then fill the air gap with a low friction plastic and you can slide that magnet as though it was a piece of wood between two pieces of wood. Eddy currents can be eliminated 5 or more different ways so they pose no problem. I will send video links.
Butch
Title: Re: Proof of Overunity From Magnets Fixture, No Negative Work Aspect, LaFonte
Post by: tinman on September 07, 2013, 01:13:02 PM
@ gammarayburst
That is because the fields are now traveling through the steel itself,insted of from magnet to magnet.
I watched the video posted ,and see no OU there at all,but more a missunderstanding of force over distance.
At the end of the day,the total energy gained between both attraction motions,is equal to the energy required to remove the two steel bar's from the magnet's ,so the action can be repeated.

No overunity here,but more miss calculations.
Title: Re: Proof of Overunity From Magnets Fixture, No Negative Work Aspect, LaFonte
Post by: norman6538 on September 07, 2013, 02:18:10 PM
I don't understand this Butch   - you said
" What is down right  magical is how the two magnets pull a second bar to them with huge force
    but when you just simply  slide one magnet to that second bar the two bars jump to repelling each other."

I think its about this point.
Two magnets lying side beside each other with North up will repel each other but
if one is South up then they will attract each other. Is that part of what you mean?

Amazingly if the two magnets are twisted 90 degrees there is no attract or repel
and twisted 180 degrees and you have the opposite force but it takes work to twist
the magnets and I have measured that force to be about as much as the work you
can get from the twist. What we need simply is a small force applied that releases
a larger force and we at the overunity touchdown.

Norman
Title: Re: Proof of Overunity From Magnets Fixture, No Negative Work Aspect, LaFonte
Post by: elecar on September 07, 2013, 03:51:49 PM
Hi Norman, watch this video   http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mhfqe2dyR3s

When the two magnets are between the two steel bars they can be manipulated easily.

Now if you place two steel bars the same above the two lower ones it is attracted to the steel bars below. If you then slide one of the magnets between the upper two bars they will then repel each other. If you drop that magnet back between the lower two bars the bars are Strongly attracted again.
Title: Re: Proof of Overunity From Magnets Fixture, No Negative Work Aspect, LaFonte
Post by: gammarayburst on September 07, 2013, 04:32:26 PM
Tinman, that video was just to show the Pseudo Solid effect and has nothing to do with this design.

Title: Re: Proof of Overunity From Magnets Fixture, No Negative Work Aspect, LaFonte
Post by: tinman on September 07, 2013, 04:47:29 PM
Tinman, that video was just to show the Pseudo Solid effect and has nothing to do with this design.
@ gammarayburst
Quote: That makes two positive power cycles, one attraction and one repulsion and no negative power cycle at all in the sequence.

Have you actualy built this device ,and tested your theroy?
I am thinking no,as you would have posted a video to show us by now.
There is one force you have missed,and this will become apparent when you build the device-as per the 3D rendering. This is the negative power(as you call it) that you think isnt there.
Can you spot where that will be?.
Title: Re: Proof of Overunity From Magnets Fixture, No Negative Work Aspect, LaFonte
Post by: elecar on September 07, 2013, 04:57:23 PM
Hi Gamma.  Perhaps if you use more than 1 set of bars and magnets you can use the work produced to manipulate the movable magnet in each set.
Here is a crude set up to show how they could be moved. NOTE the disc would be turned by the work done on the attract stoke and is not shown on my simple drawing.


Title: Re: Proof of Overunity From Magnets Fixture, No Negative Work Aspect, LaFonte
Post by: gammarayburst on September 07, 2013, 05:15:31 PM
@ gammarayburst
Quote: That makes two positive power cycles, one attraction and one repulsion and no negative power cycle at all in the sequence.

Have you actualy built this device ,and tested your theroy?
I am thinking no,as you would have posted a video to show us by now.
There is one force you have missed,and this will become apparent when you build the device-as per the 3D rendering. This is the negative power(as you call it) that you think isnt there.
Can you spot where that will be?.
Yes we have built every aspect of this except the V cut we added which is an improvement and put them on video. It works, just need to get an animation that is coming of the full sequence of operation. Then build a demo and video it. You seem to be on to something yourself, do you have a link so we can view it.
Butch
Title: Re: Proof of Overunity From Magnets Fixture, No Negative Work Aspect, LaFonte
Post by: gammarayburst on September 07, 2013, 05:20:40 PM
Hi Gamma.  Perhaps if you use more than 1 set of bars and magnets you can use the work produced to manipulate the movable magnet in each set.
Here is a crude set up to show how they could be moved. NOTE the disc would be turned by the work done on the attract stoke and is not shown on my simple drawing.
Elecar, that is very creative! I knew people would start taking the basic principle and apply it to something practical. Great idea!
Butch
Title: Re: Proof of Overunity From Magnets Fixture, No Negative Work Aspect, LaFonte
Post by: gammarayburst on September 07, 2013, 05:28:05 PM
I don't understand this Butch   - you said
" What is down right  magical is how the two magnets pull a second bar to them with huge force
    but when you just simply  slide one magnet to that second bar the two bars jump to repelling each other."

I think its about this point.
Two magnets lying side beside each other with North up will repel each other but
if one is South up then they will attract each other. Is that part of what you mean?

Amazingly if the two magnets are twisted 90 degrees there is no attract or repel
and twisted 180 degrees and you have the opposite force but it takes work to twist
the magnets and I have measured that force to be about as much as the work you
can get from the twist. What we need simply is a small force applied that releases
a larger force and we at the overunity touchdown.

Norman
Norman, round up 4 square bars and put two magnets in one pair as shown in the drawing. Now let the empty second bar set be pulled to the set with the magnets in it. Now slide in Pseudo Solid fashion one magnet to the empty bar set and slide it above the remaining magnet that is in the lower bar set. Now notice the two bar sets repel each other. You never have to rotate the magnets at all. They stay both North poles side by side the entire time.
Butch
Title: Re: Proof of Overunity From Magnets Fixture, No Negative Work Aspect, LaFonte
Post by: tinman on September 07, 2013, 05:31:20 PM
Yes we have built every aspect of this except the V cut we added which is an improvement and put them on video. It works, just need to get an animation that is coming of the full sequence of operation. Then build a demo and video it. You seem to be on to something yourself, do you have a link so we can view it.
Butch
I have something that works on a similar priciple,but differs from your setup.However,the actions are the same,as i expect the forces will be.
But for now,i will wait an see how your device work's.
The one thing i will say is-have you measured the force required to slide the moving magnet from the bottom steel bar,to the top steel bar?
Remember-every action has an equal and opposite reaction
If you have truely found a way to circumvent this law,then you have just rewriten history.
Title: Re: Proof of Overunity From Magnets Fixture, No Negative Work Aspect, LaFonte
Post by: gammarayburst on September 07, 2013, 06:07:56 PM
If the forces on the magnet poles are equal but opposite and the magnet is in a "floating state" then you can blow on the magnet with your lung power and move the magnet. The trick is to get the forces perfectly equal but opposite. The machines would in production be built with CNC and be very precision.
Butch
Title: Re: Proof of Overunity From Magnets Fixture, No Negative Work Aspect, LaFonte
Post by: norman6538 on September 07, 2013, 06:46:19 PM
Butch's suggested test works.
 I just did it with 3 inches of bar. With ceramics the attraction goes away but there is no repel
and with my small button neos there is a slight repel.

I'm working on understanding that strangeness but maybe I really don't need to know.

But where I still have problems is with the measurement of the sliding force.
I have been fooled too many times by the feel in my hand when I actually
used weights to do the moving. And you have to use foot pounds to know the real
work done. weight times distance.

Butch suggested testing magnets with a gap/spacer on a fridge and mine all stay put
and do not slide down. I also used a moving arm and a magnet over metal and it wants to stay put and takes work to move it. The closer and stronger the more work it takes.

Norman

butch said.

Norman, round up 4 square bars and put two magnets in one pair as shown in the drawing. Now
 let the empty second bar set be pulled to the set with the magnets in it. Now slide in
 Pseudo Solid fashion one magnet to the empty bar set and slide it above the remaining
  magnet that is in the lower bar set. Now notice the two bar sets repel each other. You
  never have to rotate the magnets at all. They stay both North poles side by side the
   entire time.
Title: Re: Proof of Overunity From Magnets Fixture, No Negative Work Aspect, LaFonte
Post by: gammarayburst on September 07, 2013, 08:02:26 PM
Norman, Think of the frig magnet this way. You take a small toy car with hard wheels and drill a hole through the top and all the way through and out the bottom. Now place your magnet in the hole and secure it so that there is an air gap of 1/32" or 1/16" between the magnet surface and the frig door surface.
Now put the car on the frig front door with the front of the car facing to the ground and let it go. It will rocket to the bottom of the door. I promise.
Butch
Title: Re: Proof of Overunity From Magnets Fixture, No Negative Work Aspect, LaFonte
Post by: norman6538 on September 07, 2013, 10:58:41 PM
Butch was right about the car with wheels. I took a matchbox car and removed the body
and drilled a 1/4 hole through the flat bottom and inserted a neo and stacked two larger ones on top for extra strength. Sitting on top of an electrical plate which is heavier than the matchbox car and magnets it will pick up the plate but tilted about 45 degrees it will roll right off the plate. If there is no magnet it will roll off with very little tilt. Thanks Butch for getting me through this. The gap between the neo and the elec plate is less than 1/8 inch.

Norman
Title: Re: Proof of Overunity From Magnets Fixture, No Negative Work Aspect, LaFonte
Post by: gammarayburst on September 07, 2013, 11:31:28 PM
Great job Norman! The reason is does not roll off when the plate is at a few degrees is I feel because the pull of the magnet is putting a binding or high friction load on the wheel bearings and maybe a flat spot on the tires.
Want to see it really go at just a few degrees? Put the magnet in a bar of soap and wet the steel and soap.
You are probably getting a slight amount of eddy current drag also. That is eliminated  in the design through new materials science, coated powdered iron in pressed form for example.
Also I have attached drawing to help everyone.
Thanks Norman,
Butch
Title: Re: Proof of Overunity From Magnets Fixture, No Negative Work Aspect, LaFonte
Post by: norman6538 on September 08, 2013, 02:56:02 AM
Testing past the feel. The car weighs 38 grams and with the neos it takes about
185 grams to lift it off the metal. With the magnets the car can be roll started/towed with 20 grams. Without the magnets on a wood surface the car  can be roll started/towed with 5 grams.
So we can see how much work it would take to switch the attraction on and off. The next measurement needs to be how much work can be done with the switching off and on.
Then we know if this is an OU devce for sure. I'll work at that but maybe someone will beat me to it. I have to think through the measurement setups and my brain works in spurts on and
off.

One real gotcha is at a distance we loose a lot of power.
And we pay for switching two times - once on and once off.
If we get over the gotchas then Butch has succeeded very well.

Norman

Title: Re: Proof of Overunity From Magnets Fixture, No Negative Work Aspect, LaFonte
Post by: gammarayburst on September 08, 2013, 04:39:57 AM
Norman, you should try testing this with metal on both ends of the magnet so that friction is taken out of the equation. So forces on the magnet are equal but opposite and the magnet is in a floating state. I feel 90% or more of what your having to overcome is friction or rolling resistance due to the car being pulled down so hard to the metal. I wonder if the best way to test this might be the way they test to find the mass of something by eliminating the effect of gravity on it. They do it by using a pendulum that is turned parallel to the earth's surface. That way only mass effects are seen.
It would the perfect way to test this. Or you could use a double arm pendulum between two metal disks to take the side load off the pendulum bearing. I feel the ratio will be in the end about 1 to 500. No grease or grease seals should be in the bearings, just clean metal. A home made pen points bearing would work best.
Butch
Title: Test fixture for Pseudo Solid movement measurements
Post by: gammarayburst on September 08, 2013, 04:55:36 AM
See attached
Title: Re: Proof of Overunity From Magnets Fixture, No Negative Work Aspect, LaFonte
Post by: norman6538 on September 08, 2013, 12:40:48 PM
Butch that is a good testing idea but I'm not worried about the friction. I am worried about
the work done by the switching. In my test numbers for example. Lets say it takes 20 gram
inches to make it move 1 inch switching the magnetic field off or on times 2. That means we have to make at least 40 gram inches of work to have OU. It sounds like you have improvements that would make the switching far less than 40 gram inches. But in my
simple case it would be better to have 80 gram
inches of work done by the magnets switched on and off. This is the clear and simple challenge with you idea. The right test will demonstrate that.

I have made many embodiments of magnetic and gravity switching that worked perfectly but the switching did not supply sufficient work done to exceed the switching work required.
I have been there many times and got stuck at the "sticky point".
My only claim to fame is my pendulum that goes higher than its dropped point here.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4FzK2XKQ-74


I say it this way. "If we can use a small force to switch a larger force then we have OU".


Norman
Title: Re: Proof of Overunity From Magnets Fixture, No Negative Work Aspect, LaFonte
Post by: gammarayburst on September 08, 2013, 04:57:32 PM
Well that is what we are doing, using a very small amount of work to allow the magnets to do a very large amount of work.
It's self evident it works I feel.
Butch
Title: Re: Proof of Overunity From Magnets Fixture, No Negative Work Aspect, LaFonte
Post by: lumen on September 08, 2013, 06:54:37 PM
@Butch,
 
It looks like this concept might work to build a magnetic Stirling  engine.
 
It's probably not necessary to move the magnet all the way back to the start. After a few inches down the steel it should once again attract.
It could be cycled like a Stirling engine, the steel moves together in attraction with one magnet, then the other magnet slides close, then the steel and the sliding magnet move away in repel completing the cycle.
I've done some work on your design a while back with this concept and it does show promise. In fact, if you first let only the steel move, it will push itself partially off the magnet and increase the overall repelling effect by a large factor, then the magnet will pull themselves back onto the steel later on in the cycle.
 
 
Title: Re: Proof of Overunity From Magnets Fixture, No Negative Work Aspect, LaFonte
Post by: Floor on September 08, 2013, 08:43:57 PM
@GammaRayBurst

Nice concept !  I am a little bit familiar with the pseudo solid interactions. After I have spent some more time studying your new design.
I will then consider what, and if I can contribute some thing as you have requested.

Thanks for the good work

                                        floor
Title: Re: Proof of Overunity From Magnets Fixture, No Negative Work Aspect, LaFonte
Post by: tim123 on September 08, 2013, 09:07:57 PM
Hi Gamma / Butch :)
  I think this is an intriguing idea. I've tried to simplify the mechanism a bit. Do you think the attached diagram is ok?

There's only 1 magnet. When it's on one bar - they're attracted, when it's on both - they're repelled...

The slidey bit could use improving - would need to make it symetrical...

Regards
Tim
Title: Re: Proof of Overunity From Magnets Fixture, No Negative Work Aspect, LaFonte
Post by: norman6538 on September 08, 2013, 09:48:18 PM
Tim where do you get this idea from?


There's only 1 magnet. When it's on one bar - they're attracted, when it's on both - they're repelled...


I have never seen anything repel unless there are two magnets.
And there is no repel/push unless there first is a squeeze and that takes work/foot pounds.

Norman
Title: Re: Proof of Overunity From Magnets Fixture, No Negative Work Aspect, LaFonte
Post by: tim123 on September 08, 2013, 10:26:52 PM
Hi Norman :)
Apologies if I've got this wrong, but it seems to me that it's functionally the same thing...? The repulsion is between the iron bars - not the magnets as such... Does it matter if there are two small magnets or one big one?

If the magnets are just polarising the iron the same way - as seems to be shown in the pics - then surely that would be the same  using one magnet or many?
Title: Re: Proof of Overunity From Magnets Fixture, No Negative Work Aspect, LaFonte
Post by: elecar on September 08, 2013, 11:19:12 PM
Hi Tim. I do not think you would have the pseudo solid effect with a single magnet, from what I can figure it requires more than one magnet set in the same direction  - to -   and    + to +  A single magnet just wants to stick to the two bars in one set and moving that magnet as shown in your drawing would require much more work than that required in the original drawing.

Title: Re: Proof of Overunity From Magnets Fixture, No Negative Work Aspect, LaFonte
Post by: gammarayburst on September 09, 2013, 02:53:44 AM
Hi Gamma / Butch :)
  I think this is an intriguing idea. I've tried to simplify the mechanism a bit. Do you think the attached diagram is ok?

There's only 1 magnet. When it's on one bar - they're attracted, when it's on both - they're repelled...

The slidey bit could use improving - would need to make it symetrical...

Regards
Tim
Tim, that is one smart idea! Let me look at every aspect of it. There just might be something there.
Butch LaFonte
Title: Re: Proof of Overunity From Magnets Fixture, No Negative Work Aspect, LaFonte
Post by: gammarayburst on September 09, 2013, 03:03:15 AM
@GammaRayBurst

Nice concept !  I am a little bit familiar with the pseudo solid interactions. After I have spent some more time studying your new design.
I will then consider what, and if I can contribute some thing as you have requested.

Thanks for the good work

                                        floor
Floor, Thanks so much for your interest. Right now our biggest problem is the need for 3D animations so people can truly understand how it operates.
Testing of the work reqiured to move the magnet when it is in a truly "floating" state and not touching the side bars and the forces are equal but opposite on the magnet. I believe it can be moved with the push a feather when in that state. Thanks again, we need all the help we can get.
Good to have you with us.
Butch LaFonte

Title: Re: Proof of Overunity From Magnets Fixture, No Negative Work Aspect, LaFonte
Post by: gammarayburst on September 09, 2013, 03:09:28 AM
@Butch,
 
It looks like this concept might work to build a magnetic Stirling  engine.
 
It's probably not necessary to move the magnet all the way back to the start. After a few inches down the steel it should once again attract.
It could be cycled like a Stirling engine, the steel moves together in attraction with one magnet, then the other magnet slides close, then the steel and the sliding magnet move away in repel completing the cycle.
I've done some work on your design a while back with this concept and it does show promise. In fact, if you first let only the steel move, it will push itself partially off the magnet and increase the overall repelling effect by a large factor, then the magnet will pull themselves back onto the steel later on in the cycle.
Lumen, Any way you can get a sketch to me? I want to make sure we are on the same page. Also, I was never able to get the bars only to repel past half the magnet width. How about you?
Your idea could be a huge improvement, looking forward to seeing exactly how you have it laid out.
Butch

Title: Re: Proof of Overunity From Magnets Fixture, No Negative Work Aspect, LaFonte
Post by: tim123 on September 09, 2013, 03:57:07 PM
Hi Butch :)
  I've been looking at a few of your vids. I particularly like this rotary arrangement you designed:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i4O9BY5U_BI

I think it's a cracking idea - and it's similar to one of my projects. The general idea being to alternately magnetise / demagnetise bits of iron, and let the field do the work - in a direction perpendicular to the input power.
http://www.overunity.com/13692/core-rearrangement-fin-motor-open-tech-ou/msg368571/#msg368571

I think you can effectively 'float' magnets over steel in many configurations - most rotating machines do it.

I think you'll get a much stronger effect if the iron is between 2 magnets - ideally so the iron is completing (part of) a magnetic circuit.

I'm going to ponder and see what occurs...
Title: Re: Proof of Overunity From Magnets Fixture, No Negative Work Aspect, LaFonte
Post by: norman6538 on September 09, 2013, 09:02:48 PM
In this emulation http://home.planet.nl/~sintt000/ButchVideo.wmv
I can picture a weight off to the right connected with a string and dropping
down as the arms goes up. Then when the magnet gets back into the starting
place the attraction would then pull the weight back up as it pulls the arm back
down. And the big bugaboo of a magnet being weakest at  a distance could be
compensated by a variable lever pulley and arm that has its greatest leverage
at the weakest distance and least leverage at its closest distance where the magnetic
power is greatest. ie. arm up and weight down and arm down and weight up.

Norman
Title: Re: Proof of Overunity From Magnets Fixture, No Negative Work Aspect, LaFonte
Post by: lumen on September 09, 2013, 10:26:25 PM
Lumen, Any way you can get a sketch to me? I want to make sure we are on the same page. Also, I was never able to get the bars only to repel past half the magnet width. How about you?
Your idea could be a huge improvement, looking forward to seeing exactly how you have it laid out.
Butch

@Butch,
 
The only layout is in the modeler as a setup for testing. The test was to confirm that because a magnet can pull another magnet from a piece of iron, then could a magnet PUSH a magnet from the iron also. (or the iron from the magnet)
 
It seems with the correct ratio that the initial movement of the iron increases the repelling enough to push the iron further off the magnet and yet the increase again can still push the iron further.
The effect is probably useful in that moving the magnets back onto the iron could yield the forward gain required for total OU. That's what brought up the Stirling Engine because the over lapping cycles are very similar and would produce the movements required to build an engine based on the concept.
 
The entire concept was based on the exact concept you are showing again now.
 
 
Title: Re: Proof of Overunity From Magnets Fixture, No Negative Work Aspect, LaFonte
Post by: lumen on September 10, 2013, 05:51:29 PM
I think for now, it would be best to just stay with the current design and build a working model.
 
It could be build with one stationary magnet and the iron bars and one sliding magnet with it's moving bars using crankshaft design with the iron bars moving as pistons and the magnet on another crank, moving as a piston within the bars.
By gearing the cranks together, the timing could be adjusted to create the desired effect.
 
Before that design, I would draw a 3d model based on the exact design, and gather data.
 
Title: The Perfect Design, Pseudo Solid Rotary, All Testing, Every Aspect On Youtube
Post by: gammarayburst on September 10, 2013, 09:09:14 PM
The is the perfect layout, I will post video test links for youtube.
No drag as bar magnets move along in Pseudo Solid fashion.
This is it guys!
Butch LaFonte
Title: Drawing up attraction version tonight
Post by: gammarayburst on September 11, 2013, 02:10:42 AM
Drawing up attraction version tonight.
Butch
Title: Re: Proof of Overunity From Magnets Fixture, No Negative Work Aspect, LaFonte
Post by: norman6538 on September 11, 2013, 02:19:13 AM
I do not understand this drawing Butch. 1. it says rotary but I don't see an axle.
2. the left part makes sense but what is on the right?

Somehow this picture is not worth a thousand words to me.

Norman
Title: Re: Proof of Overunity From Magnets Fixture, No Negative Work Aspect, LaFonte
Post by: norman6538 on September 11, 2013, 02:02:11 PM
This emulation video looks so much like the flynn parallel path stuff  http://home.planet.nl/~sintt000/ButchVideo.wmv     (http://home.planet.nl/%7Esintt000/ButchVideo.wmv)

It uses 2 metal bars and two magnets and increases the flux at the near end of the magnets.
Now if Butch has really found a way to do the switching easily from less flux to more flux he
may have found the way to make the flynn stuff work.

Norman
Title: Best way to go with rotary Pseudo Solid technology
Post by: gammarayburst on September 11, 2013, 04:19:12 PM
See attached, stator bars are not curved due to the limits of my drawing program. This needs a 3D animation very bad if any one wants to help visualize this for the public. This was tested on video and is on youtube.
Thanks,
Butch LaFonte
Title: Video link of new layout
Post by: gammarayburst on September 11, 2013, 04:47:14 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iXlJWZWe1oc (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iXlJWZWe1oc)
Title: Is anyone available to do a 3D animation for pay?
Post by: gammarayburst on September 11, 2013, 06:54:45 PM
Is anyone available to do a 3D animation for pay?
Title: Re: Proof of Overunity From Magnets Fixture, No Negative Work Aspect, LaFonte
Post by: elecar on September 11, 2013, 09:17:04 PM
Hi Gamma, I can not do a 3d drawing, but would the effect be the same if only the outer ring of bars was movable ?


Title: Re: Proof of Overunity From Magnets Fixture, No Negative Work Aspect, LaFonte
Post by: gammarayburst on September 11, 2013, 10:38:53 PM
Hi Gamma, I can not do a 3d drawing, but would the effect be the same if only the outer ring of bars was movable ?
Yes it would but not as strong during the attraction phase to the up coming set of closed bars because the magnet is still over one of the un-open bars. If you could show the still closed inside bar open that would get the idea across to many. The problem is the stator in your drawing would need to be turned 90 degrees to do that. The bars would bind as they are now. I don't understand, every aspect of this is on video and works perfect but no one seems to care. It's so simple and self evident. I wonder sometimes? Thanks for the help!
Butch
Title: Re: Video link of new layout
Post by: LibreEnergia on September 12, 2013, 02:40:55 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iXlJWZWe1oc (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iXlJWZWe1oc)

You are just fooling yourself if you think this video represents any effect or concept that might be useful in a self running PMM.

Here is what actually happens.
1. You apply work (via your hand) to place the rotor in a position where it gains potential energy.
2. It sits in a small 'potential well' where a small amount of extra work (moving the block) causes a larger amount of work or movement in the rotor.
3. The rotor moves then stops, because it is attracted back to the block. No further movement is possible without extra energy input.

What you neglect to realise or show is that the sum of the forces x distances moved (including the initial potential given to the system given by hand exhibits anything other than a totally conservative result.  (Integral of force with respect to distance over a closed path is zero.)

This (or any other arrangement of permanent magnets) cannot be used to generate an excess of energy.
Title: Re: Video link of new layout
Post by: gammarayburst on September 12, 2013, 02:44:01 AM
You are just fooling yourself if you think this video represents any effect or concept that might be useful in a self running PMM.

Here is what actually happens.
1. You apply work (via your hand) to place the rotor in a position where it gains potential energy.
2. It sits in a small 'potential well' where a small amount of extra work (moving the block) causes a larger amount of work or movement in the rotor.
3. The rotor moves then stops, because it is attracted back to the block. No further movement is possible without extra energy input.

What you neglect to realise or show is that the sum of the forces x distances moved (including the initial potential given to the system given by hand exhibits anything other than a totally conservative result.  (Integral of force with respect to distance over a closed path is zero.)

This (or any other arrangement of permanent magnets) cannot be used to generate an excess of energy.
Your reply is incorrect.
Thanks,
Butch
Title: Re: Video link of new layout
Post by: LibreEnergia on September 12, 2013, 03:00:33 AM
Your reply is incorrect.
Thanks,
Butch

All I can say is you are going to continue to waste your time on this, until you finally come to realise that conventional wisdom about the nature of magnetism is sound.

The mathematics is incontrovertible. You will need to show how and why that math is wrong if this device to have any hope of working. Your videos do not show anything of value in that regard.
Title: Re: Video link of new layout
Post by: gammarayburst on September 12, 2013, 03:52:52 AM
All I can say is you are going to continue to waste your time on this, until you finally come to realise that conventional wisdom about the nature of magnetism is sound.

The mathematics is incontrovertible. You will need to show how and why that math is wrong if this device to have any hope of working. Your videos do not show anything of value in that regard.
Thanks for you input.
Butch
Title: New 3D animation Rotary Pseudo Solid
Post by: gammarayburst on September 14, 2013, 04:35:16 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AEi6GqHGiCA&feature=c4-overview&list=UUV6BqQ_hToPob2lfymlIYLg (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AEi6GqHGiCA&feature=c4-overview&list=UUV6BqQ_hToPob2lfymlIYLg)
Title: Re: Proof of Overunity From Magnets Fixture, No Negative Work Aspect, LaFonte
Post by: Floor on September 14, 2013, 10:34:59 PM
It looks like a good  2D animation  Her are my first ideas on a pseudo solid design.



                            CHEERS
                                  floor
Title: Re: Proof of Overunity From Magnets Fixture, No Negative Work Aspect, LaFonte
Post by: timechicken on September 15, 2013, 03:06:55 PM
I dont understand the stage where the second magnet is moved to the upper part, the arm that should go up, why would it start to repel the lower part as they are still one piece, everything is touching?
Title: Need help reducing 7 meg AVI 3D animation file to below 6 meg so I can post it.
Post by: gammarayburst on September 16, 2013, 05:05:30 PM
Any help would be very appreciated.
Thanks,
Butch LaFonte
Title: Re: Proof of Overunity From Magnets Fixture, No Negative Work Aspect, LaFonte
Post by: gammarayburst on September 16, 2013, 05:07:04 PM
It looks like a good  2D animation  Her are my first ideas on a pseudo solid design.



                            CHEERS
                                  floor
Floor, I am looking for an animation to send you. I have over a thousand to go through.
Butch

Title: Re: Proof of Overunity From Magnets Fixture, No Negative Work Aspect, LaFonte
Post by: elecar on September 16, 2013, 07:21:14 PM
Time Chicken, they are not "all one piece" they are individual pieces in contact with each other.

Title: Re: Proof of Overunity From Magnets Fixture, No Negative Work Aspect, LaFonte
Post by: timechicken on September 16, 2013, 09:35:23 PM
Time Chicken, they are not "all one piece" they are individual pieces in contact with each other.
Yeah, that's exactly what I meant, when they are in full contact, why would the upper and lower "arms" start to repel each other? If there was an air gap I would understand, but then you couldn't move the moving magnet to the upper arm of course.
Title: Re: Proof of Overunity From Magnets Fixture, No Negative Work Aspect, LaFonte
Post by: elecar on September 16, 2013, 11:24:40 PM
Time Chicken, if you attach 2 magnets to a bar (same polarity) you can attract another bar. If you then move one magnet (keeping the same polarity facing the other magnet) and bring it to the bars it will be repelled.

In the example you commented on in this thread the magnet is able to move easily because of the effect caused (pseudo solid). If you move the magnet from one bar to the other, the bars become magnetized in the same polarity causing them to repel, no air gap is required.

If you bring 2 magnets together  N to N  or S to S they will repel, even if you bring them into contact they will still want to repel.
Title: Re: Proof of Overunity From Magnets Fixture, No Negative Work Aspect, LaFonte
Post by: timechicken on September 17, 2013, 01:15:11 AM
Ah yes, thanks for clarifying that, don't know what I was thinking.

Has anyone constructed a working unit demonstrating this effect in full? I watched all the videos I found, but in every one of them work was done by hand and it's not intuitively clear to me how much there is that the eye doesn't see (like resistance to moving the magnet in each stage). I'm baffled by this as must be many others!
Title: Re: Proof of Overunity From Magnets Fixture, No Negative Work Aspect, LaFonte
Post by: elecar on September 17, 2013, 12:27:18 PM
Hi Time Chicken, Gamma would be the best person to reply. I am working on 2 projects of my own and the only experiment I tried was with two bars with magnets between. I also only had my hands and fingers to make a judgement, but it did "feel" much easier to move the magnets when in "pseudo solid" configuration. I would say many times easier (sorry for the lack of real measurement)

Maybe Gamma has tried some experiments and taken accurate measurements. I only had 2 bars to experiment with so I was unable to try sliding the magnet from one set of bars to another.

If you have a couple magnets and some steel bar you should have a go at the test as in the video, the difference in the reluctance of the magnets movement is quite startling.
I think the only way to get any definitive answers is with a build, I am not aware of anyone doing so ATM.
Title: Re: Proof of Overunity From Magnets Fixture, No Negative Work Aspect, LaFonte
Post by: gammarayburst on September 19, 2013, 11:49:35 PM
Ah yes, thanks for clarifying that, don't know what I was thinking.

Has anyone constructed a working unit demonstrating this effect in full? I watched all the videos I found, but in every one of them work was done by hand and it's not intuitively clear to me how much there is that the eye doesn't see (like resistance to moving the magnet in each stage). I'm baffled by this as must be many others!
I promise you that if the magnet is not touching the bars and has like a .003" air gap on each end then you can move it with a feather. I promise, promise, promise.
Title: Re: Proof of Overunity From Magnets Fixture, No Negative Work Aspect, LaFonte
Post by: norman6538 on September 20, 2013, 01:59:30 AM
I promise you that if the magnet is not touching the bars and has like a .003" air gap on each end then you can move it with a feather. I promise, promise, promise.

Butch, In a previous post
I didn't find it that easy when I made the measurements with a neo on a matchbox car so I assume you are exadgerating a bit because a feather doesn't even weigh an ounce. So the bottom line is in the measurements. If the measurements demonstrate this then the embodiment will soon follow. So if a small force can be used to release a larger force then
we have it except that the embodiment has to be reset to repeat the cycle again. That has been my frustration numerous times.


  Norman
Title: Re: Proof of Overunity From Magnets Fixture, No Negative Work Aspect, LaFonte
Post by: gammarayburst on September 20, 2013, 03:13:28 AM
Butch, In a previous post
I didn't find it that easy when I made the measurements with a neo on a matchbox car so I assume you are exadgerating a bit because a feather doesn't even weigh an ounce. So the bottom line is in the measurements. If the measurements demonstrate this then the embodiment will soon follow. So if a small force can be used to release a larger force then
we have it except that the embodiment has to be reset to repeat the cycle again. That has been my frustration numerous times.


  Norman
Your car had a large amount of rolling friction in the wheels and axles. It's this simple, eliminate eddy current drag, float the magnet with .005" air gap so the forces are equal but opposite on the magnet poles and there is nothing to cause drag. It will just float along like a balloon.
Title: Re: Proof of Overunity From Magnets Fixture, No Negative Work Aspect, LaFonte
Post by: norman6538 on September 20, 2013, 01:42:58 PM
Your car had a large amount of rolling friction in the wheels and axles. It's this simple, eliminate eddy current drag, float the magnet with .005" air gap so the forces are equal but opposite on the magnet poles and there is nothing to cause drag. It will just float along like a balloon.


Butch you could actually demonstrate OU if you could demonstrate and measure this concept.
I was not quite able to do that. Then your horse would be out in front of all of the other horses.

Norman
Title: Re: Proof of Overunity From Magnets Fixture, No Negative Work Aspect, LaFonte
Post by: gammarayburst on September 20, 2013, 04:40:18 PM

Butch you could actually demonstrate OU if you could demonstrate and measure this concept.
I was not quite able to do that. Then your horse would be out in front of all of the other horses.

Norman
Norman, Mark built all our test fixtures and he is no longer doing that. He is working on a project he took on for himself. I have no resource at this time for test fixtures. The ones we built in the past show that it works. It has to move with no drag because with eddy current drag eliminated and equal but opposite forces on the magnet poles and a very small air gap at each end (.003" to .005") the Pseudo Solid effect takes over and the magnet is just floating. It works, I have felt it with my own hands. I will draw a simple test fixture if someone should want to prove the effect.
Butch
Title: Re: Proof of Overunity From Magnets Fixture, No Negative Work Aspect, LaFonte
Post by: norman6538 on September 21, 2013, 01:46:27 PM
Butch you have demonstrated the principles of turning permanent magnets off and on and THAT IS GREAT but that is worth nothing unless they can do  net work beyond the switching work required. So now you need to prove that you have net work done. The easiest way to do that with no arguments is to for example using inch pounds instead of foot pounds

1. take 1 lb of weight on a string and have it move one of your principle embodiments to turn on a magnetic field (switching work used here) which in turn
2. moves another weight a distance that is greater than the 1lb weight moved. Or if the distance is less then the weight could be correspondingly more but greater than  1 inch pound of work used to switch the magnet on or off.

And that would be exciting
BUT then you need to be able to reverse that (ie reset) using the net gained work to make a
repeatable cycle. So if 1lb moves 1 inch and lifts 5 lbs 1/2  inch you have now have a net work
available of 1.5 inch lb. to do the reset of the 1lb mover.
 
Had I been able to do the above test everyone would have seen the video by now.

You have the embodiments, now do the simple tests and publish the results.
But you may not use a hand except to start the process because the hand is not measurable.

An example of the reset problem would be using a magnet on a matchbox car that is moved with a small weight which then knocks over a domino doing some lifting which knocks over a larger domino and so on but then how do you reset all of that to repeat the cycle without some outside power?

Norman
Title: Re: Proof of Overunity From Magnets Fixture, No Negative Work Aspect, LaFonte
Post by: tim123 on September 23, 2013, 08:21:20 PM
Hi Bruce :)
  I've been thinking about how to make use of your idea, and attached is a diagram of a piston motor that perhaps could work using the principle.

It's just a schematic...
 - Would probably not want iron below the piston?
 - Would need magnets on the other side too - so the flux flows through the iron (I think)
 - Would need a pendulum magnet on both sides (connected via a shaft)

Regards
Tim

PS - To be quite honest, I don't know if it would work better with magnets both sides or not... It may be worse... Opposing magnets each side maybe?

Bruce, have you tested these 3 arrangements against each other?
 - single magnets on one side
 - attracting magnets through the metal
 - repelling magnets " " "
Title: Re: Proof of Overunity From Magnets Fixture, No Negative Work Aspect, LaFonte
Post by: Low-Q on September 24, 2013, 02:08:10 PM
Hi Bruce :)
  I've been thinking about how to make use of your idea, and attached is a diagram of a piston motor that perhaps could work using the principle.

It's just a schematic...
 - Would probably not want iron below the piston?
 - Would need magnets on the other side too - so the flux flows through the iron (I think)
 - Would need a pendulum magnet on both sides (connected via a shaft)

Regards
Tim

PS - To be quite honest, I don't know if it would work better with magnets both sides or not... It may be worse... Opposing magnets each side maybe?

Bruce, have you tested these 3 arrangements against each other?
 - single magnets on one side
 - attracting magnets through the metal
 - repelling magnets " " "
The problem occours when the piston isn't there, leaving an air gap. The moving magnet will therfor resist the exit of the block in order to move into the air gap and pull the piston back in.


Vidar
Title: Re: Proof of Overunity From Magnets Fixture, No Negative Work Aspect, LaFonte
Post by: tim123 on September 24, 2013, 03:43:57 PM
The problem occours when the piston isn't there, leaving an air gap. The moving magnet will therfor resist the exit of the block in order to move into the air gap and pull the piston back in.

Vidar

Hi Vidar :)
  I think, according to my interpretation of Bruce's idea, that:
 - the piston should be drawn inwards when the moving magnet is over the block.
 - and should move outwards when the moving magnet is over the piston.
 - the piston throw must be short enough so it doesn't move past the moving magnet - so the magnet is always over steel.

It's just an idea though...

Regards
Tim
Title: Try this at home, it's works
Post by: gammarayburst on September 25, 2013, 01:17:03 AM
See attached
Title: Re: Proof of Overunity From Magnets Fixture, No Negative Work Aspect, LaFonte
Post by: norman6538 on September 25, 2013, 03:10:12 AM
Excellent drawing to show the concept but the validation will be in the measurements of the moved magnet and the work gained from the attraction. I used the undercarriage from a matchbox car for the moving magnet and measured the weight x distance to get the work required and compared that to the work done from the attraction......
If the work done from the attraction is greater than the work required to move the magnet
then you will be very famous Butch. But the next bugaboo is to reset the mechanism so the movement can be repeated...
I'll be very busy for a week and somewhat out of contact.
Good luck all.

Norman
Title: Re: Proof of Overunity From Magnets Fixture, No Negative Work Aspect, LaFonte
Post by: lumen on September 25, 2013, 05:49:31 AM
Yes, if everything works as shown, that could already be a gravity wheel.
Title: Re: Proof of Overunity From Magnets Fixture, No Negative Work Aspect, LaFonte
Post by: gammarayburst on September 25, 2013, 02:17:52 PM
Hi Bruce :)
  I've been thinking about how to make use of your idea, and attached is a diagram of a piston motor that perhaps could work using the principle.

It's just a schematic...
 - Would probably not want iron below the piston?
 - Would need magnets on the other side too - so the flux flows through the iron (I think)
 - Would need a pendulum magnet on both sides (connected via a shaft)

Regards
Tim

PS - To be quite honest, I don't know if it would work better with magnets both sides or not... It may be worse... Opposing magnets each side maybe?

Bruce, have you tested these 3 arrangements against each other?
 - single magnets on one side
 - attracting magnets through the metal
 - repelling magnets " " "
Tim, I need a better drawing with a couple of more views. I'm having trouble seeing exactly how it is configured. Thanks, Butch
Title: New additional way to configure Pseudo Solid principle
Post by: gammarayburst on September 26, 2013, 04:41:41 PM
Now put a magnet working in attraction on a rotor in the middle of this and it will follow the bulge.
Butch
See attached
Title: Re: Proof of Overunity From Magnets Fixture, No Negative Work Aspect, LaFonte
Post by: tim123 on September 26, 2013, 07:22:09 PM
Hi Butch, (soz abt the name confusion) more diagrams attached. Hopefully will clarify what I'm thinking...
 - psolid-3.gif - A side view of the above design.
 - psolid-4.gif - Front view. A diagram showing the pendulum & piston movement.

Notes:
 - I've only got the one central iron block, with opposing magnets either side. It's kinda the opposite of how you put the magnets between 2 blocks.
 - However, there could be an iron outer-casing to balance the forces on the moving magnets on the pendulum.
 - I used a pendulum just as an example. It would need to be a rotating disc in a real machine.
 - In a real machine you'd probably want to have 4 or more inward facing pistons, and a central crank, with the moving magnets on a rotating disc - attached to the crank.
 - The piston should never touch the block.
 - The piston should not go out so far that it exposes the pendulum magnet
 - Webby (in another thread) told me that opposing fields will bring the piston in with more force. I tested it, and it's true.
 - I *assume* that putting opposing fields through the piston will cause it to exit the block. It's a reasonably safe assumption I think.

Regards
Tim

PS: In your design above - I think the rotor magnets might prevent the blocks from returning to their original positions. As the rotor magnet will be closer - and presumably facing the block - it could probably overpower the other magnet...?

Title: Re: Proof of Overunity From Magnets Fixture, No Negative Work Aspect, LaFonte
Post by: tim123 on September 26, 2013, 07:41:39 PM
Another idea: Why not use attraction to bring the piston in even harder...

 - In this diagram - the pendulum has 2 sets of magnets.
 - When the 'S' magnets are over the piston - it's attracted into the block with more force than with no magnet...
 - When the 'N' magnets are over the piston - it's repelled from the block as before.
Title: Re: Proof of Overunity From Magnets Fixture, No Negative Work Aspect, LaFonte
Post by: tim123 on September 26, 2013, 08:10:14 PM
Here's a diagram showing how I imagine a real engine might be configured to use the effect...

It's an 8 cylinder engine. Central crank. Pistons & conrods...

The rotor isn't shown - just its magnets. The principle of operation is as I've described before.

I hope it's clear... :)
Title: I will post operational sequence tomorrow, very busy now
Post by: gammarayburst on October 06, 2013, 05:47:02 PM
See attached
Title: Re: New additional way to configure Pseudo Solid principle
Post by: LibreEnergia on October 07, 2013, 12:54:14 AM
Now put a magnet working in attraction on a rotor in the middle of this and it will follow the bulge.
Butch
See attached

I'm struggling to see how this configuration results in any net torque. All that will happen is that the rotor will move to the point of least potential and then stop. No on-going rotation is possible
Title: Re: Proof of Overunity From Magnets Fixture, No Negative Work Aspect, LaFonte
Post by: Floor on October 09, 2013, 08:15:29 PM
@GammaRayBurst

I have a question, that I am not sure if you know the answer to or not.

Please see the attached file "PsuSol3.JPEG" drawings and question.

                                              Cheers
                                                       floor
Title: Re: Proof of Overunity From Magnets Fixture, No Negative Work Aspect, LaFonte
Post by: gammarayburst on October 20, 2013, 02:53:55 AM
@GammaRayBurst

I have a question, that I am not sure if you know the answer to or not.

Please see the attached file "PsuSol3.JPEG" drawings and question.

                                              Cheers
                                                       floor
Floor, Yes I would think so. The magnets without the plates for sure would want to so I think they would want to with the plates attached.
Butch
Title: Ok, this should do it
Post by: gammarayburst on October 20, 2013, 02:57:33 AM
See attached
Title: Additional note for previous post
Post by: gammarayburst on October 20, 2013, 03:04:55 AM
Note that section A and B could be just two separate plate sets of any length and do not have to be divided into smaller sections as shown.
[size=78%]Thanks,[/size]
Butch LaFonte
Title: Up dated drawing
Post by: gammarayburst on October 20, 2013, 03:55:58 AM
See attached
Title: Second reply to Floor
Post by: gammarayburst on October 20, 2013, 04:04:19 AM
Floor, Yes I would think so. The magnets without the plates for sure would want to so I think they would want to with the plates attached.
Butch
Floor, I think the plate set would rotate if hinged in the middle but would stop when set went from repulsion to attraction mode. I am thinking that would vary with the geometry of the plate. I doubt it would do a total 180 degree flip.  Maybe more like 45 degrees?
Butch LaFonte
Title: Re: Proof of Overunity From Magnets Fixture, No Negative Work Aspect, LaFonte
Post by: Floor on October 20, 2013, 06:52:28 PM
@ GammaRayBurst

Floor, I think the plate set would rotate if hinged in the middle but would stop when set went from repulsion to attraction mode. I am thinking that would vary with the geometry of the plate. I doubt it would do a total 180 degree flip.  Maybe more like 45 degrees?
Butch LaFonte

MAGNETS would flip to 90 deg,  if hinged,  or if upon an axle.  I don't know if the two magnets and  plates in (SET B) would behave the same way....  But I think they would also rotate 90 deg. off.

Also I wonder if the magnets in (SET B) could be easily reversed (pseudo solid fashion) WHILE AT 90 DEG. TO (SETS A and C)?
Considering that they would  be under the influence of both (SETS A  and C) ? If so,  (SET B) could then rotate an additional 90 deg. and so on.

                  Thanks for your time/response
                         Keep up the good work
                                  Floor

                                           

Title: Re: Proof of Overunity From Magnets Fixture, No Negative Work Aspect, LaFonte
Post by: gammarayburst on October 20, 2013, 08:18:34 PM
@ GammaRayBurst

Floor, I think the plate set would rotate if hinged in the middle but would stop when set went from repulsion to attraction mode. I am thinking that would vary with the geometry of the plate. I doubt it would do a total 180 degree flip.  Maybe more like 45 degrees?
Butch LaFonte

MAGNETS would flip to 90 deg,  if hinged,  or if upon an axle.  I don't know if the two magnets and  plates in (SET B) would behave the same way....  But I think they would also rotate 90 deg. off.

Also I wonder if the magnets in (SET B) could be easily reversed (pseudo solid fashion) WHILE AT 90 DEG. TO (SETS A and C)?
Considering that they would  be under the influence of both (SETS A  and C) ? If so,  (SET B) could then rotate an additional 90 deg. and so on.

                  Thanks for your time/response
                         Keep up the good work
                                  Floor

                                           
Floor, I will do a test and see just exactly what will happen. It's a very interesting question you have come up with.
Butch
Title: Re: Proof of Overunity From Magnets Fixture, No Negative Work Aspect, LaFonte
Post by: Floor on October 21, 2013, 01:55:57 AM
@GammaRayBurst

Hey, thank you for the response.  Based upon your last set of drawings posted,  it looks to me like you've got it worked out.  I hope my ideas will not be a distraction from where yours are going.  This might be premature, but congratulations. 

I presume that the ends of the bar sets"A and B" IN YOUR LAST DRAWINGS, where they touch each other, will need to be very flat.  I have some ideas about this,  I will do some drawings and post them when I have time.

                                                         floor

                                               
Title: Re: Proof of Overunity From Magnets Fixture, No Negative Work Aspect, LaFonte
Post by: Floor on October 21, 2013, 05:28:03 PM
@GammaRayBurst

Please fin the attached Jpg file "pseudo solid lap joint"

                                  regards
                                       floor
Title: Floor, there may be something hidden in the question you asked!
Post by: gammarayburst on October 22, 2013, 06:05:09 PM
@GammaRayBurst

I have a question, that I am not sure if you know the answer to or not.

Please see the attached file "PsuSol3.JPEG" drawings and question.

                                              Cheers
                                                       floor
Floor, I made a big mistake when looking at your drawing the first time. I thought that all magnets were in repulsion. I can't believe I didn't look close enough to see that each plate set has two magnets in attraction to each other. This way I hate to say the flux will flow in a straight path between plate magnet sets and run parallel to the next plate set magnets and not offer much repulsion. But, I think I see a design coming out of this that would really open up " Pseudo Solid Principle " so the public will be able to grasp it. I will make a drawing and post.
Butch
Butch
Title: Re: Proof of Overunity From Magnets Fixture, No Negative Work Aspect, LaFonte
Post by: gammarayburst on October 22, 2013, 08:12:09 PM
@GammaRayBurst

Please fin the attached Jpg file "pseudo solid lap joint"

                                  regards
                                       floor
That is a very good idea floor, it just may be an improvement. Much appreciate your input and help with the Pseudo Solid principle.
Butch
Title: Re: Proof of Overunity From Magnets Fixture, No Negative Work Aspect, LaFonte
Post by: gammarayburst on December 19, 2013, 10:28:21 PM
See attached
Title: Re: Proof of Overunity From Magnets Fixture, No Negative Work Aspect, LaFonte
Post by: Floor on January 01, 2014, 08:01:28 PM
@Gammarayburst

Greetings

    Have you looked at ferro fluids as lubricants / magnetic field transfer mediums  (wikkipedia)


                     floor
Title: Re: Proof of Overunity From Magnets Fixture, No Negative Work Aspect, LaFonte
Post by: norman6538 on April 19, 2015, 11:52:19 PM
Butch and others I think there is some material of interest in this thread.

http://www.overunity.com/14876/permanent-magnet-ou-machine-working-today/new/#new

I have achieved OU of 170% and there is an annimation showing the basic
principle of my working device.

Norman
Title: Re: Proof of Overunity From Magnets Fixture, No Negative Work Aspect, LaFonte
Post by: Floor on April 21, 2015, 04:15:08 PM
@Norman6538

Thanks bud.

Were watching.

I'll have a few questions for you when I have time / get done
with some personal business.

                      best wishes
                                 floor
Title: Re: Proof of Overunity From Magnets Fixture, No Negative Work Aspect, LaFonte
Post by: Floor on April 21, 2015, 04:21:23 PM
@GammaRayBurst
@Norman6538

Hey
Spring time is coming, a time for renewal.
May be time for listening to some Allan Watts on line ?

                   Keep on keepen on
                     best wishes
                          floor