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### Author Topic: Proof of Overunity From Magnets Fixture, No Negative Work Aspect, LaFonte  (Read 48348 times)

#### norman6538

• Hero Member
• Posts: 543
##### Re: Proof of Overunity From Magnets Fixture, No Negative Work Aspect, LaFonte
« Reply #15 on: September 07, 2013, 02:18:10 PM »
I don't understand this Butch   - you said
" What is down right  magical is how the two magnets pull a second bar to them with huge force
but when you just simply  slide one magnet to that second bar the two bars jump to repelling each other."

Two magnets lying side beside each other with North up will repel each other but
if one is South up then they will attract each other. Is that part of what you mean?

Amazingly if the two magnets are twisted 90 degrees there is no attract or repel
and twisted 180 degrees and you have the opposite force but it takes work to twist
the magnets and I have measured that force to be about as much as the work you
can get from the twist. What we need simply is a small force applied that releases
a larger force and we at the overunity touchdown.

Norman

#### elecar

• Full Member
• Posts: 161
##### Re: Proof of Overunity From Magnets Fixture, No Negative Work Aspect, LaFonte
« Reply #16 on: September 07, 2013, 03:51:49 PM »
Hi Norman, watch this video   http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mhfqe2dyR3s

When the two magnets are between the two steel bars they can be manipulated easily.

Now if you place two steel bars the same above the two lower ones it is attracted to the steel bars below. If you then slide one of the magnets between the upper two bars they will then repel each other. If you drop that magnet back between the lower two bars the bars are Strongly attracted again.

#### gammarayburst

• Sr. Member
• Posts: 462
##### Re: Proof of Overunity From Magnets Fixture, No Negative Work Aspect, LaFonte
« Reply #17 on: September 07, 2013, 04:32:26 PM »
Tinman, that video was just to show the Pseudo Solid effect and has nothing to do with this design.

#### tinman

• Hero Member
• Posts: 5237
##### Re: Proof of Overunity From Magnets Fixture, No Negative Work Aspect, LaFonte
« Reply #18 on: September 07, 2013, 04:47:29 PM »
Tinman, that video was just to show the Pseudo Solid effect and has nothing to do with this design.
@ gammarayburst
Quote: That makes two positive power cycles, one attraction and one repulsion and no negative power cycle at all in the sequence.

Have you actualy built this device ,and tested your theroy?
I am thinking no,as you would have posted a video to show us by now.
There is one force you have missed,and this will become apparent when you build the device-as per the 3D rendering. This is the negative power(as you call it) that you think isnt there.
Can you spot where that will be?.

#### elecar

• Full Member
• Posts: 161
##### Re: Proof of Overunity From Magnets Fixture, No Negative Work Aspect, LaFonte
« Reply #19 on: September 07, 2013, 04:57:23 PM »
Hi Gamma.  Perhaps if you use more than 1 set of bars and magnets you can use the work produced to manipulate the movable magnet in each set.
Here is a crude set up to show how they could be moved. NOTE the disc would be turned by the work done on the attract stoke and is not shown on my simple drawing.

#### gammarayburst

• Sr. Member
• Posts: 462
##### Re: Proof of Overunity From Magnets Fixture, No Negative Work Aspect, LaFonte
« Reply #20 on: September 07, 2013, 05:15:31 PM »
@ gammarayburst
Quote: That makes two positive power cycles, one attraction and one repulsion and no negative power cycle at all in the sequence.

Have you actualy built this device ,and tested your theroy?
I am thinking no,as you would have posted a video to show us by now.
There is one force you have missed,and this will become apparent when you build the device-as per the 3D rendering. This is the negative power(as you call it) that you think isnt there.
Can you spot where that will be?.
Yes we have built every aspect of this except the V cut we added which is an improvement and put them on video. It works, just need to get an animation that is coming of the full sequence of operation. Then build a demo and video it. You seem to be on to something yourself, do you have a link so we can view it.
Butch

#### gammarayburst

• Sr. Member
• Posts: 462
##### Re: Proof of Overunity From Magnets Fixture, No Negative Work Aspect, LaFonte
« Reply #21 on: September 07, 2013, 05:20:40 PM »
Hi Gamma.  Perhaps if you use more than 1 set of bars and magnets you can use the work produced to manipulate the movable magnet in each set.
Here is a crude set up to show how they could be moved. NOTE the disc would be turned by the work done on the attract stoke and is not shown on my simple drawing.
Elecar, that is very creative! I knew people would start taking the basic principle and apply it to something practical. Great idea!
Butch

#### gammarayburst

• Sr. Member
• Posts: 462
##### Re: Proof of Overunity From Magnets Fixture, No Negative Work Aspect, LaFonte
« Reply #22 on: September 07, 2013, 05:28:05 PM »
I don't understand this Butch   - you said
" What is down right  magical is how the two magnets pull a second bar to them with huge force
but when you just simply  slide one magnet to that second bar the two bars jump to repelling each other."

Two magnets lying side beside each other with North up will repel each other but
if one is South up then they will attract each other. Is that part of what you mean?

Amazingly if the two magnets are twisted 90 degrees there is no attract or repel
and twisted 180 degrees and you have the opposite force but it takes work to twist
the magnets and I have measured that force to be about as much as the work you
can get from the twist. What we need simply is a small force applied that releases
a larger force and we at the overunity touchdown.

Norman
Norman, round up 4 square bars and put two magnets in one pair as shown in the drawing. Now let the empty second bar set be pulled to the set with the magnets in it. Now slide in Pseudo Solid fashion one magnet to the empty bar set and slide it above the remaining magnet that is in the lower bar set. Now notice the two bar sets repel each other. You never have to rotate the magnets at all. They stay both North poles side by side the entire time.
Butch

#### tinman

• Hero Member
• Posts: 5237
##### Re: Proof of Overunity From Magnets Fixture, No Negative Work Aspect, LaFonte
« Reply #23 on: September 07, 2013, 05:31:20 PM »
Yes we have built every aspect of this except the V cut we added which is an improvement and put them on video. It works, just need to get an animation that is coming of the full sequence of operation. Then build a demo and video it. You seem to be on to something yourself, do you have a link so we can view it.
Butch
I have something that works on a similar priciple,but differs from your setup.However,the actions are the same,as i expect the forces will be.
But for now,i will wait an see how your device work's.
The one thing i will say is-have you measured the force required to slide the moving magnet from the bottom steel bar,to the top steel bar?
Remember-every action has an equal and opposite reaction
If you have truely found a way to circumvent this law,then you have just rewriten history.

#### gammarayburst

• Sr. Member
• Posts: 462
##### Re: Proof of Overunity From Magnets Fixture, No Negative Work Aspect, LaFonte
« Reply #24 on: September 07, 2013, 06:07:56 PM »
If the forces on the magnet poles are equal but opposite and the magnet is in a "floating state" then you can blow on the magnet with your lung power and move the magnet. The trick is to get the forces perfectly equal but opposite. The machines would in production be built with CNC and be very precision.
Butch

#### norman6538

• Hero Member
• Posts: 543
##### Re: Proof of Overunity From Magnets Fixture, No Negative Work Aspect, LaFonte
« Reply #25 on: September 07, 2013, 06:46:19 PM »
Butch's suggested test works.
I just did it with 3 inches of bar. With ceramics the attraction goes away but there is no repel
and with my small button neos there is a slight repel.

I'm working on understanding that strangeness but maybe I really don't need to know.

But where I still have problems is with the measurement of the sliding force.
I have been fooled too many times by the feel in my hand when I actually
used weights to do the moving. And you have to use foot pounds to know the real
work done. weight times distance.

Butch suggested testing magnets with a gap/spacer on a fridge and mine all stay put
and do not slide down. I also used a moving arm and a magnet over metal and it wants to stay put and takes work to move it. The closer and stronger the more work it takes.

Norman

butch said.

Norman, round up 4 square bars and put two magnets in one pair as shown in the drawing. Now
let the empty second bar set be pulled to the set with the magnets in it. Now slide in
Pseudo Solid fashion one magnet to the empty bar set and slide it above the remaining
magnet that is in the lower bar set. Now notice the two bar sets repel each other. You
never have to rotate the magnets at all. They stay both North poles side by side the
entire time.

#### gammarayburst

• Sr. Member
• Posts: 462
##### Re: Proof of Overunity From Magnets Fixture, No Negative Work Aspect, LaFonte
« Reply #26 on: September 07, 2013, 08:02:26 PM »
Norman, Think of the frig magnet this way. You take a small toy car with hard wheels and drill a hole through the top and all the way through and out the bottom. Now place your magnet in the hole and secure it so that there is an air gap of 1/32" or 1/16" between the magnet surface and the frig door surface.
Now put the car on the frig front door with the front of the car facing to the ground and let it go. It will rocket to the bottom of the door. I promise.
Butch

#### norman6538

• Hero Member
• Posts: 543
##### Re: Proof of Overunity From Magnets Fixture, No Negative Work Aspect, LaFonte
« Reply #27 on: September 07, 2013, 10:58:41 PM »
Butch was right about the car with wheels. I took a matchbox car and removed the body
and drilled a 1/4 hole through the flat bottom and inserted a neo and stacked two larger ones on top for extra strength. Sitting on top of an electrical plate which is heavier than the matchbox car and magnets it will pick up the plate but tilted about 45 degrees it will roll right off the plate. If there is no magnet it will roll off with very little tilt. Thanks Butch for getting me through this. The gap between the neo and the elec plate is less than 1/8 inch.

Norman

#### gammarayburst

• Sr. Member
• Posts: 462
##### Re: Proof of Overunity From Magnets Fixture, No Negative Work Aspect, LaFonte
« Reply #28 on: September 07, 2013, 11:31:28 PM »
Great job Norman! The reason is does not roll off when the plate is at a few degrees is I feel because the pull of the magnet is putting a binding or high friction load on the wheel bearings and maybe a flat spot on the tires.
Want to see it really go at just a few degrees? Put the magnet in a bar of soap and wet the steel and soap.
You are probably getting a slight amount of eddy current drag also. That is eliminated  in the design through new materials science, coated powdered iron in pressed form for example.
Also I have attached drawing to help everyone.
Thanks Norman,
Butch

#### norman6538

• Hero Member
• Posts: 543
##### Re: Proof of Overunity From Magnets Fixture, No Negative Work Aspect, LaFonte
« Reply #29 on: September 08, 2013, 02:56:02 AM »
Testing past the feel. The car weighs 38 grams and with the neos it takes about
185 grams to lift it off the metal. With the magnets the car can be roll started/towed with 20 grams. Without the magnets on a wood surface the car  can be roll started/towed with 5 grams.
So we can see how much work it would take to switch the attraction on and off. The next measurement needs to be how much work can be done with the switching off and on.
Then we know if this is an OU devce for sure. I'll work at that but maybe someone will beat me to it. I have to think through the measurement setups and my brain works in spurts on and
off.

One real gotcha is at a distance we loose a lot of power.
And we pay for switching two times - once on and once off.
If we get over the gotchas then Butch has succeeded very well.

Norman