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Author Topic: 44 Times More Power Output than Input  (Read 29379 times)

Offline tinman

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Re: 44 Times More Power Output than Input
« Reply #30 on: September 07, 2013, 08:59:37 AM »
Mt question is-how do the magnets actualy rotate,if set up like the pic bellow??.

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Re: 44 Times More Power Output than Input
« Reply #30 on: September 07, 2013, 08:59:37 AM »

Offline MileHigh

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Re: 44 Times More Power Output than Input
« Reply #31 on: September 07, 2013, 09:07:49 AM »
Tinman:

The hollow cylinder magnets rotate because they are never perfectly symmetrical about the main axis with respect to the magnetic field they produce.  There is always an asymmetrical "lump" in the magnetic field and therefore that extra repulsion/attraction creates torque and gives you a motor.

MileHigh

Offline tinman

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Re: 44 Times More Power Output than Input
« Reply #32 on: September 07, 2013, 12:27:07 PM »
Tinman:

The hollow cylinder magnets rotate because they are never perfectly symmetrical about the main axis with respect to the magnetic field they produce.  There is always an asymmetrical "lump" in the magnetic field and therefore that extra repulsion/attraction creates torque and gives you a motor.

MileHigh
MH
While i agree in what you are saying,i cant see that slight ofset being enough to turn a small DC motor-not to mention that it is coupled via a belt. Then to place a 10 ohm load across that small motor that is being used as a generator,and still have it turn?.
The inconsistancy in the magnetic field surely wouldnt be enough to give that kind of torque output,also concidering the very small amount of P/in to the coil itself.
Something else must be happening here.
Looking at the setup,with the motors placed in close proximity to the pulsing coil,is it possable that the rotor coils them self,inside the small motors are also recieving some sort of transformer like power from the inductor?.
The other thing to concider is this-if it was the case,that it is only the inconsistant magnetic field around the PM that is causing rotation,why not just use diametrically magnetised magnet's?.

The inconsistant field on the PM's wouldnt cause rotation while the magnet is placed flat on the coil,as shown in other video's. Then there is the video,where the magnet is rotating while on the table next to the coil-not on the coil.
We must also rember that the coil is pulsed with a DC pulse,so a rise and fall of the same magnetic field.

The other thing is,that the magnets these day's are fairly good in quality. And as he is using NeFeB,one tends to think the field would be preaty even all round.

With the slight imperfections within the field of the PM's,and looking at the P/in-i see no way that that is what is giving the rotational torque.

P/in=
V-.27
A-.012.
Motor specs
High Speed Reversible DC Motor (9-18 V), 1 1/8” OD w/2
mm shaft (available at Radio Shack)
P/in measured with protec true RMS DMM.

Now,i dont know what you think,but that P/in would go no where near close to driving one of those motors alone-and yet he runs 5 of them.
Even without any P/out from the motor's,he has achieved the very near imposable just getting those 5 motors to rotate with such a small P/in to the coil.


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Re: 44 Times More Power Output than Input
« Reply #32 on: September 07, 2013, 12:27:07 PM »
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Offline MileHigh

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Re: 44 Times More Power Output than Input
« Reply #33 on: September 08, 2013, 08:43:56 AM »
Tinman:

I remember seeing cylindrical magnets on a wire in the clip just like your drawing so that's all I was discussing.  The motor business is another aspect that I saw but didn't bother investigating.  I don't have the desire and there is too much to dig into.  I have already discounted the clip and there is nothing there from what I could see.  Plus the nasty fact that combinations of coils, magnets, motors etc are a kind of "fool's gold" that you see over and over.

MileHigh

Offline ramset

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Re: 44 Times More Power Output than Input
« Reply #34 on: September 08, 2013, 12:27:50 PM »
Fools Gold Huh?
The nasty combinations that might lead to something wonderful......
Sort of like our Planet ,a piece of rock in a vast void of space hurdling through a sea of nothingness,and then a few nasty combinations come along and suddenly there is something from nothing.
 
I see this fellow Tinman as a man that lives in such a place as planet earth who can recognize there is much more here then might have passed accross the bench of MH over the years,and perhaps this Man Jeff Cook has seen a bit of that himself?
 
Perhaps a symphony just waiting for the musicians to play the right combination and make some beautiful music which the Earth has not yet seen?
 
I appreciate men Like Brad  and Jeff  and the curiosity which brings them to places where men Try to make our world a better place and perhaps learn something new along the way.
 
I also appreciate your efforts MH,sometimes I think they need a little more Breathing room.
thx
Chet
 
 

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Re: 44 Times More Power Output than Input
« Reply #34 on: September 08, 2013, 12:27:50 PM »
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Offline tinman

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Re: 44 Times More Power Output than Input
« Reply #35 on: September 08, 2013, 04:09:30 PM »
@MH
Yes,i know where you are comeing from-anothe PM EM machine claimed to be OU. Turns out the measurements taken where incorrect,and the inventor corrected them.
But the OU part is not what grab'd my interest,it was the fact that the axially magnetized magnets could actualy rotate at all,while conected to a motor via a belt.

The other thing was these torsion field's?. I had never heard of them,and niether had TK-do you know what they are ,without looking them up?.
Turns out they are very real,and now i know what they are-something learned already.

Torsion fields: WIKI
In physics, a field is an assignment of a quantity (vector, tensor, or spinor) to every point of the space containing it. The word torsion refers to any variable that describes rotation. Thus, torsion fields do exist. For example, an electromagnetic wave with circular polarization or the stress tensor of a solid body under torsion stress can be described as torsion fields, although such usage is rare.

Below is a pic of the coil,and how the magnet is placed-coil yellow section.
Also a close up pic of his actual setup,showing the belt around the motor and disc magnet.There is two O rings either side of the belt on the disc magnet.
Now i know the video you refer to isnt showing anything new,but this is different,when the magnets are fixed to a shaft,and driving small generators-wich had a 10 ohm load across them.

I think you would have a hard time comeing up with an explination for this one MH.
It may be a worthy challenge for you.


Offline tinu

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Re: 44 Times More Power Output than Input
« Reply #36 on: September 08, 2013, 04:11:39 PM »
Tinman:

The hollow cylinder magnets rotate because they are never perfectly symmetrical about the main axis with respect to the magnetic field they produce.  There is always an asymmetrical "lump" in the magnetic field and therefore that extra repulsion/attraction creates torque and gives you a motor.

MileHigh

 
Hi MH, Tinman,
 
Either that or because of eddy currents, much like an asynchronous motor.  It is well known that the magnetic field of a pulsed coil is a sum of two counter rotating magnetic fields; if the conducting rotor is placed on the axis of symmetry of such coil it won’t start rotating by itself but here the rotor is placed off the axis. I’m too lazy to do the math but maybe someone is willing to test if a non-magnetic squirrel cage (or a tin can for that matter) starts rotating if similarly placed above and off-centre of a coil.
 
Oh, almost forgot to mention that NeFeB magnets and their coatings are good conductors… Moreover, magnets are mounted using brass tubes and washers.
I suspect a ceramic magnet (i.e. one taken from an old speaker) won’t rotate.
 
Regarding the paper http://www.worldsci.org/pdf/abstracts/abstracts_6483.pdf , apart from the good words I have for it, there is at least one potential huge error not yet discussed in: “Having five magnets provided a calculated COP of 40 when multiplying the number of moving magnets by the generated power out of one generator when…” (page 90, bottom right).
Well, there are many systems including mechanical ones (i.e. car differential) where one could take power out either from one place or simultaneously from several places but the total available power is the same. Here, because of the intricate magnetic coupling, I strongly suspect the author made a simple but unfortunately wrong assumption.
 
Best regards,
Tinu

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Re: 44 Times More Power Output than Input
« Reply #36 on: September 08, 2013, 04:11:39 PM »
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Offline tinman

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Re: 44 Times More Power Output than Input
« Reply #37 on: September 08, 2013, 04:26:32 PM »
 
Hi MH, Tinman,
 
Either that or because of eddy currents, much like an asynchronous motor.  It is well known that the magnetic field of a pulsed coil is a sum of two counter rotating magnetic fields; if the conducting rotor is placed on the axis of symmetry of such coil it won’t start rotating by itself but here the rotor is placed off the axis. I’m too lazy to do the math but maybe someone is willing to test if a non-magnetic squirrel cage (or a tin can for that matter) starts rotating if similarly placed above and off-centre of a coil.
 
Oh, almost forgot to mention that NeFeB magnets and their coatings are good conductors… Moreover, magnets are mounted using brass tubes and washers.
I suspect a ceramic magnet (i.e. one taken from an old speaker) won’t rotate.
 
Regarding the paper http://www.worldsci.org/pdf/abstracts/abstracts_6483.pdf , apart from the good words I have for it, there is at least one potential huge error not yet discussed in: “Having five magnets provided a calculated COP of 40 when multiplying the number of moving magnets by the generated power out of one generator when…” (page 90, bottom right).
Well, there are many systems including mechanical ones (i.e. car differential) where one could take power out either from one place or simultaneously from several places but the total available power is the same. Here, because of the intricate magnetic coupling, I strongly suspect the author made a simple but unfortunately wrong assumption.
 
Best regards,
Tinu
Hi Tinu
There was a measurement error,and he has a second paper that explains that. It was in reguards to the DC input,and forgetting about the AC component.
In his first paper,you will see that the test went beyond 1 generator x 5. He has two hooked in series,and a cap on the output aswell. This is how he made his measurements x5. First 1 gen,then two,and the math was done from those measurement to get the total for 5. He also talked about the magnetic coupling between all 5 magnet,s ,and arranged them to dismiss that. Also with disc magnet,s having like or unlike poles facing one another-you will not gain any drive coupling from them that will effect the next one to it.

Offline TinselKoala

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Re: 44 Times More Power Output than Input
« Reply #38 on: September 08, 2013, 05:48:45 PM »
I am having a really really hard time believing that the apparatus as shown will actually turn the generators by spinning the magnets. I don't believe that there is enough torque. Sure, a magnet can spin when it's not trying to turn anything else... but those belts and pulleys, the O-ring edge things.... no. Unless I see that apparatus itself running on top of the big coil and spinning the magnets which are then spinning the generators, I just don't believe it.

Is the device in the photo a _mockup_ of something he wished would work?

I skimmed through the video and I can't tell from that. I just read the paper again, and it seems that he did use clipleads to measure and never actually soldered all the motors together with wires. But I still can't believe that the magnets can rotate those motors! I am thinking right now that it might be the case that the big coil's oscillating field might be rotating the _motors_ instead of the magnets.

Anyway, if there is a video of the apparatus in operation please let me know asap, because I just can't imagine how to get enough torque from the rotating magnet to overcome the _huge_ mechanical losses built into the system.

ETA: Oh, I didn't mean to say I'd never _heard_ of torsion fields, I just said I didn't know what they are. The WIKI definition isn't really what people like Gennady Shipov mean when they talk about torsion fields, I think. I don't believe in the kind of torsion fields that Shipov does, and I think that those are the only kinds of torsion fields that can (or rather can't) be responsible for things like this magnet spinner or Gennady's "reactionless" inertial drive systems.

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Re: 44 Times More Power Output than Input
« Reply #38 on: September 08, 2013, 05:48:45 PM »
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Offline tim123

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Re: 44 Times More Power Output than Input
« Reply #39 on: September 08, 2013, 05:49:00 PM »
Is this the same Jeff Cook? Selling a 'reactionless drive toy'...?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SLJDQwHnItA

Offline TinselKoala

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Re: 44 Times More Power Output than Input
« Reply #40 on: September 08, 2013, 05:52:59 PM »
I was wondering that too. Cook, Cox, Dean, those fellows have been around a long time in the inertial propulsion zone.

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Re: 44 Times More Power Output than Input
« Reply #40 on: September 08, 2013, 05:52:59 PM »
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Offline MileHigh

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Re: 44 Times More Power Output than Input
« Reply #41 on: September 08, 2013, 06:21:01 PM »
Quote
I am thinking right now that it might be the case that the big coil's oscillating field might be rotating the _motors_ instead of the magnets.

I agree.  The motors themselves also look like magnets with some asymmetry that get turned by the big pulsing coil right underneath.  The 10-ohm resistors complete the circuits for the motor coils and allow them to react to the changing magnetic field.  So some people (the experimenters?) got faked out by that.

There are no torsion fields at play here in an exotic sense, just conventional torque causing conventional motor action.  Although a turning rotor is a "solid body under torsion stress."

MileHigh

Offline Liberty

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Re: 44 Times More Power Output than Input
« Reply #42 on: September 08, 2013, 06:57:11 PM »
Is this the same Jeff Cook? Selling a 'reactionless drive toy'...?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SLJDQwHnItA

The display model simply allows a magnet to become magnetically locked in attraction on both sides of a ring magnet, then by the input of additional force to overcome the magnetic lock, forcing the magnet beyond the attraction lock, enters the repel field on the far side of the ring and moving magnet to launch away from the ring magnet with a repel force.  I don't see a potential for real gain in this magnetic configuration, because the attract force of the magnets must be overcome with a similar input of force.  It is like trying to get more force out by applying force to a repel field of a magnet, and expecting to get more out from the spring action of the repel field.  This repel action does not yield more usable output.


Liberty

Offline tinman

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Re: 44 Times More Power Output than Input
« Reply #43 on: September 08, 2013, 07:10:04 PM »
@TK
This is why i am going to build the device as specified in the paper,as i to cant see how the disc magnets can turn those motors. A test has already been carried out by a very gifted man on another forum,in reguards to the electromagnetic field of the coil being the sorce of power that is turning the small motors. Even at high power levels,and an open circuit on the motor(generator)only 30mV were achieved-and absolutly no rotation when the two leads were shorted.
Also we must concider that the small motors them self have two reasonably strong magnets right next to the rotor,wich would just about kill any field sent by the inductor powering the system.

Here is a paragraph from the test carried out at the NPA 19 conference
Quote: This was evident and presented at the NPA 19 conference and
is indisputable, showing that by increasing it beyond 60 Hz the power input was so
small that the magnets were unable to even rotate any longer; thus, it was decreasing
with frequency.

The best performance is reached with a frequency of between 45 and 50 Hz.
The device pictured above,is the actual test device-and it dose run as stated.
How-i dont know-yet.

Offline tim123

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Re: 44 Times More Power Output than Input
« Reply #44 on: September 08, 2013, 08:24:22 PM »
He's selling a reactionless-drive-toy - that you operate - while holding it down with your hand. Thus making it impossible to observe any such reactionless behaviour. It's a non-sequitur. I smell fish.

 

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