Author Topic: Tinman's Rotary Transformer (Read 74193 times)

tim123 · « **Reply #45 on:** September 05, 2013, 11:50:52 AM »

Quote from: tinman on September 05, 2013, 11:13:53 AM

@ Tim-Quote: and it'll be hard to make a motor which is significantly better than standard.

I think we would need to test an RT against a * non-modified motor of the exact same type * for a proper test.

When I say significant - I guess I mean 10%-15%... Maybe I'm just being too conservative. Maybe it'll be 50% better straight off...

One potential problem with the RT is that you can only fit so much copper on the stators. I think more would be better...

I'll have a look at, and think about the Wankel PMM...

PM Motor:
- yes the PMs magnetise the passing rotor segments.
- there would be cogging in a symetrical motor
- it would prob. be best built similar in design to an Ecklin-Brown generator.
- I'm trying to generalise the principle, by coming up with other designs that use it.
- If I can't think of any better ones, I'll (eventually) build this.

Tim

tinman · « **Reply #46 on:** September 05, 2013, 12:10:33 PM »

Ok,here is the first run of the new RT.
Oh,and how to take a resonably accurate P/out from a pulsed output.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0wIwa_kEhOY

tim123 · « **Reply #47 on:** September 05, 2013, 03:23:40 PM »

Rotary Transformer Test Results

I've run a series of tests on my vacuum-cleaner RT... It has a fan connected - so it has a physical load.

There's only a small range of speeds at which the effect is evident - at the lower range of the motor. This is probably due to the 10w LED I'm using as a load. A fast diode alone would be better.

Note, my diode bridge only seems to be giving half-wave output. So that applies to the results below. And I can't do the math for AC (yet) - to see it's relative efficiency TBH...

Test 1 - Rotary Transformer Configuration

To obtain a 43Hz Running Speed:

Plain DC - No Load on Stator:
- 13v
- 1.33a
- 17.3W

Plain DC - LED Load:
- 12.1v
- 1.26a
- 15.25W

Rectified AC - No Load:
- 23v (peak)

Rectified AC - LED Load:
- 22v (peak)

To obtain a 60Hz Running Speed:

Plain DC - No Load on Stator:
- 15.3v
- 1.40a
- 21.4W

Plain DC - LED Load on Stator:
- 14.9v
- 1.33a
- 19.8W

Rectified AC:
- load did cause a speed up, but only slight.

Test 2 - Standard Configuration

I returned the wiring to it's original state...

To obtain a 43Hz Running Speed, with Plain DC:
- 14.9v
- 0.57a
- 8.5W

To obtain a 60Hz Running Speed, with Plain DC:
- 19.8v
- 0.61a
- 12.1W

Conclusions

- The RT configuration, certainly for my motor, is less efficient than the standard config.
- The output from the 10w LED is perhaps 3-4 Watts, and doesn't make up the difference.
- I can't draw any conclusions from the use of rectified AC.
- The RT does demonstate a Positive Lenz-Effect...

Also, it's interesting to note that the motor runs much smoother in the standard configuration:
- the rotor is suspended by the constant stator fields.
- the brushes have fewer amps going through them.

tinman · « **Reply #48 on:** September 05, 2013, 04:40:16 PM »

@ Tim
Good testing there,and some great comparisons.
What we are realy looking at here,is the effect itself. Like we have both said,it could be designed to be far more efficient at using that effect. Even with the motor in standard series conection,we can get the same effect,in that we can draw power from the stator coil's without it effecting either the P/in or the torque of the motor.
So give it a try.place your LED across the stator coil one way,then the other. If i series connect mine,ofcourse the current draw go's down,due to the higher resistance value of the series conection.You also have an electromagnet in way of the stator core aswell,so rpm and torque will go up. I can still then draw power from the stator coil,while dropping the P/in.
The problem we have,is that the motor was designed to run in the series conection. Now what if the motor was designed to use the effect we have gotten?. More turns of wire on the rotor would drop the current draw,while maintaining the field strength.
You can also catch the inductive spikes on the input,and put that power to use aswell.

But the main goal was to see the effect,and work out how to use that in a motor designed for the effect to be maximised.
I guess you could say we are running a gasoline engine on diesel. Now by placing a large cap on my FWBR,the motor dose indeed speed up,and i get more output from the stator coil. But the P/in voltage also climbs from 22 volts,to 36 volt's,while dropping only .2 of an amp once the motor speeds up.
Tomorrow i will be setting my generator up on the motor,and doing some P/in P/out testing.
I will post the result,and also the video showing the test.

tim123 · « **Reply #49 on:** September 05, 2013, 05:06:32 PM »

Thanks TM

the testing has made me realise how beneficial a permanent-magnet stator field would be for the motor - as long as it doesn't affect the magnetic circuit of the stators.

The diagram below is for discussion purposes. The idea is to include a pair of PMs to provide a nice strong field for the rotor to turn in, but without connecting them to the stator's magnetic circuit. So the * change of flux * seen by the stators is unaffected by the PMs - whereas the rotor is very much affected by them.

Also - to maximise that change in flux seen by the stator, I think it would ideally cover just 3 rotor segments. Then it goes from NNS to NSS etc. The flux change is then 1/3 of the total, and it has one segment to pull, and one to push at all times with the positive-lenz effect...

PS - Other things that may help optimise the design:
- As you said - more turns on the rotor, or even a bigger rotor in general - with much more copper.
- Much bigger stator coils. More turns = more volts = more turning force!

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the bigger the stator coils, the stronger the effect will be...

It's possible that OU is just a matter of stator size... Because the lenz-force is positive - we should be able to take as much off it as we like, and it'll just help...

Huge stator coils will cause a huge force - by Faraday's law - detailed previously.

tim123 · « **Reply #50 on:** September 05, 2013, 06:32:15 PM »

Another pic to explain the Permanent Magnet idea I've been boring y'all with.

- It uses the same rotor / stator geometry I described previously.
- The magnets shown are only one of each pair - so the middle rotor segment can 'flip' from one polarity to the other.
- The rotor segments aren't shown in detail.
- 3 rotor segments must fit between each pair of magnets & their coil.
- The coil sees, (for example) NNS on the left, and NSS on the right...
- These flip to NSS and NNS as the rotor turns, and back etc...
- Every change in flux (that's harvested thru the diode) causes the coil to pulse a field which helps to turn the rotor.

I'm not sure it'll work at all:
- I don't think it would rotate if the coils were replaced with PMs, and the field was static. It looks like it should, but static magnets always seem to find a resting point, even if you can't imagine one.
- But, perhaps the pulsing of the coil would actually keep it all moving around...

Anyway, it's just an idea for people's entertainment...

gotoluc · « **Reply #51 on:** September 05, 2013, 06:37:18 PM »

Quote from: tim123 on September 05, 2013, 10:39:51 AM

Luc & Tinman,
guys. For the *third* time , the magnets are not attached to the rotor... The rotor segments pass over the magnets. The PM design is basically a self-running Ecklin-Brown type generator...

Tim

Sorry about that Tim, I thought the magnets were in the rotor because when TinMan wrote: "OK,about the PM's in the stator core. Im not sure why you would want PM's" ... you replied with the below

Quote from: tim123 on September 04, 2013, 03:43:03 PM

No mate, not in the stator... The rotor.

So I thought you were correcting him but I looked at your original post of your design suggestion of PM and realized I was mislead by your above reply to TinMan.

At this point I can't say I fully understand how your design suggestion with PM's would work, so please go on with your idea and in time I may get it.

Quote from: tim123 on September 05, 2013, 10:47:39 AM

Hi Luc,
how's the houseboat going?

It's going well thanks. I don't know if you're following the topic on it but if not here's the link to it: http://www.overunity.com/13496/building-a-solar-electric-houseboat/msg360011/#msg360011

Quote from: tim123 on September 05, 2013, 10:47:39 AM

I don't think that this is right:

I think the idea of 'stored flux' in this case is just confusing.

The relationships involved are defined by Faraday-Lenz's Law:
http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/electric/farlaw.html

VoltageGenerated = - NumberOfTurns x ChangeInFlux x CoreArea / Time

So the stator voltage and flux is generated in response to the change in flux caused by the rotor.

It all happens instantaneously (well, at the speed of light), so there's no storage...

Regards
Tim

I may not explain the effect with the correct terms as I have no formal education in all this stuff as I've been self teaching over the years as I experiment. So sorry about that.

Luc

tim123 · « **Reply #52 on:** September 05, 2013, 07:53:52 PM »

Attached is (hopefully) a clear description of how the Positive Lenz effect actually works in the Rotary Transformer. To the best of my understanding it's correct, and logical.

Hopefully this should help de-mystify what Tinman & I are spending our time on, and it should help people design their own devices based on the principle.

It is my understanding that the amount of power available from the stator is defined by the physical size of the stator coils, and the amount of flux change...

I think that the Positive-Lenz effect is a clear route to overunity...

tim123 · « **Reply #53 on:** September 05, 2013, 08:14:51 PM »

Quote from: gotoluc on September 05, 2013, 06:37:18 PM

Sorry about that Tim...

No problem mate. TBH, I re-read my posts and I could have been clearer. Not sure it''l work anyway (but it might)...

Quote

I may not explain the effect with the correct terms as I have no formal education in all this stuff as I've been self teaching over the years as I experiment.

It can be really diffficult choosing the right terms and analogies when researching, and we are covering some interesting, and as far as I'm aware, newly noticed phenomena. I hope that the image I did gets to the heart of what it is we're observing... And I hope nobody objects to the term 'Positive-Lenz'... I just felt we needed a name for it. Am open to suggestions...

Will check out the housboat thread. Nice one.

Tim

scratchrobot · « **Reply #54 on:** September 06, 2013, 03:00:14 AM »

Load on stator coils gives nice acceleration with diode

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K3MqnJw8zg0

gotoluc · « **Reply #55 on:** September 06, 2013, 04:24:32 AM »

Clean and simple video demo of the effect scratchrobot

Thanks for sharing

Luc

gotoluc · « **Reply #56 on:** September 06, 2013, 06:38:45 AM »

For your entertainment

Universal Motors at Obscene Voltage, Speed and Noise

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g96AVc5SMxY

tim123 · « **Reply #57 on:** September 06, 2013, 11:24:41 AM »

Hi Tinman,
FYI - I'm apparently getting blocked from going on your forum at http://iaec.forumco.com by my ISP... It's a little complicated - my router has half-failed, and I can only access interchat by this 'OpenFON' functionality it has, that's still working. OpenFON is a public wifi network - and uses 'Cleanfeed' filtering (I believe). It seems to be blocking all of forumco.com.

Hopefully should be getting a new router today that will fix the problem. Thought you might be interested to know forumco.com seems blocked by some networks in the UK though...

tinman · « **Reply #58 on:** September 06, 2013, 12:27:10 PM »

Hi Tim
Yes i am aware that some(very few)block forumco,and other site's. We have had a few members with the same problem,one most recently from ireland. The simple fix is,just call your isp and ask them to unblock the site-it has worked every time so far.

Anyway,another test done,with the stator coil conected in series with the rotor-as per norm. Seems we can still draw from the stator coil,without effecting the P/in-infact,once again dropping it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aqmp6FtlYBU

tinman · « **Reply #59 on:** September 06, 2013, 12:42:02 PM »

Some things i have noticed with the series conection,using rectified AC

1-the current draw is lower-ofcourse.
2-the output obtainable from the stator coil is a lot lower.
3-the RPM's are a lot lower
4-Odly(and im not sure why yet)the torque is lower,unlike i stated in the video???.

Same test using smooth DC,by adding large caps to the FWBR.

1-Power consumption go's way up-almost double.
2-Cannot draw enough power of the stator coil to run the same LED.
3-RPM slightly higher-maybe 200RPM.
4-Torque about the same-but just a rough guess.
5-motor sounds like it's doing some welding-its not happy at all.
This may be due to the change i made to the brushes-but unknow.

Now i believe it's time we had a load placed on the RT's output shaft,and begin some testing on P/in and P/out from the generator.
I will be using an 80 series fisher and pykle smart drive for the generator.

News:

User Menu

Author Topic: Tinman's Rotary Transformer (Read 74193 times)

tim123

Re: Tinman's Rotary Transformer

tinman

Re: Tinman's Rotary Transformer

tim123

Re: Tinman's Rotary Transformer

tinman

Re: Tinman's Rotary Transformer

tim123

Re: Tinman's Rotary Transformer

tim123

Re: Tinman's Rotary Transformer

gotoluc

Re: Tinman's Rotary Transformer

tim123

Re: Tinman's Rotary Transformer

tim123

Re: Tinman's Rotary Transformer

scratchrobot

Re: Tinman's Rotary Transformer

gotoluc

Re: Tinman's Rotary Transformer

gotoluc

Re: Tinman's Rotary Transformer

tim123

Re: Tinman's Rotary Transformer

tinman

Re: Tinman's Rotary Transformer

tinman

Re: Tinman's Rotary Transformer