Language: 
To browser these website, it's necessary to store cookies on your computer.
The cookies contain no personal information, they are required for program control.
  the storage of cookies while browsing this website, on Login and Register.

GDPR and DSGVO law

Storing Cookies (See : http://ec.europa.eu/ipg/basics/legal/cookies/index_en.htm ) help us to bring you our services at overunity.com . If you use this website and our services you declare yourself okay with using cookies .More Infos here:
https://overunity.com/5553/privacy-policy/
If you do not agree with storing cookies, please LEAVE this website now. From the 25th of May 2018, every existing user has to accept the GDPR agreement at first login. If a user is unwilling to accept the GDPR, he should email us and request to erase his account. Many thanks for your understanding.
Amazon Warehouse Deals ! Now even more Deep Discounts ! Check out these great prices on slightly used or just opened once only items.I always buy my gadgets via these great Warehouse deals ! Highly recommended ! Many thanks for supporting OverUnity.com this way.

User Menu

Tesla Paper

Free Energy Book

Get paid

Donations

Please Donate for the Forum.
Many thanks.
Regards, Stefan.(Admin)

A-Ads

Powerbox

Smartbox

3D Solar

3D Solar Panels

DC2DC converter

Micro JouleThief

FireMatch

FireMatch

CCKnife

CCKnife

CCTool

CCTool

Magpi Magazine

Magpi Magazine Free Rasberry Pi Magazine

Battery Recondition

Battery Recondition

Arduino

Ultracaps

YT Subscribe

Gravity Machines

Tesla-Ebook

Magnet Secrets

Lindemann Video

Navigation

Products

Products

WaterMotor kit

Statistics


  • *Total Posts: 517784
  • *Total Topics: 15435
  • *Online Today: 44
  • *Most Online: 103
(December 19, 2006, 11:27:19 PM)
  • *Users: 3
  • *Guests: 8
  • *Total: 11

Author Topic: Tinman's Rotary Transformer  (Read 54335 times)

Offline tim123

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 509
Re: Tinman's Rotary Transformer
« Reply #30 on: September 04, 2013, 10:01:59 AM »
... So Tinman please post a shematic to let me go inside your project  ...

Hi Woopy :)
  What do you need to know? Perhaps I can help?

Looks like you have a nice little motor for testing...

Regards
Tim

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Tinman's Rotary Transformer
« Reply #30 on: September 04, 2013, 10:01:59 AM »

Offline tinman

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5232
Re: Tinman's Rotary Transformer
« Reply #31 on: September 04, 2013, 03:17:26 PM »
OK,about the PM's in the stator core. Im not sure why you would want PM's ,insted of a self induced EM ,with wich we have controll over.One of the main ideas behind this machine, is to use it as a transformer,as well as a motor. PM's we cannot switch off,or collect any power from.Using EM's,we can create a strong repelling field,and that field only become's stronger,the more load we place on the output. This also increases the torque on the motor,while reducing the P/in.

Tim-If you think it would work,then give it a shot,and i will keep with the original design,so as others can see the effect.There is a small hickup coming,when we try to use the second stator coil,the same way we use the first-but we'll leave that until we get there. But looking at the stator coil core shape,it will become apparent what is happening,and why.

Now about the windings on the rotor. Although they are all joined like Tim said,the current will only power up two rotor segments at a time-like Mags said.This is because there is less resistance in these two segment's,and current follows the path of least resistance. So although they are all joined,only the two lowest resistance coils will use the current. These will be the two between the two stator coil core's-so the rotor field is pushed away from one stator core,and attracted to the other.

Oh and Tim- a big yes on the rotor being pushed away from the stator core's,not attracted too.
Also try the rectified AC or pulsed DC,as i sugested,and see the difference than that of DC current.

Now the rough schematic below shows the very simple diode and resistor conection.If the motor bogs down when the resistor is placed in series with the diode and coil,simply turn the diode around,so as you allow the current to flow in the opposite direction.Try one coil first,and then see what happens when you try and use both coil's ay once.

Offline tim123

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 509
Re: Tinman's Rotary Transformer
« Reply #32 on: September 04, 2013, 03:43:03 PM »
OK,about the PM's in the stator core. Im not sure why you would want PM's ,insted of a self induced EM...

No mate, not in the stator... The rotor. If you can polarise the rotor using PMs - then you don't have to provide the electricity...

If the principle that the RT demonstrates can work with PMs - then it's definitely OU - no question - no measurements needed. No power input.

Quote
There is a small hickup coming,when we try to use the second stator coil,the same way we use the first-but we'll leave that until we get there. But looking at the stator coil core shape,it will become apparent what is happening,and why.

I *had to* connect both stators in series to see the effect in my motor. I think it's because completing the magnetic circuit is necessary. I don't think including the other coil should be a problem, but I could be wrong... My motor isn't behaving quite like yours, and I don't know why yet.

Quote
Now about the windings on the rotor. Although they are all joined like Tim said,the current will only power up two rotor segments at a time-like Mags said.This is because there is less resistance in these two segment's,and current follows the path of least resistance. So although they are all joined,only the two lowest resistance coils will use the current. These will be the two between the two stator coil core's-so the rotor field is pushed away from one stator core,and attracted to the other.

There are only 2 brushes. They split the coil into two, so the current has to travel the full length of the wire...(?)

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Tinman's Rotary Transformer
« Reply #32 on: September 04, 2013, 03:43:03 PM »
Sponsored links:




Offline tim123

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 509
Re: Tinman's Rotary Transformer
« Reply #33 on: September 04, 2013, 04:08:30 PM »
Attached are some diagrams, hopefully explaining the PM idea a bit better.

I'm not trying to take us off topic here. The point of this is to explore the principle of operation of the RT, and see how else it can be applied, and optimised.

If I'm right, this should be a self-rotating generator...

Top Pic - 'Dimensions':
 - Shows the relative dimensions of the stator to rotor segments.
 - Rotor segments are separated by an equal size gap
 - 3 rotor segments must be in contact with the stator at any one time
 - so the stator must be 6 units wide

Middle: 'Operation'
 - Shows how the polarity of the rotor segs changes as they move past the stator
 - ...and how that looks to the stator
 - ...and that taking power off the stator will help turn the rotor.

Bottom: 'Side View'
 - Shows how these things are arranged.
 - Magnets below the rotor
 - Stator above the rotor
 - This is just a schematic, and it could be arranged radially or axially.

Offline gotoluc

  • elite_member
  • Hero Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 3096
Re: Tinman's Rotary Transformer
« Reply #34 on: September 04, 2013, 05:34:03 PM »
I agree with TinMan!...  I also fail to see how his design would work with permanent magnets.

Even if the magnets are on the rotor! 

The way I think TinMan's design works is it takes advantage of the off time of the rotor coil which would of induced a magnetic field in the stator core when on.
But once the rotor coil comes to a zero volt from the pulsed DC, the induced field in the stator will want to collapse and reverse which would cause a braking effect on the rotor. However, since TinMan has made as large of a coil he can fit on the stator, the stator magnetic field can be stored in that coil.
However, it will do nothing if the coil is open! ... but add a diode (in the right direction) on the stator coil and instead of the stator core field reversing when the rotor coil field comes to zero (from DC pulses) the diode will redirect the stored magnetic field in the stator coil to go in the same direction it was originally going and the result will be the rotor will continue on its way instead of it being stalled by the reversing collapsing field.

So maybe we can say there is No opposing Lenz if you want. It's just redirected and reused during the off time.

If this is TinMan's working principal, then permanent magnets on the rotor would not work as they can't be switched on and off.

I shared this concept (in a different way) 4 years ago. I called it "Effects of Recirculating BEMF to coil" where I demonstrated that a short pulse to a coil would push a magnet so far and if I added a diode (in the correct direction) the coil would need much less power to push the magnet the same distance.

Here's a video of the effect and advantage of recirculating a coils collapsing field: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7QUYkilgkzU

What I think TinMan is doing is using the same effect but using the stator flux stored in the stator coil and redirecting it which will have a benefit on the already set motion of the rotor. This is very smart of TimMan to do.
One can add a load (resistor) on the stator coil but for obvious reasons the best results will be with the lowest resistance or just a short.

Luc
« Last Edit: September 05, 2013, 03:45:11 AM by gotoluc »

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Tinman's Rotary Transformer
« Reply #34 on: September 04, 2013, 05:34:03 PM »
Sponsored links:




Offline PiCéd

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 172
Re: Tinman's Rotary Transformer
« Reply #35 on: September 04, 2013, 05:51:19 PM »
Hello gotoluc!

A diode and a capacitor in parallel to the input (or maybe output) circuit and connect to the two end of the solenoid, your video is old but had a very good suggestion and a very good idea, especially that of putting a diode.

Offline woopy

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 608
Re: Tinman's Rotary Transformer
« Reply #36 on: September 04, 2013, 10:44:34 PM »
Hi Woopy :)
  What do you need to know? Perhaps I can help?

Looks like you have a nice little motor for testing...

Regards
Tim

Thank's Tim

today i spent some time playing with my motor and diode and more.

And by doing this, I have read the Tin man's blog (i didn't know about before )  and also this thread, and i have a better clue now.

I can get the acceleration and much better torque by shorting the stator coils with diode (i used super fast diode UF 4007 )

I have tried to connect the 2 stators coils in serie and parallel  and also separated with 2 diodes everything works fine.

I have tried to understand if there is a attraction or repulsion motor. And it seems to me that there is a repulsion motor. And further more . the torque seems to appears when the slot ,between 2 commutator's  sections, is situated in the middle of the brushes.

Something interesting is that the motor, when connected to a DC power supply .  spins always the same direction independantly of connected the polarity. ??

Voila for my first entry in this experiment

good luck at all

Laurent

















































































Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Tinman's Rotary Transformer
« Reply #36 on: September 04, 2013, 10:44:34 PM »
Sponsored links:




Offline Magluvin

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5772
Re: Tinman's Rotary Transformer
« Reply #37 on: September 05, 2013, 01:57:03 AM »
Could you please indicate how the poles on the magnets are. Without that I'm not sure of how this works

Thanks

Luc

Hey Luc

In the pic I posted, the blue magnet is really a ring. The cutaway view is of round parts, where yours would be square with 4 sides.  The magnet is one pole inward toward the coil and the outer surface is the other pole, facing the outer core part. It is the same as what you have, only open ended.  You can try yours open ended by just replacing all the mags on one end of your device with non magnetic blocks, plastic, wood, etc.

Its not the fact that the 2 N poles at each end interact directly with the coil. The N of both mags is applied to the coil through and out of the outer core parts, and the center slider core 'is' the S pole in reference to the coil.

Here is an experiment you might enjoy.  If you have a home stereo amp, connect a speaker wire to the coil like it was a speaker. The way you use the straps to connect the scale, replace that with rubber bands, only use a rubber band for the other side also, so the the coil wants to rest at or near center of the slider. Now turn up the volume using some music with some bass. Something that will get that coil 'vibrating' back and forth.  You say the coil is around 100ohm. The stereo should handle that load fine. Being that it is 100ohm, you might have to pump up the volume a bit, not sure.  In the end, you will see that it is basically a speaker motor.

When I said above that the inner core 'is' one pole and the outer core 'is' the other pole in reference to the coil, I wasnt kidding. ;)    The coil is not working with or against poles that are at the ends of the device, it is working with(and or against) magnetic field that is concentrated through the coil windings from the inner core to the outer. So just about no matter where the coil is on the slider, you should be getting as much pull force as if it were anywhere else on the slider. There may be a bit thicker field closer to the magnets. In a speaker, the cone excursions are typically 1inch front to back, with some subwoofers(extreme) up to 3inch throw. So possibly the longer the device, the more that fields closer to the magnets, as you have them, will be stronger than in the middle.  Thats why the magnet in the pic I posted was used as it is, because the coil is always next to the actual magnet pole facing inward and the core redirects the other pole to the inner side of the coil. So the field lines you are working with are strung between the inner and outer core and the coil is bathed in it from the inside outward between inner and outer cores.


These motors are much different in their workings than what we think about how motors work. Once you catch on, it will make you think differently a bit.  But then again, Once you get it, you might think differently about what you thought about typical motors and find it is all the same and what you thought before was all wrong.  ;) And thats a good thing. ;D

Below is a cutaway view of a speaker and its motor. The cone suspension is the 'rubber bands' and the large ring magnets, grey, are say N up and S down, and the yellow core parts take the magnets fields and concentrate them on the coil. The N field is guided to the outside of the coil and the S is guided to the inner side of the coil.  Hope that helps. ;)

Mags

Offline Magluvin

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5772
Re: Tinman's Rotary Transformer
« Reply #38 on: September 05, 2013, 04:42:36 AM »
Hmm, I wonder if Tinmans motor could run another Tinman motor on the first ones stator output? Just a thought. Then a third off of the second? :o ;D

Mags

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Tinman's Rotary Transformer
« Reply #38 on: September 05, 2013, 04:42:36 AM »
3D Solar Panels

Offline tinman

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5232
Re: Tinman's Rotary Transformer
« Reply #39 on: September 05, 2013, 08:36:21 AM »
I agree with TinMan!...  I also fail to see how his design would work with permanent magnets.

Even if the magnets are on the rotor! 

The way I think TinMan's design works is it takes advantage of the off time of the rotor coil which would of induced a magnetic field in the stator core when on.
But once the rotor coil comes to a zero volt from the pulsed DC, the induced field in the stator will want to collapse and reverse which would cause a braking effect on the rotor. However, since TinMan has made as large of a coil he can fit on the stator, the stator magnetic field can be stored in that coil.
However, it will do nothing if the coil is open! ... but add a diode (in the right direction) on the stator coil and instead of the stator core field reversing when the rotor coil field comes to zero (from DC pulses) the diode will redirect the stored magnetic field in the stator coil to go in the same direction it was originally going and the result will be the rotor will continue on its way instead of it being stalled by the reversing collapsing field.

So maybe we can say there is No opposing Lenz if you want. It's just redirected and reused during the off time.

If this is TinMan's working principal, then permanent magnets on the rotor would not work as they can't be switched on and off.

I shared this concept (in a different way) 4 years ago. I called it "Effects of Recirculating BEMF to coil" where I demonstrated that a short pulse to a coil would push a magnet so far and if I added a diode (in the correct direction) the coil would need much less power to push the magnet the same distance.

Here's a video of the effect and advantage of recirculating a coils collapsing field: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7QUYkilgkzU

What I think TinMan is doing is using the same effect but using the stator flux stored in the stator coil and redirecting it which will have a benefit on the already set motion of the rotor. This is very smart of TimMan to do.
One can add a load (resistor) on the stator coil but for obvious reasons the best results will be with the lowest resistance or just a short.

Luc
Correct Luc
A PM on the rotor will only give you a PM generator-nothing more.Even by using the diode,you still have a PM generator that is only catching a half wave AC from the stator coil. You need to be able to switch the field off on the rotor-at the right time. Then the more load you place on the colapsing stator field,the stronger the EMF from that stator is. This is why the more load you place on the output,the more torque you get from the motor action of the RT.


Offline tim123

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 509
Re: Tinman's Rotary Transformer
« Reply #40 on: September 05, 2013, 10:25:13 AM »
Testing Full-Wave-Rectified AC...

Using my vacuum-cleaner motor, as previously shown...

I've done a basic test of pulsed AC. From a variac, through a diode bridge, into the brushes...

I can't accurately test motor speed, or input power ATM, so it was just a qualitative test.

In my motor - pulsed AC and plain DC work just the same. They both give the same *qualitative* results.

Note, I have to run the motor at half-speed or less to see the effect. It has to have some room for acceleration...

I have both stator coils connected in series.

Taking power off the stators - through an LED - causes drag in one direction, and causes a speed-up in the other. If I short them out, rotation speed stays the same - I guess they cancel out.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Tinman's Rotary Transformer
« Reply #40 on: September 05, 2013, 10:25:13 AM »
3D Solar Panels

Offline tim123

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 509
Re: Tinman's Rotary Transformer
« Reply #41 on: September 05, 2013, 10:26:49 AM »
Hi Woopy :)
  the motor is a 'Universal Motor' - it's designed to run on AC or DC - and always in the same direction.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_motor

The acceleration is what we're looking for. It proves that the Lenz-force / Back-EMF can work in your favour. Which is supposed to be impossible - according to mainstream engineering.

So you get the extra rotary force, plus you get the electrical output from the stator... :)

Regards
Tim

Offline tim123

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 509
Re: Tinman's Rotary Transformer
« Reply #42 on: September 05, 2013, 10:39:51 AM »
Luc & Tinman,
  guys. For the *third* time  :o, the magnets are not attached to the rotor... The rotor segments pass over the magnets. The PM design is basically a self-running Ecklin-Brown type generator...

If, after reading the posts, you don't understand it - I'm happy to answer questions.

If you don't think it'll work - I'm happy to listen.

If you don't think it's relevant, I'd suggest you're perhaps missing the point:

I think a *custom-made* RT could have a COP of up to 2, maybe more. But the RT as it stands - as a converted motor - will AT BEST demonstrate the effect. I.e. It's not going to power a house.

I think it'll be hard to prove OU with it, and it'll be hard to make a motor which is significantly better than standard. I think it's do-able, and worth doing, but it won't be easy, and it's not the ultimate goal...

I think the RT is EXCELLENT at demonstrating the effect.

I think that it is ENOUGH for the RT to demonstrate the effect. Just showing a mechanism by which Lenz can be 'overcome' is a HUGE ACHIEVEMENT.

Obviously, a converted uni-motor is not going to be the optimal configuration. The point of the research has to be to understand the cause-and-effect - so it can be engineered into a new device. One that will power a house!

:)
Tim

Offline tim123

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 509
Re: Tinman's Rotary Transformer
« Reply #43 on: September 05, 2013, 10:47:39 AM »
Hi Luc,
  how's the houseboat going? :)

I don't think that this is right:

Quote
But once the rotor coil comes to a zero volt from the pulsed DC, the induced field in the stator will want to collapse and reverse which would cause a braking effect on the rotor. However, since TinMan has made as large of a coil he can fit on the stator, the stator magnetic field can be stored in that coil.

...the diode will redirect the stored magnetic field in the stator coil to go in the same direction it was originally going

I think the idea of 'stored flux' in this case is just confusing.

The relationships involved are defined by Faraday-Lenz's Law:
http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/electric/farlaw.html

VoltageGenerated = - NumberOfTurns x ChangeInFlux x CoreArea / Time

So the stator voltage and flux is generated in response to the change in flux caused by the rotor.

It all happens instantaneously (well, at the speed of light), so there's no storage...

Regards
Tim

Offline tinman

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5232
Re: Tinman's Rotary Transformer
« Reply #44 on: September 05, 2013, 11:13:53 AM »
@ Tim-Quote: and it'll be hard to make a motor which is significantly better than standard.

Well we already done that. In my video's you can see the RT kicked the standard fan motor's ass.
And we never took into account the output power from the stator coil of the RT in those test.
That House fan in the test has a 5 start efficiency rateing,wich is suppose to be up near the best.
But the average guy can build a far more efficient motor in his shed,to do the same job,but better.

Now about those PM's .Im guessing they are there to magnetize each rotor segment as they pass,with having the correct timeing ofcourse. Problem is the field of PM's are rather large,so i dont believe that the magnetic field will just be removed from each rotor segment that easly.
But i have always said-if you want answers,there best answer'd by a working device.
As far as OU go's-well like i said,this is just an efficient motor at the moment,and shows no sign of OU.But i do believe that the answer lies with the PMM of some description. What if we impliment this effect in one of those wankel PMM's as pictured below?

 

OneLink