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Author Topic: Tinman's Rotary Transformer  (Read 54330 times)

Offline tim123

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Re: Tinman's Rotary Transformer
« Reply #15 on: September 03, 2013, 05:57:18 PM »
Hi Tinman,
  just seen the new vid. Nice and clear. Looking forward to the next... Not sure I understand the need for rewiring the stators though...

(Update: Rewatched the vid - I see your motor has 1/2 the windings on each side - that's why. Neither of mine have that arrangement - they're just single coils each side...)

Today's progress:
 - Drilled the rivets out of my motor. It was easy.
 - Took the motor apart. Easy.
 - Separated the 2 stator coils by snipping them in the middle, then feeding the extra ends out. Easy
 - Dropped the rotor. All too easy.
 - Bought some bolts
 - Re-assembled motor.
 - Discovered I had broken the rotor when I dropped it. :(

Before I dropped the rotor I measured the resistance between the segments. They were all the same! (2.2 Ohms) After the drop, the values were all different - so it must've shorted out inside.

I discovered that the rotor doesn't work the way I thought it did:
 - The rotor coils are not separate - they're all one big coil.
 - It doesn't pulse individual rotor coils, powering up & down
 - The brushes effectively separate the one big coil into 2 coils of opposite polarity.
 - So all the rotor copper has current flowing in it at all times.
 - It's a very clever design.
 - They're quite fragile. Don't drop 'em! (D'oh!)

I'm not going to be able to fix the rotor. So, I'll have a look inside the old vacuum cleaner later & see what I can find... The bearing are shot in my washing machine. I may scrap that...

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Re: Tinman's Rotary Transformer
« Reply #15 on: September 03, 2013, 05:57:18 PM »

Offline scratchrobot

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Re: Tinman's Rotary Transformer
« Reply #16 on: September 03, 2013, 07:04:09 PM »
Since i have an old washing machine motor i think i'm gonna try to follow along with this experiment, thanks Tinman and Tim for sharing this.
I don't see the point of unwinding my stator coils because i already have two coils as you can see in the picture i attached?
There is also a reed switch between the stator coils in my motor.

Regards

Offline tim123

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Re: Tinman's Rotary Transformer
« Reply #17 on: September 03, 2013, 07:07:54 PM »
Ok, I was annoyed with myself for messing up the last one. So I made an extra effort, and now I can report an initial experimental success. :)

The pic below shows the motor from a vacuum cleaner. The field coils & brushes were all connected in series, so I cut the wires, and fed the extra wire out as before. It's powered (just to the brushes now) with plain DC from a bench power supply.

The motor runs very nicely at 17v, 0.7a

I had to connect both stators in series to get any effect, but now if I take power off via some LEDs, the motor speeds up.

It is not quite the same as TM's because:
 - I can't get the stator to put any drag on the rotor (yet)
 - I had to use both field coils
 - The voltage goes up as the speed goes up (the power supply is keeping the amps constant)

But it's close, and a decent start. The washing machine better watch out... ;)


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Re: Tinman's Rotary Transformer
« Reply #17 on: September 03, 2013, 07:07:54 PM »
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Offline tim123

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Re: Tinman's Rotary Transformer
« Reply #18 on: September 03, 2013, 08:14:57 PM »
Now I've had one apart, and I get how the rotor works, I have to revise my principle of operation a bit...

The rotor is fully magnetised by the windings, not just individual segments. This is why there's only 2 large stators in the motor: they create one large field for the rotor to rotate in.

The image below shows the path of the rotor thru the stator.
 - The change of polarity, for each segment / winding is (I assume) in the middle of the stator.
 - In the standard motor the stator is powered by input DC to a constant polarity.
 - In the RT, the stator only powered by Lenz, so it pulses, but still to the same polarity...
 - The rotor is attracted to the center of the stator, at which point, it reverses polarity
 - The rotor segments leaving the stator are thus repelled by the stator.

The reason why the RT works is this:
 - As the change-over segment swaps polarity, the field coils see a loss of flux ('N' in the drawing)
 - The coils produce EMF - resulting in a magnetic field of the *same* polarity.
 - So the coils act as if they were powered - for free.

:)
Tim

PS. I think this means it should be possible to use permanent magnets to power the rotor (indirectly, will work on a pic). Which would mean proper OU...

Offline tim123

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Re: Tinman's Rotary Transformer
« Reply #19 on: September 03, 2013, 08:53:00 PM »
Here's an idea... Using the same principle, but with PMs to polarise the rotor segments...

 - The stator & PM are all fixed.
 - The rotor is just magnetic steel segments
 - The rotor segments extend the field of the PM they are over
 - When the segment crosses the center-line / change-over point it loses/changes it's polarity, just like in the powered version.
 - The coil / stator reacts just the same - with a pulsing field.
 - So the stator attracts & repels the rotor segments - as if it was powered.

What do you think? :)

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Re: Tinman's Rotary Transformer
« Reply #19 on: September 03, 2013, 08:53:00 PM »
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Offline woopy

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Re: Tinman's Rotary Transformer
« Reply #20 on: September 04, 2013, 12:57:23 AM »
Hi Tim And TinMan

thank's for sharing

OK i have found a suitable motor for beginning the experiment

1- The motor spins under 240 volts as normal (it is a domestic "hacheur " for vegetables .

2- it spins under 36 volts DC on the brushes only (without any connection to the stator coils )

3- it spins with 36 volts DC connected directly to the brushes and stator coils as a normal AC connection ??

4-it spins when i connect the motor to my variac and from very low up to full 230  voltage.

5- it spins when i connect the motor to my variac but through a full wave bridge rectifier. (without smoothing cap)

So Tinman please post a shematic to let me go inside your project

Of course if you wish

Thank's

Laurent

Offline Magluvin

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Re: Tinman's Rotary Transformer
« Reply #21 on: September 04, 2013, 02:41:01 AM »
Here's an idea... Using the same principle, but with PMs to polarise the rotor segments...

 - The stator & PM are all fixed.
 - The rotor is just magnetic steel segments
 - The rotor segments extend the field of the PM they are over
 - When the segment crosses the center-line / change-over point it loses/changes it's polarity, just like in the powered version.
 - The coil / stator reacts just the same - with a pulsing field.
 - So the stator attracts & repels the rotor segments - as if it was powered.

What do you think? :)

From what I understood about this, the armature is a carrier of the pulsed dc from 1 stator to the other, by which when the output stator was loaded, the motor ran better than if the stator was open. If the rotor is just PMs, the pulses from the stator are not going to get to the output stator. The output stator will only get induced by the rotor magnets moving like a normal gen. In that case, loading the output stator would slow the motor down, except under special conditions.

Also, if you were to 'look' at the magnetic poles of the wired rotor while running, they will not rotate around the rotor, at least not all the way. This is what the commutator and brushes accomplish is maintaining particular magnetic poles in particular positions on the rotor in reference to the stators polls, to maintain a constant torque to the rotor. So mags on the rotor wont work. Unless you redesign the motor to do so. ;D

Mags

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Re: Tinman's Rotary Transformer
« Reply #21 on: September 04, 2013, 02:41:01 AM »
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Offline gotoluc

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Re: Tinman's Rotary Transformer
« Reply #22 on: September 04, 2013, 03:12:48 AM »
Magnets on the rotor wont work. Unless you redesign the motor to do so. ;D

Mags

Hi mags and all,

Some months ago, when I first saw TinMan's rotary transformer I joined his site and posted on the topic that when I have time I would like to work with him to see if we could use his effect on my Mostly Magnet Motor design.

You maybe familiar with my design and I know Tim is.  Do you think TinMan's effect could be used to improve on my motor design?

Anyone can share their thoughts

Thanks

Luc

Offline Magluvin

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Re: Tinman's Rotary Transformer
« Reply #23 on: September 04, 2013, 04:01:00 AM »
Hi mags and all,

Some months ago, when I first saw TinMan's rotary transformer I joined his site and posted on the topic that when I have time I would like to work with him to see if we could use his effect on my Mostly Magnet Motor design.

You maybe familiar with my design and I know Tim is.  Do you think TinMan's effect could be used to improve on my motor design?

Anyone can share their thoughts

Thanks

Luc

Hey Luc

Maybe try replacing the magnet with a coil. Coil vs Coil.   By being able to turn off the magnets can be advantageous, especially if having to try and release pm magnetic pull after a magnetic event with cores and such.

What might be interesting is to have a coil on a pole of a magnet and see how much the other pole flexes due to influence of the coil.  Im sure it does, but maybe more restrained than a normal core.


Mags

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Re: Tinman's Rotary Transformer
« Reply #23 on: September 04, 2013, 04:01:00 AM »
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Offline gotoluc

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Re: Tinman's Rotary Transformer
« Reply #24 on: September 04, 2013, 04:38:41 AM »
Hey Luc

Maybe try replacing the magnet with a coil. Coil vs Coil.   By being able to turn off the magnets can be advantageous, especially if having to try and release pm magnetic pull after a magnetic event with cores and such.

What might be interesting is to have a coil on a pole of a magnet and see how much the other pole flexes due to influence of the coil.  Im sure it does, but maybe more restrained than a normal core.


Mags

Hi Mags,

thanks for the reply.

From what you have written I feel you may not understand my motor design or have forgotten how it works!  as there is NO " release pm magnetic pull after a magnetic event with cores and such"

Here is the most up to date video. Have a look and let me know what you think.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-eTQ49RcFKM

Thanks

Luc

Offline Magluvin

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Re: Tinman's Rotary Transformer
« Reply #25 on: September 04, 2013, 06:05:39 AM »
Hi Mags,

thanks for the reply.

From what you have written I feel you may not understand my motor design or have forgotten how it works!  as there is NO " release pm magnetic pull after a magnetic event with cores and such"

Here is the most up to date video. Have a look and let me know what you think.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-eTQ49RcFKM

Thanks

Luc

Just watched it. I remember seeing it. ;) Remember I commented that it us similar to a loud speaker motor. They call the coil mag configuration a motor. ;D   Pic below


Kind of the way I see things, the shorter path for a magnetic loop, the stronger the  field is. Without any cores, using a piece of plastic for the slider and putting the magnets at the ends would give the worst results. Once you add the center slider iron, of course the N pole fields will be attracted to it. With both mags in place, those 2 N poles now make that slider iron thee N pole. The field is spread out from each to the middle, and N field is available outward all over the 4 sides of the slider iron. But the S fields are free to go outward into space and loop back to the slider from all angles.

With just the 2 mags on top of the slider and 1 core piece on top, we have a similar situation and a lot of the S field is 'guided' closer to its destination, the N slider. So now the fields from S to N are shorter path and stronger.  The S outer core also attracts the N fields from the other 3 sides of the N slider to just the one side mostly. So you have a high concentration between the bars. As you add more mags and bars, you are encasing the coil winding in a strong mag field on all sides, like a voice coil of a speaker.  If you glued a hook to the center of a cone of a speaker and applied 1w, you may be surprised how many grams of pull you get. And the larger the speaker, you should get more pull with the 1w in.  About 2v for a 4 ohm speaker.

It brings back a thought on the guy on YT that added more magnets to the outer casing of a small electric dc motor and it was faster. Most skeptics argued that it increased the speed, but not the power out. :o But you device sort of proves them wrong I would say. ;) More, stronger magnets makes for a stronger motor output for the same amount of input.

I tried adding neos to the outside if a toy motor and it ran faster. I have a few motors around to try and test the input vs speed/torque changes.

But according to what you show, the input should not change, right? ;) I dont see why there would be much difference


About the outer core pieces, have you tried thicker ones and output was less?


Mags

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Re: Tinman's Rotary Transformer
« Reply #25 on: September 04, 2013, 06:05:39 AM »
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Offline Magluvin

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Re: Tinman's Rotary Transformer
« Reply #26 on: September 04, 2013, 06:07:06 AM »
Forgot the pic for the last post ::) ;D


Mags

Offline gotoluc

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Re: Tinman's Rotary Transformer
« Reply #27 on: September 04, 2013, 08:17:54 AM »
Just watched it. I remember seeing it. ;) Remember I commented that it us similar to a loud speaker motor. They call the coil mag configuration a motor. ;D   Pic below


Kind of the way I see things, the shorter path for a magnetic loop, the stronger the  field is. Without any cores, using a piece of plastic for the slider and putting the magnets at the ends would give the worst results. Once you add the center slider iron, of course the N pole fields will be attracted to it. With both mags in place, those 2 N poles now make that slider iron thee N pole. The field is spread out from each to the middle, and N field is available outward all over the 4 sides of the slider iron. But the S fields are free to go outward into space and loop back to the slider from all angles.

With just the 2 mags on top of the slider and 1 core piece on top, we have a similar situation and a lot of the S field is 'guided' closer to its destination, the N slider. So now the fields from S to N are shorter path and stronger.  The S outer core also attracts the N fields from the other 3 sides of the N slider to just the one side mostly. So you have a high concentration between the bars. As you add more mags and bars, you are encasing the coil winding in a strong mag field on all sides, like a voice coil of a speaker.  If you glued a hook to the center of a cone of a speaker and applied 1w, you may be surprised how many grams of pull you get. And the larger the speaker, you should get more pull with the 1w in.  About 2v for a 4 ohm speaker.

It brings back a thought on the guy on YT that added more magnets to the outer casing of a small electric dc motor and it was faster. Most skeptics argued that it increased the speed, but not the power out. :o But you device sort of proves them wrong I would say. ;) More, stronger magnets makes for a stronger motor output for the same amount of input.

I tried adding neos to the outside if a toy motor and it ran faster. I have a few motors around to try and test the input vs speed/torque changes.

But according to what you show, the input should not change, right? ;) I dont see why there would be much difference


About the outer core pieces, have you tried thicker ones and output was less?


Mags

Hi Mags

I'll explain how my design works.

A current through a coil of wire will produce a North pole on one end and a South pole on the other end.
Slide a steel core in the center of that coil and the coils magnetic flux will now flow through the steel creating the same poles.
If you add magnets on each end of the core, with each the same pole (lets say North). With a core that's longer then the coil, the North end of the coil will repel the North end of the core permanent magnet and the South end of the coil will be attracted to the opposite North end of the core permanent magnet which causes the coil to move from one end of the core to the other. Flip the polarity of the current in the coil and the coil will travel the other opposite direction.
When you think of it, both ends of the coil are being used to do work, which is good.
However, what many fail to see or are unaware of is, half way through a coils inner and outer thickness (winding layers) there is a blotch wall. So from the inside where the coil is North, a South pole will start from the coils half way thickness and peak on the most outer surface of the coil.
This is why when I add the outside core on the opposite poles of the permanent magnets now the outside opposite coil field is doing the same work as the inner part of the coil. This is also why the scales grams pull force exactly doubles when I add the first outside core.

So if you understand the above my design is actually using 4 sides of a coil flux and converting it to mechanical power. Also, my design has zero core to magnet sticking or cogging.  Actually, the stronger the magnets are, the stronger the mechanical output is and I have demonstrated this well.
I don't believe this is the case for standard PM motors as stronger magnets will not give you a boost in mechanical power.

Hope my explanation is clear enough

Now, if we can get my design to use TinMan's effect, I think we may have something good. That's what I'm interested in knowing.

Luc

Offline gotoluc

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Re: Tinman's Rotary Transformer
« Reply #28 on: September 04, 2013, 08:22:16 AM »
Forgot the pic for the last post ::) ;D


Mags

Could you please indicate how the poles on the magnets are. Without that I'm not sure of how this works

Thanks

Luc

Offline tim123

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Re: Tinman's Rotary Transformer
« Reply #29 on: September 04, 2013, 09:58:49 AM »
From what I understood about this, the armature is a carrier of the pulsed dc from 1 stator to the other...

Hi Mags :)
  The armature (rotor) and stators are not electrically connected in the RT. It would make no difference to the stator if the field was from a PM, or an EM.

Quote
Also, if you were to 'look' at the magnetic poles of the wired rotor while running, they will not rotate around the rotor, at least not all the way.

Not sure what you mean. The induced field in the rotor does rotate around the whole rotor - as it rotates, and the brushes move from one segment to the next. It doesn't move smoothly - it steps from one brush to the next - but it does rotate all the way around...

Quote
So mags on the rotor wont work.

Yes, that's why I said they had to be fixed to the casing.

Tim
« Last Edit: September 04, 2013, 03:20:24 PM by tim123 »

 

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