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Author Topic: Tinman's Rotary Transformer  (Read 54333 times)

Offline tim123

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Tinman's Rotary Transformer
« on: September 02, 2013, 09:23:33 AM »
Hi Folks,
  I'm starting a new thread for this device because I think it does the 'impossible' - and uses the Lenz-force to aid the rotation - just like Tinman says.

The videos:

 Part 1 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yC4rCChVK8Y

 Part 2 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZZixHuoVHxc

 Torque Test - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x6xRcSkPYn4

 RT Vs Motor Pt1 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rVmVtRqwaRc

 RT Vs Motor Pt2 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=szpJ97M58G4

 Riding the Waves - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X163_IilwHk


Brief Description:

 - The device is a modified 'Universal Motor' - i.e. a brushed motor that works with DC or AC

 - The stator coils are disconnected from the input power. (They're usually connected to the brushes in series)

 - DC or Rectified AC Power is provided in the usual way to the brushes. The motor turns by the attraction of the magnetised rotor to the iron stator.

 - Power is taken off the stator coils, but only in the 'right' direction - via a diode.

 - Increased load on the stators causes the motor to increase it's torque, it speeds up, and less input power is required.


Principle of Operation:

Here's how I think it works:

 - The rotor segment is magnetised just before it enters the stator.
   It's attracted to the iron core of the stator.
   No power is taken off the stator at this point.

 - The rotor segment enters the stator, providing torque...

 - The rotor is depowered as it moves past the brushes, and the next rotor segment is powered up.

 - The stator coil sees the 'loss' of flux, as the rotor segment in contact with it is depowered, so Lenz's law says it will attempt to reinforce that field.
   Now the power is taken off the stator coils...

 - The stator produces a field of the *same polarity* as the rotor (was), in reaction to the loss of flux.
   So the stator then actively attracts the next rotor segment - for 'free'...



So the Lenz's Law / Back-EMF is acting in the same direction as the rotor. It's genius. :)

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Tinman's Rotary Transformer
« on: September 02, 2013, 09:23:33 AM »

Offline tinman

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Re: Tinman's Rotary Transformer
« Reply #1 on: September 02, 2013, 02:24:49 PM »
Hi Folks,
  I'm starting a new thread for this device because I think it does the 'impossible' - and uses the Lenz-force to aid the rotation - just like Tinman says.

The videos:

 Part 1 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yC4rCChVK8Y

 Part 2 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZZixHuoVHxc

 Torque Test - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x6xRcSkPYn4

 RT Vs Motor Pt1 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rVmVtRqwaRc

 RT Vs Motor Pt2 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=szpJ97M58G4

 Riding the Waves - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X163_IilwHk


Brief Description:

 - The device is a modified 'Universal Motor' - i.e. a brushed motor that works with DC or AC

 - The stator coils are disconnected from the input power. (They're usually connected to the brushes in series)

 - DC or Rectified AC Power is provided in the usual way to the brushes. The motor turns by the attraction of the magnetised rotor to the iron stator.

 - Power is taken off the stator coils, but only in the 'right' direction - via a diode.

 - Increased load on the stators causes the motor to increase it's torque, it speeds up, and less input power is required.


Principle of Operation:

Here's how I think it works:

 - The rotor segment is magnetised just before it enters the stator.
   It's attracted to the iron core of the stator.
   No power is taken off the stator at this point.

 - The rotor segment enters the stator, providing torque...

 - The rotor is depowered as it moves past the brushes, and the next rotor segment is powered up.

 - The stator coil sees the 'loss' of flux, as the rotor segment in contact with it is depowered, so Lenz's law says it will attempt to reinforce that field.
   Now the power is taken off the stator coils...

 - The stator produces a field of the *same polarity* as the rotor (was), in reaction to the loss of flux.
   So the stator then actively attracts the next rotor segment - for 'free'...



So the Lenz's Law / Back-EMF is acting in the same direction as the rotor. It's genius. :)
Hi Tim
You have one half of the operation worked out,now you just need the other half.
Hint-DC current is no good,it must be pulsed DC or Rectified AC-wich is kinda like a pulsed dc,only in a wave form.
The universal motor isnt so good for this sort of operation,but it's all i had at the time.The bigest problem is the over laping rotor winding's,and the fact that it is only a two pole motor.

Now what happens when you have two inductors facing each other(say a 3mm gap between them),one has a load placed across it,and the other is your primary(powered)inductor.Now hit the primary with a good sharp pulse of power-what dose the loaded secondary inductor do? Yes-it creates a backEMF against the primary inductor,or the lenz force effect.
So how do the magnetic fields cut through the above setup,that differs from a standard generator or altinator???.

Offline tim123

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Re: Tinman's Rotary Transformer
« Reply #2 on: September 02, 2013, 07:20:14 PM »
I can't see ATM how rectified AC on the input will help. The change is too slow, and can't be sychronised with the rotor...

For example - take 50Hz AC - rectified = 100 pulses per sec.

If motor runs at 5000RPM (83.3Hz), and has 18 rotor poles (mine has 18) = (5000 / 60) x 18 = 1500 pole-changes per second

So each pulse covers 15 rotor-pole change-overs. So each rotor pole sees a more-or-less constant voltage throughout its 'powered-up' time. The pulses seem too slow to do anything but just reduce the overall throughput.

If the pulsing was important, surely it would have to be synchronised with the pulsing of the rotor / stator poles...?

I'm prepared to accept that pulsing may perhaps give better efficiency, but I think it will be at the expense of torque.

Quote
"So how do the magnetic fields cut through the above setup,that differs from a standard generator or altinator???."

I think it doesn't have to cut through any fields - because they're all the same polarity. It's the clever (but simple) switching arrangement ensures the stator only ever goes to the same polarity as the rotor.

I'd like to see a comparison test of plain DC Vs. pulsed / rectified. I would definitely expect to see more rotary power out from plain DC than pulsed DC of the same voltage...

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Tinman's Rotary Transformer
« Reply #2 on: September 02, 2013, 07:20:14 PM »
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Offline Magluvin

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Re: Tinman's Rotary Transformer
« Reply #3 on: September 02, 2013, 07:56:49 PM »


For example - take 50Hz AC - rectified = 100 pulses per sec.



Actually, it would be 50 pulses per sec. ;)

Mags

Offline Magluvin

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Re: Tinman's Rotary Transformer
« Reply #4 on: September 02, 2013, 07:59:01 PM »
That is if it is half wave rectification. ;)   Which is it?

Mags

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Tinman's Rotary Transformer
« Reply #4 on: September 02, 2013, 07:59:01 PM »
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Offline scratchrobot

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Re: Tinman's Rotary Transformer
« Reply #5 on: September 02, 2013, 09:01:34 PM »
I tried running an old washing machine motor from a 12v lipo battery and was amazed it ran so well.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tPF7s9r8K7A
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S9latuhlCMo


Offline tinman

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Re: Tinman's Rotary Transformer
« Reply #6 on: September 03, 2013, 02:03:25 AM »
Actually, it would be 50 pulses per sec. ;)

Mags
Mags ???
50Hz is 50 complete cycle's per second,that means 100 half cycles per second.When we rectify the ac,we bring the bottom half of the wave,and place it between the two top half's. This give's you 100 half wave cycles,or 100 pulses a second.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Tinman's Rotary Transformer
« Reply #6 on: September 03, 2013, 02:03:25 AM »
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Offline tinman

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Re: Tinman's Rotary Transformer
« Reply #7 on: September 03, 2013, 02:45:55 AM »
@ Tim
You must also remember the overlap on the rotor segments to that of the brushes.This means that four rotor segments have current passing through them at once, 80% of the time.
As you will see in the video's,my motor only runs at around 1200 to 1300 RPM.
Dont forget that in the video of the scope trace i am using a PWM at high frequency,and also notice the half wave AC. But you will also see no switching of the rotor segments in the scope,and this is because the current flow is never broken-due to the over lap.
So we have a situation were we have 2 rotor segments on,then 4, then 2 ,then 4 -and so on.
This also means that your math is not a constant,and only true for 20% per revolution.

Please dont get me wrong here. What you explained is very true and correct,but there is more happening.When you get yours up and running,do a test between pulsed DC or rectified AC,and straight DC.Work out P/in for both,torque out for both,and also P/out for both. You will find that the pulsed P/in is far more efficient.
In reguards to the overlap of the brushes to rotor segment's,you will find that the rotor segment aproaching the stator core,is always on-this is how they work in normal operation.So if it's always on,how dose the field around the stator core collap's?]
Now like you said,the frequency of the rectified ac is very low,and it is this that makes this unit very average in performance. The frequency would need to be matched to each rotor segment,and then we would have something realy cool. But us poor men have to use what we have lol.

Anyway,i am going to dust of the old unit,and reserch it right along side you on this thread.Now i have my two channel scope,we can look at the current in,and p/out from the stator coils. This way you will be able to see exactly what is happening.
As you said-this motor realy isnt good for this effect to work. But in saying that,even this motor far outperforms an off the shelf motor.
Oh,and there is one other hickup we have to sort out,and that comes when you try to use two stator coil's. I havnt figured that one out yet,but i think we will have to cut the stator housing in half???.

Offline Liberty

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Re: Tinman's Rotary Transformer
« Reply #8 on: September 03, 2013, 04:44:45 AM »
@ Tim
You must also remember the overlap on the rotor segments to that of the brushes.This means that four rotor segments have current passing through them at once, 80% of the time.
As you will see in the video's,my motor only runs at around 1200 to 1300 RPM.
Dont forget that in the video of the scope trace i am using a PWM at high frequency,and also notice the half wave AC. But you will also see no switching of the rotor segments in the scope,and this is because the current flow is never broken-due to the over lap.
So we have a situation were we have 2 rotor segments on,then 4, then 2 ,then 4 -and so on.
This also means that your math is not a constant,and only true for 20% per revolution.

Please dont get me wrong here. What you explained is very true and correct,but there is more happening.When you get yours up and running,do a test between pulsed DC or rectified AC,and straight DC.Work out P/in for both,torque out for both,and also P/out for both. You will find that the pulsed P/in is far more efficient.
In reguards to the overlap of the brushes to rotor segment's,you will find that the rotor segment aproaching the stator core,is always on-this is how they work in normal operation.So if it's always on,how dose the field around the stator core collap's?]
Now like you said,the frequency of the rectified ac is very low,and it is this that makes this unit very average in performance. The frequency would need to be matched to each rotor segment,and then we would have something realy cool. But us poor men have to use what we have lol.

Anyway,i am going to dust of the old unit,and reserch it right along side you on this thread.Now i have my two channel scope,we can look at the current in,and p/out from the stator coils. This way you will be able to see exactly what is happening.
As you said-this motor realy isnt good for this effect to work. But in saying that,even this motor far outperforms an off the shelf motor.
Oh,and there is one other hickup we have to sort out,and that comes when you try to use two stator coil's. I havnt figured that one out yet,but i think we will have to cut the stator housing in half???.

Hi Tinman,

Just curious, what are the best figures have you been able to obtain for overall efficiency of the motor in your configuration?

Liberty

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Tinman's Rotary Transformer
« Reply #8 on: September 03, 2013, 04:44:45 AM »
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Offline gotoluc

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Re: Tinman's Rotary Transformer
« Reply #9 on: September 03, 2013, 06:15:46 AM »
i am going to dust of the old unit,and reserch it right along side you on this thread.Now i have my two channel scope,we can look at the current in,and p/out from the stator coils. This way you will be able to see exactly what is happening.

Thanks TM for bringing this project back out.

I'll be watching the tests with interest

Luc

Offline MileHigh

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Re: Tinman's Rotary Transformer
« Reply #10 on: September 03, 2013, 06:46:16 AM »
Tinman:

Quote
But in saying that,even this motor far outperforms an off the shelf motor.

I watched the clip where your modified washing machine motor outperforms a fan motor which is very impressive.  However, it's possible that this will only be within a narrow range of outputs and operating parameters.

I think there are two unresolved issues when it comes to the forums and modifying motors.

The first is that to know if you are making progress you need to compare your modified motor with an unmodified motor.  Without making measurements on the two motors under the same conditions you are in a kind of data limbo.

The second is to take measurements and plot performance curves from those measurements.  This takes some real work and I have never seen it on a free energy forum.  Performance curves are what a motor is all about:

http://tinyurl.com/lozae5s

I am not making any demands, just pointing out some issues.

MileHigh

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Tinman's Rotary Transformer
« Reply #10 on: September 03, 2013, 06:46:16 AM »
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Offline tinman

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Re: Tinman's Rotary Transformer
« Reply #11 on: September 03, 2013, 08:05:11 AM »
@ Liberty &MH
The testing done so far was what you see in the video's,and also l lot of testing by way of a generator attached to the motor.
The later was a "behind the scenes" test setup. The generator was calibrated against a motor of known performance,and many variable P/in P/out were graphed.The rotary transformer was then coupled to the same generator,and once again graphs were ploted over many different P/in values and loads placed on the generator.
These results were never posted,and that will become aparent as to why in this thread.
One must also remember that i was only using one of two stator coil's,and the results of the second stator coil being put into service was never shown-along with the generator test.

So for this reason,and to build side by side with those that wish to try it,i have started a fresh build on a fresh motor. I have also been videoing each step as we go,and the first will be up here tonight.

There is one thing i wish to make very clear here, and that is we are building an efficient electric motor ONLY.
This will not become a UFOpolotics thread.
No kits will be made for sale.
No test of performance will be done using light bulbs.
And no one will be asked to leave for having a difference of opinion.-ALL opinions welcome,and looked into.
And "NO CLAIMS" of overunity will be made-unless ofcourse we can self loop the device,and have it run itself.

I know this is Tim's thread,but im sure he would agree with the things stated above. If not,im sure he will let us know.
I will also be continuing the thread on my forum on this update build of the rotary transformer.
http://iaec.forumco.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=1040
For those looking for information about the original build-it can be found there.

Below is a couple of graph i made while calibrating the standard motor and generators performance curve.
The generator was actualy a DC motor that is identical to the motor driving it.
This turned out to be a very inefficient generator,and we will need to find a better one.
The graph's made using the rotary transformer as the prime mover,will be withheld for the time being.

Im guessing you remember this Mag's?.

Offline tinman

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Re: Tinman's Rotary Transformer
« Reply #12 on: September 03, 2013, 09:40:46 AM »
Ok ,this is the first part of my new build. I hope those that are interested in this,put something together,as there is nothing better than being able to have a working device in front of you to test.
For those that use simulator's-well,if you must lol. But im not sure a sim will do motor's? But if they do,then i would be interested in seeing if it come's up with the same results shown in an actual build.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQ1xoq7g8Zk

Offline tim123

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Re: Tinman's Rotary Transformer
« Reply #13 on: September 03, 2013, 11:07:20 AM »
Nice to see the thread's got some life in it... :)

@Tinman:

Quote
...You will find that the pulsed P/in is far more efficient.

I'm prepared to believe it, but I can't see the mechanism yet - esp. when it's not synch'd.

Do you have a variable-speed inverter? It should be easy enough to synch with one of those? Not too expensive usually, Eg:
http://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/inverter-drives/7673040/

Offline tinman

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Re: Tinman's Rotary Transformer
« Reply #14 on: September 03, 2013, 12:12:39 PM »
Hi Tim
We dont need to synch anything yet,we can see on the scope what is happening,by using SCR's on the input and output. From this you will be able to see that it is the 100Hz rectified AC that provides most of the output power,and the armature switching only creates noise and very small spike's-just like in the last video of the original.
Like you said,this motor is realy not that good,but it's the best we have at the moment. The statore coil formers are way to wide,and cover to much of the rotor segments.
But all this we can work on,and make it better than it is now.

If i can get that sort of efficiency out of a stock(not well suited) motor,what could we do with one made for the job?.
I made some mod's to the old one,and increased it's efficiency by another 28%. But we will leave that out for now,and concentrate on the build from scratch.

I hope you will be doing a build aswell,and posting some video's of your progress.

 

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