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Author Topic: Magnapack  (Read 12806 times)

Offline forest

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Re: Magnapack
« Reply #15 on: September 01, 2013, 11:13:46 AM »
I see you have the required tools to go with any measurements you like. Wonderful!
May I propose a big shift forward ? Gentlemen,that's all I can do because I have no tools or Your huge experience and knowledge in electronics.


If you are willing to test it  anyway plesae provide us with explanation and video. Please correct me if I'm wrong.


This big shift starts with parallel resonant LC circuit. If you take a incandescent bulb and measure the power required to light it to certain intensity using DC current , you can do the same using less if you place this bulb in parallel resonant tank circuit powered by proper impulses. Correct ?


Now please tell me and give a proof we can do the same placing this bulb on the secondary of transformer (for example 1:1 transformer ratio) with the primary having a capacitor to still forming parallel tank circuit, powered like before from a signal generator impulses (probably that require a ferrite core transforemr with bifilar coils because at higher frequency it will be easier to adjust)
Possible ? Can you measure light intensity and compare to the input power ?



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Re: Magnapack
« Reply #15 on: September 01, 2013, 11:13:46 AM »

Offline tinman

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Re: Magnapack
« Reply #16 on: September 01, 2013, 11:28:01 AM »
@ Forest
My setup isnt a tank circuit-no cap's. And what you are asking(as far as i understand) has been done befor,and isnt hard to do.I have done it with pulse motors many time's.

@ MH
The L1 L2 resistance value is on both schematic's posted,along with R1 R2 and R3.
Or am i misunderstanding what you need?.

Now the transformer configuration is this. I have use heavy gauge speaker wire,and completely raped a large speaker magnet with it-this is the transformer.The speaker magnet is 5 inches in diameter,and made from ferrite ofcourse.

Offline tim123

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Re: Magnapack
« Reply #17 on: September 01, 2013, 12:37:02 PM »
Hi Tinman.
My understanding is that all coils have some capacitance. Hence, all coils have a natural resonant frequency.

As your 2 coils are wound together, there is capacitance between them too. So even without having capacitor components, you'll still have a tank-circuit.

Regards
Tim

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Re: Magnapack
« Reply #17 on: September 01, 2013, 12:37:02 PM »
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Offline tinman

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Re: Magnapack
« Reply #18 on: September 01, 2013, 02:38:40 PM »
Hi Tim
Yes there would be capacitance,but extreemly low in value with the small amount of turns,and copper being used. I believe it to be more of a result from the interaction between the electrical field,and the magnetic field. Also keeping in mind,we are using a toroid core aswell,wich forms a loop. If we look at how this is set up,when we have an alternating current through coils of wire that is wound at right angles to the magnetic field of the core,we would be creating a magnetic field wave around that magnetic core aswell.
What i find interesting is that not only can we shift the phase(voltage/current) out by 180*,i can also offset the current to all be below or above the zero volt line,without effecting the voltage wave form.
Now it all looks good on a 2 dimentional scope screen,but what would this look like in 3 dimentional?.

Offline tim123

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Re: Magnapack
« Reply #19 on: September 01, 2013, 03:07:51 PM »
It'd be interesting to measure the capacitance between the coils. I bet it's significant. There must be both inductive and capacitive coupling between the 2 coils. Perhaps that explains the phase shift?

The scope traces look to me like typical 'reactive' volts from running a coil at it's natural resonance point. I.e. the impedance drops, more amps flow on the input at less voltage, and higher volts appear on the output. I could be wrong...

I was watching your 'Rotary Transformer' vids yesterday. I'm fascinated. I can't figure out how it works. Gonna have to make one... Did you ever hook it up to a generator? :)



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Re: Magnapack
« Reply #19 on: September 01, 2013, 03:07:51 PM »
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Offline tinman

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Re: Magnapack
« Reply #20 on: September 01, 2013, 03:46:40 PM »
I was watching your 'Rotary Transformer' vids yesterday. I'm fascinated. I can't figure out how it works. Gonna have to make one... Did you ever hook it up to a generator? :)
Ah ,some one is starting to put all the pieces together. How exactly do you circumvent lenz force? or use it to your advantage?.
I will be interested to see if you can work that one out (the rotary transformer).
There are many on my forum who are still trying to work that one out.
I have just aquired another of those exact motor's,so now one will be the development block,(will be choped,bent and shaped),and the other will be the final product once we know what give's the best result's.

Offline tim123

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Re: Magnapack
« Reply #21 on: September 01, 2013, 08:23:11 PM »
Hi Tinman. I've figured out how it works (Rotary Transformer). It is genius mate.

Is this open source? Given the principle of operation - it's possible to improve on... The universal-motor hack isn't bad, but it's far from an optimal configuration... Really need more stator poles, not so big, eh...

I think you've totally cracked OU with the RT mate. Awesome. :)

Do we need a new thread here, to cover the RT?

Tim



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Re: Magnapack
« Reply #21 on: September 01, 2013, 08:23:11 PM »
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Offline TinselKoala

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Re: Magnapack
« Reply #22 on: September 01, 2013, 08:25:06 PM »
TK:

Are you sure you are not complicating things even more than me?  lol  My comments assume that Tinman is using a wonderful simple sine wave output from his signal generator.  That's what we see in the scope shots.  So all that you need is to work with sine wave excitation is RMS values and phase angles.  There is no need to become a human DSO with built-in math!

MileHigh

Using the method I showed the only math you need is addition, multiplication and division. You don't need to measure phase angles or calculate trig functions, and the method I show works with any waveforms or phase shifts, because it results in a sample-by-sample instantaneous power value, which you can then integrate later to find average power dissipation or energy flow.
It's tedious to do it by hand, sure... but it works and it is as accurate as you are meticulous.  You can certainly work with phase angles and RMS values for sine waves... if you are sure your waves are sinusoidal, you can measure the phase angle correctly and you are comfortable with the trig. But this only works with sinusoidal waves.

You should be able to see from tinman's traces that the phase relationship varies. But there isn't an easy way to measure the phase differences using his scope, I don't think. Maybe there is, I'll have to check the Atten manual. It might be neat to put the scope into x-y mode and see what kind of shapes you get.

Doing a manual multiplication and integration  from an analog or non-math digital scope is tedious, not complicated. There is a difference. Digital photography makes it a lot easier. Can you imagine taking a film photo, with your special Polaroid camera, of the scope screen then cutting the traces out of the photograph and weighing the shapes on an analytical balance? Or transferring to graph paper and counting little boxes of areas?  That is what people did before digital storage scopes, and they did a lot of it.

Offline TinselKoala

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Re: Magnapack
« Reply #23 on: September 01, 2013, 08:29:01 PM »
Well i now am starting to see why it's hard to learn how to measure things correctly.

Quote MH: but I am only interested in the DC resistance measurements for the two coils that form the bifilar.

Quote TK: Grr. You are operating at two thirds of a megahertz. The DC resistance alone of the coils is almost irrelevant, would only become relevant if you were doing a DC control heating run.

So two great minds telling me two different thing's? ???

(snip)

Heh... not really. I think that the inductances are going to contribute more to the total AC impedance than the resistance will. MH perhaps thinks the opposite. But it is the total AC impedance that must be used in "ohm's law" kinds of calculations, not just the DC resistance component of the total impedance.

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Re: Magnapack
« Reply #23 on: September 01, 2013, 08:29:01 PM »
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Offline Pirate88179

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Re: Magnapack
« Reply #24 on: September 01, 2013, 09:26:14 PM »
OK, I am lost here.  A long time ago I had the idea of using a neo ring for a JT core and was told that you can't use a magnet for a core because the field never collapses completely and therefore you can't get anything out of it.  So how is Tinman seeing anything out of this set-up?

As I said, I am lost and just simply do not understand this at all.  (Nothing new for me)

Bill

Offline MileHigh

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Re: Magnapack
« Reply #25 on: September 01, 2013, 10:04:46 PM »
Bill:

Of course we see many clips and free energy propositions with magnets being used as cores for coils in various setups.  It's actually one of those things that doesn't make sense but still has a life of its own.  The logic is simple:  We know coils need AC flux to respond and we know magnets produce unchanging "DC" flux.  Therefore the coil will be unaffected by the magnetic property of the core.

It's safe to assume that using a magnet as a core will be inferior to using a regular ferromagnetic core material.  Have you ever seen any clips where someone does an A-B comparison test between a regular core and a magnet as a core in some kind of setup?  The other thing worth mentioning is that if you use a magnet as a core you risk demagnetizing it.

MileHigh

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Re: Magnapack
« Reply #25 on: September 01, 2013, 10:04:46 PM »
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Offline Pirate88179

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Re: Magnapack
« Reply #26 on: September 01, 2013, 10:38:21 PM »
MH:

Thank you for the response.  No, I have never seen anyone do an A-B comparison of magnetic vs ferromagnetic cores, all else being equal.  It seems to me this might be a valuable experiment for someone to do.

I am thinking that using a magnetic core would make the device operate at a very high frequency.  The reason I say this is because, if you build a JT and it squeals, you can raise the frequency above human hearing by placing a neo on the core, then, you can't hear it.  This I have done many times but, I had no idea that the entire core could be of a magnetic material.

Possibly, one could take a speaker magnet, like Tinman, which is ferrite, and heat it above the currie temp. for that type of magnet, and wind up with a nice large ferrite core.  (Now non-magnetic)  This is something I may look into doing as the sources for the large ferrite cores appear to be long gone, unless you want to pay a lot of money.

Thanks again,

Bill

Offline Magluvin

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Re: Magnapack
« Reply #27 on: September 01, 2013, 10:56:26 PM »
OK, I am lost here.  A long time ago I had the idea of using a neo ring for a JT core and was told that you can't use a magnet for a core because the field never collapses completely and therefore you can't get anything out of it.  So how is Tinman seeing anything out of this set-up?

As I said, I am lost and just simply do not understand this at all.  (Nothing new for me)

Bill

The magnet will work as a core, just a bit different.

We have seen others devices with magnets in the cores. In industry they are called Hicore and Hiformer, hiformer for transformer with magnet in core to magnetically bias the core. Hitachi Magnetics Corporation. ;)

In a pulse mode situation, The greater current handling capability is clearly evident, about twice the volt-ampere capability before saturation as the same core without the bias magnet. Of course the pulse polarity will have to be according to the set magnet polarity, as the opposite polarity will reduce the current handling.

In your situation using a ring magnet, the magnetic field is polarized on the flat sides of the ring, not through the rings circumference like a Hiformer would be, but the ring you have will have some affect on what transpires in the transformer vs a core of like size.  That would have to be looked at to see what those differences are. ;) And being the ring magnet is not polarized against nor with the coils magnetic polarity, more like perpendicular, input electrical polarity makes no difference from what I gather. ;)

Demagnetization of the magnets in these devices used to be an issue till the advent of rare earth magnets. ;)

Mags

Offline MileHigh

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Re: Magnapack
« Reply #28 on: September 02, 2013, 12:02:10 AM »
Bill:

My suspicion is that the neo magnet reduces the energy storage capacity of your JT core.  In other words, it lowers the effective inductance of the core + coil arrangement.  That should tend to make the JT oscillator run at a higher frequency.  Some bench tests could be done to see if an approaching neo will do that to the core.

MileHigh

Offline tinman

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Re: Magnapack
« Reply #29 on: September 02, 2013, 12:27:06 AM »
Hi Tinman. I've figured out how it works (Rotary Transformer). It is genius mate.

Is this open source? Given the principle of operation - it's possible to improve on... The universal-motor hack isn't bad, but it's far from an optimal configuration... Really need more stator poles, not so big, eh...

I think you've totally cracked OU with the RT mate. Awesome. :)

Do we need a new thread here, to cover the RT?

Tim
Hi Tim
The universal motor was just handy at the time,and yes-it could be made much more efficient, but we use what we have handy at the time.You could have more pole's on the stator,but no more than half of that of the rotor.
Feel free to start a thread on it if you like,and share how you believe it work's,im interested to see how close you are.

 

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