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Author Topic: Re: Bruce's TPU Theory and Experiments - understanding field lines  (Read 19863 times)

Offline MileHigh

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Re: Bruce's TPU Theory and Experiments - understanding field lines
« Reply #30 on: August 30, 2013, 10:59:10 PM »
You said your piece but the magnetic field around a magnet remains exactly in the form "I" said it is in.

If you disagree, please post a sketch showing the "new" pattern.

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Dave45

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Re: Bruce's TPU Theory and Experiments - understanding field lines
« Reply #31 on: August 31, 2013, 03:35:01 AM »
found this on the net, the bloch wall, figure 8
Looks like the z pinch but this is on the outside of the magnet, I think we all have alot to learn.
Does this allude to the shape or is it just an effect,
I personally think the magnetic field is an energy carrier, I think the magnetic and electric properties are two separate entity's, the magnetic field cannot be stopped but the electric field can, but then again who knows.




Offline MileHigh

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Re: Bruce's TPU Theory and Experiments - understanding field lines
« Reply #32 on: August 31, 2013, 04:31:27 AM »
The figure 8 inside the neon tube is conventional.   This clip gives you the explanation behind the effect (also shown in your second picture):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bG2aQUD8xt0

Where do you see a Bloch wall?

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Re: Bruce's TPU Theory and Experiments - understanding field lines
« Reply #32 on: August 31, 2013, 04:31:27 AM »
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Offline tinman

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Re: Bruce's TPU Theory and Experiments - understanding field lines
« Reply #33 on: August 31, 2013, 09:09:43 AM »
I would imagine your quotes relate to the "Parrot effect", a parrot just keeps repeating what they have heard until they are taught something new. As you may know People can be like that and many people still cling to the past despite the fact that science has proven them wrong. Science does not advance because it is the truth science advances only when the truth can no longer be denied by those stuck in the past.


In any case the very premise of a measure is that it remains neutral and the iron filings experiment is equivalent to a measuring tape which changes it's length every time we go to measure something.
So what causes the iron fileings to form that pattern in the begining,when droped randomly onto the paper ontop the magnet?.
There is one way to see a 3 dimentional field pattern being formed,and for that we can use liquid metal.
If evenly applied over the "pole" end of a magnet,we should see a smooth rounded formation-if field line's do not exist. If field lines do exist,then the liquid metal should look like some punk rockers hair doo once cured. As curing time would be hour's,then only a true result would be gained from this test.

Offline John.K1

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Re: Bruce's TPU Theory and Experiments - understanding field lines
« Reply #34 on: August 31, 2013, 10:10:57 AM »
I have the ferrofluid at home  and it is actually interesting question why does it spike. Why there is no metal between spikes, or at lest at very bottom? The answer might be a viscosity or  the surface potential forces in the oil (liquid)?
Hmm. How to see real magnetic field? The best would be to take a look at he Magnetar star pictures and its because if you can see the magnetic flux it is the case when the charged particles are very spread in the space and do not interact between each other as strong as iron filling. There is number of images on Google. To find which are the real and which are the photoshop I leave up to you :) 

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Re: Bruce's TPU Theory and Experiments - understanding field lines
« Reply #34 on: August 31, 2013, 10:10:57 AM »
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Offline John.K1

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Re: Bruce's TPU Theory and Experiments - understanding field lines
« Reply #35 on: August 31, 2013, 11:16:08 AM »
Sorry for the quality of the picture :) Interesting Gyro effect. If I have it n my hands and very slowly turn my body, the spikes tries to keep still the same orientation. Eventually it turns with delay.

Offline rensseak

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Re: Bruce's TPU Theory and Experiments - understanding field lines
« Reply #36 on: August 31, 2013, 06:39:18 PM »
The figure 8 inside the neon tube is conventional.   This clip gives you the explanation behind the effect (also shown in your second picture):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bG2aQUD8xt0

Where do you see a Bloch wall?

or like this one: Understanding_Magnets_With_EFD_and_SMP

http://www.nanomagnetics.us/

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Re: Bruce's TPU Theory and Experiments - understanding field lines
« Reply #36 on: August 31, 2013, 06:39:18 PM »
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Offline allcanadian

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Re: Bruce's TPU Theory and Experiments - understanding field lines
« Reply #37 on: September 02, 2013, 04:07:27 PM »
@Tinman
Quote
So what causes the iron fileings to form that pattern in the begining,when droped randomly onto the paper ontop the magnet?.


The process is called "Magnetic Induction" not to be confused with a similar phenomena called Electromagnetic Induction.


magnetic induction[/size][/font]
n.
1. The process by which a substance such as iron or steel, becomes magnetized by a magnetic field. The induced magnetism is produced by the force of the field radiating from the poles of a magnet.




If one single iron filing enters the field of a magnet it becomes a magnet in itself with a polarity opposite to the magnetic field which induced it  ie Magnetic Induction. This is where all the confusion starts because matter cannot attract matter unless a "field" is present. It is the fields which produce the external forces not matter in itself.


Each iron filing is induced with an individual magnetic field thus the iron filings interact with the external field which induced them (the magnet) and the magnetic field induced in every other iron filing.


Let's do a thought experiment, I have 20 small magnets and I throw them on a small table one by one --- what happens?. Each magnet will be attracted to the others opposite pole and they will always form a "line" of magnets.I have done this experiment and it works every single time without fault. When the iron filings are induced with a magnetic field they always form lines in exactly the same way.


These are not field lines they are due to the magnetic forces present which cause each iron filing to be magnetized by the external field and attract each other. Remember each iron filing has an induced magnetic field of it's own. Once the iron filings form lines these individual lines repel one another giving the misleading pattern we see. Each individual iron filing attracts every other iron filing forming a line and each line repels every other line.


AC








« Last Edit: September 02, 2013, 06:58:22 PM by allcanadian »

Offline allcanadian

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Re: Bruce's TPU Theory and Experiments - understanding field lines
« Reply #38 on: September 02, 2013, 04:37:19 PM »
@Tinman
It may help to completely change the context of the forces in order to see what is actually happening.


I have an empty room and outside the room we have a line up of men and women. The men and women are attracted to one another however the men are repelled by other men and the women are repelled by other women.


Now in the middle of this room we place a lunch table and both men and women are attracted to it. We open the door and a man enters moving towards the table, then a woman enters and stands next to the man in line with the table. Next another man enters and stands next to the woman. Each person entering must stand next to their opposite forming lines.


You see we must always end up with lines of people, man woman man woman man woman and these parallel lines of people must congregate around the source of attraction --- the lunch table. We see why the imaginary lines cannot cross because the attractive/repulsive forces will not allow it.We would end up with exactly the same pattern as we see around our magnet thus we could easily presume it has nothing to do with the magnet or magnetic lines but moreso a pattern produced whenever certain forces are present.


AC






« Last Edit: September 02, 2013, 07:07:17 PM by allcanadian »

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Re: Bruce's TPU Theory and Experiments - understanding field lines
« Reply #38 on: September 02, 2013, 04:37:19 PM »
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Offline allcanadian

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Re: Bruce's TPU Theory and Experiments - understanding field lines
« Reply #39 on: September 04, 2013, 02:59:25 PM »
Now that we understand what is in fact actually happening we can do some other more interesting thought experiments.


If we have a ball bearing 1m away from a magnet then the total work which could be performed is equal to the force times the distance moved relative to the magnet. Can you see the problem with this scenario?.


Now let's take our ball bearing and break it into one hundred pieces and stretch these pieces out so they resemble our iron filings. If we place the magnet 1m away from our iron filings then we could expect the same amount of work to be performed, force times the distance moved relative to the magnet. However we have a problem because each iron filing must "rotate" on it's center of mass to align with the external field of the magnet and this "rotation" is work. Next each iron filing moves towards the induced field of the next iron filing and this motion is also work, force times the distance moved. Finally after all this motion constituting work the iron filings then move towards the magnet as they did in our first case when the pieces were joined forming our ball bearing.


The only point I would make here is that the equal induced mass of the ball bearing and the one hundred pieces of ball bearing do not act the same. The work is not equivalent yet in the far field 1m from the magnet the force relative to the magnet should be nearly the same.
 
We should remember that many supposed laws or rules have an alter-ego and when they say there is nothing we can do to change the force on a body at a distance through a transformation or change in geometry this is true. If this is true then it may also be true that a the body may transform in any number of ways performing work and the force must remain the same. We have transformed the rule just as we have transformed the body and the total work performed in any given instance.

AC



Offline tsl

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Re: Bruce's TPU Theory and Experiments - understanding field lines
« Reply #40 on: September 05, 2013, 02:53:38 PM »
hello out there,
quick question about field lines(fields)
if a saturated toroidal core (no coil) is placed inside a external field would that field be disturbed by the satuarted core and if yes how?
my sim software does not allow such configuration, just simple coils.
cheers

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Re: Bruce's TPU Theory and Experiments - understanding field lines
« Reply #40 on: September 05, 2013, 02:53:38 PM »
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