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Author Topic: Re: Bruce's TPU Theory and Experiments - understanding field lines  (Read 20060 times)

Offline MileHigh

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Re: Bruce's TPU Theory and Experiments - understanding field lines
« Reply #15 on: August 26, 2013, 02:47:20 PM »
Magregus:

Quote
Those field lines from the magnetic diagrams are completely wrong.

In fact they are correct and you can easily observe the field lines yourself to confirm it.

MasterPlaster:

Quote
One thing that always bothers me about any graphical representation of magnetic fields is that they are shown as a two dimensional effect.

MAGNETIC FIELDS ARE 3 DIMENSIONAL.

Also there is no such thing as lines of magnetic force and even if there were, they do not follow a straight line.

Once every one clears their mind of garbage then new thinking can begin.

Yes indeed they are three-dimensional.  I am sure if you looked a little bit you could find a 3D Java or Flash applet that shows this.  However, it's good to exercise your brain and make the effort to do the 3D visualization in your head.

Lines of magnetic force do really exist in the sense that you can "connect the dots" of the force vectors in 3D space using the power of your imagination to visualize what is going on.  By the same token there is no North pole or South pole in a magnetic field but it is convenient to use these terms when discussing a bar magnet.

Once you get up the learning curve and master the basics then your thinking gets clearer for understanding more advanced concepts.

MileHigh

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Offline allcanadian

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Re: Bruce's TPU Theory and Experiments - understanding field lines
« Reply #16 on: August 26, 2013, 06:07:07 PM »
@MH
Quote

In fact they are correct and you can easily observe the field lines yourself to confirm it.

No, in fact they are not correct and are an artifact of people reading outdated textbooks from the 1920's instead of proving the matter for themselves. The picture below is a true representation of the field gradient and was taken from this website, http://www.google.ca/imgres?imgurl=http://www.nature.com/nphys/journal/v4/n5/covers/largecover.gif&imgrefurl=http://www.nature.com/nphys/journal/v4/n5/covers/index.html&usg=__CC5zAf9tMp8lyQIozpVNzLkL7qI=&h=577&w=440&sz=91&hl=en&start=32&zoom=1&tbnid=koSW6CvVHf4zRM:&tbnh=134&tbnw=102&ei=HmUbUtKwBaTl4AP6rYAY&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dvisualization%2Bmagnetic%2Bfield%26start%3D20%26um%3D1%26sa%3DN%26hl%3Den%26gbv%3D2%26tbm%3Disch&um=1&itbs=1&sa=X&ved=0CEEQrQMwCzgU.
 
On a note of interest I knew this many years ago and mapped the magnetic field gradient with a hall effect sensor for myself after reading the research of Howard Johnson. It is also interesting to note that the field gradient as we know follows the inverse square law as such the greatest field density is in close proximity to the source polar regions. So why do the largest regions of greatest field density at the poles curl back into itself and not the opposite pole as you have suggested?. I will give you a little hint, every first year physics student knows the answer I just want to know if you do.
 
AC

Offline MileHigh

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Re: Bruce's TPU Theory and Experiments - understanding field lines
« Reply #17 on: August 27, 2013, 06:53:50 AM »
Well the iron filings don't lie.  Nice pseudo coloring where it looks like the pseudo coloring wraps around as the intensity increases.  John Lennon's glasses from 1967?  lol Don't know the answer.

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Re: Bruce's TPU Theory and Experiments - understanding field lines
« Reply #17 on: August 27, 2013, 06:53:50 AM »
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Offline Magregus

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Re: Bruce's TPU Theory and Experiments - understanding field lines
« Reply #18 on: August 27, 2013, 07:01:17 AM »
Well the iron filings don't lie.  Nice pseudo coloring where it looks like the pseudo coloring wraps around as the intensity increases.  John Lennon's glasses from 1967?  lol Don't know the answer.

Facepalm! The iron filings are being attracted to the poles on the magnet, they are NOT showing where the fields are going.

Offline MileHigh

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Re: Bruce's TPU Theory and Experiments - understanding field lines
« Reply #19 on: August 27, 2013, 07:10:34 AM »
What poles?  There are no true poles!

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Re: Bruce's TPU Theory and Experiments - understanding field lines
« Reply #19 on: August 27, 2013, 07:10:34 AM »
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Offline allcanadian

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Re: Bruce's TPU Theory and Experiments - understanding field lines
« Reply #20 on: August 27, 2013, 02:57:17 PM »
@Milehigh
Quote
Well the iron filings don't lie.


I used to think exactly the same thing and then I understood that the iron filings are effected by both the source magnetic field and each other through magnetic induction. Each individual iron filing is induced with it's own magnetic field then each iron filing parallel to one another repels and each above or below each other attracts each other. Thus it is easy to understand that the magnetized iron filings form lines not because there are lines of force but because each has become a magnet in itself. We can replace the iron filings with long slender cylinder magnets and no large external field and they form lines as well.


Think of it this way, would it be wise to measure the voltage on a conductor if all the voltmeters were not only effected by the voltage but also every other voltmeter. Well no, because all the readings would change every time we added or subtracted a voltmeter.


We cannot measure something accurately when the measuring tool (iron filing) is effected by both the external field and every other measuring tool. A hall effect probe does not have this defect and accurately measures the field at any given position.


I think it is very easy to understand and found it very surprising that so many people could be misled by by such simple effects.


AC

Offline tinman

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Re: Bruce's TPU Theory and Experiments - understanding field lines
« Reply #21 on: August 27, 2013, 04:41:09 PM »
@Milehigh

I used to think exactly the same thing and then I understood that the iron filings are effected by both the source magnetic field and each other through magnetic induction. Each individual iron filing is induced with it's own magnetic field then each iron filing parallel to one another repels and each above or below each other attracts each other. Thus it is easy to understand that the magnetized iron filings form lines not because there are lines of force but because each has become a magnet in itself. We can replace the iron filings with long slender cylinder magnets and no large external field and they form lines as well.


Think of it this way, would it be wise to measure the voltage on a conductor if all the voltmeters were not only effected by the voltage but also every other voltmeter. Well no, because all the readings would change every time we added or subtracted a voltmeter.


We cannot measure something accurately when the measuring tool (iron filing) is effected by both the external field and every other measuring tool. A hall effect probe does not have this defect and accurately measures the field at any given position.


I think it is very easy to understand and found it very surprising that so many people could be misled by by such simple effects.


AC
Well a steel ball between two like field's will be repelled,not attracted to the magnets,so it makes sence that the iron fileings would do the same.
But im with MH on this one-what pole's? or what do you refer to as the pole's?.
The term north pole and south pole were chosen because of the orientation of the magnetic field on earth,and ofcourse we have the north pole and the south pole.
So dose the north pole of the earth have a north magnetic field(as we are calling it)or is it a north attracting field(south field)?.Dose our compusses north needle point to a north field,or a south field?.
Well what we know as the north pole,is actualy magneticly south,and the south pole is magneticly north.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Bruce's TPU Theory and Experiments - understanding field lines
« Reply #21 on: August 27, 2013, 04:41:09 PM »
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Offline allcanadian

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Re: Bruce's TPU Theory and Experiments - understanding field lines
« Reply #22 on: August 27, 2013, 06:03:36 PM »
@All
Here is a picture to explain what is happening with our iron filings. In frame 1 we can see the basic forces at work, magnets on a vertical axis attract and magnets on a horizontal axis repel. Like poles repel and unlike poles attract, I say poles so everyone knows what I am talking about.
 
In frame 2 we see a permanent magnet which has induced a magnetic field in our gray iron filings or iron cores which is called "Magnetic Induction". Notice all the iron filings have been induced with a polarity opposite to the permanent magnet, this is because the permanent magnet is the predominant field which has induced each of the individual iron filings.
 
In frame 3 we see the forces pushing the filings apart on the horizontal axis which is also aligning them on the vertical axis. They are not aligning with some imaginary lines of force they are simply attracting and repelling from the other iron filings with their own induced magnetic fields. Here is an experiment, take two iron rods or bolts and align them parallel to one another on a table. Next move a permanent magnet near the rods from the top, What happens?, they move away from one another because the induced like poles at each end repel one another.
 
In frame 4 we see the iron filings have repelled from one another on any horizontal axis and attracted to one another on the vertical axis. On the vertical axis the like poles have moved towards one another -- Attraction. Each line of filings attracted to one another vertically also repels every other line of filings because we have like poles opposite one another like this.
 
Repulsion
 
N   N
S   S
 
 
Attraction
 
N
S
 
N
S
 
Again I must say that it is amazing that a process so fundamentally simple and taught in every high school textbook could lead to so much confusion. It is also important to understand that the fields and forces we know exist in 1" pieces of iron wire in a magnetic field do not magically cease to exist or contradict the laws of physics just because the wires get smaller such as iron filings. The laws of physics still apply it is just that they apply in a way we did not expect.
 
AC

Dave45

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Re: Bruce's TPU Theory and Experiments - understanding field lines
« Reply #23 on: August 28, 2013, 04:05:15 AM »
The coil was froze powered up with 12v ac

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Re: Bruce's TPU Theory and Experiments - understanding field lines
« Reply #23 on: August 28, 2013, 04:05:15 AM »
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Offline John.K1

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Re: Bruce's TPU Theory and Experiments - understanding field lines
« Reply #24 on: August 28, 2013, 07:55:00 PM »
?

Offline John.K1

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Re: Bruce's TPU Theory and Experiments - understanding field lines
« Reply #25 on: August 28, 2013, 08:32:16 PM »
Reference to .pdf "Practical guide to free energy" :

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Re: Bruce's TPU Theory and Experiments - understanding field lines
« Reply #25 on: August 28, 2013, 08:32:16 PM »
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Offline MileHigh

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Re: Bruce's TPU Theory and Experiments - understanding field lines
« Reply #26 on: August 29, 2013, 01:54:44 AM »
Dave45:

The pattern you are seeing is a Moire pattern where the magnetic field from the magnet is interacting with the TV screen's electron beam and the aperture grill and the different coloured phosphor dots on the screen.  It is not showing any hex or other symmetry of the magnetic field.  The different colour patches mean nothing, they are just a Moire pattern.

John.K1:

That's not what the magnetic field looks like around a bar magnet.  The iron filings do not distort the magnetic field in any significant way.  You can't put a bunch of magnets together in some special arrangement to get a net field in a single direction.  The simple explanation and the simple diagrams that you have seen all your life are correct.

MileHigh

Offline allcanadian

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Re: Bruce's TPU Theory and Experiments - understanding field lines
« Reply #27 on: August 29, 2013, 05:28:55 AM »
@Milehigh
Quote
That's not what the magnetic field looks like around a bar magnet.  The iron filings do not distort the magnetic field in any significant way.


You never did respond to my post concerning this issue nor critique my illustrations and explanation in post #22. Can you find any errors in my logic?, it may not be common knowledge but it has been pretty much accepted that the iron filings pattern is misleading at best. It is basically an artifact from a time long ago when when dinosaurs roamed the Earth and scientists were frolicking in pools of mercury and asbestos thinking it was perfectly safe.
Times change Milehigh and as much as you and I may think we know it all I can assure you some little brat is going to make us look stupid. We are, that is a fact of life and you can cling to the past and pretend nothing can change or grow a set of balls and take it like a man. Evolution and progress is inevitable...


Now I gave you a valid and logical explanation for the pattern of iron filings with diagrams.... prove me wrong.


AC




Offline MileHigh

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Re: Bruce's TPU Theory and Experiments - understanding field lines
« Reply #28 on: August 29, 2013, 02:28:41 PM »
http://van.physics.illinois.edu/qa/listing.php?id=418

Quote
Q: Why do iron filings line up in a magnetic field? would copper filing be equally satisfactory? why is it desirable to tap the glass plate? why is it desirable to use very few filings? what is the method for mapping a magnetic field by the use of a small compass?

Quote
A: Iron is one of the ferromagnetic elements. Each iron filing consists of numerous magnetic domains. It turns out these domains can lower their energy by lining up with their fields along the skinny direction of the filing. Then the filing as a whole is a bar magnet, kind of like a compass needle, which can lower its energy by lining up with an external field. The effect should be enhanced by a tendency of the filings to line up end-to-end, influenced by each others' fields. If the filings are sitting on a glass plate friction can be too strong to let them rotate. Tapping reduces the friction temporarily. If you use too many filings they more or less form a uniformly magnetic sheet, losing any tendency to line up end-to-end, and also making something too thick to visualize clearly.
 
A compass needle is just a good example of a magnet that will line up in a field. If you had a lot of little compasses, they would be like your iron filings. If you have just one compass, you can just move it around to map out the field.
Copper is very weakly paramagnetic, which means there is a tiny effect of the same sign as in iron. I strongly doubt that you will ever notice even the slightest tendency of copper filing to line up in a magnetic field.

Offline allcanadian

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Re: Bruce's TPU Theory and Experiments - understanding field lines
« Reply #29 on: August 30, 2013, 05:37:04 PM »
I would imagine your quotes relate to the "Parrot effect", a parrot just keeps repeating what they have heard until they are taught something new. As you may know People can be like that and many people still cling to the past despite the fact that science has proven them wrong. Science does not advance because it is the truth science advances only when the truth can no longer be denied by those stuck in the past.


In any case the very premise of a measure is that it remains neutral and the iron filings experiment is equivalent to a measuring tape which changes it's length every time we go to measure something.

 

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