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Author Topic: Re: Bruce's TPU Theory and Experiments - understanding field lines  (Read 19864 times)

Offline MileHigh

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Here is  Bruce's last comment:

Quote
I could not care less about a video that has NOTHING to do with what I asked.  Nor will I allow the thread to be distracted. 

Nothing wrong with the discussion but none of it will help you with my question.

So...I am locking my thread to give you all a chance to get back on track.  This train has left the track a couple of pages ago...lol

In a day or so, I will unlock it with.a new question.

You all may open a new thread to discuss your concerns with any youtube video you choose!  Have fun

Cheers,

Bruce

Okay, so I will pick it up in the next posting.

MileHigh

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Offline MileHigh

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Re: Bruce's TPU Theory and Experiments - understanding field lines
« Reply #1 on: August 25, 2013, 10:36:14 PM »
So here is the clip for reference:  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=naaeDJLcxgs&list=WL1B63456BED3C1ACA

A few of you were fairly close but because this is very basic stuff, so I was looking for a full and complete answer.

The problem with the clip entitled "Rotary Magnetic Fields" is that it is not even showing any magnetic fields.

It's almost shocking to me that nobody stated this.  In the TPU thread you talk about magnetic fields ad nauseum and yet nobody noticed this?  Whenever you hear "magnetic fields" you are supposed to think about field lines that form closed loops.  There are no closed loop field lines in the clip therefore the simulation is not showing you magnetic fields!  If you learn the basics about electricity and magnetism this is supposed to be hard-coded into your thought processes.

The clip is showing electric field lines of force.  This also should be blatantly obvious if you understand the basics.

The clip is showing two rotating pairs, each pair consisting of a positively charged disk and a negatively charged disk.  You are seeing the pattern of the electric field lines change as the two pairs of charged disks rotate.  I say "charged disks" but they could be something else.  This is all about moving objects charged with static electricity and the resultant changing electric field lines.

The clip does not state what the physical configuration is at all.  What is clear is that you are "looking down" and seeing a planar "horizontal" slice of the electric field pattern.  They could be thin charged disks or they could be long statically charged wires that are isolated and you are looking at a "horizontal" slice of the electric field pattern.

My recommendation if you want to get more informed is this guy:  http://www.youtube.com/user/lasseviren1/videos

MileHigh

Addendum:  I should also state that this can be modeled by objects charged with static electricity or alternatively modeled by conductive objects (like long metal cylinders) that are connected to a DC potential source, like a battery or a power suppy.  It's important to state that if the long cylinders are connected to a DC potential source that no current is flowing.  So even though the long metal cylinders are connected to a DC potential source, with no current flow the rotating setup is electrically "static" also.

Offline MileHigh

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Re: Bruce's TPU Theory and Experiments - understanding field lines
« Reply #2 on: August 25, 2013, 10:42:10 PM »
Just a little follow-up on Bruce's comment:

Quote
In a day or so, I will unlock it with.a new question.

So far Bruce your questions have been so general and without specifics that they border on the ridiculous.

Two rotating magnetic fields?  Where?  What produces them?  What is their orientation?  Do they turn at the same speed?  And on and on and on.

Bruce, my suggestion to you is to change your strategy.  Either ask reasonable questions that are comprehensible and make sense, or just make your case with the facts as you see them.

MileHigh

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Re: Bruce's TPU Theory and Experiments - understanding field lines
« Reply #2 on: August 25, 2013, 10:42:10 PM »
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Offline penno64

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Offline TinselKoala

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Re: Bruce's TPU Theory and Experiments - understanding field lines
« Reply #4 on: August 26, 2013, 12:24:36 AM »
@MH: they all look like closed loops to me. Usually when I think of Electric field "lines" I tend to think of equipotential surfaces, which of course are parallel to the charged surfaces not perpendicular. But if you plot "attraction" or "repulsion" electric field lines they look just about like magnetic field lines. Both are of course mathematical fictions, there really isn't any such thing as a "field line", electric or magnetic, just as there is no such thing as an "isobar" line in real weather, just on weather maps.

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Re: Bruce's TPU Theory and Experiments - understanding field lines
« Reply #4 on: August 26, 2013, 12:24:36 AM »
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Offline MileHigh

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Re: Bruce's TPU Theory and Experiments - understanding field lines
« Reply #5 on: August 26, 2013, 02:13:55 AM »
Penno64:

Sorry, your link is not helping me at all.

TK:

They are not closed loops, they are leaving one disk and landing on another disk.  They are the path that a massless electrical charge would take in the electric field.  The electric field lines are at right angles to any virtual equipotential surface that exists in empty space between the disks.

Although it's not too clear because it's a crappy 240p video, the dead giveaway is that the lines leave/land on the disks at right angles to the surfaces of the disks.

Quote
But if you plot "attraction" or "repulsion" electric field lines they look just about like magnetic field lines.

I am going to assume the following:

Two standard bar magnets facing each other in repulsion:   [S****N]     [N****S]

Two rectangular metal bars facing each other both positively charged:   [+++++]     [+++++]

If you only look at the localized volume between the ends of the bars in close proximity, the lines of force will look somewhat similar.  The giveaway will be that the electric lines of force must exit the surfaces of the metal bars at right angles vs. that not being a requirement for the magnetic lines of force.

When you look at the rest of the volume they are completely dissimilar.  Plus you still can't forget the basics.  Both magnets create field lines that are closed loops right out to the limit of infinity.  Both charged metal bars create field lines that extend straight out to the limit of infinity and there are no closed loops.

These two clips are not a perfect match for this discussion but they are close:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1I0EQzP8nBs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cxTS1T6f13I

MileHigh

Offline MileHigh

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Re: Bruce's TPU Theory and Experiments - understanding field lines
« Reply #6 on: August 26, 2013, 02:27:23 AM »
Just something to perhaps help beginners:

Quote
there really isn't any such thing as a "field line"

There is no literal field "line."  However what there literally is at any point in 3D space is a vector for either an electric field or a magnetic field.  A vector has magnitude and direction, and you can visualize it as a little arrow in 3D space that has size and direction.

Since each little arrow has direction, and you can imagine a 3D matrix of millions of arrows, each one at a different position, then the arrows will line up and form a "path."  That "lined up path of arrows" is the imaginary field line.  The important point being that at any position on the imaginary field line, there is a real little electric field or magnetic field vector that is lined up with the field line. 

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Re: Bruce's TPU Theory and Experiments - understanding field lines
« Reply #6 on: August 26, 2013, 02:27:23 AM »
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Offline tinman

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Re: Bruce's TPU Theory and Experiments - understanding field lines
« Reply #7 on: August 26, 2013, 04:06:03 AM »
Well i did state in my answer that the shown field line's jump from one magnet to the opposite pole of the other magnet,insted of looping around to the opposite pole of the same magnet-that has to be worth half an apple lol.

Offline MileHigh

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Re: Bruce's TPU Theory and Experiments - understanding field lines
« Reply #8 on: August 26, 2013, 04:41:11 AM »
Some extra information for fun.   For electric fields:

The diagram below illustrates the field lines of force associated with the electric field between charges, where (a) shows the field lines connecting a negative-positive charge pair, while (b) shows the field lines separating two positive charges. The main rules that define the behaviour and properties of these field lines are listed as follows:
 
Electric field lines start on positive charges and end on negative charges.
The density of electric field lines indicates the strength of the E field in a particular region. The field is stronger where the lines get closer together.
Field-lines never cross and never merge.
Field lines connect perpendicularly to the source and sink charges.
The direction of the electric force at any point on the field line must form a tangent to the field line.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Bruce's TPU Theory and Experiments - understanding field lines
« Reply #8 on: August 26, 2013, 04:41:11 AM »
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Offline MileHigh

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Re: Bruce's TPU Theory and Experiments - understanding field lines
« Reply #9 on: August 26, 2013, 04:46:55 AM »
Now for magnets.  Not that the magnetic fields do not have to enter or leave the magnets at a right angle to the surface of the magnet.

Offline MileHigh

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Re: Bruce's TPU Theory and Experiments - understanding field lines
« Reply #10 on: August 26, 2013, 05:04:51 AM »
Final comments.  Some people may be wondering at how the fancy and somewhat complex field lines are formed for both the magnetic lines of force and the electric lines of force.

In actuality the process is very simple.  It just a "blind and dumb" addition of the field vectors from each source at every point in 3D space that's taking place, giving you the resultant pattern.  Take the example of two positive charges that are spheres.  Both will emit straight lines of electric force that extend out to infinity.   So when you put two positively charged spheres next to each other "nothing happens."  It's like each positively charged sphere is still emitting exactly the same electric field lines.  At every point in 3D space you have a vector addition taking place, one vector from one sphere added to the second vector from the second sphere.

That's why a "Rodin coil" is a meaningless futile exercise.   Every loop in the Rodin coil generates a magnetic field that blindly adds to the magnetic field generated by every other loop in the Rodin coil.  Instead of in a regular coil where you have a nice orderly addition of all of the magnetic field vectors contributed by each loop, for a Rodin coil you have a mish-mash were every loop is a different shape and a different orientation.  You still have the same dumb blind addition of magnetic field vectors taking place but since they are not lined up like in a regular coil, you have partial additions and partial subtractions taking place.  After all that trouble winding the Rodin coil you still end up with a bloody coil that has no special properties above and beyond a regular coil.  A Rodin coil is just an inefficient use of wire to make an inductor and no more than that.

MileHigh

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Bruce's TPU Theory and Experiments - understanding field lines
« Reply #10 on: August 26, 2013, 05:04:51 AM »
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Offline Magregus

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Re: Bruce's TPU Theory and Experiments - understanding field lines
« Reply #11 on: August 26, 2013, 05:33:59 AM »
Those field lines from the magnetic diagrams are completely wrong.

Offline TinselKoala

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Re: Bruce's TPU Theory and Experiments - understanding field lines
« Reply #12 on: August 26, 2013, 06:28:41 AM »
Magnetic field lines emanate from electron orbitals, ie charge in motion, and are loops through those orbitals. Where and at what angle they exit the _surface_ of a bulk magnet is really immaterial. No pun intended! There are no real "lines" and there aren't even real "poles", just polarities. They are at right angles to the generating motion of charge, as always.
If you draw a single bar magnet and make it transparent, you will see that the lines do just the same thing as the electric field lines between two opposite charges. True, all the lines exiting the bulk magnet will loop around and close, and electric field lines _from a single charge_ extend to infinity... but that isn't what is shown in the diagrams. There are two charges! Not all the EF lines will extend to infinity, many or most will terminate on the charged electrodes, and the bulk diagram in the near field will look very much like the magnetic field lines within and around the bar magnet.
When you introduce a second bar magnet with its two "polarities", but compare to the field from only two electric charges as before... you no longer are making a valid comparison, imo.


Offline forest

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Re: Bruce's TPU Theory and Experiments - understanding field lines
« Reply #13 on: August 26, 2013, 10:42:37 AM »
Magnetic field lines emanate from electron orbitals, ie charge in motion, and are loops through those orbitals. Where and at what angle they exit the _surface_ of a bulk magnet is really immaterial. No pun intended! There are no real "lines" and there aren't even real "poles", just polarities. They are at right angles to the generating motion of charge, as always.
If you draw a single bar magnet and make it transparent, you will see that the lines do just the same thing as the electric field lines between two opposite charges. True, all the lines exiting the bulk magnet will loop around and close, and electric field lines _from a single charge_ extend to infinity... but that isn't what is shown in the diagrams. There are two charges! Not all the EF lines will extend to infinity, many or most will terminate on the charged electrodes, and the bulk diagram in the near field will look very much like the magnetic field lines within and around the bar magnet.
When you introduce a second bar magnet with its two "polarities", but compare to the field from only two electric charges as before... you no longer are making a valid comparison, imo.




My friend , you are one step from ou  ;)

Offline MasterPlaster

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Re: Bruce's TPU Theory and Experiments - understanding field lines
« Reply #14 on: August 26, 2013, 01:43:43 PM »
One thing that always bothers me about any graphical representation of magnetic fields is that they are shown as a two dimensional effect.

MAGNETIC FIELDS ARE 3 DIMENSIONAL.

Also there is no such thing as lines of magnetic force and even if there were, they do not follow a straight line.

Once every one clears their mind of garbage then new thinking can begin.

 

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