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Author Topic: A SIMPLE ELECTRIC HEATER, WHICH HAS EFFICIENCY GREATER THAN 1  (Read 89094 times)

Offline kolbacict

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Re: A SIMPLE ELECTRIC HEATER, WHICH HAS EFFICIENCY GREATER THAN 1
« Reply #360 on: November 22, 2020, 04:15:47 PM »
Hi.
If we running cold  water continuously, how can we measure heat release?
But I suppose we can still measure it. the change in the composition of the electrolyte in 1000 seconds can be neglected. As the temperature rises, the cell resistance will drop. But we can use a power supply with output power stabilization. At 16 watts. And it will be reliable enough.

p.s. https://overunity.com/18709/the-optimum-electrode-waveform-for-watergas-production/msg553329/#new
Here, it seems people are already getting over-unity hydrogen.(over and above Faraday.)  ;)

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy


Offline George1

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Re: A SIMPLE ELECTRIC HEATER, WHICH HAS EFFICIENCY GREATER THAN 1
« Reply #361 on: November 22, 2020, 04:47:18 PM »
Hi kolbacict,
Thank you for your reply. It's a real pleasure to discuss the matter with you.
----------------------------
1) Well, you rise interesting questions related to precise calorimetric measuring. (The latter is in any case a sophisticated and complex field of knowledge.) You have some original measuring ideas as I can see. Perfect! Agree with them!
2) About the p.s. Yes, it's perfectly possible that these guys have designed some OU electrolysis process. As if there are many OU possibilities in this world. Need some time to consider their concept carefully.
----------------------------
Looking forward to your answer.
Regards,
George
 
 

Offline Floor

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Re: A SIMPLE ELECTRIC HEATER, WHICH HAS EFFICIENCY GREATER THAN 1
« Reply #362 on: November 22, 2020, 07:05:56 PM »
Hello George 1

You started this topic on 01/28/19. 

   Here is your original statement / claim / bait.

https://mypicxbg.files.wordpress.com/2019/01/pages_1-6.pdf

Since that time (10 months), have you conducted and presented any
experiment which would support your claim that a simple electrolysis process
which results in H and O release is over unity, once the H and O
are then burned ?

Have you learned anything in those 10 months, from this topic?
If  so, what and will you share that with us ?

I for one, do not believe that you, your self, think this claim is O.U...

   floor

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: A SIMPLE ELECTRIC HEATER, WHICH HAS EFFICIENCY GREATER THAN 1
« Reply #362 on: November 22, 2020, 07:05:56 PM »
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Offline George1

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Re: A SIMPLE ELECTRIC HEATER, WHICH HAS EFFICIENCY GREATER THAN 1
« Reply #363 on: November 23, 2020, 01:11:33 PM »
To kolbacict, to floor and to the other members of this forum, who are interested in the topic.
===============================
And here is one more mental exercise for entertainment only. :)
------------------------------------------------------
1) An unknown load is hidden inside a black box 1. The load is connected to a standard DC source thus forming a circuit. This circuit is equipped with (a) a voltmeter, (b) an ammeter, (c) an ohmmeter and (d) a watt-meter, which register 4VDC, 4 A, 1 Ohm and 16 Watts, respectively.
------------------------------------------------------
2) Another unknown load is hidden inside a black box 2. The load is connected to a standard DC source thus forming a circuit. This circuit is equipped with (a) a voltmeter, (b) an ammeter, (c) an ohmmeter and (d) a watt-meter, which register 4VDC, 4 A, 1 Ohm and 16 Watts, respectively.
------------------------------------------------------
3) One of the unknown loads is the copper wire and the other unknown load is the PEM electrolyzer. (Please refer to our previous posts.) But you don't know in which black box is hidden the copper wire and in which black box is hidden the PEM electrolyzer, respectively.
------------------------------------------------------
4) Long before the above described measuring procedures we have checked and we have ascertained the fact that the PEM electrolyzer's operating characteristics (please refer to our previous posts) correspond to reality, that is, the PEM electrolyzer's manufacturer has done the job correctly.
------------------------------------------------------
5) Because of some emergency situation in an explosives manufacturing factory for example you have not at your disposal (or you are not allowed to use) any supplementary measuring devices like calorimeters, gas detectors/analyzers, infrared radiation detectors/analyzers, etc. You have at your disposal solely and only voltmeters, ammeters, ohmmeters and watt-meters. Besides you are not allowed to open/brеак any of the two black boxes too.
------------------------------------------------------
QUESTION: In which black box is hidden the copper wire? In black box 1 or in black box 2? (You have to guess because otherwise you have to run very quickly :) in order to avoid meeting with a possible unpleasant accident. Or perhaps it would be much better if you run quickly at once :) without doing any measurements and without trying to guess in which black box is hidden the copper wire?)
-----------------------------------------------------
Looking forward to your answer.
==============================
P. S. If my sense of humour and my attempt to be amusing seem inadequate (more or less) to some members of this forum, then please excuse me. I am ready to apologize. But the question remains: In which black box is hidden the copper wire? In black box 1 or in black box 2? Can you guess this riddle by using solely and only voltmeters, ammeters, ohmmeters and watt-meters?
 

Offline George1

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Re: A SIMPLE ELECTRIC HEATER, WHICH HAS EFFICIENCY GREATER THAN 1
« Reply #364 on: November 24, 2020, 10:12:16 AM »
In which black box is hidden the copper wire? In black box 1 or in black box 2? (Using only voltmeters, ammeters, ohmmeters and watt-meters.)

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: A SIMPLE ELECTRIC HEATER, WHICH HAS EFFICIENCY GREATER THAN 1
« Reply #364 on: November 24, 2020, 10:12:16 AM »
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Offline kolbacict

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Re: A SIMPLE ELECTRIC HEATER, WHICH HAS EFFICIENCY GREATER THAN 1
« Reply #365 on: November 24, 2020, 12:44:14 PM »
By how the current changes during these 1000 seconds. In the case of copper wire, it will hardly change.  :)

Offline George1

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Re: A SIMPLE ELECTRIC HEATER, WHICH HAS EFFICIENCY GREATER THAN 1
« Reply #366 on: November 24, 2020, 01:55:45 PM »
To kolbacict.
--------------------------
Good question! And here is the answer. Actually two answers.
1) Regularly cooling down the electrolyzer by some cooling agent, which can be for example the water used in your hot-water heating system.
2) The period of time is not necessary to be equal to 1000 seconds. The period of time could be equal to 100 seconds, 10 seconds or even 1 second. The electrlyte's Ohmic resistance will not change and will remain practically constant within a period of 10 seconds for example. 

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: A SIMPLE ELECTRIC HEATER, WHICH HAS EFFICIENCY GREATER THAN 1
« Reply #366 on: November 24, 2020, 01:55:45 PM »
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Offline George1

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Re: A SIMPLE ELECTRIC HEATER, WHICH HAS EFFICIENCY GREATER THAN 1
« Reply #367 on: November 24, 2020, 02:07:08 PM »
Let us focus again on pure theory. 
---------------------------------------
Please have a look again at our post of October 31, 2020, 10:07:39 AM. For your convenience I am giving below the text of this post. (The text is surrounded/limited up and down by double dashed lines.)
===============================
Here is a continuation/variation of our previous post of October 18, 2020, 05:28:00. (Please look at besslerwheel.com/forum. Almost the same text in the related topic of the same title.)
------------------------------------------------------
1) Let us assume again that the energy consumed by the standard water-splitting electrolyzer is just equal to the sum of (a) the Joule's heat and (b) the heat, generated by the burning/exploding of the released hydrogen. Therefore we can write down the equality
V x I x t = (I x I x R x t) + (Z x I x t x (HHV)) (1)
where
V = DC source voltage
I = DC current
R = Ohmic resistance
t = time
Z = electrochemical equivalent of hydrogen
HHV = higher heating value of hydrogen
------------------------------------------------------
2) Let us decrease n times voltage V, that is,
V x I x t = (I x I x R x t) + (Z x I x t x (HHV)) (1) <=>
<=> (V/n) x (I/n) x t < ((I/n) x (I/n) x R x t) + (Z x (I/n) x t x (HHV)) (2)
where
n > 1
R = const.; for how to keep R constant please refer for example to our post of July 04, 2020, 01:38:09.
-------------------------------------------------------
3) Now let us increase n times voltage V, that is,
V x I x t = (I x I x R x t) + (Z x I x t x (HHV)) (1) <=>
<=> (nV) x (nI) x t > ((nI) x (nI) x R x t) + (Z x (nI) x t x (HHV)) (3)
where
n > 1
R = const.; for how to keep R constant please refer for example to our post of July 04, 2020, 01:38:09.
--------------------------------------------------------
4) In one word, it is evident that:
a) equality (1) shows that efficiency is equal to 1;
b) inequality (2) shows that efficiency is bigger than 1;
c) inequality (3) shows that efficiency is smaller than 1.
---------------------------------------------------------
5) Therefore by regulating the value of V we can regulate and control the value of efficiency. In other words, efficiency can be either (a) bigger than 1 or (b) equal to 1 or (c) smaller than 1. And this depends on the value of V.
---------------------------------------------------------
6) let us remind again that in order to be more precise we have to use V - v instead of V and I - i instead of I, respectively. (For v and i please refer to our previous post of October 18, 2020, 05:28:00.) But if V (and V/n too!) is much bigger than v (and I (and I/n too!) much bigger than i, respectively), then v and i can be neglected and therefore (1), (2) and (3) are perfectly correct.
----------------------------------------------------------
7) In one word, we proved theoretically again that the law of conservation of energy is not always valid for any standard DC water-splitting electrolysis process.
---------------------------------------------------------
Do you have any theoretical (ONLY THEORETICAL!) objections against the text above? Is there any formula/logical construction in the text above which is incorrect and if yes, then why? Please focus solely and only on the analysis (line by line) of the text above.
================================
Looking forward to your answer.
George1
Looking forward to your answer.
George1

Offline George1

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Re: A SIMPLE ELECTRIC HEATER, WHICH HAS EFFICIENCY GREATER THAN 1
« Reply #368 on: November 27, 2020, 10:17:39 AM »
A hot discussion occurs in besslerwheel.com/forum. The title of the topic is just the same.
I am giving below again the text of our last post of October 18, 2020, 08:15:09 PM. The post's text is surrounded/limited up and down by double dashed lines.
====================
Let us assume that the energy consumed by the standard water-splitting electrolyzer is just equal to the sum of (a) the Joule's heat and (b) the heat, generated by the burning/exploding of the released hydrogen. Therefore we can write down the equality
V x I x t = (I x I x R x t) + (Z x I x t x (HHV)) (1)
where
V = DC source voltage
I = DC current
R = Ohmic resistance
t = time
Z = electrochemical equivalent of hydrogen
HHV = higher heating value of hydrogen
Therefore we can write down the inequalities
V x I x t > I x I x R x t (2) <=> V > I x R (3) <=> V/R > I (4).
-----------------------
The last inequality (4) unambiguously shows that Ohm's law is not valid for liquid resistors.
----------------------
The above considerations are not very precise however. In order to be precise enough we have to introduce the quantities v an i. In other words, we must write down the equality
(V - v) x (I - i) x t = ((I - i) x (I - i) x R x t)+(Z x (I - i) x t x (HHV)) (5)
where
V = DC source voltage
I = DC current
R = Ohmic resistance
t = time
Z = electrochemical equivalent of hydrogen
HHV = higher heating value of hydrogen
v = minimum voltage necessary for the water-splitting electrolysis to begin
i = the related small decreasing of current I, caused by the presence of v.
And from here we can write down the inequalities
(V - v) x (I - i) x t > (I - i) x (I - i) x R x t (6) <=>
<=> V - v > (I -i) x R (7) <=> (V - v)/R > I - i (8).
-----------------------------------------
The last inequality (8) shows again that Ohm's law is not valid for liquid resistors.
------------------------------------------
It is evident that if V is much bigger than v (and I much bigger than i, respectively), then v and i can be neglected and in this case inequality (8) can be replaced with inequality (4).
In one word, if equalities (1) and (5) are valid, then inequalities (4) and (8) are valid too. But this means that Ohm's law is not valid for liquid resistors.
----------------------------------------
Ohm's law is the most basic and most fundamental axiom of electric engineering. No Ohm's law -- no electric engineering.
==============================
Looking forward to your answer.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: A SIMPLE ELECTRIC HEATER, WHICH HAS EFFICIENCY GREATER THAN 1
« Reply #368 on: November 27, 2020, 10:17:39 AM »
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Offline George1

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Re: A SIMPLE ELECTRIC HEATER, WHICH HAS EFFICIENCY GREATER THAN 1
« Reply #369 on: November 27, 2020, 10:19:30 AM »
Number eight in brackets is replaced by some stupid head with black spectacles. Some error of the system.

Offline George1

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Re: A SIMPLE ELECTRIC HEATER, WHICH HAS EFFICIENCY GREATER THAN 1
« Reply #370 on: November 27, 2020, 03:52:25 PM »
Here is a copy (surrounded/limited up and down by double dashed lines) of my last post in besslerwheel.com/forum. The same topic, the same title.
============================
Let me explain again simple obviuos things. You are not reading carefully and thoroughly my posts and that's why you are distorting (either deliberately or not) my words.
-------------------------------------
1) V x I x t = (I x I x R x t) + (Z x I x t x (HHV)) (1). This is the law of conservation of energy. Do you accept the validity of this item 1? YES OR NO?
--------------------------------------
2) V = I x R (2). This is the Ohm's law. Do you accept the validity of this item 2? YES OR NO?
--------------------------------------
3) If equality (1) is correct, then the inequalty V x I x t > (I x I x R x t) (3) must be correct too. Do you accept the validity of this item 3? YES OR NO?
-------------------------------------
4) If we divide both sides of inequality (3) by (I x t), then we will get the inequality V > I x R (4). The latter is a severe violation of the Ohm's law and that is why it cannot be true. Do you accept the validity of this item 4? YES OR NO?
------------------------------------
5) Inequality (4) is directly related to (directly follows from) equality (1) and as inequality (4) cannot be true, then equality (1) cannot be true either. Do you accept the validity of this item 5? YES OR NO?
------------------------------------
You have to answer the question "YES OR NO?" five times.
------------------------------------
I am really shocked that I have to explain the basic axioms of electric engineering to people who pretend to be qualified. Tragedy!
=================================

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: A SIMPLE ELECTRIC HEATER, WHICH HAS EFFICIENCY GREATER THAN 1
« Reply #370 on: November 27, 2020, 03:52:25 PM »
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Offline Floor

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Re: A SIMPLE ELECTRIC HEATER, WHICH HAS EFFICIENCY GREATER THAN 1
« Reply #371 on: November 27, 2020, 09:07:40 PM »
Hello George 1

You started this topic on 01/28/19. 

   Here is your original statement / claim / bait.

https://mypicxbg.files.wordpress.com/2019/01/pages_1-6.pdf

Since that time (10 months), have you conducted and presented any
experiment which would support your claim that a simple electrolysis process
which results in H and O release is over unity, once the H and O
are then burned ?

Have you learned anything in those 10 months, from this topic?
If  so, what and will you share that with us ?

I for one, do not believe that you, your self, think this claim is O.U...

   floor

Offline Floor

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  • Posts: 1467
Re: A SIMPLE ELECTRIC HEATER, WHICH HAS EFFICIENCY GREATER THAN 1
« Reply #372 on: November 27, 2020, 09:38:22 PM »
E / I x R,  but I x E = power as watts.

Ohms law applies to the transformation of amperage to heat (P = I x E)

Only in a theoretical PURELY resistive circuit is ALL of the electric energy transformed into heat.

If an electric circuit has a large magnetic component doing mechanical work (like a coil in a motor),
electric energy which would otherwise, have been transformed into heat, will be instead transformed into a magnetic force doing mechanical work.

quote from George1
"Ohm's law is not valid for liquid resistors"
end

Ohm's law IS valid for liquid resistors....
                but...
in a liquid resistor, where in, electrolysis also occurs, some of the input
electrical energy is used to cause the water splitting.  This is aside from
the electrical energy causing heat.

  best wishes
      floor

 

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