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Author Topic: Energy from the Ground - Self powered generator by Barbosa and Leal  (Read 1413631 times)

Offline ramset

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Re: Energy from the Ground - Self powered generator by Barbosa and Leal
« Reply #1800 on: April 25, 2015, 07:21:51 PM »
Speaking of Zero Milehigh.
that's about how much experience you have looking for ways to harvest energy from
the ground.

My money is on the experimenters finding something long before the fellows that don't even look.

Gotta Go do some more work [ME]

here is more from dragon answering a query from Mr. Aking at Energetic on his
High Amp from the ground experiments /experience .

A King asks this question  Do you have a full circuit digram for this part [your claim /experience posted below in Quote:
Dragon
Quote
I became interested in the B&L device primarily because I was looking for a current source, the basics of this is current. I wound up a toroid and with a little experimentation I found I could generate 400 amps with a mere 15 watt input - beautiful - with some nichrome strands I should be able to heat water with very little energy. I noticed something else from this... I wrapped a coil of 1/0 cable around an 8" PVC form to reduce the draw on the primary of the torroid which dropped the input down to 8 watts, still providing the overall 400 amp/T ratio when I noticed a ceramic magnet more than 6 ft away chattering bringing it close to the coil was amazing - that shouts motor drive quite loudly to me. No magic just plain logic and truth.
Thanks for sharing.


 
end Quote:

Dragon's reply to Kings query  ?? .. Do you have a full circuit digram for this part:
Thanks for sharing.

dragon Answers and adds schematic below.
Quote
I haven't built the NiChrome drum to fully test the idea of heating water, only small tests with a 200 watt bulb for heat output - tested but not confirmed. The other is the diagram for the magnetic field. This actually opened a door for some interesting ideas as solutions to some previous projects that have stumped me for some time now... 
end quote

**original post number 342 here
http://www.energeticforum.com/renewable-energy/20091-barbosa-leal-devices-info-replication-details-12.html

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy


Online Grumage

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Re: Energy from the Ground - Self powered generator by Barbosa and Leal
« Reply #1801 on: April 25, 2015, 07:46:44 PM »
Dear MileHigh.

You have me perplexed. The term impedance, surely you should be asking resistance ? The term Impedance is better related to AC circuits.
Batteries have internal resistance, this is what limits their rate of output.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrical_impedance

I already provided the figures for my particular experiment. At 20 vdc we had a current of 0.07 A, which by ohms law gives a value of 285.7 ohms.

I also have to differ with you as regards Bedini motors. My successful Bedini Cole window motor ran continuously on the same single battery for 3 months. The battery in question was a nearly " Knackered " Yuasa 12 V 7 ah Gel cell. It never lost a millivolt, stayed at 8.6 V continuous!! For me though, it did not serve any useful purpose other than to rotate. There was no free lunch !!  :)

Cheers Grum.

Offline TinselKoala

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Re: Energy from the Ground - Self powered generator by Barbosa and Leal
« Reply #1802 on: April 25, 2015, 08:17:19 PM »
Most people who post on these forums actually do not do experiments, they merely do _demonstrations_ which do not have the elements that are required for a True Experiment, and hence they cannot assign or determine causal relationships amongst the variables in the system.

A True Experiment tests an hypothesis. An hypothesis is essentially an "If-then" statement about relationships between variables or qualities of a system. These variables or qualities must be "operationalized" which means stating them in a form that is _quantitative_ and amenable to measurement. Once an hypothesis is formed and the system's variables and quantities/qualities have been operationalized, then it's time to go to actual work. The experimenter varies one or more Independent Variables and looks for changes in one or more Dependent Variables, while controlling for, keeping constant or otherwise eliminating or accounting for "third variables" that could possibly also affect the Dependent Variables that are the outcome measures of the experiment.

Note that there are some technical terms with precise meanings in the above:

True Experiment
Hypothesis
Operationalization of Variables
Independent Variable
Dependent Variable
Control Experiment
Third Variables

I am not making this stuff up. Look up the terms above in your favorite scientific encyclopedia or on the internet.

As I have said, it's rare to see True Experiments being performed on this and some other forums. Hence it is rare to see anything that can actually say "This causes that" with scientific rigour.



And let's please remember Ohm's Law, which hasn't yet been repealed. 1/0 solid copper wire has a resistance of 0.09827 milliOhms per foot.
http://www.engineersedge.com/copper_wire.htm
So, say, 20 feet of it would have a resistance of about 2 milliOhms. At 400 amps of real current, the power dissipated in the wire itself would be I2R = 400 x 400 x 0.002 = about 320 Watts. And the claim is being made that this can be done with only 15 watts (or even 8 watts) of input power to the system.

Forget about Clarence and B&L, because Dragon has got everybody beat with his system that can do this!



The photo below demonstrates what just 10 Amps RMS current does when sent through some 5mm Nichrome ribbon. A True Experiment would compare this result with what happens when I send 400 Amps RMS through the same ribbon. Would anyone like to predict or guess at what the result would be?

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Energy from the Ground - Self powered generator by Barbosa and Leal
« Reply #1802 on: April 25, 2015, 08:17:19 PM »
Sponsored links:




Offline TinselKoala

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Re: Energy from the Ground - Self powered generator by Barbosa and Leal
« Reply #1803 on: April 25, 2015, 08:20:59 PM »
@Grum:

You may find this page of interest:

http://lygte-info.dk/info/Internal%20impedance%20UK.html

Also, as you must surely know, the open-circuit or lightly loaded terminal voltage of a battery is _not_ a good indicator of the state of charge of the battery. It's too bad you didn't perform a real load-test of your Bedini battery, before and after running the motor (A True Experiment, instead of just a demonstration.)

Offline MileHigh

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Re: Energy from the Ground - Self powered generator by Barbosa and Leal
« Reply #1804 on: April 25, 2015, 08:44:44 PM »
Grum:

I am not going to look at TK's link because I am over tired.

Here is my take on it for you:  Yes the term impedance is associated with AC circuits and impedance changes with frequency.

"Resistance" tends to imply something that is fixed.  However, the output resistance of a battery changes as the battery discharges and is a dynamic entity.  Hence, people drifted towards the term "output impedance" for a battery as opposed to "output resistance" because of the dynamic nature of the entity.

Certainly output impedance changes as a battery becomes discharged.  For all I know (never tested) the output impedance even changes depending on how much the battery is loaded.   Also, if the battery is heavily loaded and starts to heat up inside, the output impedance will change because of that.

So I am guessing the dynamic nature of the variable made people drift towards "impedance" instead of "resistance."

If you were a battery keener, one can assume that different battery sizes and different battery chemistries will have unique "signature" output impedances.

Also, if you know the output impedance of a battery, and you model it as a simple resistor, then for a given current flow, you have a handle on how much power is being burnt off inside the battery as it drives a certain load.

What people around here always seem to forget (especially in the various cockamamie 'one battery backwards in the circuit to charge' configurations) is that when you are discharging a battery, and when you are charging a battery, energy is always being lost in the battery itself.

Finally, for all I know, I will guess that for a given battery type, the discharging impedance, and the battery charging impedance are not necessarily the same.  Perhaps seeing an increase in the charging impedance of a battery is an indicator that the battery is getting old and less functional.

There are a lot of battery-type experiments on the forums, and this is never discussed.  One more time, that trumps A.King21's comments about experiments reigning supreme.

For the types of experiments done around here, battery impedance may be a very useful parameter to get to know.   And the majority of the experimenters just measure loaded and unloaded voltage.   I am just winging this whole discussion in this posting.  All that one has to do is spend a few nights researching and then doing your own bench tests to get a feel for this stuff and you will know way more than me.

MileHigh

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Energy from the Ground - Self powered generator by Barbosa and Leal
« Reply #1804 on: April 25, 2015, 08:44:44 PM »
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Offline MileHigh

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Re: Energy from the Ground - Self powered generator by Barbosa and Leal
« Reply #1805 on: April 25, 2015, 08:51:43 PM »
Quote
I also have to differ with you as regards Bedini motors. My successful Bedini Cole window motor ran continuously on the same single battery for 3 months. The battery in question was a nearly " Knackered " Yuasa 12 V 7 ah Gel cell. It never lost a millivolt, stayed at 8.6 V continuous!! For me though, it did not serve any useful purpose other than to rotate. There was no free lunch !!

It all depends on how far you want to take it Grum.  It looks to me like you did not make a precise measurement of the average power consumption of the motor.  There are resources out there that will tell you how to do that.

One can assume that nothing remarkable took place.  An old battery can run a motor a very long time as long as the average power consumption is very low.  As TK stated, you did more of a "demonstration" as opposed to an "experiment."

If you had measured the average power consumption you would have been in a position to make a good estimate of how much energy the motor consumed over the course of three months, and then compared that with the ampere-hour rating of the battery.  Also, if you know batteries, factoring in the output impedance, the lower the load on the battery, the more energy you can extract from the battery.  So using the simplistic stated ampere-hour rating on the spec sheet would be not enough.  If there are "deeper specs" for the battery they may tell you the ampere-hour rating vs. load.

MileHigh

Online Grumage

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Re: Energy from the Ground - Self powered generator by Barbosa and Leal
« Reply #1806 on: April 25, 2015, 08:54:12 PM »
@Grum:

You may find this page of interest:

http://lygte-info.dk/info/Internal%20impedance%20UK.html

Also, as you must surely know, the open-circuit or lightly loaded terminal voltage of a battery is _not_ a good indicator of the state of charge of the battery. It's too bad you didn't perform a real load-test of your Bedini battery, before and after running the motor (A True Experiment, instead of just a demonstration.)

@  TinselKoala.

Fully aware, thank you.

Grumage.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Energy from the Ground - Self powered generator by Barbosa and Leal
« Reply #1806 on: April 25, 2015, 08:54:12 PM »
Sponsored links:




Offline MileHigh

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Re: Energy from the Ground - Self powered generator by Barbosa and Leal
« Reply #1807 on: April 25, 2015, 09:03:29 PM »
Quote
I already provided the figures for my particular experiment. At 20 vdc we had a current of 0.07 A, which by ohms law gives a value of 285.7 ohms.

I think you are mixing apples and oranges here.  That indeed was the measurement of the resistance between your two grounding rods.  We are discussing issues pertaining to the output impedance of a given battery.

Offline ramset

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Re: Energy from the Ground - Self powered generator by Barbosa and Leal
« Reply #1808 on: April 25, 2015, 09:03:40 PM »
Nap Time...... 8)

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Energy from the Ground - Self powered generator by Barbosa and Leal
« Reply #1808 on: April 25, 2015, 09:03:40 PM »
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Online Grumage

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Re: Energy from the Ground - Self powered generator by Barbosa and Leal
« Reply #1809 on: April 25, 2015, 09:13:31 PM »
Oh Dear Lord.

I give up. I shall leave you in peace.

Good luck everyone.

Offline ramset

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Re: Energy from the Ground - Self powered generator by Barbosa and Leal
« Reply #1810 on: April 25, 2015, 09:14:09 PM »
Does anybody have any suggestions on a signal generator that can do what this one does
[or better]
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Rigol-DG4102-Signal-Arbitrary-Waveform-Generator-AWG-100MHz-2Channel-LCD-Display-/201081553596
the above is a bit over present budget.
used or otherwise?
all suggestions welcome [it would be going to  the UK]

thanks

Chet K

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Energy from the Ground - Self powered generator by Barbosa and Leal
« Reply #1810 on: April 25, 2015, 09:14:09 PM »
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Offline MileHigh

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Re: Energy from the Ground - Self powered generator by Barbosa and Leal
« Reply #1811 on: April 25, 2015, 09:14:28 PM »
Nap Time...... 8)

Yeah, tell Cangas Khan that I am going into my evil underground lair for bad guys to get my beauty sleep.

Offline TinselKoala

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Re: Energy from the Ground - Self powered generator by Barbosa and Leal
« Reply #1812 on: April 25, 2015, 09:37:23 PM »
While Dragon has surprised me by posting even that much, it should be clear that the circuit diagram above is _not_ complete. There is no indication of the turn count on the "primary" of the toroid. Nothing about toroid material. Nothing is indicated about the _input_ to the inverter, the inverter type (make and model), or how the input and output power measurements were done.

One of the basic requirements of the scientific reporting of "experiments" or even patent applications is that the information should enable someone "skilled in the art" to reproduce the experiment or device and (potentially, no pun intended) to get the same results as claimed. There isn't enough information in Dragon's diagram to do that.

I'd like to know the make and model of the inverter. Is it possible that the measurements are of _reactive power_ circulating in the output loop? 

Offline TinselKoala

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Re: Energy from the Ground - Self powered generator by Barbosa and Leal
« Reply #1813 on: April 25, 2015, 09:40:27 PM »
Does anybody have any suggestions on a signal generator that can do what this one does
[or better]
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Rigol-DG4102-Signal-Arbitrary-Waveform-Generator-AWG-100MHz-2Channel-LCD-Display-/201081553596
the above is a bit over present budget.
used or otherwise?
all suggestions welcome [it would be going to  the UK]

thanks

Chet K
Any function generator capable of over 20MHz output will be similarly pricey. For a 100MHz 2-channel AWG this is actually surprisingly cheap.


Offline ramset

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Re: Energy from the Ground - Self powered generator by Barbosa and Leal
« Reply #1814 on: April 25, 2015, 10:07:37 PM »
Tinsel
Yes the newer models that can be hacked and do Sooo much more are leaving tonnes of
used units on Ebay for much less money.

I just can't pic a winner so easily ...

 

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