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Hi Clarence,

Here are some suggestions I have in helping you tune up your system.

(1) You say your circuit: "It works with batteries but doesn't work closed loop"
This is not correct because closed loop means: "contains suffient electrical storage
capacity to overide any loop instability". Your batteries provide this but you need
additional storage when the batteries are not present, so what you should
do is provide a supercapacitor always on the circuit between your inverter
and your 12VDC power supply. A 16Vdc supercapacitor would be available
at an automobile audio shop where they install high power 1KW audio amplifiers into
car audio systems. The supercapacitor has much more capacity then the electrolytics
in the powersupply but much less capacity then the batteries have.

(2) I would recommend a 120VAC Variac Variable autotransformer before your 12VDC power
supply so you can adjust the input voltage to the power supply up or down. This will allow
allow you to manually tune the system to optimal voltage levels and give yourself more
running margin.

Variac looks like  this, the red device in this farmhand picture from post #527:

http://overunity.com/13721/energy-from-the-ground-self-powered-generator-by-barbosa-and-leal/dlattach/attach/135206/

Farmhand's variac is 240VAC you may want a 120Vac Variac for your system.


(3) A second variac could be used as a power spliter where you divide the total systems
power between two different AC pathways. The second pathway might be used to power
a second 12VDC supply to run a grid intertie inverter. Variac transformers because of the
way they are wired do not provide galvanic isolation. But you could purchase a 1:1 120VAC
input 120VAC output turns ratio transformer of adquate Kvar rating to ground isolate the
second pathway so the grid intertie inverter would have it's own seperate ground system
in the intertie (shouldn't influence other parts of the circuit).

Thus, it would really be sweet to see extra power actually going out to the grid from your
ground tuned up system. You would manualy set the second Variac just high enough so that
the supercapacitor voltage isn't discharging.

---

In effect your system would be a rather rare example of a self running system ouputting
all extra power to the grid, sort of independent of where the energy comes from. Once
started by batteries they are switched off and don't contribute to system energy.

Good Luck!

:S:MarkSCoffman

Clarence:

Hello mscoffman,

I know what closed loop IS and what it isnt!
what I said was that the system would not work CLOSED LOOP because the Tripp Lite power supply
which was supposed to be getting FULL voltage to it to make it operate properly was not happening!!!
The lack of FULL voltage was due to the GROUND GRID RETURN not supplying its leg of full voltage as this system is supposed to do.
the rest of the information was meant to convey the the fact that I could operate the TRIPP Lite power supply separate from the system
by means of my mains household voltage and doing this then in conjunction with the -  battery array - inverter - toroids - as an
open ended system to be able to operate everything and test the system to see what was happening and or not happening!
when I get the Ground supply problem solved then I will go back to configuiring it as a closed loop again

I do know what a variac is and I have the same RED type unit and have been using it for years.

I also know Member Farmhand as I was and still am a member of the ENERGETIC FORUM for many years working on Don Smith devices.

I do appreciate your thoughts and considerations and I appreciate also the information on the source for the super capacitors!
I am going to continue with this B&L build exactly as it was stated and shown in the patent info and their demos if it doesnt stay close
to their device then I wont persue it farther.

@ Spokane1 ,
 thanks for the offer!

Clarence

Clarence,

The devices in the main loop of these systems always seem to be under a kind of stability stress they
don't experience when plugged into utility networks. Utility networks are very fast and very "stiff"
because of the way the are backed. DC to AC inverters are not so stiff. So devices used here need a
little more hold up time. But not necessarily 7Ah worth.

Ultimately the incandescent bulb will need to be removed from the circuit because it is wasting power
that should be made available to the user purposes. The variac can be helpful at doing so initially. Of course
all the variacs will be removed eventually and be replaced by fixed resources.

I was just hoping you don't let inherent circuit instability put you off when you come this far. The circuit
looks very interesting.

:S:MarkSCoffman

@Clarence Can you make some measurements (AC V&A in VS AC V&A); I tested your system, but the voltage on the battery is getting lower... Tested with a sine wave 300W inverter, and NO LOAD. Discovered something interesting about it: If you put a 20uF in parallel with the INPUT you can light the bulb between the two grounds(Neutral, ground)


P.S. I didn't use thickness of the cables, the windings of transformers, and just 2 grounds...Maybe this is the fault?....


Cheers,
Adrian

Clarence:

Hello xhacks,

Glad to meet you. I can make measurements on my device for you sure - however
I didn't understand what you meant in your reference about taking voltage and amperage
measurements on YOUR unit.
on your unit you need to understand that the INVERTER unit itself IS A LOAD and that is why
your battery voltage gradually drops!

Also the part about the BATT - INVERTOR -  PHASE - CAPACITOR - NEUTRAL - BULB - GROUND (open loop) is
nothing new at ALL and the bulb is also a LOAD!!!  another reason why the battery voltage slowly falls!

If you REALLY want to use that little small inverter system ( Please note that statement is NOT in ANY way
meant to be derogatory!)  to A GREAT advantage you can get all of this information from an old DON SMITH
patent device if you will just go to your computer search engine and type in this wording : DON SMITH 2006 TESLA TECH .
after you pull it up (a you tube video from way back) scroll almost to the end and you will see him use a car battery which
he uses to power a hand held 28 WATT power zapper touched to a PLATE CAPACITOR that some one holds a GROUND WIRE
to which he states goes out side to large sized GROUND PLATE that was used for the seminar. He then explains
that the GROUND WIRE can be CUT and a LOAD placed between the two ends of the ground wire!!!
I also remember that He operated up to 2KW LOADS on this type of circuit. follows after Don's motto of KISS!
KEEP IT SIMPLE STUPID.

Use your inverter to power a similar low watt hand held high frequency zapper and then use a small amount of
the load area output to feed back and keep your battery charged and your home free.
BTW: there are a lot more of these little trinkets floating around in the cloud data system that the world doesn't know are out there.

thanks and CHEERS,

Clarence

Clarence:  Do you mean like this?

Clarence, a.king21:
I'll try to keep this fairly short, since this is drifting off topic.
I am not trying to put down Don Smith in any way, but I have tested a fair bit with some of the things Don Smith
has talked about or shown, and I have found in my tests that things do not end up working like Don Smith describes it.

Regarding his capacitor plates driven by a high voltage AC driver, the first thing most people will probably notice is that
capacitors are used all over the place in AC circuits and they of course most certainly do draw energy from the driving device.
Don's premise seems to be that since you are drawing an arc from the HV driver to Earth ground, and Earth ground is
isolated from the HV driver (in the 2006 demo he used a battery powered power source for the HV driver), that no energy is
being drawn from the HV driver when the second capacitor plate is arcing to Earth ground. However, in my tests where I monitor
the input current to my HV driver from a 12V battery, the input current to the HV driver increases from about 350mA at idle to
about 420mA to 450mA or more when arcing to either Earth ground or even just to a completely insulated screwdriver tip.
This shows that any arcing (even to the insulated screwdriver tip) is drawing its energy from the HV power source to
cause the arcing.

With Don Smith's stuff it seems that it comes down to Don Smith either leaving out key info which you would need to
make his stuff work, or he was just plain wrong about certain things. Maybe Don Smith's use of an aluminum plate and a
copper plate makes some sort of difference, as I just tested with a normal HV pulse capacitor. It is probably worth a test
to see if there is any difference at all however. Also, in my tests, the voltage waveform on the Earth ground side
of the setup is identical to the voltage on the HV driving side, i.e.; if you are using a sine wave in, then you will see
a sine wave on the output ground discharge side as well. That's what I saw in my own testing anyway. If there is a way to get that 
sort of setup to pull in extra energy from the ambient to power a load without drawing its energy from the HV power source,
I personally haven't figured it out (yet) anyway. I am still experimenting away... Anyone can experiment for them self to see
if they can get different results, but make sure you know what you are doing first when experimenting with high voltage.
Good luck with the experimenting.
All the best...

Hi Clarence. I have been following along on your B&L experiments. You are doing a great job mate!
Appreciate the schematic and photos you posted, as it allowed me to get a much clearer idea of what you are doing.
I am patiently waiting to see if you see any improvement once you add your improved ground rod grid.
All the best...

Thanks for the update Clarence. Sorry to hear about your power supply. These sort of
experiments we do here can be very hard on electronics! I blown more than my share of components
and equipment over the years.   Your ground rod expansion sounds like a pretty big job. Hope you
can get a farmhand or two to help you.
All the best...