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Author Topic: 'Core Rearrangement' - 'Fin Motor' - Open Tech - OU?  (Read 19940 times)

Offline gyulasun

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Re: 'Core Rearrangement' - 'Fin Motor' - Open Tech - OU?
« Reply #15 on: August 13, 2013, 12:02:49 AM »
Hi Tim,

Just curious on the permeability of your chosen core for your decent sized coil? Because with the sizes you wrote, inductance comes between 4 to 5 mH (from a wire OD of say 3mm) for such air core coil.

Now on your question: "What am I missing?"

Well, when you make a parallel resonant tank circuit (10 H, 10 uF at 16 Hz) it will certainly have an impedance maximum at 16 Hz and you can calculate it by assuming a certain loaded Q for the tank. Say the loaded Q would be only 10, so the resonant AC impedance would be Z=Q*XL i.e. 10*2*Pi*16Hz*10H=10048 Ohm cca 10 kOhm.  If the loaded Q were only 1 (very unlikely, surely higher in practice), then Z=1 kOhm.

Now if you pulse this tank circuit at its resonant 16 Hz frequency and say the rotor would be already spinning at 1000 RPM, the input current would depend on this estimated 1 to 10 kOm impedance AND on your SS relay ON time of course, so if you adjust your supply voltage to say 14V DC, then in the moments of ON time the peak current draw would be 14V/1 kOm=14 mA and average current would be less.
When you feed this tank circuit from a pure 16 Hz sinusoid AC source, the rms AC current draw would be about 0.7*14 mA or less when Q=10.

Of course the current inside the tank circuit would be Q times that of the input current, as usual for parallel LC tanks. Say your loaded Q is 100, and input current would be 10 mA, then the current via the coil or via the capacitor would be 1 Amper.
If you attempt to make an impedance matching between your LC tank and the AC input source, by using either a tap on the coil or using a coupling coil, then your loaded Q could be increased perhaps indeed towards the 100.

You can estimate your unloaded Q for the LC tank by considering the DC resistance of the coil and its inductive reactance at 16 Hz: Q=XL/r i.e. roughly 1000/0.3 or so but this is surely lowered by the actual core eddy current and hysteresis losses to maybe a Q of some hundred in practice. Say Q=300 remains with the core inside the coil, this gives a huge AC impedance at resonance of course and you wish to transform the AC input source impedance to be as high as this huge impedance to get a match and highest power transfer. This match would decrease the Q=300 down to 150 or so, this would mean that to have your 14 Amper current via the coil, your input current should be roughly 14/150=94 mA... 
This sounds very favorable but it all depends on the real Q with the core and correct impedance matching and then you have to feed the down-transformed loaded tank impedance with the initial 48 W input. This may involve further losses due to the lower input impedance.

One more thing you have not indicated yet to consider: this 14 Amper current may influence and toss the core towards magnetic saturation and this means that its calculated 10 Henry inductance may get reduced significantly, causing the resonant frequency of the tank to increase. Should it decrease to say 3 Henry, the frequency would go up to 29 Hz from the 16 Hz.

There still be some other issues I am not aware of yet...  ::)

You may learn on matching LC tank to a H bridge switch and some other useful hints here: http://www.richieburnett.co.uk/indheat.html  and a possible frequency control circuit (PLL= phased lock loop) which is able to follow the change in the tank resonant frequency here:
http://uzzors2k.4hv.org/index.php?page=ihpll1   Unfortunately this must be adopted to your 16-30 Hz or whatever range because it is shown working in the 70-120 kHz frequency range. Maybe such frequency tracking precision circuit is not yet needed for your prototype though.
This link may also be useful in general: http://www.allaboutcircuits.com/vol_2/chpt_6/5.html

Greetings
Gyula

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Offline tim123

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Re: 'Core Rearrangement' - 'Fin Motor' - Open Tech - OU?
« Reply #16 on: August 13, 2013, 08:16:23 PM »
Hi Gyula,
  thank you for that. :)
So that's what Q means? Wow, cool. At the moment, I just don't get most of what you said, but I'm going to add all this to my coil-calculator program, and learn it. It might take a few weeks... The inductance of the example coil at 10 Henries - was with a core half-filled with iron - as that's more or less the proportion it'll be with the rotor & stator parts.

In the meantime, this is an update for the fin-motor idea. It's designed to provide continuous rotary motion from the changing field inside a coil, in a tank-circuit, but with minimal damping of the resonance.

The magnetic field strength in the core is proportional to the slope of the sine-wave, generated by the tank-circuit. It's plotted as a cosine. As our iron rotor is attracted equally to either polarity, the field strength looks like a rectified cosine wave.

This design works on the following principles:
 - The rotor is attracted to the stator at full-field - because:
   a) the common surface area between rotor and stator fins is greater than between the rotor and PMs, and
   b) the magnetisation of the iron stator is more than the permanent magnets (1.5 Tesla vs maybe 1 Tesla).

Full-field is the main power-stroke. It's power is derived from the rotor & stator being fully saturated by the coil - and doing what magnets do...

 - When the field strength of the coil drops below that of the permanent magnets, the rotor is attracted to the PMs.
   a) The PMs attract the rotor at it's ends - the arrangement shown provides an almost complete magnetic circuit through the rotor, from one side to the other. (could close the circuit easily enough)
   b) Note that the direction of the field of the internal PMs is at right-angles to the coil's field... This means there should be no generator effect from the presence of the PMs, or from the rotor when it becomes magnetised by them.

In this arrangement, the magnetisation of the rotor plates moves through 90 degrees in each quarter - so it's actually rotating around the x-axis - i.e. into the page. I think that's kinda cool, but have no idea if it's significant. Maybe the motor will levitate too ;)

The rotor - at full-field will be fully saturated by the coil - in the axial direction. So it won't be attracted to the PMs at all. With careful selection of the PMs, the resulting force on the rotor could be balanced so 50% of the time it's attracted to the stator, and 50% to the PMs - thus rotating.

It's a bit more difficult to build, but not much. The PMs could be lots of little ones...

Offline tim123

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Re: 'Core Rearrangement' - 'Fin Motor' - Open Tech - OU?
« Reply #17 on: August 22, 2013, 07:31:49 PM »
Hi folks, it's a rainy day here in the UK, so I've nothing better to do... ;)

Quarter-Turn-Pulse Fin-Motor.

Attached is a pic of the simple version of this that I intend to build as soon as... It's still designed to run as part of a tuned circuit. It provides pulse power - with a 1/4 turn action.

The idea being to hopefully harvest a large amount of mechanical force from the changing magnetic field, while causing minimum disturbance to it... Hundreds of horsepower out, for a few watts in, would be nice.

 - The rotor & stator fins are all identical - cut from half-round mild steel.
 - The fins are all attached to the shaft before it's inserted into the housing.
 - The rotor fins are firmly attached to the shaft - i.e. welded or bolted.
 - The stator fins are attached to the shaft via pillow-block bearings bolted into the rectangular face.
 - The stator fins are attached to the casing by bolts.
 - The casing could be made of acrylic tube for the prototype.
 - The stator fins are aligned vertically.
 - The rotor fins are free to move, and return to the bottom under their own weight, though it would probably be beneficial to add return springs too.
 - PTO would be via a ratchet gear, and a flywheel.

I'm aiming to test a small version of this ASAP, but I'm still working on the workshop. Almost done, it's taken months...

Things to test: get the tank circuit running, and see if a) the core actually moves, b) whether it destroys the resonance, or not.

PS: PTFE washers between all the fins & a drop of oil - to act as spacers. The fins have to be centered...

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: 'Core Rearrangement' - 'Fin Motor' - Open Tech - OU?
« Reply #17 on: August 22, 2013, 07:31:49 PM »
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Offline Khwartz

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Re: 'Core Rearrangement' - 'Fin Motor' - Open Tech - OU?
« Reply #18 on: August 24, 2013, 03:21:30 AM »
:) nice to see you keep going on your idea :) Good luck and ideas!

Offline Khwartz

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Re: 'Core Rearrangement' - 'Fin Motor' - Open Tech - OU?
« Reply #19 on: August 31, 2013, 10:07:29 PM »
How is it going, tim?  :D

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Re: 'Core Rearrangement' - 'Fin Motor' - Open Tech - OU?
« Reply #19 on: August 31, 2013, 10:07:29 PM »
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Offline tim123

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Re: 'Core Rearrangement' - 'Fin Motor' - Open Tech - OU?
« Reply #20 on: September 01, 2013, 05:09:33 PM »
Hi Khwartz, it's going slowly, as usual... Thanks for asking. :)

I've attached before & after pictures of what I've been working on below. My workshop... I'm just waiting for the new doors to arrive.

I've wanted a proper workshop for years. You need the space, and the tools, to do decent development work, and the living room's just not good enough any more.

The fin-motor is my top priority, although I may get distracted by Tinman's 'Rotary Transformer' a bit...

Offline Khwartz

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Re: 'Core Rearrangement' - 'Fin Motor' - Open Tech - OU?
« Reply #21 on: September 01, 2013, 06:11:51 PM »
Wow! What difference! :) for sure you have spent time on it!

Indeed, a true good workshop is a must for good easy experimentations :)

I look forward for your progresses, "lentement mais sûrement" ("slowly but surely") we say in french ;)

Cheer, Khwartz.

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Re: 'Core Rearrangement' - 'Fin Motor' - Open Tech - OU?
« Reply #21 on: September 01, 2013, 06:11:51 PM »
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Offline tim123

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Re: 'Core Rearrangement' - 'Fin Motor' - Open Tech - OU?
« Reply #22 on: September 19, 2013, 02:41:56 PM »
Fin-Motor: Test of Principle...

I've done a few tests to see if the fin motor design above will work.

The pics below show the apparatus. Hopefully all will be clear.

Pic 1) Shows the coil I used, and the power supply. The coil is a spool of wire - as bought from the shop - with part of the spool cut away.

Fin-Motor Arrangement:

Pic 2) Shows the apparatus used to test the fin-motor design as shown above...

 - Made from meccanno parts. Cut with an angle grinder.
 - The central semi-circle is mounted on a bearing, so it can rotate freely
 - The 3 parts were placed close together for the test - moved apart to show the bearing, for the pic.
 - The shaft was held inside the coil by hand, and moved around to see any variation in the effect throughout the core.

Results: Fin Arrangement

The effect expected was that the central semicircle 'fin' should line-up with the 2 fixed outer fins, when the power was applied.

The arrangement was held so the stator fins were vertical, and the rotor fell to horizontal under gravity. So they overlapped as shown the previous post.

When the power was applied, the effect was not observed. There was some attraction between the fins, but there was no rotary movement at any position within the coil. When I rotated the shaft, and the stator fins would 'carry' the rotor fin away from horizontal, but the force was weak, and it would fall back.


Parallel Plates Arrangement:

Pic 3) Shows a pair of meccanno plates, joined at one end, used to test the strength of the repulsion force when inserted lengthways into the coil.

As expected the 2 plates repel each other, and the force is quite strong. However, I can't really see an easy or practical way to make use of the force in this arrangement...


Rotating Cores

Pic 4) Shows a pair of rotating 'cores' on a plate, that can be inserted into the coil core.

When the power is applied they line up along the axis of the coil. The effect also works with a single 'core'.

The force in this arrangement is the highest. The mini cores are very strongly attracted to the axis, and to each other.

It looks like a practical arrangement that could be quite easy to build. It still conforms to the basic principle of 'core-rearrangement'.

I'll do some more work based on these new findings later on.

:)
Tim

Offline tim123

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Re: 'Core Rearrangement' - 'Fin Motor' - Open Tech - OU?
« Reply #23 on: September 19, 2013, 04:17:23 PM »
Another test. Pic attached.

In this arrangement, I used 2 sets of small magnets as springs to hold the core off-axis.

Power on - core aligns with coil axis
Power off - core aligns with PMs

It works very well, and I think I can use this mechanism to get continuous rotation - even if the coil is part of a tuned circuit.

I would have liked to put enough PMs on it to get the core to go across the coil axis completely, but there's not room inside the coil.

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Re: 'Core Rearrangement' - 'Fin Motor' - Open Tech - OU?
« Reply #23 on: September 19, 2013, 04:17:23 PM »
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Offline tim123

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Re: 'Core Rearrangement' - 'Fin Motor' - Open Tech - OU?
« Reply #24 on: September 19, 2013, 04:42:15 PM »
Hi Webby,
  thanks for the input.  :)

I don't really have any alternatives ATM... I was a bit suspicious of the holey plates but - if I turn the shaft round and put it against the opening of the coil - so the 3 fins are half-in the coil, and pointing down the coil - the central fin is firmly repelled, and comes out of the stators.

So the fins do behave like ok magnets when they can.

It really does look like there's very little attraction between the fins in that arrangement.

I still have an arrangement that works well, it's just not the original one. I'll have to give it some more thought, and see where it takes me next...

Offline tim123

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Re: 'Core Rearrangement' - 'Fin Motor' - Open Tech - OU?
« Reply #25 on: September 19, 2013, 07:29:48 PM »
Hi Webby,
  that sounds interesting. It sounds like that could be useful info for Butch's Pseudo solid designs too. I know there's something in it. Just waiting for my subconscious to figure out what:
http://www.overunity.com/13783/proof-of-overunity-from-magnets-fixture-no-negative-work-aspect-lafonte/new/topicseen/#new

I've been playing a bit more - to see if I could replicate the effect you described, I have previously noticed a kind of 'dead spot' between 2 attracting magnets:
 - If i place a steel disc exactly half way between 2 attracting magnets - it only very slightly magnetised, if at all.
 - If I move it closer to one or the other magnet - it is more strongly magnetised.
 - (tested by touching the disc with an iron nail)
 - With a 'pinch' field as you describe - the central steel disc is *very* strongly magnetised.
 - So my experiments confirm exactly what you describe. Nice one. :)

We've been discussing this a bit here:
http://www.overunity.com/13788/roy-davis-and-rawls-magnetism-discoveries/new/topicseen/#new

I've been playing with the coil a bit more. There are a couple of possibilities. I get good repulsion between loose iron bars in the coil - and I think I *can* design a mechanism to make use of it - similar to one i posted originally.

I like the idea of using PMs to provide the 2nd 'phase' too. Their field is perpendicular to the coil, so i don't think they affect it.

Perhaps this design could be applied to a pulsed V-gate type of motor...

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Re: 'Core Rearrangement' - 'Fin Motor' - Open Tech - OU?
« Reply #25 on: September 19, 2013, 07:29:48 PM »
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Offline Khwartz

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Re: 'Core Rearrangement' - 'Fin Motor' - Open Tech - OU?
« Reply #26 on: September 20, 2013, 01:17:01 AM »
Hi!

When you speak of "magnetic gate", do you speak of something like this (a side the coils to harvest the energy):

http://www.overunity.com/12555/g-e-a-m-gacnacrateur-a-accran-antimagnactique/dlattach/attach/127067/?

Offline tim123

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Re: 'Core Rearrangement' - 'Fin Motor' - Open Tech - OU?
« Reply #27 on: September 20, 2013, 11:22:52 AM »
It occurred to me yesterday, that it's maybe possible to do something like the pic attached...

In this arrangement:
 - The output coil's fields can't react against the main coil - because they're perpendicular.
 - I think the output coil's core must be fully saturated by the main coil for there to be any power output...

Notes:
 - I tried to test it, with a small transformer, with a neo magnet at each end
 - Trafo was held firmly in place by hand
 - when I powered up the main coil - I got Zero volts out of it.
 - I'm assuming that this is because I can't even get close to saturating the core with my coil & power supply.
 - If the core did get fully saturated by the main coil, I would expect the PMs to fall off the ends. They didn't.
 - When I say >50cm below - I mean in length. Longer coils are more efficient: less amp-turns per unit-length required.

PS, I realise it'd be better to complete the magnetic circuit - i.e. have a steel tube inside the main coil...

Offline tim123

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Re: 'Core Rearrangement' - 'Fin Motor' - Open Tech - OU?
« Reply #28 on: September 20, 2013, 04:08:48 PM »
Magnets also play an "ownership" game,, as in the one that is closest to the object will interact with it but to change that the "new" field must be stronger to overcome that attraction...

Yes. I think the Main coil will have to produce a strong field to affect the pre-magnetised Output core. I think a full magnetic circuit will actually help - as shown in the diagram below.

The real question is this:
 In a tuned circuit, can the magnetic field do work - i.e. re-align the magnetic domains of the cores - without being 'used up'?  :-\

Offline Khwartz

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Re: 'Core Rearrangement' - 'Fin Motor' - Open Tech - OU?
« Reply #29 on: September 21, 2013, 12:14:01 AM »
Quote
always think this way,,  a north pole coming is the same thing as a south pole leaving as viewed from the same end of a coil,,  a north pole leaving one side is the same as a north pole coming towards the other side.
Very interesting viewpoint imho, webby1! Very thanks for sharing :)

 

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