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Author Topic: 'Core Rearrangement' - 'Fin Motor' - Open Tech - OU?  (Read 19939 times)

Offline tim123

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'Core Rearrangement' - 'Fin Motor' - Open Tech - OU?
« on: August 03, 2013, 12:36:14 PM »
Hi guys,
  I think it's possible to build a simple overunity motor. In fact I think there's potentially a whole calss of motors, operating on the same basic principle, which would be overunity, and I'd like to put these ideas into the public domain - and see if they stand up to scrutiny...

The motor would comprise of an outer coil - around a magnetic core. The magnetic core contains two parts - the rotor, and the stator. Both are made of magnetic material - i.e. iron.

When the coil is powered, the rotor and stator both become magnetised. Depending on orientation, they will repel, or attract. When the coil is unpowered, the rotor and stator are both unmagnetised (or at least much less magnetised). This allows for a continuous rotary movement as the rotor is alternately attracted to (or repelled from) the stator, then unmagnetised as it passes the stator.

What's effectively happening is that the magnetic core of the coil is being 'rearranged' - i.e. from one configuration to another - by the application of power to the coil. It relies on the magnetic properties of the materials to provide the output power - while magnetising them using as little power as possible.

With the arrangement I'm proposing there's very little possibility of any generator effect from the movement of the rotor:
 - There is no axial movement of flux due to the rotation of the rotor relative to the coil.
 - There is only a tiny change in the inductance of the coil as the rotor changes position (Tested - but only roughly).

Note that the mass of material within the core is constant. What changes are: the core's apparent face area and/or it's flux linkage properties.

I've got two designs to illustrate the concept. Images attached. Originally posted under this thread:
http://www.overunity.com/13673/tims-magnet-piston-engine-design/msg366509/#msg366509

The first is the basic rotary design, with the stator / rotor faces running axially. The second is the 'Fin Motor' design - where the faces run radially. The Fin Motor design is vastly more powerful (potentially).

If I'm right, and the Fin Motor design works the way I think it should - then you can pack a large surface-area of magnet into a relatively small volume, and power it with only a little more electricity than would be required to saturate a static iron core.

Does anyone have any info which might be relevant to this?
 - Reasons why it wouldn't work?
 - Existing patents of the same idea?
 - Similar lines of research?

Thanks :)
Tim

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy


Offline gyulasun

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Re: 'Core Rearrangement' - 'Fin Motor' - Open Tech - OU?
« Reply #1 on: August 05, 2013, 12:48:19 PM »
Hi Tim,

You think it is possible your motor setups are able to produce more output than what is input to run them and this is fine BUT it ought to be tested and build a prototype to get evidence.

Trying to answer your first question (why it would not work?) I do think your setups are able to work and operate as you describe. 
(I am also sure the inductance of the coil changes very little during the operation and this is a favorable situation to capture and reuse some part of the input energy.)

HOWEVER if your question referred to extra output over the input than the only answer is building a test setup and measure and measure and again check the measurements...  :)

Existing patents on it? I have not seen such working principle in such arrangement but who knows?

Similar line of research?  Sorry I am not aware of such. I mentioned to you Butch LaFonte and gave a link but his setups do not include yours... as far I can judge it.
 
Keep at it and build it.

Greetings, Gyula

Offline tinman

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Re: 'Core Rearrangement' - 'Fin Motor' - Open Tech - OU?
« Reply #2 on: August 05, 2013, 01:44:55 PM »
Hi guys,
  I think it's possible to build a simple overunity motor. In fact I think there's potentially a whole calss of motors, operating on the same basic principle, which would be overunity, and I'd like to put these ideas into the public domain - and see if they stand up to scrutiny...

The motor would comprise of an outer coil - around a magnetic core. The magnetic core contains two parts - the rotor, and the stator. Both are made of magnetic material - i.e. iron.

When the coil is powered, the rotor and stator both become magnetised. Depending on orientation, they will repel, or attract. When the coil is unpowered, the rotor and stator are both unmagnetised (or at least much less magnetised). This allows for a continuous rotary movement as the rotor is alternately attracted to (or repelled from) the stator, then unmagnetised as it passes the stator.

What's effectively happening is that the magnetic core of the coil is being 'rearranged' - i.e. from one configuration to another - by the application of power to the coil. It relies on the magnetic properties of the materials to provide the output power - while magnetising them using as little power as possible.

With the arrangement I'm proposing there's very little possibility of any generator effect from the movement of the rotor:
 - There is no axial movement of flux due to the rotation of the rotor relative to the coil.
 - There is only a tiny change in the inductance of the coil as the rotor changes position (Tested - but only roughly).

Note that the mass of material within the core is constant. What changes are: the core's apparent face area and/or it's flux linkage properties.

I've got two designs to illustrate the concept. Images attached. Originally posted under this thread:
http://www.overunity.com/13673/tims-magnet-piston-engine-design/msg366509/#msg366509

The first is the basic rotary design, with the stator / rotor faces running axially. The second is the 'Fin Motor' design - where the faces run radially. The Fin Motor design is vastly more powerful (potentially).

If I'm right, and the Fin Motor design works the way I think it should - then you can pack a large surface-area of magnet into a relatively small volume, and power it with only a little more electricity than would be required to saturate a static iron core.

Does anyone have any info which might be relevant to this?
 - Reasons why it wouldn't work?
 - Existing patents of the same idea?
 - Similar lines of research?

Thanks :)
Tim
Tim-that fin motor design is truely excellent,and i dont believe i have seen a motor designed like that anywhere. This is one i would like to give a try,if you dont mind?.I believe i have an idea as to what to use for the core's,and would be easy to come by.

Brad

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: 'Core Rearrangement' - 'Fin Motor' - Open Tech - OU?
« Reply #2 on: August 05, 2013, 01:44:55 PM »
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Offline tim123

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Re: 'Core Rearrangement' - 'Fin Motor' - Open Tech - OU?
« Reply #3 on: August 05, 2013, 01:58:51 PM »
Hi Gyula, I agree it needs testing. I'm working on a CAD design in my spare time...

Tinman, please feel free to try it out - it's Open Technology as far as I'm concerned. I'd like the idea to be developed on the forum - it makes it unpatentable - at least in the UK... :-)

Offline tinman

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Re: 'Core Rearrangement' - 'Fin Motor' - Open Tech - OU?
« Reply #4 on: August 05, 2013, 02:32:41 PM »
Hi Gyula, I agree it needs testing. I'm working on a CAD design in my spare time...

Tinman, please feel free to try it out - it's Open Technology as far as I'm concerned. I'd like the idea to be developed on the forum - it makes it unpatentable - at least in the UK... :-)
That may be the case in the UK,but i believe in America,it's first in best dressed-no mater who designed it. These are the risk's we all take when open sourcing designs like this. I have recently had one of the members on my forum email me and tell me some one took one of his design's,and is now selling kits for the device. It happened not long ago aswell,when teslatronics done some of his own take and sell-but we wont go into that. On my forum,we call these guys sleeper's.They watch in the background,and then run with anything that looks like it could make them a buck.
What you need to do is tie your name in with your designs,and post a video showing your design that carries your name. This way you have some intellectual property rights to the design.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: 'Core Rearrangement' - 'Fin Motor' - Open Tech - OU?
« Reply #4 on: August 05, 2013, 02:32:41 PM »
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Offline tim123

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Re: 'Core Rearrangement' - 'Fin Motor' - Open Tech - OU?
« Reply #5 on: August 05, 2013, 05:24:49 PM »
Hi Tinman. I'd be quite happy if someone else verified the design, and started selling kits / motors. That's the ideal scenario. The only problem would be if anyone claimed exclusive rights to it, but as long as these forum pages are online - it's dated proof of the origin of the design.

I don't think the laws of man are really laws (they're always changing, and they don't apply equally to all, so they can't really be considered laws, eh...). I think the real law is something like: "give without thought of receiving", so I'll try to do that and leave the rest up to 'the Universe' / 'God' / 'the Force' etc. to sort out. ;)

Anyway, you said you maybe had an idea for the rotor? Was it a variable capacitor? If so - mine are all non-magnetic...

I'm going to do a CAD design for it, but it'll take a week or two at least. I may have to make the prototype with a square-ish core - for an easier build (bolts through center)... Will see...

It'd be nice just to verify that the iron rotor & stator would actually behave in the way predicted - before going too far with the prototyping - I'm finding it a bit difficult to test with what I have lying around though.

Offline Khwartz

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Re: 'Core Rearrangement' - 'Fin Motor' - Open Tech - OU?
« Reply #6 on: August 09, 2013, 09:46:33 PM »
I'm agree with you, tim123.

If the purpose is to help Humanity by giving open source O.U. devices, I can assure you all it is not our people in our own workshops we will change the world and make a real impact. Only large, so industrial and commercial spreading could do it, cause not everybody is skill or will have the state to produce their own device.

Cheers, Khwartz.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: 'Core Rearrangement' - 'Fin Motor' - Open Tech - OU?
« Reply #6 on: August 09, 2013, 09:46:33 PM »
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Offline tim123

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Re: 'Core Rearrangement' - 'Fin Motor' - Open Tech - OU?
« Reply #7 on: August 11, 2013, 08:53:09 PM »
Hi Khwartz  :)
Yep, the whole point of open-sourcing ideas has to be so that someone else can make the thing for a profit, without you necessarily getting any of it. But then, money is not the only force in the universe, and this life's just a character-test anyway - that's why it's so short...

Anyway, the Fin Motor idea is still just an idea, and I don't think that using pulsed DC will produce OU in this device.

Gyula, I've been digesting the info you gave me previously about inductance, resistance & transient times...

I think I see now that pulsed-DC isn't going to work, and why Tesla went for AC - because you can get the magnetic field to vary much easier using AC. Specifically - if you use a tank circuit - you only have to supply the losses. Using pulsed DC, the time-constant for any decent sized coil is a long time - far too slow for a motor. However, given AC, (and a parallel capacitance) - things change - and we could easily get a big coil resonating at a decent speed...

One thing with AC, and this design, is that it won't rotate. It will pulse though, and that can still be used to drive things - i.e. using a ratchet gear.

There is definitely a change in inductance as the rotor moves. To the coil it looks like many small magnets in the core are moving to join up, and make one long magnet - which does have a bigger field - so there is still a means by which OU may be thwarted... This is really not easy to calculate without the training, but I guess I'll keep working on it.

I've sussed out a really easy way to build a simple version of the fin-motor - only a chop-saw and pillar-drill required (I think) - using readily available square-section mild steel, bearings on each stator, and an acrylic tube to fit it all in. Can easily be made any length.

I'm just not sure at the moment, whether it'll actually be OU or not. I'd really like to be able to do the calcs - so I know how much OU I'll get before the build, if any...

Offline Khwartz

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Re: 'Core Rearrangement' - 'Fin Motor' - Open Tech - OU?
« Reply #8 on: August 11, 2013, 11:14:03 PM »
Hi tim123.

Money is an "economical energy", said the philosopher; we need it to make the production system functioning.

Did you realised by the way that profit IS the normal pratice of "O.U.": obtention of more economical energy that we put in an enterprise/compagny? ;)

Still I have to make my own indenpent activity "O.U." to have the financial to have a chance to take some weeks to make experiments too again.

Have fun with your device dear tim123 :)

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: 'Core Rearrangement' - 'Fin Motor' - Open Tech - OU?
« Reply #8 on: August 11, 2013, 11:14:03 PM »
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Offline gyulasun

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Re: 'Core Rearrangement' - 'Fin Motor' - Open Tech - OU?
« Reply #9 on: August 11, 2013, 11:54:52 PM »
...
I think I see now that pulsed-DC isn't going to work, and why Tesla went for AC - because you can get the magnetic field to vary much easier using AC. Specifically - if you use a tank circuit - you only have to supply the losses. Using pulsed DC, the time-constant for any decent sized coil is a long time - far too slow for a motor. However, given AC, (and a parallel capacitance) - things change - and we could easily get a big coil resonating at a decent speed...
...

Hi Tim,

Well, Tesla used both pulsed DC and AC, depending on his final purpose for a task, just remember he has several patents on just mechanical circuit controllers i.e. rotary switches. And with a pulse of a given amplitude and ON time, you can also keep up oscillations in a resonant tank circuit to make up for the losses, in a more precise way than by using your AC.
It is okay that for coils with higher self inductance the pulsed operation may prove to a bad choice but to solve this, you may use many smaller coils in parallel if a setup permits them, albeit if the small coils have to be positioned close to each other, their mutual inductance thus created may also increase time constant, so this would need testing. Using coils in narrow sections with a certain gap between each other and paralleling them may decrease long time constant.

I do not think you should bother too much how inductance of the coil(s) change as the rotor moves, I think the change is small. maybe a few percent. Also, it is very good you wish to calculate output / input ratio in advance, before using your soldering iron but at setups like this the calculations surely involve solving Maxwell equations and even if done correctly, the result may still not indicate more output versus input by default, inherent in the equations. I am not saying this is 100% sure but so far I am not aware of practical proofs for calculated COP>1 cases (COP = Coefficience of Performance)

So the best is to go ahead and build and test and measure.

Greetings, Gyula

Offline Low-Q

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Re: 'Core Rearrangement' - 'Fin Motor' - Open Tech - OU?
« Reply #10 on: August 12, 2013, 01:51:55 PM »
Hi Tinman. I'd be quite happy if someone else verified the design, and started selling kits / motors. That's the ideal scenario. The only problem would be if anyone claimed exclusive rights to it, but as long as these forum pages are online - it's dated proof of the origin of the design.

I don't think the laws of man are really laws (they're always changing, and they don't apply equally to all, so they can't really be considered laws, eh...). I think the real law is something like: "give without thought of receiving", so I'll try to do that and leave the rest up to 'the Universe' / 'God' / 'the Force' etc. to sort out. ;)

Anyway, you said you maybe had an idea for the rotor? Was it a variable capacitor? If so - mine are all non-magnetic...

I'm going to do a CAD design for it, but it'll take a week or two at least. I may have to make the prototype with a square-ish core - for an easier build (bolts through center)... Will see...

It'd be nice just to verify that the iron rotor & stator would actually behave in the way predicted - before going too far with the prototyping - I'm finding it a bit difficult to test with what I have lying around though.
These laws are changing. You're right. They are changing in the direction where there are potential profits or som form of self interest. Profit outlaws most politics and religious directions. In other words; Profit or self interest is the very reason why politics and religions exists.


That said, if you openly share an idea that might cause a better energy/cost ratio, most industries would not be interested for as long the blueprints are available to everyone. Most people aren't nice because they want to give without asking for something back. There is allways a hidden self interest in being kind. That is our nature, and nothing will stop it from being so.


Vidar

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: 'Core Rearrangement' - 'Fin Motor' - Open Tech - OU?
« Reply #10 on: August 12, 2013, 01:51:55 PM »
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Offline tim123

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Re: 'Core Rearrangement' - 'Fin Motor' - Open Tech - OU?
« Reply #11 on: August 12, 2013, 06:25:54 PM »
Hi Gyula :)
 
...
 And with a pulse of a given amplitude and ON time, you can also keep up oscillations in a resonant tank circuit to make up for the losses, in a more precise way than by using your AC.
 ...

...thanks, that's a very good point, and it makes the build easier...

I have come to the conclusion that a tank-circuit is the only practical / efficient way to provide the varying magnetic field required. I know energy can be 'recaptured' from a depowered coil, but as far as I know, it's not as efficient as a resonant circuit.

I think the small change in inductance as the rotor rotates would only damp the oscillations a bit, and the magnetic field isn't going to be 'used up' in any sense by the rotor movement... So it should be possible to generate excess power from the varying field.

Note, the fin motor design generates it's rotary power at a right-angle to the magnetic field, i.e. in an orientation (dimension) which is basically invisible to the (2-dimensional) magnetic field... Perhaps this is one of the keys to OU using electromagnetics - i.e. the fact that we have access to a dimension that the magnet doesn't?

However, as I mentioned before, the motor was designed for square wave input, and it won't work as described above as part of a tank circuit. So unless anyone has any ideas, I'm going to work on the basis that it'll be a quarter-turn pulse generator. So the rotor will turn 1/4 turn into the stator at full-field, and back out again at minimum field.

Vidar, you say "There is allways a hidden self interest in being kind. That is our nature, and nothing will stop it from being so."
My understanding is that if you continue to grow as a human being throughout your life, genuine compassion / empathy is a sense that will develop naturally at some point. We all start off mostly selfish as children, and in a functional society we would all grow out of that. In this society though, arrested development is unfortunately 'normal', and most people never grow up...

When your sense of compassion is genuinely working, then your motivations change, and it's quite normal to care about all people, animals, plants etc, and to do things for them just because you want them to be happy. It allows you a much deeper understanding of the world - you can see deeper into things when you care about them. It is the part of us that makes us human. Without empathy, you're incomplete.

Offline tim123

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Re: 'Core Rearrangement' - 'Fin Motor' - Open Tech - OU?
« Reply #12 on: August 12, 2013, 08:15:13 PM »
According to my calcs, I can have a decent sized coil (300mm x 100mm ID x 120mm OD) - which would have an inductance of about 10 Henries... It's rated to give me plenty of magnetic field strength at 48Watts DC (i.e. 14amps, 3.4volts - ratio can be adjusted by changing wire size) to saturate any iron in the core.

BUT I can't possibly run this thing on pulsed DC, because the transient time is 3 minutes!

However... If I parallel it with a capacitor of 10 microfarads, the resulting tank-circuit should have a resonant frequency of about 16Hz (gives 1000 rpm) BTW, I'd be planning to pulse power into the circuit from a bench power supply, via a DC solid-state-relay, at 16Hz...
(http://www.deephaven.co.uk/lc.html)

In fact, I can reduce the capacitance, and increase the frequency, but it all seems far too easy, so there's probably a drawback here I don't know about... Can anyone help? Is it really that easy? What am I missing?

Offline Khwartz

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Re: 'Core Rearrangement' - 'Fin Motor' - Open Tech - OU?
« Reply #13 on: August 12, 2013, 11:47:17 PM »
These laws are changing. You're right. They are changing in the direction where there are potential profits or som form of self interest. Profit outlaws most politics and religious directions. In other words; Profit or self interest is the very reason why politics and religions exists.


That said, if you openly share an idea that might cause a better energy/cost ratio, most industries would not be interested for as long the blueprints are available to everyone. Most people aren't nice because they want to give without asking for something back. There is allways a hidden self interest in being kind. That is our nature, and nothing will stop it from being so.


Vidar
Would better I think you not generalize your own case! Looks to me.

There are people who make profits because it is useful to make the things go right for the General Interest.

Money is the "energy" of the economy. Some use the economy for their only own (wrongly understood) profit and some others to bettering the world.

Some work hard to make the economy (= valuable exchanges between people) working so that everybody could enrich, some to enrich themselves (they think), and some just are critical.

"The purpose of any activity is the creation of the maximum of happiness"; if this was applied I think there would be less confusion, less selfishness and less ... criticism.

Offline Khwartz

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Re: 'Core Rearrangement' - 'Fin Motor' - Open Tech - OU?
« Reply #14 on: August 13, 2013, 12:02:28 AM »
Hi Gyula :)r
 
...thanks, that's a very good point, and it makes the build easier...

I have come to the conclusion that a tank-circuit is the only practical / efficient way to provide the varying magnetic field required. I know energy can be 'recaptured' from a depowered coil, but as far as I know, it's not as efficient as a resonant circuit.

I think the small change in inductance as the rotor rotates would only damp the oscillations a bit, and the magnetic field isn't going to be 'used up' in any sense by the rotor movement... So it should be possible to generate excess power from the varying field.

Note, the fin motor design generates it's rotary power at a right-angle to the magnetic field, i.e. in an orientation (dimension) which is basically invisible to the (2-dimensional) magnetic field... Perhaps this is one of the keys to OU using electromagnetics - i.e. the fact that we have access to a dimension that the magnet doesn't?

However, as I mentioned before, the motor was designed for square wave input, and it won't work as described above as part of a tank circuit. So unless anyone has any ideas, I'm going to work on the basis that it'll be a quarter-turn pulse generator. So the rotor will turn 1/4 turn into the stator at full-field, and back out again at minimum field.

Vidar, you say "There is allways a hidden self interest in being kind. That is our nature, and nothing will stop it from being so."
My understanding is that if you continue to grow as a human being throughout your life, genuine compassion / empathy is a sense that will develop naturally at some point. We all start off mostly selfish as children, and in a functional society we would all grow out of that. In this society though, arrested development is unfortunately 'normal', and most people never grow up...

When your sense of compassion is genuinely working, then your motivations change, and it's quite normal to care about all people, animals, plants etc, and to do things for them just because you want them to be happy. It allows you a much deeper understanding of the world - you can see deeper into things when you care about them. It is the part of us that makes us human. Without empathy, you're incomplete.
Sorry I am not agree with you, tim123. I have 3 children and have observed many, unless the parents screw-up them, they are all but not selfish; all the contrary! But need to differentiate the behaviour of the body from the behaviour of the being itself. If the body is hungry, nothing else counts, but if basic organic needs provided them you have a smily baby, and what is a smile if not something generously provided to make people happy around?

 

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