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Author Topic: Tim's Magnet-Piston Engine Design  (Read 25219 times)

Offline tim123

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Re: Tim's Magnet-Piston Engine Design
« Reply #30 on: July 30, 2013, 07:20:45 PM »
Thanks Gyula, that makes sense. What you're saying is that with the current arrangement - when powered on, most of the force is directed back towards the shaft...

I've been thinking about a re-arrangement of this design - to give more surface-area, and perhaps that solves this problem too. I'll do a drawing...

Ok. New design "Fin motor" - Drawing attached. In this version, the iron rotor & stator faces are arranged at 90 degrees to the last one. This is similar to one of those variable capacitors which have 2 sets of plates, one of which rotates.

In this design, the surface area is greatly increased between rotor & stator. I think, in this case, the rotor & stator will attract - because of the change in orientation... So when the coil is powered, the rotor 'fins' are attracted to the stator 'fins' - and I would imagine, would pull pretty hard. When it's de-powered, the residual magnetism will cause some drag, unless the coil is powered to the opposite polarity - just enough to demagnetise the iron - at the end of the power-stroke.

There should be virtually zero generator-effect as the rotor's movement hardly changes the inductance of the coil at all. So at full power, it should only take a little more electrical power than that required to saturate the core. Perhaps. From the coil's point of view, it's core is 're-arranging itself', it is symetrical though - there's no obvious moving flux as in a standard motor.

The forces should be largely tangential to the rotor - as the rotor fin is attracted between the stator fins. It would need to be well aligned though - if it weren't, and one set of magnets were closer, there would be strong pulsing forces along the shaft which wouldn't be good for the bearings or efficiency.

If every one of the fins, when saturated, acts like a magnet, then this motor should have a pretty high power density - it would be easy to have a really large surface area. As all the magnet faces are packed in together, with just one surrounding coil it's a lot simpler too.

What do you think guys? Am I on to something, or just missing something as usual?  :)
Tim

PS - Soz if drawing not brilliant. I noticed I should have erased the circle around the rotor....

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Re: Tim's Magnet-Piston Engine Design
« Reply #30 on: July 30, 2013, 07:20:45 PM »

Offline gyulasun

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Re: Tim's Magnet-Piston Engine Design
« Reply #31 on: July 30, 2013, 08:12:38 PM »
Hi Tim,

Well,  your 'fin' motor really increses the surface area of both the rotor and stator and forces surely increase.
Question is: which direction?
I am afraid forces would cancel each other?  I mean your rotor shape and stator shape have symmetry and the big coil wrappes them up fully from the outside, magnetizing them in a symmetrical way ?  In your previous drawing the assymetry was insured by the fact that the rotor could fully leave the stator, in this setup it cannot.  Perhaps omitting half of the rotor may already cause an assymetry to let forces act into a direction.  I speculate here of course, this needs more consideration.
One more thing on your fin motor: the rotor iron core is embedded quasi fully into the stator, hence the flux from the big coil cannot easily penetrate and reach the rotor, to magnetize it?

I managed to dig out a drawing I made to Luc at another forum long time ago that shows facing slanted surfaces to increase shaft torque, see it attached. It shows the principle only, it must be adapted to your earlier drawing. IT was meant to increase the torque of a pulse motor where the permanent magnets are on the rotor and coils are the stators but in most of the cases these components are positioned radially with respect to the shaft, giving a reduced torque inherently.

rgds, Gyula

Offline tim123

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Re: Tim's Magnet-Piston Engine Design
« Reply #32 on: July 30, 2013, 10:44:30 PM »
Hi Gyula, as the rotor fin enters the stator, the power goes on. It's attracted to the stator fins it's in contact with - the other set are an air gap away, and attracting the other half of the rotor. So the asymmetry is ensured by the timing.

The rotor does fully leave the stator - the fins go from being fully overlapped, to not overlapped at all.

My understanding is that the flux goes through the entire contents of the core, and it's not possible to shield it. The flux can't saturate the stator, and not the rotor too - even if they're together. Besides, even if it only saturated the stator - then the stator would still attract the rotor.

Thanks for the diagram, I didn't really understand what you meant until you posted it. It's not ideal though. I think in the 'fin motor' design the force is literally tangential to the radius... :)

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Re: Tim's Magnet-Piston Engine Design
« Reply #32 on: July 30, 2013, 10:44:30 PM »
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Offline TechStuf

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Re: Tim's Magnet-Piston Engine Design
« Reply #33 on: July 30, 2013, 10:53:14 PM »
Inefficiencies will always be inherent to moving mass in order to produce energy.  A magnetic field is a 'virtual mass' in that it exerts the effect of a mass myriads of times it's own weight.

Since the dawn of man's recognition of the energy potential exhibited by the quantum world....he has chased after it.  Largely via the relatively clumsy (by comparison) vehicles of our domain.   Take massive electrical generators and internal combustion engines as examples.  The energy required to accelerate and decelerate mass is a cost that those in the 'field' are increasingly weary of paying.  Of course, they seem to think nothing of passing those costs (and much, much more) on to you.  The fact that man has proven increasingly capable of employing the virtual to effect the 'real'....exposes our own 'virtual' state.

Case in point:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LX7q--QLz1k

Of course, when you think about it, all is "real".  It is simply a matter of balance of"power" and Righteous Authority....

Then, what isn't possible? 

To what extent is the validity of existence for the many states of matter? Consciousness?

Magnetic fields can move mountains....but the relative mountains that initiate them need not play such a 'heavy' role in their production....and the work they do.


TS

Offline gyulasun

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Re: Tim's Magnet-Piston Engine Design
« Reply #34 on: July 31, 2013, 12:22:46 AM »

Hi Tim,

Here is a link to a picture which shows a socalled butterfly variable capacitor 'rotor' I assume you think of as your rotor in a possible shape: http://img.youtube.com/vi/wuLKX0j7mV8/0.jpg  I uploaded it too below.

If yes, then let's place this rotor into the center line of a big solenoid as you drew in your drawing above. Let's not have a stator fin part yet.
Let's try to agree that how the big coil would magnetize this rotor as a whole? I think the individual plates will become very thin magnet plates, one pole on the closer surface we can see fullface (the 1st plate on the left end of the shaft) and the other pole is on the other side of this 1st plate i.e. the plates would become magnetized by their thickness direction. And so on for all the 12 plates. I do not think that any one plate would be magnetized diametrically.

What do you think? (if you did not think of your rotor shape like shown in the picture, please describe the differences)

Thanks, Gyula



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Re: Tim's Magnet-Piston Engine Design
« Reply #34 on: July 31, 2013, 12:22:46 AM »
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Offline tim123

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Re: Tim's Magnet-Piston Engine Design
« Reply #35 on: July 31, 2013, 08:16:28 AM »
Hi Gyula, yes that's exactly the shape I had in mind.

I agree - the magnetic fins would be magnetised thru their thickness, but that will result in the rotor & stator being strongly attracted. Just like a stack of magnets will line up.

This is also like a Reluctance motor - the rotor & stator will come together to minimise the flux-path length. So either way I think it should work. :)

Offline gyulasun

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Re: Tim's Magnet-Piston Engine Design
« Reply #36 on: July 31, 2013, 12:52:00 PM »
Hi Tim,

You may be right, I possibly mixed up this rotor shape with Butch LaFonte's perpendicular magnetics and his tests with washers placed between two facing (NS) magnets. Obviously, in your latest setup the NS field orientation is shaft-wise while in Butch setup with the washers it is radial-wise hence the washers repel each other.

Butch's tests are in this link: http://98.130.116.247/shared/manager.asp?d=files\ButchLaFonte\Perpendicular%20Magnetics\Video_clips\  and I mean this video:  BalanceTip1.mov (best if you download).

I have a question on your stator shape and drew a rough sketch. Will the stator have the wall thickness at all or it is just not erased in your original drawing fin-motor.gif (like the circle around the rotor)? I believe this is important because as I sketched it reminds me a kind of Faraday cage i.e. blocks magnetic fields to penetrate the inside volume...  What do you think? (This is why I mentioned the stator screening the rotor the other day.) Somewhere the stator ought to be cut into two parts, just due to assembling issues with the rotor and the cut may or may not solve field blocking? Or you think this is not an issue at all, regardless of the stator 'cage' shape (the continuous wall thikness)?

rgds, Gyula

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Re: Tim's Magnet-Piston Engine Design
« Reply #36 on: July 31, 2013, 12:52:00 PM »
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Offline tim123

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Re: Tim's Magnet-Piston Engine Design
« Reply #37 on: July 31, 2013, 05:21:29 PM »
Hi Gyula, I have wondered about the wall thickness for the stator. I think the wall is a problem - not because it will block the field - but because any rotor/stator faces running axially will repel - so an outer wall will reduce efficiency. Ideally only the radial faces would exist. However, that does make it more difficult to build. Thinner fins = less axial faces vs radial...

The rotor & stator have to be strong - it's an engineering challenge. I'll give it some thought...

 - The stator fins could be made of steel sheet, cut to the shape shown previously, with tufnol tube spacers between - to provide the spacing for the rotor fins. They would all have to be bolted together - down the length of the coil - and into the casing (non-magnetic bolts). Would lose considerable diameter this way though.

 - Could use brass spacers, and machine them to key into the stator plates. Would lose less diameter that way...

 - Stator could be made of brass tube, with steel fins braised in place.

 - Could make each stator segment a separate coil. So the stator fins would be the bobbin ends. Easy to bolt together from the outside then...

So there are a few options I can think of immediately... I'll have to have think about it some more with a glass o vino... ;)

Offline Low-Q

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Re: Tim's Magnet-Piston Engine Design
« Reply #38 on: August 03, 2013, 09:48:39 PM »
Dont worry about the area. You can focus on the circumference where the torque is strongest. That way the fins do not need to be so big, but narrower and stiffer. This will wash away the problems with magnetic stress that is pulling and pushing on the fins. Only 10 - 15% of the radius is neccessary to have fins. The magnetic flux will find its path through a more narrow path where flux density will be much greater plus that you have focused the torque as far from the shaft as possible. More power and better rigidity. Less inductance also means more power at higher rpm.

Vidar

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Re: Tim's Magnet-Piston Engine Design
« Reply #38 on: August 03, 2013, 09:48:39 PM »
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Offline tim123

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Re: Tim's Magnet-Piston Engine Design
« Reply #39 on: August 05, 2013, 09:17:28 AM »
Hi Vidar, thanks for your input. 10-15% of radius sounds reasonable. I am concerned about stresses on the fins (and axially along the shaft too)...

I guess - if less inductance is better - then only the fins should be made of magnetic material - and the shaft & supporting structures should be non-magnetic... I suppose less iron in the core = less inductance means less input power required, and lower transient time, hence higher frequency...

Thinking about it, I guess there's no benefit in in magnetising / demagnetising bits of the rotor which aren't facing the stator - it'll just result in lost power, eddy currents, heating etc.

:-)
Tim

PS: I've started a new thread for this design - as we're not actually discussing the piston design any more...
http://www.overunity.com/13692/core-rearrangement-fin-motor-open-tech-ou/

 

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