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2nd "law" violations => Heat to mechanical energy conversion => Topic started by: JohnAXD100 on July 15, 2013, 08:07:13 AM

Title: Recycling The Energy which was used in Cooling
Post by: JohnAXD100 on July 15, 2013, 08:07:13 AM
You can imagine the cold object as if it were a spring when you compress a spring you store a specific amount of energy inside it by releasing it you can get the energy which you've stored.

By extracting 1MJ of heat from a liquid it will be very cold and will contract then it will cool the surrounding environment and will absorb 1MJ of heat and expand producing 1MJ of mechanical energy we can use this mechanical energy (the energy of expansion) to cool it again for free.

And this is the main idea of the Fridge that powers itself this type of fridge  can generate a huge amount of cold forever to cool any thing.

The more we'll consume the coldness from the cold liquid the more it'll expand and produce mechanical energy.
Title: Re: Recycling The Energy which was used in Cooling
Post by: DaS Energy on July 22, 2013, 03:27:10 AM
Spot on!
Title: Re: Recycling The Energy which was used in Cooling
Post by: LibreEnergia on July 22, 2013, 09:38:55 AM
You can imagine the cold object as if it were a spring when you compress a spring you store a specific amount of energy inside it by releasing it you can get the energy which you've stored.

By extracting 1MJ of heat from a liquid it will be very cold and will contract then it will cool the surrounding environment and will absorb 1MJ of heat and expand producing 1MJ of mechanical energy we can use this mechanical energy (the energy of expansion) to cool it again for free.

And this is the main idea of the Fridge that powers itself this type of fridge  can generate a huge amount of cold forever to cool any thing.

The more we'll consume the coldness from the cold liquid the more it'll expand and produce mechanical energy.
Sorry, but this is absolute rubbish , totally unfounded in any sort of physical reality.

The characteristics of heat engines are fully characterised by the laws of thermodynamics and those laws preclude such devices from 'self running' in the manner you describe.
Title: Re: Recycling The Energy which was used in Cooling
Post by: DaS Energy on July 22, 2013, 09:51:36 AM
Whatever you do,  do nothing that may require the use of a fridge, they are impossible in your mind.
Title: Re: Recycling The Energy which was used in Cooling
Post by: LibreEnergia on July 22, 2013, 10:07:04 AM
Whatever you do,  do nothing that may require the use of a fridge, they are impossible in your mind.

What sort of a ridiculous statement is that.

In thermodynamic terms fridges are simply heat engines running in reverse. They consume energy as work and shift heat from a low temperature to a higher one. Heat engines do the opposite. They transfer heat from a higher temperature to a lower one and produce work as an output.

However , there is absolutely no way to connect those two processes together and produce a machine that self runs. It always requires an external energy input.
Title: Re: Recycling The Energy which was used in Cooling
Post by: DaS Energy on July 22, 2013, 10:15:23 AM
In your dreams!
Title: Re: Recycling The Energy which was used in Cooling
Post by: LibreEnergia on July 22, 2013, 10:27:33 AM
In your dreams!

So far my 'dream' is totally inviolate. The second law has never yet been shown to be broken. Yours is simply wishful thinking.
Title: Re: Recycling The Energy which was used in Cooling
Post by: DaS Energy on July 22, 2013, 10:49:05 AM
Fridges destroy the second law each time they become active!
Title: Re: Recycling The Energy which was used in Cooling
Post by: LibreEnergia on July 22, 2013, 11:49:35 AM
Fridges destroy the second law each time they become active!

I guess it is pointless discussing the 2nd Law while you hold to that viewpoint  rather than actually learning what the second laws means.

Read up on some thermodynamics and you will soon see how ridiculous your statement is.
Title: Re: Recycling The Energy which was used in Cooling
Post by: DaS Energy on July 22, 2013, 01:10:48 PM
I love it when the don't knows pretend they do.
Title: Re: Recycling The Energy which was used in Cooling
Post by: LibreEnergia on July 22, 2013, 01:45:05 PM
I love it when the don't knows pretend they do.

You'd better be able to back that statement up with a coherent explanation of how a fridge breaks the second law or I shall just assume you are more of an idiot than you already appear to be.
Title: Re: Recycling The Energy which was used in Cooling
Post by: DaS Energy on July 22, 2013, 02:37:56 PM
I very gentle with those coming behind.  At a big dick competition bring a dinner plate!
Title: Re: Recycling The Energy which was used in Cooling
Post by: profitis on July 22, 2013, 05:01:16 PM
lol@ das ...libre still,to this very day has refused to explain to us the spontaneous cooling effect of photon up-conversion devices like the one on sale at foreverlight.com.until he does explain this we must assume the 2nd law is finito.
Title: Re: Recycling The Energy which was used in Cooling
Post by: DaS Energy on July 23, 2013, 05:27:03 AM
 
Thank you profits.
To expand on JohnAXD100 work, We have being playing around with R744 since 2002.
The attached using a 10 litre per second flow produces 10KW.
The colder a heat engine is the more energy it puts out. CO2 will mechanically chill to -40*C
and still be putting out.
Title: Re: Recycling The Energy which was used in Cooling
Post by: LibreEnergia on July 23, 2013, 11:09:14 AM
lol@ das ...libre still,to this very day has refused to explain to us the spontaneous cooling effect of photon up-conversion devices like the one on sale at foreverlight.com.until he does explain this we must assume the 2nd law is finito.

Pringsheim in 1929 showed why anti-Stokes fluorescence (the principle behind devices such as the foreverlight) is not in contradiction to the second law.

Subsequent to this in 1946 Landau proved it by establishing that overall the entropy of such a system always increases.

The second law does not prohibit the cooling occurring, only that overall entropy is increased. Otherwise we'd be foolishly considering that refrigerators are 2nd law violators when clearly they are not.
Title: Re: Recycling The Energy which was used in Cooling
Post by: profitis on July 23, 2013, 03:23:10 PM
@libre..a fridge we have to plug in the wall,a nano silica shell we dont have to plug in the wall,its free refrigeration with no need for a temperature difference to get the free refrigeration,its a kelvin violation whichever way you look at it.up-conversion where ambient is concerned is a frighteningly blatant decrease of entropy in total.whats to prevent me from shoving a solar panel onto an ambient up-conversion device in a isothermal box,nothing.
Title: Re: Recycling The Energy which was used in Cooling
Post by: profitis on July 23, 2013, 03:36:31 PM
@das yes there are discrepencies regarding the expansion and contraction of gases and phase changes,eg the proell effect.ideal gas behaviour as depicted by text-books is just that,an ideal.in reality we have other entropy changes happening in gases beside plain expansion/contraction,we have molecular association,liquefication,crystallization to take into account,these may open loopholes through the 2nd law under certain circumstances indeed.
Title: Re: Recycling The Energy which was used in Cooling
Post by: sparks on July 23, 2013, 03:53:37 PM
  When an electron falls towards the more massive oppositely charged proton it experiences two accelerating forces.   Gravity and electrical.
Both forces are accelerating forces.   What was professed by Einstein is simply that an increase in velocity makes the mass to energy relationship intrinsic to the particle tip one way or the other.   An accelerating force will increase the velocity of the particle.  The particle will emit photons of light and increase in mass.  The wavelength of the emitted photon upon acceleration is dependent upon the mass/velocity before experiencing the accelerating force.   The old inertia needs to go.  The way it goes is in the form of electromagnetic radiation.     The bound electron weighs more than the unbound electron.  It is more massive and at a constant velocity.  There is absolutely no reason why an electron moving at constant velocity has to emit photons even if it's constant velocity vector is angular relative to the nucleus.    So what we have is a very massive electron inside the atom and when it is outside the atom not so massive.   Accordingly if e=mc2.  when we ionize monatomic hydrogen the mass to radiated photons e will follow this equation.  This ionization event will release the original mass gained during atomic synthesis a long long long time ago.  Or maybe not that long ago like 8 seconds ago 92 million miles away in the big space plasma condensor thingy in the sky.
Title: Re: Recycling The Energy which was used in Cooling
Post by: profitis on July 23, 2013, 05:05:18 PM
interesting@sparks,,giving clues to the secrets of cold 'fusion'perhaps where electrons are being ripped apart from hydrogen and shoved back on all the time..almost in seperate 'run' stages.
Title: Re: Recycling The Energy which was used in Cooling
Post by: LibreEnergia on July 24, 2013, 01:13:48 AM
  When an electron falls towards the more massive oppositely charged proton it experiences two accelerating forces.   Gravity and electrical.
Both forces are accelerating forces.   What was professed by Einstein is simply that an increase in velocity makes the mass to energy relationship intrinsic to the particle tip one way or the other.   An accelerating force will increase the velocity of the particle.  The particle will emit photons of light and increase in mass.  The wavelength of the emitted photon upon acceleration is dependent upon the mass/velocity before experiencing the accelerating force.   The old inertia needs to go.  The way it goes is in the form of electromagnetic radiation.     The bound electron weighs more than the unbound electron.  It is more massive and at a constant velocity.  There is absolutely no reason why an electron moving at constant velocity has to emit photons even if it's constant velocity vector is angular relative to the nucleus.    So what we have is a very massive electron inside the atom and when it is outside the atom not so massive.   Accordingly if e=mc2.  when we ionize monatomic hydrogen the mass to radiated photons e will follow this equation.  This ionization event will release the original mass gained during atomic synthesis a long long long time ago.  Or maybe not that long ago like 8 seconds ago 92 million miles away in the big space plasma condensor thingy in the sky.


I'm left wondering if you just make this stuff up or perhaps have read a little bit about ionization and binding energies without fully comprehending it ?

You conclusions about ionization, binding energies and mass changes is in exact contradiction to generally a accepted theory. I guess with a theoretical underpinning such as that,  'free energy' shows up everywhere.

So much so that nothing can actually exist. as soon as mass comes into existence it is inexplicably destroyed in a proverbial puff of smoke. Were we to be having this conversation in that bizarre and exciting universe you'd be arguing the toss for the existence of 'free mass'  rather than free energy I'd bet.

I'd advise you to have a look at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Binding_energy . You'll realise your conjectures are completely false.
Title: Re: Recycling The Energy which was used in Cooling
Post by: sparks on July 24, 2013, 05:22:21 AM
   So an electron experiencing an ACCELERATING force losses mass?   Let me get this straight.   The velocity of a free electron is 1 meter per second.    The electron experiences an accelerating force and reaches a velocity of 100,000 meters per second.   It is immune to any mass gain? 
Title: Re: Recycling The Energy which was used in Cooling
Post by: LibreEnergia on July 24, 2013, 06:07:40 AM
   So an electron experiencing an ACCELERATING force losses mass?   So let me get this straight.   The velocity of a free electron is 1 meter per second.    The electron experiences an accelerating force and reaches a velocity of 100,000 meters per second.   It is immune to any mass gain?

No, as you say it gains mass. However I was referring to your statement

"This ionization event will release the original mass gained during atomic synthesis a long long long time ago.. etc"

Ionization requires energy INPUT,  An electron bound to a nucleus has lower mass compared to when it is ionized, the exact opposite of what you are implying.
Title: Re: Recycling The Energy which was used in Cooling
Post by: sparks on July 24, 2013, 07:02:27 AM
No, as you say it gains mass. However I was referring to your statement

"This ionization event will release the original mass gained during atomic synthesis a long long long time ago.. etc"

Ionization requires energy INPUT,  An electron bound to a nucleus has lower mass compared to when it is ionized, the exact opposite of what you are implying.
Ionization requires cancellation of the binding force only.  Has nothing to do with the electron mass gain.  The peculiar motion of the electron will determine the mass of the electron.  Simply because it is sharing a common velocity with the core does not alter it's mass.    This whole concept of electron gain in velocity simply because it is bound is horseshit.  It is the equivalent of taking a bunch of pool balls laying on a table and placing the rack on them and suddenly the pool balls start moving all on their own.
Title: Re: Recycling The Energy which was used in Cooling
Post by: LibreEnergia on July 24, 2013, 07:22:42 AM
Ionization requires cancellation of the binding force only.  Has nothing to do with the electron mass gain.

So I take it you do not agree that bound particles have lower mass compared to when they are unbound as is generally accepted.?

In which case your paradigm will certainly give rise to free energy effects. Good luck developing a comprehensive theory based on that, but I can see a few holes developing already.
Title: Re: Recycling The Energy which was used in Cooling
Post by: Low-Q on July 24, 2013, 02:33:27 PM
You can imagine the cold object as if it were a spring when you compress a spring you store a specific amount of energy inside it by releasing it you can get the energy which you've stored.

By extracting 1MJ of heat from a liquid it will be very cold and will contract then it will cool the surrounding environment and will absorb 1MJ of heat and expand producing 1MJ of mechanical energy we can use this mechanical energy (the energy of expansion) to cool it again for free.

And this is the main idea of the Fridge that powers itself this type of fridge  can generate a huge amount of cold forever to cool any thing.

The more we'll consume the coldness from the cold liquid the more it'll expand and produce mechanical energy.
I like this idea. However, the process of cooling and heating mass also takes into account the potential energy found in expansion and contraction. If you spend 1MJ to compress a steel spring. Now, put that compressed spring into a melting oven. The spring loose tension, and ask where the input energy goes. Is the 1MJ input energy lost or destroyed? No. As the spring loose tension, it release heat that correspond to the energy that compressed it.


The similar applies to heating an cooling a fluid. Parts of the energy goes to cooling it, and the rest goes to contracting it. To get back all the input energy, you must also get back the kinetic energy in the expansion during heating.


For a gasoline engiune, heat is a bi-product that is waste. The engine runs because of expansion of the gasous fluid. The expansion is caused by heat, but it isn't the heat that runs the engine. Heat is waste.
Title: Re: Recycling The Energy which was used in Cooling
Post by: sparks on July 24, 2013, 03:41:36 PM
   What I suspect is that an electron that is bound in a 1s orbital  fall resulted  in an electrically charged particle of increased velocity and mass than before it was accelerated.   This formed hydrogen.  ( Not every electron drop necessarily resulted in this structuring upon hydrogen synthesis but obviously some did or we wouldn't have the persistence of  hydrogen).   An electrically charged particle will create a reaction in the magnetic field which is flowing from somewhere to the particle and going somewhere.  This allows the particle to remain at a constant velocity and mass thousands of orders over that of the free state electron: due to the magnetic field relativity of the electron current compared to the magnetic dipole moments produced by the proton.    The electron is still trying to fall due to what was once the accelerating force field but this force is countered by the electron current effects.   This only happens on the synthesis of monatomic hydrogen in a positive plasma or electron deprived portion of space.
  Thermal dynamics is a special case of physics limited to the molecular jitter if you will.  It is archaic science developed for steam locomotive engineers to figure out how much coal they needed to get a train from point a to point b.
Title: Re: Recycling The Energy which was used in Cooling
Post by: profitis on July 24, 2013, 05:24:42 PM
yes @sparks heat is jitter as you put it,vibration,phonons equivelant of photons which are also a a type of vibration package.if we can upconvert  photons vibrations with no expediture of energy then libre owes us an explanation as to why we cant 'upconvert' phonon vibrations,which have an infrared frequency,with no expenditure of energy.heat can and will upconvert(concentrate)to higher temps(higher infrared)at no expense to us humans other than the intelligent design of the upconverting device(information is power,literaly),giving us ability to circumvent kelvins vibrational jitter dictat.
Title: Re: Recycling The Energy which was used in Cooling
Post by: sparks on July 25, 2013, 08:08:16 AM
      Photon blue-shifting happens all the time and is well understood as compton inverse scattering.  The opposite of that happens every time you turn on a black light and look at freaky paintings that appear to glow in the dark.   Now quartz is an interesting crystal.   It red shifts far-infrared into near infrared that is really good at plucking water strings.  What if we red-shift near infrared into microwaves using a crystal.  Then we can get some rf heating effects going on.   Oops.  1st law violation.  BEEP BEEP BEEP BEEP BEEP
Title: Re: Recycling The Energy which was used in Cooling
Post by: LibreEnergia on July 25, 2013, 09:24:52 AM
Thermal dynamics is a special case of physics limited to the molecular jitter if you will.  It is archaic science developed for steam locomotive engineers to figure out how much coal they needed to get a train from point a to point b.

Totally incorrect to say that. Certainly classical thermodynamics was developed during the steam era, but thermodynamics did not stand still as a discipline as the understanding of atomic structure improved. The theoretical framework expanded to encompass that new knowledge Notably as statistical mechanics and now quantum thermodynamics.

Nothing in in the new versions of thermodynamics has ever given rise to physical behaviour either predicted OR observed that overturned the initial conclusions developed long ago.

All the laws as they stood then and now are still valid.


Title: Re: Recycling The Energy which was used in Cooling
Post by: profitis on July 25, 2013, 02:39:22 PM
@libre ..the evidence is to the contrary..they may still be officialy valid,but in reality we see different
Title: Re: Recycling The Energy which was used in Cooling
Post by: sparks on July 25, 2013, 03:04:45 PM



    Thermodynamics is simply a study in the diffusion of molecular vibrations plain and simple.  Any laws simply apply to this one form of energy transport and not to the entire cosmos.
Title: Re: Recycling The Energy which was used in Cooling
Post by: profitis on July 25, 2013, 03:40:03 PM
 the laws which do apply to the subset of vibrations need a cleansing and altercations ie..they strictly forbid a perpetuum mobilum of the 2nd kind,wheras a perpetuum mobilum of the 2nd kind is easily demonstrated
Title: Re: Recycling The Energy which was used in Cooling
Post by: sparks on July 26, 2013, 05:40:35 PM
        They had this heating problem with klystron tubes.   The current through the tube was heating up the anode.  So they had water cooled anodes and radiators and all sorts of problems cooling the anode. The more modern ones recycle the plate current.  Now imagine a klystron tube in reverse.  It receives microwaves from microwave frequency light sources.  There is a constant voltage supplied between the anode cathode to initiate the electron current through the tube.   This dc current is converted into electron bunches or plasma waves by the microwave energy ringing in the antennae disposed along the tube.  These plasma waves then crash on the anode which starts to get hot.  Then you cool the anode by inductive coupling to a transformer as each wave changes the magnetic field about the anode at a predictable frequncy.  You use some of the power to maintain the tube in cold cathode mode.  (Cathodes do actually get cold)  Electrons leave the cathode and with less electrons to jitter about they get cold.  In order to supply the cathode with some heat you attach a large piece of conductive material to ground.   Now the tube is acting as a heat engine.  It takes electrons from the ground to the tube where they are caused to travel to the anode as a function of the dc voltage MAINTAINED between cathode and anode.  There they drive a transformer primary due to the  varying density of charges instead of heating the anode and all the problems you have with xrays from electron collisions. 
Title: Re: Recycling The Energy which was used in Cooling
Post by: profitis on July 26, 2013, 09:01:28 PM
@sparks..your down-conversion of infralight into microwave frequency example deserves serious attention.nantenna tech is limited to how well the mim diode can rectify higher vibes but if we downconvert to microwave then a regular silicon diodes would do just fine.imagine,a silicon diode rectifying ambient heat en masse! 
Title: Re: Recycling The Energy which was used in Cooling
Post by: sparks on July 27, 2013, 06:33:21 PM
  Our nervous systems are good heat transducers.   We have neuron receptors that monitor the temperature of the blood stream. These transducers change the molecular vibrations into electricity that travels along wires and cause chemical reactions to occur in the chemical analogue computers we call the brain.   This is an endothermic chemical reaction that results in an electrical pulse in the 8hz range to be transmitted from the nerve ends to the brain.  This is subconscious most of the time until the enviroment becomes treacherous.   Then your video display flashes do something before the cpu melts down.    If this message is disregarded the brain will usually just make you pass the fuck out where you are likely to fall into contact with the Earth that is more than likely going to be cooler than the air.  So what we have here is pretty much a broadband transduction of molecular motion into electricity.
Title: Re: Recycling The Energy which was used in Cooling
Post by: profitis on July 27, 2013, 09:46:31 PM
speaking of nerves,lets take a semi-permeable membrane seperating some salty water from some gelatine water and allow to reach osmotic equilibrium.now the concentration of chloride ion is permanently different on both sides and if we shove two identical chloride ion-sensitive electrodes on both sides of membrane we get constant voltage and current capacitance.a self-charging battery in action,the salt concentration difference unchanging.
Title: Re: Recycling The Energy which was used in Cooling
Post by: sparks on July 28, 2013, 06:25:38 AM
   Ion pumps. 8)
Title: Re: Recycling The Energy which was used in Cooling
Post by: profitis on July 28, 2013, 03:24:25 PM
down-gradient pumps believe it or not.the wonders of electrostatics.
Title: Re: Recycling The Energy which was used in Cooling
Post by: LorneGifford on October 24, 2013, 04:52:02 PM
Gents

I don't believe the following violates the second law of thermodynamics, but would be most appreciative of any thoughts you might have.  Key feature is the de laval nozzle generating a supersonic exhaust flow, which creates significant pressure and hence temperature reduction.  The exhaust flow being supersonic means of course there is no pressure translation back up it to the nozzle throat.
Title: Re: Recycling The Energy which was used in Cooling
Post by: DaS Energy on October 25, 2013, 02:49:44 AM
Hello LorneGifford,
That you post shall certainly work. We use a similar in the three turbine setup attached.
The gas forced water strikes a Pelton turbine before being returned to the boiler via a Francis turbine.
The gas force being unaffected by this process continues to its original purpose.
Title: Re: Recycling The Energy which was used in Cooling
Post by: DaS Energy on October 26, 2013, 07:39:49 AM
18th Centaury British Ammonia Tram. Refrigerant cycle.  1812 Royal Navy Air-Sea trial and Coal crashed to penny a ton. 21st Centaury R744 (CO2) serve same purpose.
Two hydro one gas can be accommodated CO2 by compressor/pump on one of the three shafts.
Dry-Ice to gas -40*C heat need. Fridge recycle -30*C heat need.
We lag behind that posted here, way out of our depth :-)