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Author Topic: Just how big is the FE Scam Industry (in $ millions annually <10, 10-100, >100?  (Read 14349 times)

Offline Ein~+ein

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Mark Dansie or Sterling Allan might be able to give us a good estimate.

I'm referring to any unsubstantiated claims that individuals, organizations, and even governments buy or invest in.  Don't think I need to list them all but a PESN search yields 361 hits for 'scam', and the same for 'fraud'.  Here's but one:

Explosion at California water fuel research company kills inventor

On Thursday afternoon, 28-year-old inventor, Tyson Larson was killed in an explosion that ripped a hole in the roof and blew out the back doors to a Simi Valley building of the family member's company, Realm Industries, which was seeking to develop his water fuel technology.

The explosion was likely a result of an attempt to compress hydroxy gas -- never a good idea. Also, it turns out that two associates of the company were indicted in March for "defrauding 300 investors of $7 million with ploys including a process for creating alternative fuel from water."


Let's exclude those investments into pure research where no claims are made and the outcome is unknown.  Mark provided an example on one of his posts where a friend invested $750,000 to test an idea that proved futile.   



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Offline e2matrix

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Did you get too much flak at Energetic Forum on your similar thread and decide to come over here?   Really,  what is your intention with this?

Offline Ein~+ein

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Did you get too much flak at Energetic Forum on your similar thread and decide to come over here?   Really,  what is your intention with this?

No, I actually ran two critical threads there unhindered.  I actually didn't expect to last there that long.  The first time I was threatened was when Aaron took a request for evidence as a personal attack. Surprisingly, he hasn't deleted my posts---go and read them if you like.  I've been a member here for several months but I wanted to verify Aaron's assertion on that post (I've linked to), that Lindemann et al are really pseudoscientists.  I mean, how else would you describe such a 'different' science that dismisses mainstream science?  Seriously!  Given the fact that forum is entitled 'Renewable Energy' and this website is 'Overunity', is it not ironic that critical comments are less tolerated there than here? 

Why am I here?  Clean energy is in everybody's interest, is it not?   I first got interested in FE when someone from where I'm from made headlines with an 'FE discovery'?  It took some cybersleuthing on my part because, as Mark Dansie will tell you, even engineers and experts can be fooled.  Even after Mark assured me it was fake, it took time to be convinced of that but recognizing the telltale signs did it along with an email to a partner.  So, why are you here?

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Offline profitis

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@einstein.dont go jumping to giant conclusions too quikly.but i agree with you that many scamguys out there.as i said to markdansie before its actualy a good thing that scamguys exist as they are creating a security bubble for the real guys and massively drawing attention to the quest for alternate energy.

Offline MileHigh

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Between 10 and 100 million is my estimate.

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Offline lumen

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Between 10 and 100 million is my estimate.

Your not even close!

Don't forget the Hot Fusion scam that's been going on for 50 years and hopes to continue for another 50!

It must surely be into the Hundreds of Billions by now.




Offline MileHigh

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Lumen,

I know that there is a kind of "chip on your shoulder" phenomenon between free energy enthusiasts and legitimate science.  At least we know that the science for hydrogen fusion is legitimate - we know there is a source of unlimited energy there if we can overcome the technical hurdles.  They are targeting a commercial reactor by 2050.

On the other hand, BlackLight Power is a high-profile free energy scam that has been in operation since 1991 and a while back I read that the total take so far is about $400 million.

From Wkipedia:

Quote
Analysis of the theoretical claims by physicists has resulted in the conclusion that the proposed theory is unphysical and inconsistent with the highly verified equations of quantum mechanics. Analysis of the experimental claims in one paper, it was noted that detection equipment reportedly used was not capable of making measurements. Independent experiments not funded by or affiliated with BLP have failed to corroborate the claims of the theory.

Several prominent physicists have criticized the proposed physical theory, calling it "fraud", "extremely unlikely", lacking corroborating scientific evidence, a relic of cold fusion, and questioning the wisdom of those who invest in it. IEEE Spectrum magazine has been especially critical, pointing out that BlackLight has made similar claims before, announcing that it was on the brink of commercializing its revolutionary technology but failing to deliver.

On a smaller scale, take the example of Inteligentry, a black comedy buffoon farce if there ever was one.  I think over the past three years that John Rohner took in somewhere between one and two million.  He claimed to be making "plasma motors" and he posted a video tour of his offices.  The bizarre thing is that there was no kind of motor test bed anywhere in sight.  Such is the level of buffoonery that the con artist was not smart enough to realize that the video tour of his offices was exposing him as a scammer to those that knew what to look for.  Of course he made the video thinking he could con some more money out of people by impressing them.

MileHigh

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Offline Ein~+ein

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@einstein.dont go jumping to giant conclusions too quikly.but i agree with you that many scamguys out there.as i said to markdansie before its actualy a good thing that scamguys exist as they are creating a security bubble for the real guys and massively drawing attention to the quest for alternate energy.

And just what 'giant conclusions' have I jumped to too quickly?   All I'm asking for is some convincing evidence which few can provide. And what's this about the need for a 'security bubble'?

Offline Pirate88179

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Between 10 and 100 million is my estimate.

MH:

Heck, Solyndra alone hit us taxpayers for 535 million, not to mention the amounts for the other 5 "Green Energy" companies that went under after getting huge bucks from Federal grants.  To me, that is a scam as their records showed that it cost them like 250% more to produce their products than they were selling them for.  Were they really just that stupid about business, or was it deliberate?

My guess would be between 10-100 BILLION.  What do you think?

Bill

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Offline MileHigh

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Bill:

I don't disagree with you in principal, I suppose it depends on how you want to define the issue.

I know that there were a lot of publicly funded solar panel startups from various "green initiatives" of the US government that failed.  The Chinese undercut them so these grandiose business plans apparently completely ignored the "elasticity" issues with foreign competition.  So you can argue the government decision makers in control of the purse strings and the lobbyists and the corporate managers and their failed business plans were fools for not looking at all of the angles.  Of course nobody can predict the future, and it's probably the hardest thing to do when it comes to technology.

But were they scammers?  I suppose it depends on your point of view.  I am assuming the failed solar panel companies had a legitimate product that worked.  But at the same time, for sure when the government launches these kinds of funding initiatives that there are scammers out there that present legit looking business plans and get their funding.  Then they just burn through the cash and go bust without really wanting to be successful.  It's just an exercise in going through the motions to get the public funding.  They are the worst leechers feeding at the public trough.

So for me personally I am not including the "big energy busts" in the sense that I give the players the benefit of the doubt that they were sincere.  Not that I am truly knowledgeable about this stuff.   On the other hand you can look at Enron, even though they were a public company (if I recall correctly) and not directly funded by the government, they played an energy and investment shell game and robbed billions of dollars from innocent people.

MileHigh

Offline markdansie

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To estimate depends on definition, like if it was a research project with risk does not mean it is a scam. A scam to me is when the promoter knowingly takes money and knows it does not work, or has ignored all the evidence to the contrary.
I know for instance over $15,000,000 being spend on papp engine technology, but only $2,000,000 was scammed. Like wise with Searle technology i have seen a $5,000,000 blown on one project alone, but was not a scam.
Most of the scam artist can be found on Peswiki. Anyone with claims of a magnetic motor or power enhancer is a scam. Harmless ones like Mylow who took no money through to Perendev who took millions. Some astound me with their resilience like Magna coaster who took deposits and full payment years ago.
Today there are a few dozen floating form the scam in Asia trying to auction rights to solid state generators to Yilditz.
I would put the scam at the low tens of millions, but research is over 100,000,000 currently. What you read on Free Energy News scratches the surface as the real people with the underground labs stay clear of Kook sites. So you tend to only see the actual scams and delusional.
I like crowd funding as people can make up their own minds. Like the two NEST launched just under 2 months ago, but have failed yo even get 2% of what they are asking. People are getting smart.
The real barometer is if someone is happy to get real testing done on their claims. Moves are afoot at a real series attempt to get an international team together to do just that.
No matter how many scams and failures, people still want to believe so fools will always be happy to part with their money
Kind Regards
Mark






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Offline Ein~+ein

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Heck, Solyndra alone hit us taxpayers for 535 million, ..

Good point, Pirate!  Should I restrict such scams to OU claims, CoP >1, perpetual motion, water fuel, etc.?

Offline profitis

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@einstein..security bubble..so much crap is being granted patents that the so-called patent national-security thought police dont know what the fuck they are looking at anymore,think about it.they,l rubber stamp any shit nowadays,even the real shit.

Offline MileHigh

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Mark:

I obviously can't comment on the specifics of the research project associated with Searle, but as a general statement in my opinion the whole operation is one big scam, a long con that has been going on for 60+ years.  They surfaced on YouTube in 2007 and of course we are all still waiting...........

So in my opinion the lab coats and the coats of arms and the the whole thing is just a much bigger and slicker version of Inteligentry.  I haven't followed it for several years now, but I know that Serarl was releasing pdf updates that were almost psycho in their content which was a mixture of their alleged tech and stuff about xes and bodily functions and whatnot.  Ultra strange.

This YouTuber named Flowerbower was writing a book about Searle as of a few years ago.  I don't know the current status.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c__xh9RlWgo

Flowerbower is like another MarkE, he is brilliant and obviously has a very strong technical and educational background.  He wants to expose Searle, but I don't know if that is still pending or what.

I love the folklore narrative:  Skinny hungry post-war young buck in shorts works for a radio company that services the UK military.  Somehow between lining up with his ration cards for bread and butter and gasoline, and working at his full time job as a radio technicain, he manages to find some surplus parts at his job and builds a half-dozen "Searle effect generators" that can produce electrical power without fuel and they are also anti-gravity machines.  He had the vision in a dream.  Amazingly, all of them took off and flew away up into the sky.  One of them even crashed right through the kitchen ceiling and continued on it's way into the heavens.

So now 60 years later apparently poor Searl can't find the same materials that were readily available in 1947 and as a result he need millions of dollars to finish off the new prototypes that are always just around the corner.  In addition to all the impressive looking white lab coats there are even blazers with epaulettes.  This is in anticipation of the Searle space liners and the smartly dressed pilots and the Searle space ports.   Like the friggin' Jetsons.  To the moon in 30 minutes!!!!!  Richard Branson eat your heart out.

Searle is like some kind of 60s acid trip scene for me.  Like he is a character right out of the movie Barbarella.

MileHigh

P.S.:  I almost forgot the MAGIC OF THE SQUARES!!!

Offline cheappower2012

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Milehigh,what do you think of the Tariel Kapanadze Device,pick one as there's a lot of different ones,do you think its fake.
If you think its fake ,why,other than the logical argument,if it was real he would simply
patent it,and sell it to a company,instead of putting on shows,logical reasoning, but flawed.If you think its fake what about the 2 Turkey devices,how did he fool the Turks,they had the proper loads,and test equipment.
I asked this same question to Hoopy
He told me to leave him alone, he said he didn't know how TK faked out the Turks,he said he wants to simply believe its fake,LOL,human psychology is silly.
 

 

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