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Author Topic: Dream about magnet motor - sketch included  (Read 10974 times)

Offline gauschor

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Dream about magnet motor - sketch included
« on: June 22, 2013, 09:04:03 AM »
So I had a dream today about a magnet motor and thought I share it. It was about 2 U-shaped rings of about 15-20 cm diameter, containing magnets. The size was practical as you could hold in your hands for demonstration purpose. When squeezing the rings together the magnets in the lower ring accelerated infinitely and only decelerated when putting the rings apart. See image below for further details.

What you think about it?

(PS: maybe a subforum could be created with "dreams about overunity devices"? I've seen there were already 2-3 topics in this forum about such devices occuring in dreams, so maybe once we find something through "godly intention"  ;) ).

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Offline Low-Q

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Re: Dream about magnet motor - sketch included
« Reply #1 on: June 22, 2013, 11:46:05 AM »
Instead of a upper ring which rotates with 1-2mm/sec wouldn't it be more approperiate if the lower ring rotated at 20 000 RPM + 1-2mm/sec?
I cannot se why the upper ring must rotate at all.


Vidar

Offline gauschor

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Re: Dream about magnet motor - sketch included
« Reply #2 on: June 22, 2013, 02:29:03 PM »
I think the reason the upper ring must rotate is that the magnetic hills of the "stator" always need change their position - minimally and with minimal input. Usually a fixed stator with magnets never works.

Thought experiment:
Let's say you have 2 rings of magnets opposed to each other, same poles facing outside - one of the rings can rotate. When you put the rings together the repulsion will take its action and one of the rings will rotate. It will accelerate pretty fast at the beginning and then slow down again, eventually hooking into a position where magnetic poles of both rings are interleaved. It remembers me of the Perendev Video which accelerates very fast: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PFGiWiXMHn0 but eventually slows down, because the enclosing stator is fixed.

This must be avoided. Instead the initial acceleration should be taken by its momentum - by minimally changing the position of the stator continuously so that the acceleration is supported instead of slowed down.

Maybe even cogwheels could be used to rotate the stator - like a ticking clockwork.

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Re: Dream about magnet motor - sketch included
« Reply #2 on: June 22, 2013, 02:29:03 PM »
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Offline Low-Q

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Re: Dream about magnet motor - sketch included
« Reply #3 on: June 22, 2013, 05:50:21 PM »
That prendev motor is a hoax, don't you remember? The idea seam appearently to be that the magnetic repelling forces "blows" on eachother to make rotation, but this motor is powered by an electric motor on an outside axle and is hidden behind the wheel. For som spooky reason that axle is much longer on the other side which is not visible during power up. Then you can put two and two together.
The electricmotor is removed and hidden away at the same time as the invntor make more space between the rotor and stator and finally filming around his invention. Why could'n he be filming both sides when it powers up?


I have simulated this motor in FEMM some time ago, and I have analyzed 0.5 degree steps for 10 degrees (36 magnets) . All torque is as much positive as negative during this period. Starts with repulsion, and ends with attraction. The reason is because magnetic force is only a force, Magnetism have no flowing mass that can be used to anything useful.

That said I had a dream once of a gerotary style magnet motor, but it is an impossible design, which work if it was possible to make. Isn't that irritating? You finally design a working magnet motor but it is impossible to make it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LDRorMyxdO0&list=TLRctGafDgs-4

Vidar

Offline gauschor

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Re: Dream about magnet motor - sketch included
« Reply #4 on: June 22, 2013, 06:53:44 PM »
Of course I remember that no machine ever worked at Perendev, I was solely referring to the initial acceleration seen in the video. The initial acceleration and subsequent slow-down is the same in most experiments.

The gerotor looks interesting too, never seen something like that. Of course the polarity of the outer cog wheel can't remain the same. But what's about this FEMM? Is this a good software to simulate magnetic devices? (not that it randomly allows infinite runners due to bugs...)

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Re: Dream about magnet motor - sketch included
« Reply #4 on: June 22, 2013, 06:53:44 PM »
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Offline broli

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Re: Dream about magnet motor - sketch included
« Reply #5 on: June 22, 2013, 07:31:16 PM »
That said I had a dream once of a gerotary style magnet motor, but it is an impossible design, which work if it was possible to make. Isn't that irritating? You finally design a working magnet motor but it is impossible to make it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LDRorMyxdO0&list=TLRctGafDgs-4
Vidar

Coincidently my current research has led me to a similar concept, although it's not wise to speak before one has nothing to show. A 3d printer helps a lot with these kind of things ;).

Offline Low-Q

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Re: Dream about magnet motor - sketch included
« Reply #6 on: June 23, 2013, 11:11:59 AM »
Coincidently my current research has led me to a similar concept, although it's not wise to speak before one has nothing to show. A 3d printer helps a lot with these kind of things ;) .
The structure of the design isn't impossible, but keeping the magnetic orentation the same in the outer magnet as it rotates.

The simulation in FEMM prooved that the torque in both rotors was the same if the outer rotor was a permanent magnet. The inner rotor spins 20% faster due to gear ratio so the energy in that is 20% more than the outer rotor. However, in order to keep the magnetic orientation of the outer magnet it needs to be made of iron and magnetized externally. If I do that in FEMM it will not longer work.

Vidar.

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Re: Dream about magnet motor - sketch included
« Reply #6 on: June 23, 2013, 11:11:59 AM »
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Offline broli

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Re: Dream about magnet motor - sketch included
« Reply #7 on: June 23, 2013, 12:53:45 PM »
The structure of the design isn't impossible, but keeping the magnetic orentation the same in the outer magnet as it rotates.

The simulation in FEMM prooved that the torque in both rotors was the same if the outer rotor was a permanent magnet. The inner rotor spins 20% faster due to gear ratio so the energy in that is 20% more than the outer rotor. However, in order to keep the magnetic orientation of the outer magnet it needs to be made of iron and magnetized externally. If I do that in FEMM it will not longer work.

Vidar.

The main problem in your design is having the inner permanent magnet rotor so close to the the outer iron rotor, the field of this magnet will overpower any external field wanting the iron magnetized as shown in the video. You just need to cleverly alter the design. A possible hint: the inner permanent magnet must be much weaker than the external permanent magnet magnetizing the iron.

Offline Low-Q

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Re: Dream about magnet motor - sketch included
« Reply #8 on: June 23, 2013, 03:55:35 PM »
I have simulated with many different magnets strengths. It does not help.


The reason it doesn't work is that an iron ring will guide the external magnetism along the iron shape instead of having the magnetic polarization straight as inside a permanent magnet. So the iron ring acts more like a magnetic shield for the inner magnet instead of applying the inner magnet with attraction and repulsion.


Vidar

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Re: Dream about magnet motor - sketch included
« Reply #8 on: June 23, 2013, 03:55:35 PM »
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Offline broli

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Re: Dream about magnet motor - sketch included
« Reply #9 on: June 23, 2013, 07:25:36 PM »

The reason it doesn't work is that an iron ring will guide the external magnetism along the iron shape instead of having the magnetic polarization straight as inside a permanent magnet. So the iron ring acts more like a magnetic shield for the inner magnet instead of applying the inner magnet with attraction and repulsion.
Vidar

This is true but this is due to lack of proper design. When you use magnets on both sides the field will follow a near straight path through the iron. See below simulation where an iron piece is sandwiched between magnets.

Offline Low-Q

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Re: Dream about magnet motor - sketch included
« Reply #10 on: June 23, 2013, 08:38:24 PM »
This is true but this is due to lack of proper design. When you use magnets on both sides the field will follow a near straight path through the iron. See below simulation where an iron piece is sandwiched between magnets.
Try that with a doughnut shaped piece of iron between the magnets. It wont work like a bar. The fluxlines will follow the shape.

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Re: Dream about magnet motor - sketch included
« Reply #10 on: June 23, 2013, 08:38:24 PM »
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Offline broli

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Re: Dream about magnet motor - sketch included
« Reply #11 on: June 23, 2013, 11:56:04 PM »
As always you are a hard one to convince Vidar ;) . Below is a 3d simulation of a "dough-nut" iron piece between two split/flipped ring magnets.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=47aGAa2oERo

The field looks pretty straight on both sides doesn't it?

Offline Low-Q

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Re: Dream about magnet motor - sketch included
« Reply #12 on: June 24, 2013, 01:40:38 PM »
As always you are a hard one to convince Vidar ;) . Below is a 3d simulation of a "dough-nut" iron piece between two split/flipped ring magnets.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=47aGAa2oERo

The field looks pretty straight on both sides doesn't it?
Oh! I see, but I wasn't thinking about magnetized though thickness but through the diameter.

If magnetized through thickness, I need a flux loop that can interfer with the inner rotors flux loop. But with the outer magnets this loop will be away from the inner rotor. That means that the inner rotor will see the external magnets, and not the outer rotor. The repulsion or attraction does not occour where the field lines are in parallell or points directly towards or is in line with eachother, but where the field lines deflects. A better explanation; where the field lines cross eachother with a given angle. If the angle is 0 or 180 degrees from eachother, there is no attraction or repulsion.
In your example, the field lines are straight and in parallell with the field lines from the inner rotor. Therefor it will not work.

My example in the video does not show the correct inner rotor. The center should be blue - not red, and magnetism should point radially from center and out, and not perpendicular to the computer screen. In FEMM I made an inner rotor from several magnets where magnetism pointed outwards (or inwards, or what you like), so one pole are in the center while the other is at the circumference.

Vidar

Offline broli

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Re: Dream about magnet motor - sketch included
« Reply #13 on: June 24, 2013, 08:04:37 PM »
Perhaps you are over complicating your own design. There should be no need for radial outward fields. Your motor is equally sound (or not) when both rotors are magnetized through thickness. This is the same reason why magnets facing pole up/down repel/attract each other.

Offline Low-Q

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Re: Dream about magnet motor - sketch included
« Reply #14 on: June 24, 2013, 08:29:17 PM »
Perhaps you are over complicating your own design. There should be no need for radial outward fields. Your motor is equally sound (or not) when both rotors are magnetized through thickness. This is the same reason why magnets facing pole up repell each other.
I know, but the magnetized iron in your previous example will not be repelled or attracted by the inner rotor in my design if that also was magnetized through thickness. That is the problem.


Vidar

 

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