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Author Topic: simple overbalanced wheel with flywheel  (Read 33825 times)

Offline Rafael Ti

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Re: simple overbalanced wheel with flywheel
« Reply #15 on: June 17, 2013, 01:33:04 AM »
"You can transport a 1 N weight from the ground to the moon and back to a table 1 meter higher than the ground. The weight has gained only 1 Joule of potential energy."

And this is explanation given always by skeptics. The statement is true of course, however applicable only to one separate mass. So they want you to see weights as if they work separately. But they don't.
The multi-leverage system makes weights work together as one mass with its center offset from the axis/fulcrum.
There are some ways to achieve it and some people succeed.. Sjack Abeling among them I believe.

@Dusty, if you have any pictures of your not working wheels would you like to post?

P.S.
By the way interesting what's going on with Sjack Abeling...

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: simple overbalanced wheel with flywheel
« Reply #15 on: June 17, 2013, 01:33:04 AM »

Offline MileHigh

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Re: simple overbalanced wheel with flywheel
« Reply #16 on: June 17, 2013, 02:40:46 AM »
Quote
however applicable only to one separate mass. So they want you to see weights as if they work separately. But they don't.
The multi-leverage system makes weights work together as one mass with its center offset from the axis/fulcrum.

You are dead wrong.  As I already explained, if you have one rolling ball or four rolling balls or 10 rolling balls, it doesn't make any difference.  One rolling ball should give you one-quarter the "hypothetical gain" of four rolling balls.  i.e.; you don't need multiple rolling balls.  All of the balls follow exactly the same path and will do the same thing from an energy perspective.

You are just imagining that multiple balls will "work together as one mass with its center offset from the axis."  The fantasy is that the center of mass of the multiple balls will be permanently offset from the axis and therefore permanently create torque that keeps the wheel turning.  Well, before you even build a wheel you could make some drawings that show multiple balls cycling through the system as the wheel turns.  For each drawing you could easily calculate the center of mass of the set of balls and see if you are on the right track about the alleged "permanent offset of the center of mass of the multiple balls causing permanent torque."

If you do your drawings well and make a serious effort to study this, there is no chance at all that you will find the alleged permanent offset and permanent resultant torque.  This is just a 16th century notion that just won't go away.  If it actually was true then the entire world electrical grid would be powered by giant Bessler wheels and there would be no energy supply problems.

Offline Dusty

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Re: simple overbalanced wheel with flywheel
« Reply #17 on: June 17, 2013, 03:26:09 AM »
I have a few old pictures.  I have 27 videos of progress reports and tests of the old gravity wheel.


The old timers on this forum will remember all the work that went into research.


I'm trying to attach three pictures to this post, lets see if this works.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: simple overbalanced wheel with flywheel
« Reply #17 on: June 17, 2013, 03:26:09 AM »
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Offline Low-Q

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Re: simple overbalanced wheel with flywheel
« Reply #18 on: June 17, 2013, 12:46:16 PM »
"You can transport a 1 N weight from the ground to the moon and back to a table 1 meter higher than the ground. The weight has gained only 1 Joule of potential energy."

And this is explanation given always by skeptics. The statement is true of course, however applicable only to one separate mass. So they want you to see weights as if they work separately. But they don't.
The multi-leverage system makes weights work together as one mass with its center offset from the axis/fulcrum.
There are some ways to achieve it and some people succeed.. Sjack Abeling among them I believe.

@Dusty, if you have any pictures of your not working wheels would you like to post?

P.S.
By the way interesting what's going on with Sjack Abeling...
No, they unfortunatly don't. Each weight carries a separate given potential energy depending on where they are. That potential energy must account for THAT particular weight. The weight will therfor never have excess potential energy to lift or doing work on other weights in the same system.
The weights will never, by the design, be able to overbalance unless all weights are fixed on the different locations and never be able to roll or change their distance from the hub. In that case the wheel will turn 90 degrees and stop there with the weight furthermost from the hub resting at the bottom.

In classical "overbalanced" designs the weights are allowed to move around. Guess why; Because the system will be forced to conserve energy.

So, what appears to be an overbalance is only true for a static view - looking at the static torque when the weights still are fixed to one position on the wheel. As soon as the wheel "starts moving" the force that each weight represent will turn into kinetic energy which automaticly will be equal on both sides of the wheel.

Look at the mid pic in the post above. Look at the ramp that pushes the weight closer to the hub. Further there is a ramp which moves the weight up to the circumference. Notice the angle of attack that the wheel must fight against. That will apply an additional countertorque. Then use cosin or sin to calculate the energy required to lift the weight closer to the hub during that partial revolution of the wheel. The result is the very same as the energy released from the weights that is furthermost from the hub which want to go down.

If you separate torque from energy, and you will understand why closed looped gravity wheels cannot produce excess energy. And if you separate sceptics from realists, you wll understand even more ;-))


Vidar

Offline Rafael Ti

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Re: simple overbalanced wheel with flywheel
« Reply #19 on: June 17, 2013, 01:01:28 PM »
Hi Dusty
Nice work indeed... my first impression is that the curved arms do well in a bottom half of wheel, but have horrible characteristic in upper half /in conjunction with ramp/... unless Mr Sjack Abeling has invented something special to improve it.


Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: simple overbalanced wheel with flywheel
« Reply #19 on: June 17, 2013, 01:01:28 PM »
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Offline Low-Q

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Re: simple overbalanced wheel with flywheel
« Reply #20 on: June 17, 2013, 08:38:42 PM »
Quote
A silly question, what happens to the force gravity is making with the weight on a wheel when it is straight up??  is that reactionary force that is created any different when the wheel is rotated 90 degrees???


The force of gravity is vertical. When the weight is on the top, there is no torque in the wheel. When the wheel is turned 90 degrees the torque is at its maximum. The average torque is 70.1% of maximum during this half revolution. The torque on the other side is appearently less because the weights are closer to the hub. What one forgets is that the angle of attack of the weights is also changed in order to move the weight closer to the hub on their way up. And gravity are still working vertically - don't forget.


The angle of attack will increase the counter torque so the sum of torque due to hub distance, and the angle of attack is the same as the torque provided by the "heavier" side.


The fact that the heavier side is actually heavier with respect to the hub than the other side, does therfor not mean that the overbalanced wheel actually is overbalancing. Because the lighter side, due to the angle of attack is providing just as much counter torque as the torque in the heavy side.


When I say the gravity works vertically, I mean it works vertically no matter how the weight is going up or down. Common sense tells us that a vertical force does not change direction just because the weight is placed on a wheel. The vertical force is as I said allways vertical, so the potential energy that is stored in a weight at any hight, no matter how it gets there, is fixed to that altitude, and not depended on other weights, or cooperation from other weights for that matter.


So how on earth is it possible to extract excess energy from an object which potential energy is stored as a function of the force of gravity and its altitude? Will a wheel change this potential?

So gravity wheels cannot work in a closed loop without energy input, because they can't, OK?


I Hope this enlighten you a bit.


Vidar

Offline Rafael Ti

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Re: simple overbalanced wheel with flywheel
« Reply #21 on: June 18, 2013, 12:05:40 AM »
The angle of attack will increase the counter torque so the sum of torque due to hub distance, and the angle of attack is the same as the torque provided by the "heavier" side.
And where is your math to prove it?
Do you follow some pseudo-scientists who love to repeat sentence: "...therefore the net gain equals ZERO" even without evidence?


"so the potential energy that is stored in a weight at any hight, no matter how it gets there, is fixed to that altitude, and not depended on other weights, or cooperation from other weights for that matter."  - BOLLOCKS  ;D
According to You now we are not able to use a classic scale... as the potential energy of weight on one side of beam does not depend on the weight on opposite side.


Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: simple overbalanced wheel with flywheel
« Reply #21 on: June 18, 2013, 12:05:40 AM »
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Offline MileHigh

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Re: simple overbalanced wheel with flywheel
« Reply #22 on: June 18, 2013, 02:29:22 AM »
Rafael:

Quote
Do you follow some pseudo-scientists who love to repeat sentence: "...therefore the net gain equals ZERO" even without evidence?

That might be your perspective.  From my perspective you are the pseudo-scientist and I am the scientist.

You have to supply evidence that your Bessler wheel will work, I don't have to prove that it will not work.  This "logic inversion" from over-eager enthusiasts happens all the time.  The net gain does equal zero and it has been proven because the trip down is the same length as the trip up.  We know the work in each direction is Mgh, nobody will dispute that.  h - h = 0.  That's the proof on paper.  If you do the build you will end up supplying the physical evidence to back me up.

So either you prove your point with logic, which I seriously doubt you can do, or you go and do the build and see what happens and make a YouTube clip.  Chances are you will be the 9,999th YouTube Bessler wheel builder with an attempt that does not work.

MileHigh

Offline Rafael Ti

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Re: simple overbalanced wheel with flywheel
« Reply #23 on: June 18, 2013, 03:38:10 PM »
The net gain does equal zero and it has been proven because the trip down is the same length as the trip up.  We know the work in each direction is Mgh, nobody will dispute that.  h - h = 0.  That's the proof on paper.
COMPLETE BOLLOCKS  ;D
From my perspective you are pseudo-scientist, because you don't even see that the trip up and the trip down of the weight are NOT the same lenhgt (!) - firstly. Secondly, regardless the presence of ramp, summary weight (also energy) of masses on ascending side is less than summary weght of masses on descending side due to precence of multi-leverage phenomenon.

Now we have statement of Vidar:

"The fact that the heavier side is actually heavier with respect to the hub than the other side, does therfor not mean that the overbalanced wheel actually is overbalancing. Because the lighter side, due to the angle of attack is providing just as much counter torque as the torque in the heavy side."

And this is not hypothesis, this is conclusion. He was first to mention equation here therefore I asked him: 'where is your math to prove it?'

Repeating something after someone without evidence is not a science.. is just a pseudo-science.

Dear MilleHigh.. am I a pseudo-scientist because I am asking for evidence? Don't think so. The difference between me and you guys is that you spread something that looks like conclusion without prove. I only suggest..

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: simple overbalanced wheel with flywheel
« Reply #23 on: June 18, 2013, 03:38:10 PM »
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Offline MileHigh

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Re: simple overbalanced wheel with flywheel
« Reply #24 on: June 18, 2013, 04:00:56 PM »
Rafael:

The "secret" is that the only displacement that counts for anything is the vertical displacement.  The vertical displacement down is equal to the vertical displacement up.  Therefore h - h = 0.

The burden of proof rests on your shoulders Rafael.  Simple physics is telling you that it won't work and it's up to you to prove otherwise.

I have made my points so I doubt I will post anymore on this topic.  If you believe that you are correct do you plan on doing a build of your device to prove it will work?

MileHigh

Offline Low-Q

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Re: simple overbalanced wheel with flywheel
« Reply #25 on: June 18, 2013, 05:32:38 PM »
And where is your math to prove it?
Do you follow some pseudo-scientists who love to repeat sentence: "...therefore the net gain equals ZERO" even without evidence?


"so the potential energy that is stored in a weight at any hight, no matter how it gets there, is fixed to that altitude, and not depended on other weights, or cooperation from other weights for that matter."  - BOLLOCKS  ;D
According to You now we are not able to use a classic scale... as the potential energy of weight on one side of beam does not depend on the weight on opposite side.
Not exactly. If you place one weight on each side of the scale, with equal weight and equal distance to the tipping point, they will balance, but the potential energy that each weight carry is not depended on the other. However, if you move one weight closer, the other weight will fall down due to different torque, but that isn't what happens in an "over balanced" wheel, because you use energy from the wheel to move the weights closer to the hub.
I don't expect that you will accept this, but as you learn, you will realize. Hopefully you realize this before you waste you time and money in building a gravity wheel.

Vidar

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: simple overbalanced wheel with flywheel
« Reply #25 on: June 18, 2013, 05:32:38 PM »
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Offline mondrasek

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Re: simple overbalanced wheel with flywheel
« Reply #26 on: June 18, 2013, 07:13:30 PM »
I hope this helps.
 
http://youtu.be/LNl9doQfbyk
 
M.

Offline Low-Q

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Re: simple overbalanced wheel with flywheel
« Reply #27 on: June 18, 2013, 07:17:35 PM »
I hope this helps.
 
http://youtu.be/LNl9doQfbyk
 
M.
If it just could start playing. I don't see anything...


Edit: Still nothing. Is it fully uploaded yet, or must I log in first...I'll try that.


Edit2: It works because it lasts for 0 seconds. Could you please upload a new one?


Vidar

Offline mondrasek

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Re: simple overbalanced wheel with flywheel
« Reply #28 on: June 18, 2013, 07:19:54 PM »
YouTube is still processing the video.  It tells you so on the page.  I have no idea how long it will take before it is viewable.
 
Sorry.
 
M.

Offline Low-Q

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Re: simple overbalanced wheel with flywheel
« Reply #29 on: June 18, 2013, 07:25:30 PM »
YouTube is still processing the video.  It tells you so on the page.  I have no idea how long it will take before it is viewable.
 
Sorry.
 
M.
OK :-) I'll wait.

 

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