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Author Topic: simple overbalanced wheel with flywheel  (Read 30548 times)

Offline Rafael Ti

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simple overbalanced wheel with flywheel
« on: June 13, 2013, 04:35:21 PM »
Hi all
I think I've never seen a simple solution like this on internet. A flywheel attached thru chain and sprockets helps to overcome the problem of fluctuation of momentum. Semicircle shape of arms ensure a smooth movement of weights.
You start this spinning the flywheel.  :D
What do you think?

All the best

P.S.
I am sorry Mr Bessler I have revealed your secret, but it's about the time...  ;D ;)

Vidar... would you like to come and say that this kind of wheel will never work?
 

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Online gyulasun

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Re: simple overbalanced wheel with flywheel
« Reply #1 on: June 14, 2013, 12:22:21 AM »
Hi Rafael,

Indeed an interesting setup,  and the first question from me is: if you remove the flywheel, then the rest of the setup can keep up rotation? (albeit with fluctuations)   If not, then it will come to a stop with the flywheel too, after a certain time.
I like the ramp (indicated in red) which does not let the balls roll fully away from the shaft so the arm of the balls force is shortened.
Have you already managed to test partly or fully this setup?

Thanks,  Gyula

Offline totoalas

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Re: simple overbalanced wheel with flywheel
« Reply #2 on: June 14, 2013, 12:51:19 AM »
Hi
Just imagining this in a horizontal view
the flywheel / rotor is connected to the bigger wheel and the outer has magnet also on same rotation ????
 

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Re: simple overbalanced wheel with flywheel
« Reply #2 on: June 14, 2013, 12:51:19 AM »
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Offline Rafael Ti

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Re: simple overbalanced wheel with flywheel
« Reply #3 on: June 14, 2013, 04:20:33 AM »
Hi Rafael,
Indeed an interesting setup,  and the first question from me is: if you remove the flywheel, then the rest of the setup can keep up rotation? (albeit with fluctuations)   If not, then it will come to a stop with the flywheel too, after a certain time.
I like the ramp (indicated in red) which does not let the balls roll fully away from the shaft so the arm of the balls force is shortened.
Thanks,  Gyula
Thank you Gyula. Answering your first question: when you remove the flywheel the setup will keep rotation if the wheel itself is heavy enough comparing to the mass of weights. And the mass of wheel is located as far from the center as possible. The separate flywheel in picture is symbolic only. We know that the wheel itself (green colored parts) can act as a flywheel. Do we need flywheel? Of course yes! As lower number of weights as higher level of fluctuation. And the fluctuation of momentum kills rotation at some point.
The shape of arms/chambers and ramp is a separate thing. There is lots of possibilities here.

Offline MileHigh

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Re: simple overbalanced wheel with flywheel
« Reply #4 on: June 14, 2013, 06:21:45 AM »
The "secret" to these Bessler wheel things is to keep your eye on the ball.  You see that the ball can move to the far right side of the wheel and you think that will give you the torque to keep the wheel turning.

The problem is that you are looking at the wrong thing.  The only thing that you should be looking at is the vertical up-down displacement of the ball.  Any horizontal left-right displacement of the ball as the wheel turns can be ignored.  The reason that it can be ignored is that when the ball moves horizontally its gravitational potential energy does not change.  A "gravity wheel" is supposed to be based on gaining gravitational energy, and by definition that is a function of the up/down displacement of the ball.

So, now look at the diagram and only follow the up/down displacement of the ball.  You can see that as the wheel turns the upward displacement of the ball is equal to the downward displacement of the ball.  Thus the "net energy gain" of the moving ball is zero and the wheel won't work.

That might be upsetting to some, but the real thing here is to try to understand that you can safely ignore the left-right movement of the ball or balls, and just look at the up-down movement.  This is a leap of imagination and understanding and insight that you must take to understand why no Bessler wheels will ever work, no matter how simple or complicated and intricate the design may be.

Just look at any Bessler wheel design and follow the up-down movement of the ball or balls and ignore the left-right movement.  You will notice that no matter what, the upwards displacement is equal to the downwards displacement for a net energy gain of zero.

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Re: simple overbalanced wheel with flywheel
« Reply #4 on: June 14, 2013, 06:21:45 AM »
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Online gyulasun

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Re: simple overbalanced wheel with flywheel
« Reply #5 on: June 14, 2013, 03:07:46 PM »
Hi MileHigh,

I edited Rafael's drawing a little and tilted the wheel clockwise by 5° from its horizontal position to indicate mainly the balls position in that moment.  (My editing is not complete because the ramp (red line) should have been also displaced to the right a little, it is not rotating with the wheel of course.)

Well, because you completely disregard the horizontal distances of the balls from the center point C, so you completely neglect the rotational torque ball B2 exerts on the whole wheel via the distance (radius of the wheel).  In this respect, in this moments of the rotation of the wheel, the operation of a simple lever, a seesaw is to be considered ( http://avstop.com/ac/apgeneral/machines.html ).
I agree that balls B3 and B4 should be lifted up of course and in order to get a continuos rotation,  the distance and the tilting of the ramp should be very carefully chosen (if possible of course) so that the rotational torque of ball B2 should overcome any other counter torque of balls B3 and B4.
This is mainly what webby also hinted at.

Gyula

Offline mondrasek

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Re: simple overbalanced wheel with flywheel
« Reply #6 on: June 14, 2013, 05:55:18 PM »
The bottom part with the ramp reminds me very much of the Sjack Abeling wheel.  In analyzing that it was learned that the inward movement of the weights due to the ramp is not free.  It is the motion of the wheel that pushes the weight against the ramp.  The ramp then gives its required counterforce.  The result is that the torque on the wheel due to B3 is larger than the value from its weight x the distance to the axle.  If you draw a force diagram of the B3 properly it needs to be made with vectors that are normal to the ramp and the wheel, none of which are 90 degrees at that location.
 
An interesting thought experiment is to imagine the wheel running CCW.  Why wouldn't it be able to do that?  If you try this you may see how B3 is acting like a cylindrical pin being pushed between the blades of a pair of scissor to force them open.  It may make it easier to understand how the resultant forces (torques) due to B3 can be larger than just its weight x distance to the axle.
 
M.

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Re: simple overbalanced wheel with flywheel
« Reply #6 on: June 14, 2013, 05:55:18 PM »
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Online gyulasun

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Re: simple overbalanced wheel with flywheel
« Reply #7 on: June 14, 2013, 06:26:06 PM »
Hi Mondrasek,

I understand and agree with you and at the moment, to counter the extra force you refer to as the counterforce of the ramp, I think the only hope to counter that force is to use a higher diameter wheel so that the torque effect of the weight of B2 on the shaft could be higher with its higher distance from the shaft.  Also the tilting angle of the ramp obviously greatly influences its counter force to the weights.  This is one reason I asked Rafael whether he has already done some tests on this setup.

rgds, Gyula

Offline MileHigh

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Re: simple overbalanced wheel with flywheel
« Reply #8 on: June 15, 2013, 12:40:41 AM »
Gentlemen:

I agree that I am completely disregarding the horizontal distances.  If you can envision what I am saying, it's all about looking at this rotating system from an energy perspective.  The only true energy dynamics are the vertical displacement of the balls.  You can ignore the rotational inertia of the big wheel and the balls themselves.  What do you end up seeing?   Balls that move down one unit and then must be lifted back up one unit for a net energy change of zero.  In the final analysis that's all that counts.  Many times in problems like this you can disregard all of the complicated dynamics and just look at the energy to find the solution to your problem.  For example, a coil and a capacitor form an LC resonator.  If the coil has one amp of current flowing through it what is the peak capacitor voltage?  Do you have to work out the differential equations and convert the solution into a time-based or angle-based algebraic equation?  The answer is no you don't have to, you just have to calculate the energy in the coil and then calculate the required capacitor voltage to give you the same energy.

So, people look at the diagram and they see how the ball B2 (thanks Gyula for the diagram) can give you more clockwise torque than the other balls.  The problem is they don't look any further than that.  As the wheel starts to turn the clockwise torque from B2 will decrease while there is counter-clockwise torque from B3 and B4.   When does the clockwise toque from B2 drop to the point when it is less than the counter-clockwise torque from B3 and B4?   What angle does that happen at?  Nobody knows do they?  As B4 starts to go up the red ramp you can see how it's being "pinched" between two surfaces that are trying to make it spin in opposite directions.  What are the two coefficients of friction between the ball and the two surfaces?  Which way does the ball turn when it goes up the red ramp?  How much energy is lost as the ball goes up the red ramp?

Let's look at the problem another way.  All four balls do exactly the same motion.  Therefore you should be able to analyze one ball and see if it adds or decreases the rotational energy of the big wheel.  If we say B2 starts at zero degrees, then we know from zero to 90 degrees B2 applies torque to the wheel.  At 90 degrees the torque becomes zero.  So, who can generate the function "Torque_on_Wheel = Ball_weight x Some_function_of_angle."   Who can then integrate on that function from zero to 90 degrees to get the increase in big wheel energy over the first 90 degrees?

Certainly the integration from 90 degrees to 180 degrees will give you a net reduction in the rotational energy of the big wheel.  Anybody want to try to generate that function?  That one is a doozie because of the extra friction energy drain from going up the ramp.

That's most of the calculation, but there is still another 180 degrees to integrate on before we get the final final big wheel energy after rotating through a single revolution with a single ball on the track.

So it's apparent to me that many of you can only see the B2 ball in the start position as per Gyula's diagram and you think wow a Bessler wheel!!!  Well you can't do that.   You need to integrate over the full 360 degrees and generate a "Torque = some_function_of_angle" equation to do that.  That is a really hard thing to do and you have to start playing with "dTheta" differentials.

We haven't even discussed the moment of inertia of the ball itself and how that would factor into everything.

So I choose to go the "smart" route and just look at the ball gravitational energy analysis.  We know that is only a function of up-down and nothing else.  When you talk gravitational energy, it's like the higher you go the higher the voltage.  The lower you go the lower the voltage.  So "up-down" is like you are in a voltage gradient.

MileHigh

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Re: simple overbalanced wheel with flywheel
« Reply #8 on: June 15, 2013, 12:40:41 AM »
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Offline Ghost

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Re: simple overbalanced wheel with flywheel
« Reply #9 on: June 15, 2013, 12:48:30 AM »

Offline Rafael Ti

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Re: simple overbalanced wheel with flywheel
« Reply #10 on: June 15, 2013, 01:31:58 AM »
This is one reason I asked Rafael whether he has already done some tests on this setup.
No, I haven't. I'am a bit bussy in ongoing project with Rberval balance as a base. And.. I have no flywheel at the moment  :)
However I'd like to thank you guys for good comments. I appreciate.
Now I wonder if semicircle shape of arms/chambers gives any advantage over straight arms... with this setup we can close the ramp to the center of wheel I think. This is illustrated in picture below. See this shape of ramp now (red color); wherever arm crosses the ramp the angle between tangent of ramp an tangent of arm is about 90'. Does it make any gain except of smooth running balls? Don't know, but it shows how we can play with shape of arm and ramp.
For testing I propose even simpler wheel with 2 weights and a ramp... and flywheel as rim..

All the best

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Re: simple overbalanced wheel with flywheel
« Reply #10 on: June 15, 2013, 01:31:58 AM »
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Offline markdansie

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Re: simple overbalanced wheel with flywheel
« Reply #11 on: June 15, 2013, 06:38:03 AM »
@MileHigh
your explanations not only make sense but are brilliantly explained.
Being the simpleton I am i have relied on "A rock only falls once"
Kind Regards
Mark

Offline TinselKoala

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Re: simple overbalanced wheel with flywheel
« Reply #12 on: June 15, 2013, 11:14:57 PM »
or a 90 lever and a ramp and a curve mounted on one of the legs for the lever.

MH,

The math *is* a real doozie,, and the more complicated the interactions the worse it gets,,

I can build easier than do the math,, and in building, you sometimes find things that the math does not show,, like force over distance can be done a few strange ways :)

And when those "strange ways" are looked at correctly, the math always _does_ show what is happening. Can you provide a case that demonstrates otherwise?
The engineering disciplines of Statics and Dynamics, usually combined into "engineering mechanics", have pretty well got the issues of force and distance completely covered. May I suggest that you look up Beer and Johnston Mechanics of Materials on the internet? You will find, I think, that the math _does_ show everything of interest and significance in the mechanics of constructions made of materials that we find here on this green Earth.

Offline Low-Q

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Re: simple overbalanced wheel with flywheel
« Reply #13 on: June 16, 2013, 10:11:02 PM »
Webby,


The main reason why these machines never works is because one design them using basic physics every time. Math and experiments prooves that the weights in a gravity wheel gain and loose energy according to their altitude. It does not matter if the weights are going in a circular, or any other type of manner. The potential energy that is stored in a weight does not depend on HOW it got up there. The energy that is released from a weight on its way down are not depended on HOW it goes down.


You can transport a 1 N weight from the ground to the moon and back to a table 1 meter higher than the ground. The weight has gained only 1 Joule of potential energy.


The weight that is a part of a gravity wheel will by the designs limitations ALLWAYS conserve its energy at any time.


If you want to build a working gravity machine, you must make it open looped so energy input is possible. Or make a wind mill. They works fine.


Vidar

Offline Dusty

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Re: simple overbalanced wheel with flywheel
« Reply #14 on: June 16, 2013, 11:08:33 PM »
This same basic idea of a wheel was talked about here: http://www.overunity.com/7150/sjack-abeling-gravity-wheel-and-the-worlds-first-weight-power-plant/#.Ub4n_xZ8bfc


I built several wheels and others also built test models and none of them worked.


Dusty

 

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